It seems to me, in EVERY THREAD I read that SNL responds to, he ALWAYS says that BS are wrong for NOT JUMPING WHEN WS SPOUSE SAY'S JUMP! Then he uses the "well maybe I am OVER-ANALYZING AGAIN, BECAUSE I DO THAT" when people disagree with him! When ever a BS comes here, his first thing is "well, when my wife reacted angrily because I admitted I slept with OW, or was angry when I threw her to the ground, or was angry because I once again told her of my love for OW, or how W is not as good as BS"! This BU$$SH*& just makes me want to SPIT IN SNL's face! SNL has been coming here for quite some time and I have held my tongue all this time because some think that his insight is valuable, and I will admit, every now and then he does have some intelligent and moral response by saying "Your H is treating you with disrespect, blah, blah, blah". But then when he get's on his tangent of "WELL MB SAYS BS SHOULD DO WHATEVER WS WANT AND NOT QUESTION IT IF IT MAKES WS HAPPY" or "I ANALYZE" crap it sounds like more crap that he makes himself believe to condone his own emotional abuse to his wife! Like tonight when he told Love On the Rox....."There is no reason you could not have left the store right then, he even went and got in line..but no, not you, you know you are right, and the heck with how/what your H thinks....well he got the message loud and clear. The best (IMO) way to deal with your ws about this stuff, is to listen to us, don't argue with us, do what we want....and then discuss it later (if possible). Often what is part of our problem with you is we do not feel our feelings count, sounds trivial, and of course you say yes they do..... but, (then you add the but) in milliond different ways you hedge, and make it about you. Ya know rox, maybe he really wasn't worried about you starting something, maybe he just didn't want to see her...ya know? Just cause he says stug do not assume he is done. Frankly I am surprised at your actions, and the subsequent "needless to say fought for 2 hours, ruined day", what is with that, all that was worth more than just saying ok dear, and leaveing the darn store? I don't get it, are you trying to find common ground, and make Love bank deposits, or just trying to beat your husband into submission? It takes two to argue, the only reason your day was ruined is cause that is what you wanted, no one made you do this.<BR>Not trying to make you feel bad, your husband may very well be a certifiable jerk, but your behaviour was pretty unhelpful, why don't you just dump him and put him out of his misery."<P>IS THIS STUFF FOR REAL! SNL, it seems to me that the only thing you think MB is for, is so that the BS can LAY DOWN AND PLAY BLIND, DUMB and DEAF for the WS not matter what the WS does or says! Sure, u will throw in the "MAYBE I AM IN FOG", or "I AM ANALYZING AGAIN", but you are really pushing it! What I see in you is a NARCISSISTIC, SELFISH, SELF-LOVING BOY who is using the MB Principles to excuse his childish actions to his wife, then blame her when she doesn't jump high enough to your liking. I think you are so self-absorbed that you don't see how you live for this drama that you created, it seems you want to see how much you wife will change/or take from you before she knocks you upside the head and tells you to get a clue and to get out, to see how much of herself she will give up to please you, it's a game to you and if she doesn't play the way you want then she isn't really a MB type wife in your eyes! And for some strange feeling, I think if she actually did tell you to get lost, i think you would be so dumbfounded and so lost you wouldn't know what to do because it is HIGHLY DOUBTFUL that you would actually want to leave especially if OW wasn't there to pick up where your wife left off. You MENTALLY and VERBALLY ABUSE your wife by telling her to leave you and find someone else to make her happy because she actually showed an upset emotion to a WS! But you know know that is not what she wants to do, but ofcourse you have to torture her with your abuse to put her in her place right? HINT!! BS HAVE FEELINGS, NEEDS, EMOTIONS, WANT RESPECT, LOVE just like WS DO!

is this just a vent? Or did you want a response? Venting is ok with me, just asking. If you want any response could you maybe ask a specific question? We all have that thing that we do, and what I do is think and contemplate alot. I do know everyone has feelings, and is worthy of basic human respect, I really do.

If you saw a question mark then it was a question.

Hmm.<P>I have been playing with the Scrabble tiles here. I keep rearranging them. But no matter how hard I try, I can't get "betrayed spouse" to come out "doormat".<P>"Brays to speed" almost works ... but have an "e" left over.<P>"But soar eye sped" does work.<P>And, in the immortal words of Willie Shakespeare, via Hamlet: To be or not to be, that is the question.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Ok I have to jump in on this one for 2 reasons<BR>1) because my name in particular was brought up<BR>and <BR>2) because of my reply to his remark on my thread (So much for a good day).<P>my reply to him on that thread is as follows<P>SNL<BR>[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>I think I don't need this crap, and being single looks like a better way to go. What I decided is for now (and maybe forever) I am tired of being argued with, and I refuse to live that way anymore. So when she is plan a'ing and showing me her changes (stopping selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts etc.) I feel a little encouragement...then one of these things happen and I wonder if it is all just a big game, nothing is changing.</B><BR> <BR>Sounds to me like your still in a fog or waffling you seem to be more upset that your wife aint kissing your butt than anything else. You friend are the WS reguardless of your reason you messed up and if you wife wasnt meeting your needs at the time YOU should have talked to her rather than found some type of "affection" elsewhere. <BR><B><BR>There is no reason you could not have left the store right then, he even went and got in line..but no, not you, you know you are right, </B><P>if he had told me WHy he wanted to leave i would have left gladly but instead he snapped at me and said were leaving.<BR>no reason not even being nice about it<BR><B><BR>The best (IMO) way to deal with your ws about this stuff, is to listen to us, don't argue with us, do what we want....and then discuss it later (if possible). </B><P>youre kidding right?..... this goes back to the comment i made about butt kissing.<BR>dont arue with us do what we want..... is this not saying let me continue to play foggies and/or have an affair? So i put my foot down on some issues<P><B>Ya know rox, maybe he really wasn't worried about you starting something, maybe he just didn't want to see her...ya know? Just cause he says stug do not assume he is done.</B><BR>hes done hes filing harassment charges on her<BR><B><BR>Frankly I am surprised at your actions, and the subsequent "needless to say fought for 2 hours, ruined day", what is with that, </B><P>read my post Everything is my fault<P>It takes two to argue, the only reason your day was ruined is cause that is what you wanted, no one made you do this. after he promised me a romantic dinner he goes right home?......... he was driving HE ruined the day <BR><B><BR>Not trying to make you feel bad, your husband may very well be a certifiable jerk, but your behaviour was pretty unhelpful, why don't you just dump him and put him out of his misery. </B><BR>just because you and my H as WS's take your marriage vows lightly doesnt mean that i do I am FIGHTING for my marriage he had the option to leave... he chose to stay.<P><BR>sorry SnL your post Fogged or waffling which ever it is pi$$ed me off<BR>have a good day<P><BR>Ok in all honesty i figured id get flamed for my reply to SnL because reguardless of his (to put it nicely) demented opinions.... people seem to request his opinions.<BR>however that was achance i took.<BR>later in the same thread i postes something about everyone having opinions or whatnot cause my thread exploded between SnL and Alberta.<P>Although i have to agree with Trying2 110% <BR>as well as STL scrabble words also.<P>It is apparent to me fter readinbg SnL's pots as well as thinkiers that SnL is DEEP IN DA FOGGIES. Im confuses as to why everyone would an opinion from someone that delusional. there are plenty of mal WS's here that can give GREAT answers to any BS question H2Y HH chaz as well as others. <P>i give Snl credit though at least hes got balls even if they are fogged ones. He speaks his mind reguardless on how altered it is at the moment. and for the most part he takes what we dish out to him. except he tries to justify himself by over analysing or whatever...... SnL Really lets call it what it is........ its the FOG. and you seem pretty content there for now.. this is called denial..... as for your wife.. i commend her for putting up with all your crap... frankly i wouldnt of I'd of had to draw the line somewhere... prolly at the F-ing kids things would opened my eyes enough to through your a$$ out. if not before then.<P>YOU snL need to realize what jewel you have in Thinker.... how many women do you really think would let you cheat on her degrade her and the family and then come here to a sancuary for people who WANT to get help for their dysfunctional marriages .. just to embarass her here by your O so Negative posts?.... you know i dont think theres one post her you made about your wife without negativity.... yeah you said <B><BR>So when she is plan a'ing and showing me her changes (stopping selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts etc.) I feel a little encouragement.</B><P>oh we cant forget the <B>BUTS</B><P><B>then one of these things happen and I wonder if it is all just a big game, nothing is changing.</B><P><BR>this falls into the crap of you wanting you butt kissed.... <BR>my personal aspect on this is YOU should be the one kissing butt...YOu are the one that screwed up not her.<P><BR>AHHHHHHHHH feels so good to vent and get this off my chest<P>good luck to you SnL but let me say your marraige aint going anywhere until YOU start making some changes<P><BR>

Thank-you rox for your thoughts, I fully understand (intellectually) the concept of fog, but it is frustrating trying to determine whether oneself is thinking clearly or not. So I do value feedback here, no matter how ....um..... vigorously given. I do not defend my more obvious misbehaviour, I am not that far...demented. I say what I have done and feel so the bs can adjust their strategies accordingly (should not be considered advice, or poor snl, I expect to be severely chastised for the behaviour). I see (at this point) you are more into the 2x4 up to side of head approach, and maybe that is the "best" for your marriage, I dunno, but I expect it isn't. <P>You seem to be in general of the mindset the ws should just get with it, wake up and smell the roses, and that if we don't it must be some deliberate, diabolical strategy. It isn't, it is just the outcome of the marital dynamics at the time, the bs can choose to reduce tension, or increase tension....it is generally true that reducing tension works best....right? Maybe with your actions with H in the store were the best for your marriage at the time, not for me to say, but IMO there were more effective strategies. I get the impression you are wore out, and as a last gasp effort are trying to "beat" your H into submission (so to speak). My wife could try that, and be without a H, won't be effective with me, that is what she has used for 23 years, and why I don't want to be married to her anymore. I don't have to be married, I am perfectly content to let this marriage go, I do not want it, I already made peace with that before I cvontinued on with ow. I am guilty of not telling w first, and for that I must make ammends, one of which is to give her another chance as she asked. And end the A (which we did), and participate in counselling (which I am), and tear down my emotional defenses to consider a new marriage (which I am). Now I have to try and understand why I have the feelings I do, why I get so angry, why about alot of things, that is not enhanced if my wife is on my case....ya know? Good luck rox, tell your H you are sorry about the argument and you would like that romantic dinner today...what have ya got to lose?

In SnL's defense, he has come A LONG WAY over these past few months. It amazes me sometimes.<P>He still has a long way to go and he does tend to over-analyze and word things in a way that gets under alot of people's skin, but, he is trying, and for that I commend him...<P>It hurts me to read alot of the things he has to say, but in the end, at least one thing usually helps me somewhat, and I just ignore the rest...<P>His wife is very nice and I commend her sometimes, especially if she is in the habit of reading his posts. I can't see how she can feel anything other than pain and resentment from them. If I read those words from my H, I would just curl up and die. <P>I feel that as the months progress and SnL and Thinker's marriage improves dramatically from the Harley principles, we will see SnL's posts change more and more, possibly even see some of that remorse and regret many months from now. Perhaps, it is my prediction anyway...<P>If you think his posts are upsetting now, you should go back and read some of his posts from a few months ago. LOL. <P>P.S. I overanalyze too much too. It is in the blood of an engineer...<P>HbH

Another BS throwing in her 2 cents....... SNL, you know me so here it comes.............<P>Listen you all, we all have our opinions. This is not a scientific problem. The issues discussed here deal with people from all different backgrounds, situations, beliefs and walks of life. Oh yea different personalities also. <P>SNL & I have personally gone head to head on many issues. Read back to when he first started posting. Thinker and I have not always agreed either. Yet I am able to have good discussions with them both. I am the BS who has taken a lot of BS from way too many people. Ya know what I come away with? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I take the good and leave the bad. <P>My take is that SNL and Thinker have come a long way. Many of us have also. If this place helps them in their marriage and along the way they learn to become stronger and better persons, mates, families, lovers and friends, then I am happy to have been a part of it. <P>SNL is a man who speaks his mind. There is nothing wrong with that. Maybe some would like him to speak it with less words, or in a more subdued manner, whatever.......regardless of what we want, what SNL & Thinker need more than our wants is for their marriage to be restored and their love to be rekindled. If any of us can help along the way fine. If we don't then we don't have to read it. <P>I have read many posts here. Some I really don't agree with, sometimes I post and other times I don't. They touch my lives if I allow it. If they become abusive and rude, then I may say something but if it is a personal vent, I try to understand. <P>So far I have seen SNL's post as pretty much him giving his opinion. Ok, I give mine and been flamed a few times. I survived. I have to survive. My H's A is more of a threat to my personal survival than all the flame that can be thrown against me from here. If I come and share my opinion and vent, I hope all will receive it as it was sent. If I try to help and it is not accepted, ok, then I go on. If you don't want to read my post, then ok I still go on. <P>I hope all of this makes sense. Trying2_4give, your thoughts and opinion are well taken. I used to get mad at SNL at the beginning you know why? Because he reminded me of my H and his stinkin' attitude. I even told SNL that. <P>It really hurt to hear another WS talk about how much they loved the OP. Really. But in reality, the WS was learning what love really meant. We hear this painful stuff because that is what is being said by WS's all over the world!!!! And it hurts!!!! If a WS analyzes it is because they are trying to either justify or understand why this is happening to them. Confusing? Yes. For who? For everyone. Are all WSs bad for trying to understand? No. It may just take them a little longer. Remember they are the ones in the fire and trying to find the extingusher to put out the flame of guilt. Hard to do when you are in pain and those flame keep burning you. It is hard to move toward the one who has the extinguisher to help the WS out of the fire. <P>SNL appears to be trying, his raw and honest thoughts are hard to take at times, but they have opened up our eyes to see the side, just as others have done (STL, Sheryl, etc.). <P>JMHO,<BR>L. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited August 26, 2001).]

I agree, SnL has contributed alot to this Forum, and I have benefit from his words and learned things about my H's behavior that I wouldn't have otherwise. I appreciate his help. I also sense he does experience remorse and demonstrates compassion and empathy for his wife. Three very good traits for a potential successful recovery.<P>BUT .. you knew there'd be a "but" hey SnL ... there are times I read his posts and I could swear that he had just had contact with the OW. I'm sure I could be wrong, yet my instincts tell me different. No offense SnL.<P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 26, 2001).]

DITTO... Orchid. I mean EXACTLY... I could just cut and paste what she said. I ain't always so good at expresin myself as she is. tee-hee.... <P>yes, yes, yes.. I admire snl SO much for being here, and sticking his neck out a bit to take a few tomatoes. Whether we like it or not, his opinions, feeling, and phoolosophies , are the same as our WS's. And he is really here to learn, and to make ev ery effort to put his marriage on the right track. I wish my H would come here and do the same. When and if he does, I hope he will feel free to express himself, and recieve honest, caring, constructive feedback.<P>All peolpe have a basic need for acceptance and belonging. Acceptance for who we are - where we are - not matter how foggy or clear we happen to be. We are all here to learn and support each other in our own situations.

Hey Hurtbyhubby,<P>I'm an engineer also. What discipline of engineer are you, just curious.<P>Jo

Hey Jo!! I am an Electrical and Computer engineer. Currently working on Mass Storage devices in the Hardware Engineering field...<P>And you?<P>HbH

Computer Science, and now thru my current job have learned massive amounts of electrical engineering as well. I work for Intel, our Campus is all R & D of 64 bit workstations/servers. I'm a 64 bit BIOS/Firmware engineer, very low level stuff. I love it!<P>Us Female engineers are Wickedly Cool! You agree??? lol<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 27, 2001).]

I studied engineering at U of Mich...left as a senior just didn't like the academic side, and went into contracting. So maybe that is why you analytical female types give me a little break....I can't help analyzing things to death, is in the blood. HbH drives me nuts with all her analyzing, partly cause I follow it, nodding my head yes yes, I see that, and maybe...then I kinda shake myself and say no no you are talking yourself into taking all the responsibility...is something I have done most of my life until I kinda self-destructed I guess. Gotta listen to emotions too, but is hard to do right. I finally did listen to my emotions and well....you know. My oldest daughter is an IOE engineer (grad 12/00 from U of Mich), and #2 daughter is a sophmore engineer undergrad. I think zorweb is an engineer too. Actually I have been kinda surprised how many lady engineers are here, there are more too. Maybe someone should do an occupation thread.

SnL, I drive YOU nuts?? <P>I'm going to start that occupation thread... Nothing else to do tonight and I am not tired. H said he is coming over tomorrow to talk so I'm fretting over that one.<P>Yes, Jo. US Female engineers are cool!! I was one of about 4 hardware engineers in my entire company for the longest time. Now I think we are up to about 15...<P>Hey, I think we officially took over this thread on behalf of SnL. Hey, at least you won't be pond scum for a little while longer... <P>HbH

Dear trying,<BR>I totally went off on SnL about a week ago... Don't know if anyone noticed as my "going off" is pretty tame. Still, it's good to see that I'm not the only one who reached a point of not being able to take any more and had to let him know it...<P>This post would be really funny if it wasn't so sad. I'm feelin' ya, trying... But hey, we're all here to save our marriages as jdmac1 pointed out when he apologized to SnL & others, for going off last week too.<P>This is redundant, but as said before, there are going to be opinions that we agree with and some we disagree with but we cannot afford to allow them to upset us further than we may already be feeling.<P>One good thing that I can say about SnL and I have said it before is that he takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin' AND posting. I think he's hilarious. He's not going anywhere, which leads me also to believe that he & thinker will save their marriage.<P>I don't believe he will necessarily stick around defending WSs and their positions forever. One day, his marriage will turn that corner and he will sound more "for" his marriage rather than defending why WSs wander, much like trueheart. You can just tell that trueheart has "arrived" by his keyboard tone of voice... SnL loves to point out BSs love busters, AS IF they don't know it already... I mean, give us a gag-me break already... but it's okay. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. Some are entitled to be wrong! (joke)<P>So, I know how you feel, but try to keep an open mind and above all keep praying. You must admit there is more hope for a WSs marriage like SnL rather than one who wants nothing to do with MB, right? I have learned stuff from SnL, I really have, but I think I have been irritated more times than I have been enlightened. So hang in there with SnL. One day, he'll say something really brief and to the point and you'll have that lightbulb moment and learn to appreciate him as many of us have come to, particularly me. <P>I shared one of SnL's posts with my H and to my amazement, my H took it from me and to this day, H keeps it in his nightstand drawer!!!!!!!! God will use anybody to speak words of wisdom into our lives, but we must remain open and teachable and try not to shoot the messenger.<P>Here's a poem about A FRIEND<P>A friend is one to whom<BR>You may pour out<BR>All of the contents of your heart,<BR>Chaff and grain together.<BR>Knowing that<BR>The gentlest of hands<BR>Will take and sift it<BR>Keep what is worth keeping<BR>And...<BR>With a breath of kindness<BR>Blow the rest away.

Oh NO you don't....trying to trick me into this again just kidding.<P> Seriously, this is the kind of things you say SNL that rubs us BS the wrong way;<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and why I don't want to be married to her anymore. I don't have to be married, I am perfectly content to let this marriage go, I do not want it, I already made peace with that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> I honestly do not believe this is true. Perhaps it is and we BS are really in the fog also. But surely you would not want to stick around a Marriage Building site if it is the total truth. All I would suggest is that you tone down those types of comments. <P> I DO agree with others(and no, I am not an engineer so it isn't anything brother/sisterhood)SNL does hold some good insights to glean from. Take from him what you can use and discard the rest. I do not believe he has ever asked for more than that. If that.<P> Hope that's not too annoying for you WSs <P> jd<P> <p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited August 27, 2001).]

ROFL......see SnL.....there is hope for you yet.<P>As long as you stay here and follow the principals, you may one day join the ranks of the converted WS's who no longer claim to love the OP, have no contact, and truly and totally regrets everything they have ever done to harm their BS. Then all will love you! <P>Until then you are just an annoying worm brained fog head.<BR>Duhhhh....didn't you know that?<P>And BTDT...you're killing me! You used the ENLIGHTENED word that I got reamed for last week! Would you BS's please make up your minds?? Is that a word only BS's are allowed to use? LOLOLOLOL<P>(don't blast me, I'm just playing around!)<p>[This message has been edited by Lexxxy (edited August 27, 2001).]

Hi lexxy, I tried to defend you about the enlightened word, I knew what you meant I am glad you are here (not glad your life is a wreck, wish you were happy). I don't mind being encouraged, and I affect most people the same way (polarized mixture of like/dislike, but after awhile the calls for lynching usually die down). I think you have the same philosophic concerns I do re life, the ones that occur to us philosophic/analalytic/loyal/dutiful (what a combination huh) types when we find ourselves in this place in our lives. All I know for sure is I am not going back. <P>lexxy...ROFL......see SnL.....there is hope for you yet.<P>snl...As long as we are breathing, and have not shut off our brains (called an open mind) there is hope for us all (bs and ws), even you. Now if we only knew exactly what that hope looks like.<P>lexxy...As long as you stay here and follow the principals, you may one day join the ranks of the converted WS's who no longer claim to love the OP, have no contact, and truly and totally regrets everything they have ever done to harm their BS. Then all will love you!<P>snl...Is possible, and both gives me hope, and terrifies me. And I know you know exactly what that means. But I doubt I will ever regret, my dna would have to be disassembled and reassembled for that to happen, I would not be me, I am pragmatic to the core of my being. If I do get where MB wants me to be, it will only be because I did fall in love with another, the 2 are one. <P>lexxy...Until then you are just an annoying worm brained fog head. Duhhhh....didn't you know that?<P>snl...Psst...lean close, don't tell anyone. I have been an annoying worm brained foghead all my life, and accused of same many times. I am used to it, and have learned to function with my disability. I am thinking of turning this board into the ADA (Anericans with disabilities act) police for abuse and harrassment, but I just can't decide, maybe tomorrow.<P>Lexxy...(don't blast me, I'm just playing around!)<P>snl...You can poke fun at me anytime (so can anyone else)...I refrain from doing so quite a bit (due to the sensitive issues, and very real pain of so many), but one of my foundational beliefs of life is that nothing is ever to serious (even life and death issues) that we cannot poke fun at our own preoccupation with ourselves, even if it is black humor. Somehow focusing solely on how awful we feel, how angst ridden we are, how our lives are over, our childrens lives are over, how we gotta just get it all right or the universe as we know it will end, can in itself drive us over the edge methinks. It is (IMO) a survival strategy to not only think I will not take this crap anymore, and go charging up the hill.... but also to realize humor helps keep life in perspective, and that surviving is really more about attitude than anything else.<P>So glad you are still here, plz don't leave, there is a real need for the full range of dialog, and I think everyone realizes that. Even the interactions as we occassionally get trashed are learning experiences, is the same stuff that happens everyday in marriages. But here, there is just enough distance, and realization that even though you are feeling/responding like you would with spouse, they really aren't your spouse. IMO that is a valuable commodity, and adds realism, and balance to just an academic discussion, or a woe is me support board. This is real life here, the good the bad the ugly, and the out to lunch. If one cannot handle this board, or a given poster, that should give pause to reflect on themself, and how they deal with life. Where else can one get the raw emotional feedback that is essential to a reality check? Not in any book, not by editing your comments so as not to offend. IMO all that should be asked for is a honest snapshot of where you are on a given post, and some modicum of decorum and public sensibility. I am pretty sure the bs know the ws here are just speaking their minds, and that is why there is such vigorous response at times, if they thought we were just messing with them, they would just blow us off...so all in all, the nature of the forum is that as an unrepentant ws, you will be leaned on hard, but then again, that is how it works in real life too. The ws who just want people to suck up to them can go to gloryb.com I guess. If my marriage is gonna end, I need for it to be because I fought for it as hard as possible, and it didn't work, not cause I ran away. I thought I had, but I have to be honest and realize I had not, so here I am, and here I will stay until the fat lady (er...person) sings.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 27, 2001).]

Yeah but, Lexxxy, come on...<BR>I don't remember SnL announcing that his sole purpose for posting was to enlighten BSs. Maybe he did before, if so, then I missed it... Oh well... <P>SnL, you kinda sorta give the appearance of wanting to learn how to fight for your marriage tho, I think? I hope??? But basically, I don't believe you enjoy being married. You told us why. Said you got married to rescue & save your wife from herself, and not out of love and passion. That doesn't sound very hopeful to me. Even God doesn't cross our 'want to.' We are free to make all sorts of mistakes and live with them however we see fit.<P>It's tough to be "fighting" for something you don't really want! Especially when you don't even think you can win! Or that you could care less so you're just going through the motions. Instead, it turns into an endurance contest instead of a good team battle. You just stand there and wait til the other person passes out from exhaustion, beating the air... <P>That's why we need faith. The fight of faith is a good fight and we have never heard of a 'good fight' describing one that was lost. You can't lose with God on your side. Sooo, if you really want to win, get God on your side!<P>SnL you HAVE been more irritating than anything--in case Lexxxy missed that part of my sentence where the word enlightened was used? I wasn't conflicted nor confused when I said that. I never said I had a problem with being enlightened, but we all should consider our sources, right? <P>I'm trying to be fair and open while defending marriage and trying to protect mine and keep it healthy. You must admit that if *I* want to learn how to have a happy marriage, I might not get the best advice from someone who is miserable being married. That's all I am trying to say.<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited August 28, 2001).]