Okay. So my H didn't like any of the flights I found for him to go to VA and decided he's going next week instead, only now he says: <P>H: Have you decided about the seperation yet? <BR>Me: Yes, I already told you. I'm getting a seperation.<BR>H: Well, I need to know what you decide because if you decide to seperate then I might as well save my money and not waste it going to VA.<BR>Me: What are you talking about? The two are unrelated. I need to get a seperation because I can't live in limboland anymore and I keep getting hurt, if you choose to move to VA, that's your choice.<BR>H: Well, that's YOUR view. I see the two as being related and I need to know your decision so I won't waste my $$ going down to VA if you decide to seperate.<BR>Me: Okay, you can think what you want, but from my point of view, the two are not related. I don't see what my getting a seperation has to do with your decision to move to VA or work on the marriage. We'll talk tonight. <BR>(but, I really know what he's going to say to try and manipulate me: If I get a seperation then that means it's over between us, blah, blah, he's not going to try. My answer: Okay, that's your choice, but that's not the reason I'm filing for seperation, if I wanted that, I would file for divorce).<P>Then he gets to the house tonight (after making the kids wait an hour for him to show up - oh boy, THAT was fun for me..."where's daddy", "I want my daddy", hit, punch, complain, sit by the door, etc. - he wasn't really late, just never said when he was coming...):<BR> <BR>H: I want to propose a deal. <BR>Me: Um. Okay, but I'm not really interested in deals.<BR>H: Well, I just think I can do some things that will make you happy.<BR>Me: You mean you want to use POJA and negotiate?<BR>H: Yes.<BR>Me: Okay, then I'm interested. Let's talk when you get back.<P>But, no matter what he says, my answer will be:<BR>Prove it, prove it, prove it. And until he does, I'm still going ahead with the seperation...<P>Did I do good?<BR>HbH

Sounds good to me, this stuff starts getting so obvious when you finally get it.....right? Reminds me of when the lighbulb went off, and I finally got the point of what calculus is about (after 3 semesters). Is nothing more that the doggone area under a curve (the volumne if 3d)...duh. Was all monkey see monkey do up till then.<P>And doesn't it feel good hbh (albeit a little scarey etc.), to know what YOU are doing for a change. Is how the ws feels win they have decided, and will not go back to the old marriage, are done. But then the bs offers to change, and a whole nother set of emotions take over, but that is another story. Knowing what you are going to do, and being committed to it, is a powerful feeling.

Yeah, it does feel good to finally have a plan. <P>Just like to turn your "how WS feels" to how SOME WS feel... <P>I'm about ready to ring his neck. He doesn't have the kids back yet, it's a school night and they were supposed to be in bed an hour ago... No LB's, no LB's, no LB's...<P>I can just IMAGINE how horrendous all 3 of them are being. An hour past all their bedtimes, all excited to finally see their dad, one of them is sick... Oh yeah, he's having fun alright. Not. I'm sure they're overwhelming the pants off of him and he'll be in a bad mood when he gets back...<P>Looks like we won't get a chance to talk tonight anyway cuz' it is so late... Oh well.<P>Thanks for the response. Now I just have to keep to my plan... (hard).<P>HbH

Okay. I'm really upset now. H got back really late and we managed to talk for 15 minutes. I couldn't believe it!!<P>He turned EVERYTHING around on me again. You guys know how hard I tried to say exactly what I meant, not be controlling, not give demands, etc. I mean, I practiced my speech for DAYS with BrambleRose, trying to get it right and making sure I was in no way/shape/form being controlling/manipulative.<P>He called me DAM* controlling again!!!! I could have spit nails. Now I have been going out of my dam* way to not be controlling. I said it all the right way, I did it all the right way. I WAS NOT CONTROLLING!! I wrote exactly how I was in my other posts. I told him I was getting a seperation for ME, for ME!! He says I'm just trying to force him to quit school and move to VA!!!<P>AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH<P>How many freakin' times do I have to say that it's not about that and I don't care what he does?????<P>He gets all mad saying he's been trying so hard and now I'm going to get lawyers involved and if I do then that's it, it's over. I'm just like, why? Why does it have to be like that? I'm getting a seperation because I can't live in limbo anymore and I'm sick of getting hurt. If he's chosen to commit to me and he's actually serious and is going to SHOW ME he is serious, then there's no need to go through with the seperation at that point. But, until that time, I cannot live like this anymore. I accept that he wants to go figure things out, that's fine, but I need to go and live my own life. He's just like, "oh, I'm not serious now.." I'm like, NO!!! You keep changing your mind all the time. I tried to give examples but he would have none of it.<P>We fought over nothing. So stupid. We had done POJA last week and made decisions based on that. He turned it all around on me and is like "so what do I have to give you so that you'll LET me go to school." I'm like, it's not like that (we had a yes/maybe on the list so I told him we are supposed to see what it would take to turn my maybe into a yes). But, he didn't DO that, he just went off and made decisions on his own, that were KINDA like what we decided, but they didn't take my feelings into account. He said "he was doing what we decided".<P>AAAAAGGGGGHHH<P>I am so mad right now. I SAW him turn it around in front of my eyes. I know for sure what I said this time, I KNOW what I was saying and I took PARTICULAR precautions to make sure I was NOT being controlling or trying to get my way... He is wrong this time. The other times, I didn't know for sure, BUT I KNOW THIS TIME.<P>He threatened, he used disrespectful judgments, the whole nine yards...<P>I think I did pretty good under the circumstances, but he just TWISTED, and TWISTED. And I know what I said and what I meant and it was NOT what he said. And I made DAM* sure that I was clear so that he could NOT twist it around and he did it anyway. The things he said were DIRECTLY opposite of the things I had told him. No questioning it. <P>He does not listen to me. He hears what he wants to hear. I am so mad at him right now.<P>I mean, NOW he's suddenly serious about our relationship and I'm just supposed to KNOW that. And I'm supposed to believe him when he says if he sees OW, he's just going to say HI and nothing else, and all this other crap. I tell him SHOW ME, PROVE IT to me. <P>OH, and then here's the kicker. He says, oh, when you do stuff like this it's what makes me want to not work it out. "Stuff like what?" I say. "Try to control my life and make me do things." <P>AAAAAAARRRRRGGHHHHHH<P>He's going to drive me crazy. I AM NOT LIKE THAT!! I AM NOT LIKE THAT!!! I'M NOT, I'M NOT, I'M NOT. I KNOW I'M NOT. I could not have worded anything better than the way I did the last few days. I couldn't. It was my best. The best I could do. I WAS NOT CONTROLLING. <P>He is using that against me to try and get me to stop the seperation... PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME I AM RIGHT, HERE!!<P>I can never NOT be controlling because my husband will always turn everything I say/do into my trying to control. I mean the stuff he says I'm trying to get him to do, I don't even really want, so why would I try to control him to get it???<P>I'm so mad. We need to have these discussions at counseling or with a 3rd party there so that he can't turn my words around on him... That's it. Otherwise, I get no where...<P>HbH

Dear HbH,<P>You are right. But to your H your are not right. At this moment probably nothing you do will be right. This is frustrating honey, I know. What do you do? <P>Hug your babies. Give them all your kisses and love. Your H will not accept much from you right now. All the love you have for him is viewed as 'control'. Go figure. No don't try, it will give you a headache. Too much fogese concentration gives you a headache. <P>I don't have much to tell you other than get some rest. Not sure if you can so do the cyber hug and know that your friends out here are thinking of you with pleasant thoughts of you and your children. As for your H, I will send a call to the LB Fairie. <P>L.

Thanks Orchid. I needed that, oh so bad.<P>It's so frustrating. I mean, does he REALLY not get it, or does he just want to turn it into something else so he can IGNORE it??<P>We need to talk in counseling so the counselor can tell him what an a**hole he is and how he keeps twisting my words around.<P>I know this time. Everything is clear. There is no doubt and no confusion, I did not do the things he accused me of. Not this time (maybe not before either...).<P>HbH

Not to worry hbh, you have a plan, just stick to it, that's the beauty of plans. He can do what he wants, somethings he knows will work (for you) and some things he knows will not...his choice, he can do as he pleases, you have let him go. As predictable, (I was just sitting here waiting for this kind of post from you, was so predictable), the only difference now in your dysfunctional dance with H, is you are no longer dancing. You set your boundaries hbh, he doesn't like em, big wup. I actually did a little of this with my w, the (ho hum) I will just quit now if you don't do what I want.....is so pathetic when ws does such things. We know what is fair and what isn't, all you have done is finally showed him where the rubber meets the road, put up or shut up, you have done your a stuff, and now is his turn...this is just the beginning, their will be much more crying foul, and gnashing of teeth, until he finally realizes the old techniques don't work anymore. He will either have an epipphany, or he will let you go, but at least he will finally be real.<BR>btw...if who said what gets too out of hand, just refuse to have any more conversations with him that are not video or audio taped.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 28, 2001).]

Thanks SnL... That makes me feel alot better.<P>We talked this morning. He stopped twisting things around at least and we really talked. He's mad because it seems to him that after all this time of him not wanting me, now that he has changed his mind and wants to work things out, I'm "getting back at him". I just say I'm sorry he feels that way, but I give up. I can't do this anymore. I do this for ME, not him. If he decides he wants to work it out, is serious, and SHOWS me, then that's wonderful. I would really like that, but I'm not living in limbo anymore...<P>Alot of what he said this morning makes sense. He says he's been controlled for so long that it is hard for him to stop believing that I have some ulterior motive or that I'm not just trying to get my way. I say, at some point, you're just going to have to believe. Yes, I will still do it, but I'M TRYING not to. If you still feel controlled by something I do, just try to realize it was not my intent, holding it in and getting all mad after the fact won't help. <P>He says he wants to go to joint counseling, but he gets frustrated by the things I say and the way I feel. I tell him THAT'S THE WAY I FEEL. I can't change it, you say things that upset me too, but they are the way you feel, I can't change that either...<P>Then, came the talking, and the words. I'm gonna do this, and this, and this. I'm like, okay, prove it to me. You need to show me because I don't believe you.<P>I need to go post something on the recovery board about POJA, cuz' obviously I'm doing something wrong. I say it's negotiating, he says it's just getting what I want and that I can't compromise...<P>I told him how disrespected I felt and he just apologized and said he didn't realize he was doing that... <P>Oh yeah, and this is the kicker. He keeps asking me, "what can I do to prove it?" Yet, if I talk about what I want or need, then it gets turned around on me and he says I am DEMANDING these things of him (like when we tried to do POJA and we started talking about what it would take to turn my maybe into a yes). I'm like, they are not demands, these are suggestions on things you can do to regain my trust and improve our marriage. You can also go online, talk to the Harley's, read SAA, or talk to others and get examples as well. You don't HAVE to do them, it's up to you. <P>Then he says "fine, I don't have to do them, but if I want to work on the marriage, then I do, and it has to be your way and you're demanding it of me." I said "Well, I guess you're sort of right. If you want to work on the marriage, then YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. I'm sorry you see it as my DEMANDS, but I see it as you asking and me giving you examples of what you can do for me to regain trust."<P>See how it gets twisted on me? I don't know how to respond to that...<P>I still have not stopped the seperation from going through... I know he thinks our talk today means I am not getting one. We have to talk again tomorrow...<P>HbH<P><BR>

HbH --<BR>Timing Timing Timing Timing Timing Timing.<P>K -- why did you have to have your separation talk one week before his trip to VA? Why did it have to be now? Couldn't you have waited to give him your separation speech when he returned? You've been living like this how long? Was another week just gonna kill ya? I think he's right that you used the timing of this to try to control his actions about his trip to VA. <P>If he is viewing this move to VA as a way to work on and save your marriage, and now one week before he starts this process you tell him you've decided on a separation, I don't blame him one bit for chucking the whole idea of VA.<P>You've given him absolutely no positive feedback for the effort he's making (going to VA) instead, you let him know that your mind is already made up. In his mind those two events are interdependent. If you've decided to separate, why should he bother going to VA???<P>I know you've been working really hard on not being controlling -- but just like you need him to prove it prove it prove it, HE NEEDS YOU TO PROVE YOURSELF TOO.<P>And this whole dynamic doesn't really work in your favor. I personally think you would have been better off drawing your line in the sand after his return and you heard more of his thoughts about moving. <P>My 2 cents.<P>

lexxy, don't know how much you been following hbh saga, but her ws makes ws look bad (IMO), is playing her like a ping pong ball. He has way wore out his allotment of patience and understanding. The va thing is a big deal cause is about moving there for school etc. Due to HIS waffling hbh has no real sense of what to do, cause she cannot trust him, but the school decisions still must be made. Personally I think this ws is in need of a severe reality check, that he can not count on hbh doing all the relationship work any longer. All he has to do is agree to no contact, adhere to whatever extraordinary precautions hbh feels she needs (and that is her call), and poja with her. I think hbh would do just about anything he wants, move, stay, stand on her head....if he makes any kind of real committment....but he won't, and he is an unfair communicator....the best outcome would be for him to also participate in harley counselling and be held accountable, but he won't. I broke 1/2 dozen no contact agreements (was only ea by then) in the struggle to find balance. And I was very annoyed my w kept bugging me, instead of letting me take care of this in my own time. But I was taking care of it, it was being resolved, I knew no contact had to happen...I am not so sure her husband is doing that, so seperation is hbh only option.

I know the VA thing was about school -- and I thought it was a real positive because it would remove him from contact with OM at current school.<P>I was just wondering about the timing, and if it might not have been a better decision to wait until after the VA trip<BR>to reveal separation plans.<P>That way there is no way for him to entertwine the events.

HbH,<P>How are you doing today?<P>L.

Hi Lexxy, thanks for the comments!! I would agree wholeheartedly with you if that is what happened. Here's some more details so you can see where I'm coming from:<P>5 weeks ago I told H I wanted a seperation, he said to give him some time to figure things out. Fine, I did. H came back and told me he was committed to me, HE suggested that he was going to move to VA THIS FALL, not attend school, and that I could go down and meet him when things were settled up here. Fine, I agreed - no seperation, I would give him a chance.<P>He then changed his mind, but didn't tell me. Instead, just told me he didn't know what he wanted and was going to school here (where OW is), whether I liked it or not.<P>Oops. Draw the line. No way, I'm not going to take that. No more, not after everything I've been through. No more OW in my life. My line.<P>After my decision, but before I told him, he decided that he was going to VA to CHECK THINGS OUT in a week's time, so that we can now move in January, IF he decides he's going to work on our marriage and be committed to me (OW is only around for 4 more months and is moving to Colorado permanently in January). <P>Again, No way, I will not be used by him for another 4 months... Not gonna happen.<P>Then, I told him I was getting a seperation because I was no living in limbo anymore. I'm done. That's when he was talking about canceling the trip and everything else in my previous posts. His trip, honestly had nothing to do with my decision. But, I understand your point, he does view the trip as a way to work on the marriage SOMEDAY, IN THE FUTURE, after he decides whatever it is he has to decide. So, after your post, and after he's explained more to me, I see how he would link the two together...<P>Just wanted to clear things up so you can see where I was coming from. <P>_____________<P>Okay, that was what I was going to post yesterday, but never got around to it (left the screen up and found it this morning...).<P>HbH

Thanks for the backup SnL!!<P>Lexxy, I appreciate your comments, and believe me, I wonder the same thing sometimes, but I have to stop this madness. I have to. The plans to go to VA in the fall were over and done with when I made my choice to seperate. New plans to move in January popped up in my H's head just before I told him I had filed for seperation, but is not something I had agreed to. I'm not overly thrilled about moving to VA in January because that means I still have four more months of dealing with OW...<P>Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.<P>So, Orchid, you wanted to know how I am doing today... I am trying not to get excited.<P>My H and I talked yesterday some more and he said alot of positive things AGAIN. And I just kept saying SHOW ME, PROVE IT TO ME, etc. We talked about the seperation and how IF the things he tells me are true, then I don't want a seperation, and I would like to stop it, but I don't feel right about doing it right now and I'm not going to let him force me into it, If I do it it'll be because I want to do it... (he was going on about how he'd be so angry if he was served at work - cuz he won't give me his address has to be at work - and how it won't help things between us). We agreed that I would have the lawyer send the paperwork to the sherriff's office so he could pick it up there, he didn't complain too much about that...<P>He invited me to go along on his "new" trip to VA next week (apparently he's still going even though I filed...). We leave Thursday and get back Sunday. We are going to check out colleges and the areas to see if we like it. OD is coming along to go to Watercountry with us on Saturday. No little kids, so it should be relaxing (they are the toughest).<P>We talked alot yesterday about OW and the things he could do for me to help me put closure to her in my life (and make me feel comfortable with him going to school there). I told him not to do them if he felt I was forcing him to, I want him to do it because he wants to, not because I am demanding it. This is what I asked for:<BR>-A no contact letter (I may be asking for too much here. He ended it with her, but in a very disrespectful way to me, and it left room for them to get back together I think. I'm not adamant about this, just told him it would mean alot to me...)<BR>-change phone #<BR>-block her email<BR>-him spending all his free time with family (he offered this one the other day - not my idea, but sounded good to me)<P>We are supposed to talk tonight again... We shall see. <P>I had a horrible anxiety attack in the middle of the night last night (about OW and his school). I left him 3 voicemails, I shouldn't have done that. I wasn't mean or anything, but it really makes him feel bad to see me like that. I told him that they are one of the reasons I want to get a seperation, so that I can go on with my life and not have to worry about OW anymore. If he's gone, so is she. I know that's stupid (and told him), but it's one of the reasons. He called when he got out of work and listened to me blab on and said I could call during the day today again if I had another one... I could tell he was upset though, he said we would talk tonight.<P>She is not out of my life until he makes her out of my life, and I told him that...<P>I hope we don't fight again tonight, I have to make sure I don't talk about OW and hound him about things. Just let him handle it and see what happens... I can't (and don't want to) force him to do anything.<P>Thanks for listening. <BR>HbH

HBH,<BR>I dont have time to read alot of your posts proir to this to stir my memory. But if he says you are controling him by telling him what you need, how about simply asking him... what is your plan for recovery? How do you plan to make me feel safethat OW is out of our lives and rebuild trust. put it all on him. <P>Seems like his previous plan was not acceptable... wasnt it sometihng like you make him jealous and he pretend hes not coming back but really is? If you cant live with his plan, then try and negotiate.<BR>Lora

Hi Lora! Glad to hear from you!! Been reading some of your posts, sorry to hear the mess you are in now... <P>This is what I'm a tryin' to do. Believe me, I am not outwardly controlling, oh boy, if it were that simple... Being outwardly controlling is pretty easy to fix (I was that way many years ago and it wasn't that hard to change that, it was pretty obvious even to me). But, alas, I am unintentionally controlling now and it's taken quite a bit to try and work through this. Oh, believe me, I do ASK, I don't tell. I use "I statements" and honestly, what I say and the way I say it to my spouse would be okay for ABOUT 80-90% of the BS's out there. Unfortunately, given my history of being controlling, as Lexxy says, I have to also PROVE that I am NOT trying to control things, and so, alas, I am sort in the place where I need to just shutup and do nothing and see what happens... (because anything ELSE is me trying to control things). You can't say/do the right thing when you are in this place, just shutup, work on myself, and see what happens... It's weird.<P>My H has had about 4-5 plans over the past 2 months that, in all actually, were just plain silly and would never work (the jealousy one just being one of the 5, it's actually quite funny the things that he has come up with that he thinks will work...HAVE YOU SEEN ANY OF THESE that I posted? - might make a good laugh...). <P>Right now, we are WORKING towards making a plan for recovery. This is the stage I am in. If he commits, and wants to work on the marriage, and is SERIOUS this time and isn't going to change his mind in another week because of one mood swing or another, then that is where we are.<P>We're starting joint counseling in a week in a half and we've both been going to individual counseling (he for about 4 weeks). He and I are supposed to talk tonight about what our plan is for dealing with OW and getting her out of my life... Believe me, I am putting that ALL on him. I suggested some stuff he can do, but it's all him now. If he does nothing, fine, if he chooses to actually do some things and try to rebuild my trust, that's fine too. <P>I'm happy either way right now. I have let go.<P>HbH