Some of you have followed my story thus far....I'm still struggling.<P>I just can't understand why I should intentionally kill my feelings for the OW...and at the same time try to create or recreate the feelings I had or should have for my W.<P>If folks had that much control over their feelings...well this life would be like a neo-fascist state. I never felt comfortable with the manipulation of feelings - mine or anyone else's---that is just evil.<P>So, I am supposed to go against how I feel for the OW (hmmmm nobody told me that when I had intense feelings for my W before we were married)...and I am supposed to fake it with my W until when....until the feelings come back? what if they never return? what if the desire to be with the OW never goes away?<P>Please, if all you're going to do is bash on me...please don't respond....I am staying with my W and we are working on the marriage - counseling, et al.----I am just REALLY struggling with the "why"s and the "how"s OK?---so please, constructive criticism only.<P>Thanks<BR><p>[This message has been edited by hopelessromantic (edited August 28, 2001).]

No bashing here. Just wanted to let you know that my H was also "in deep" with the OW, my best friend. They had about a 3 month affair. It resulted in us being separated for about 9 months. He was very much infatuated with her, claimed it was love. Almost lost his business over her, willing to leave his family, religion, etc. Well, it didn't work out. Now he looks back and swears he can't believe what he did or how he felt. Knows not it wasn't love but said NOBODY could convince him of that at the time. Told me he didn't love me, never had, etc. Now he said he was in love with me all along but couldn't see his way out of the fog. He wanted to blame me for all of his problems and for 'keeping them apart.'<P>I believe you DO have feelings for this person, but I also think that way down deep you still love your spouse. It will take time, hard work and counseling to find that love again. Time is probably the most important factor. <P>It has been a hard thing to endure, but it was definitely worth it. Don't give up. If you truly want your wife, stop contact with OP. I found that counseling and prayer works wonders! Good luck to you.

OK, I'm not SnL, but let me offer an answer or two... from the BS side. I think you really want to try to work on this, but you're way too hung up on some issues that should be secondary. This isn't logistics, it's love.<P>As so aptly said in all those kung fu movies-- "Grasshopper, you must choose." You can't, in our society, have both. If it weren't a problem in your marriage, you wouldn't be here.<P>If you are not willing to commit totally to TRYING to create or recreate feeling for your W, without the presence of OW, you are simply being cruel to her. Horribly cruel. She will likely never be the same again. Neither will you. You must build a new relationship together. Just the two of you.<P>Try to step back, just for a minute, and put yourself in your W's shoes. <P>Can you do that? If you can't, then you are still "in the fog". If you can, then the answer is more evident. I can't answer it for you... only you can. <P>If you haven't reatd the Harley's books, do so immediately. There is much said about "faking it" with the W until the feelings come back. It's not easy for either "side" to do. But it works. As long as you allow your feelings for the OW to fill some of your emotional needs, you create an atmosphere in which your wife CAN'T fill them--no way no how.<P>This is the time for you to be introspective. What needs did OW fill that W didn't? Communicate this to her. Allow her the opportunity to be that person who does.<P>If your W still loves you and wants to stay married, then she is a very forgiving woman. She is also now probably much stronger than she was before. This site may desensitize you to the fact that many (most?) women will NOT FORGIVE a wandering H. Look at the love that is evident from her mere continnued presence in the relationship. That should count for something. The OW should be questioning whether or not the same thing might happen to her in a few years, when the "newness" and excitement wears off.<P>One at a time. The new rule in my house... for everyone in the family... clean up one mess before you start another. (This applies to paragraph 4 of your post.-- P.S. you're forgetting the adultery part here)<P>No bashing intended. You're looking for help in your struggle. Take this as a friendly kick in the rear.<BR>

Hi HR<P>I agree, that you do have feelings for ow. How is it, that ow makes you feel when you are with her? Is it the same way you felt for your wife, when you had intense feelings for her? You're right, folks don't have control over their feelings. But, feelings can and do change. No?<P>I'm sorry I don't know your story. How long have you been married? Was it a mostly,(not always) good marriage? Were you happy? My H had an affair and he also told me that he didn't love me anymore and had strong feelings for ow. I have done quite a bit of research regarding affairs. Do you know anything about affairs?<P>So glad, to hear that you are seeking counselling. It is very possible that your marriage can be renewed and better than ever.<P>hoplessromantic, I am glad that you found this website <p>[This message has been edited by Patient1 (edited August 28, 2001).]

Dear Hopelessromantic:<P>I'm sure S&L will have some words for you but for now I just wanted to tell you that we know how hard this is for you...having to give up something that you love is always hard.<P>Why do you have to kill your feeling for OW? Because that feeling you have for OW is so intense right now...be it right or wrong...that it obliterates any chance you might have to reconnect with your wife...that feeling cannot exist for two people at the same time...so if you truly want to stay together with you wife then it has to die.<P>And you said yourself...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, I am supposed to go against how I feel for the OW (hmmmm nobody told me that when I had intense feelings for my W before we were married)...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>....at one time you had these same feelings for your wife...only they got dulled alittle by the wear and tear of everyday life...maybe they just need a little polishing to get them back again.<P>And did you ever analysis why are this feelings are so intense...haven't you been in love several times in your life and most of those relationships died a natural death...why is this so different...because OW is supplying you with something you've apparently been missing in your marriage for a long time and like a man wandering in the desert and finding an oasis....you don't want to ever leave and have to wander through the desert again. But your wife is an oasis too, but you've let her get covered up with sand and inattention and you can no longer find her anymore...unless you're willing to look. <P>Faye<BR>

hopelessromantic,<P>I am just learning this too. I have been 'just learning' this for what seems like forever. I want you to know that I understand what you are saying. I really do.<P>Feelings are important, I know they mean so very much to me. BUT, I also know that feelings can not lead us. They are part of our person, who we are, and they serve to remind us that we are alive. But they can sway our judgement.<P>I am in a similar situation. I am a WS. I relatively recently let go of the OM - not out of hate or disgust, but simply because it was it was wrong...Not to say that I didn't 'know' it was wrong all along, but that, finally, my selfishness is giving way to truth.<P>Most of the time (though people who know me may agrue) I might say that I am a relatively sane person. Please allow me to share my thoughts in the hopes it may lend some help to you - or at least, be another point of view for you to consider.<P>The best way for me to look at my situation is this: It is a train. (a word-picture I once heard) The engine is Truth - it has the power - is in control of the movement of the rest of the train - it is the REALITY of my life. The next car is Action. Action must follow the truth. One just follows the other, that is, unless I want to De-rail. <P>If we base anything on falsehood, it is going to de-rail at some point - there is a 'break' in the track. <P>Anyway, the final car in the train is the caboose (sp?) and that is my 'feelings.' Feelings follow Truth and Action.<P>Sometimes even when we don't want to 'get up for work' we do, because the truth is, we have to. So we ACT on it, and we then eventually see the benefit - or FEEL the result of having gone to work - the income we enjoy.<P>I don't believe any will agrue, that when faced with the 'truth' of a given situation, 'feelings' we may have had are likely to change. Feelings are just that kind of thing. Time, and more information can influence them.<P>I think when folks here talk about 'filling love banks' and waiting until feelings 'return,' they are not talking about 'denying' what they feel. Not at all. Feelings are strong. I know from experience that they are a powerful force. If I said I had no feelings for the OM in my situation, I would be lying. They are there. YET...I don't think the MB principles are asking anyone to 'deny' their feelings. (and this goes for BS as well as WS's) This isn't about pretending. It is about creating ROOM for change. <P>If we plant a plant but keep it in our basement, it will not grow. MB principles are based on the idea that we set aside the 'distractions' of our hearts, and focus on what we pledged. What we vowed. And allow room for those 'feelings' to resurface. For misunderstandings to unravel or be sorted out.<P>If two people HONESTLY put everything into the relationship's repair, but it does not suceed? Well, who are any of us to say 'DO NOT' let go? But each one knows in their hearts if they did or did not really try. I think the idea is, simply, to TRY.<P>It is hard for me to imagine that love grown once into a beautiful flower... given proper care and attention, could not grow again. It just stands to reason that it can. Give it a chance.<P>I love the OM I was involved with. Forgive me for stating it right out - it is the truth. But after a long time, I have realized that I love him enough, to let him go. I look for no pats on the back for this...believe me, I know I have been not more than a thief in his life, and really much worse. Not to mention what I have done to my H and his life.<P>My hope is for the OM to have TRUE - unashamed happiness with his wife again. In my view, I would be a fool to think I could know and love him better than his W ..... A complete fool.<P>I set him free in all hopes and prayers that he rebuild what I know he had had before. <P>There is much shame in my heart that I write all this. There would be no way for me to express it clearly here. I would have wished I was a better person than to cause the pain I have in others lives..but I can not change it now. I can only change who I am from now on.<P>And I choose, like you can also do, to focus my mind, life, and heart back to the place I gave it to so completely at the begining of this journey of 'marriage.' Back to the husband who is mine to grow with. To see if I can find a way to help repair the damage in my H's heart and life - and through that my own.<P>I hope the best for you Hoplessromantic. Your Romance can be a real asset to you. You can gain it back, if you are willing to try. <P>I apologize if my late night ramblings made little sense, as I am just spilling a lot out onto the 'board' tonight.<P>best to you.<P>-dawnn<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Dawnn (edited August 29, 2001).]

You cannot kill feelings of love, don't even try, nor do the Harley's ask you too. You should look hard and deep, maybe your feelings weren't love, maybe were self-serving, infatuation, even lust....but if they were real, the kind that lead to bonding and marriage, then simply accept that you have a deep attachment to another human being...and then focus on what to do about it.<P>The first thing you should realize is that you can love more than one human being, and love deeply, but differently... is not a compeitition, is not one or the other, (although it sounds like it sometimes when people chastise you). The second thing you should realize is that you cannot have a marital type relationship with more than one woman, you do not have the resources (emotional, physical, time) to do so, and in trying (assuming both women would even put up with it) you will simply fail at both, and reveal yourself for a self-serving loser, not worthy of either one. <P>At this point one starts looking very hard for answers, what is love, what is duty (vows), what is psychologically healthy, what is marriage supposed to feel like, to look like, is marriage/love really just a decision, emotions don't mean anything, is happy a four letter word.... who do you want to grow old with, wake up next too, take care of, be taken care by....these questions cannot be fully answered by the mind, or the heart, it takes both...and is very hard. Affairs come in many flavors, most can be dismissed, and dealt with cause they were not based on real feeling or love.....those that are, are the hardest and most dangerous to everyones (ws, w/h, op) well-being, cause they are real....very real.<P>As you correctly (IMO) realized, if love can just be killed, or is a meaningless feeling, then why not just kill the love you felt for current spouse, or choose not to love them cause someone else is better at meeting your en, and they yours. Just pay off the current spouse (it is just a contract after all, just a decision) and they will soon find another to fill your slot, cause afterall makes no difference, you just love whoever you are married too...right? This is of course insane. And in fact is not what MB says. They acknowledge that not every mating of 2 people is psychologically sound....what they (and the psychological community is starting to say everywhere) is that most people marry someone they are compatible with to some extent, and that marital harmony (and love) is in large part about certain principles....basically treating your spouse with protection and care, and meeting each others EN. They flat out say they can do nothing for marriages where one person has a personality disorder, such people cannot maintain a functional marital relationship. You can choose (usually for religious type reasons) to try and love em anyways, rehabilitate em, but you usually just get hurt, and hurt badly, as do any children unfortunate enough to be born to such a union. But assuming both folks are stable, do care about each other, and are motivated to do the work of learning/applying the MB principles, they claim passionate love will return, and the marriage will be restored....but (always a but huh), they cannot gaurantee it, and when pressed (and you can bet I pressed em hard, jennifer in particular) they will acknowledge their is some mysterious chemisty, bonding, thingy no one really understands, and that you may come to be comfortable, have done all the work, be an expert at marriage, but still not choose your current spouse. At which time the two of you can decide whether the marriage of accomodation is satisifactory enough to live your life in, or you can amicably part, both of you prepared to be a far better spouse, and far more astute at picking a new spouse, because of the efforts made. In short, you have nothing to lose, kinda a win-win thingy.<P>Your brain tells you this is all fine and well, makes perfect sense....but your heart, ah your heart...it is screaming at you, do not let this go, do not give up your truelove, be true to her, take care of her...and you are torn, paralyzed, and you do things that you didn't think you were capable of...lies, deceit, and when discovered, hatefullness, uncaring....you just want to jump off a bridge and escape. But alas, you cannot escape, it is not going to be fixed, it is not going to be allrigh...for a very long time....you are a product of your culture, and there is no escape from yourself.<P>So you come to realize something else, if you really love the ow, you must let her go (and she you). You cannot find love, and happiness over the bodies of your spouse(s). If they want to let you go, fine, but rarely do they, instead they want a chance, and you must give it to them, for their sake (to balance the wrong you have committed), and for your sake, if you are ever to be worthy of being loved as an honorable ethical man. You cannot fake this, be outwardly trying, and inwardly conniving, plotting, holding back. You have to give it your all, open the scabbed over wounds, be vulnerable to a change of her heart, and yours. Be accountable, do the work. Tuck the ow away deep in your heart, where love lives for all you love or have loved, dormant, not hated, not killed, just quiet, and a lesson learned. The price of finding love out of order (while married to another) is you must give it up, knowing time and distance may lose her forever, having no gaurantees, maybe losing both women, it is how the books are balanced. If it is to be, it will be, in some unknown way, in some unknown time, you give up the angst, the future, the pain, the fear to God, it is too much for a wo/man to bear alone. You focus on what you can do, what you should do, and then you do it. Eventually you will know for sure who you are, and what is to be, you will look at your spouse with honesty, you will resolve your spitituality, your notion of vows, you will realize whether you are onelflesh or something else, it takes time, if you try to go too fast, you will crash, and not only kill yourself, but a lot of innocent bystanders as well. Many will tell you what you should do....some will say you should do what feels good, that you put in your time, owe nothing, just didn't work out, and that may be true...some will say feelings don't count, you made a promise, you must keep it, perhaps, I dunno.... I will only tell you this, there are no free rides in life, everything has consequences, make sure you are prepared to pay the consequences of your choices, even the ones you may not realize are there, look deep, and walk cautiously my friend, there is a lot at stake.<P>

Hopelessromantic,<P>RE: “I just can't understand why I should intentionally kill my feelings for the OW...”<P>Quite honestly I don’t see why either. If you want to stay in your affair and get a divorce then by all means keep your feelings for the OW. But do your wife a favor, treat her with respect and let her have a divorce with dignity.<P>RE: “ ...and at the same time try to create or recreate the feelings I had or should have for my W.“<P>You need only fall in love with your wife again if you want to save your marriage. <P>This is your choice. It is really not hard to fall in love with a person, just be around them a lot and fill each other’s Ens.<P> I know that some people hate to think that love is simply built that way.. but I believe it is. No one has ever said that you HAVE to do this. The trick is that you cannot keep your marriage and your OW. It is not fair to your wife.<P>RE: “If folks had that much control over their feelings...well this life would be like a neo-fascist state. I never felt comfortable with the manipulation of feelings - mine or anyone else's---that is just evil. “<P>People actually do have a lot of control over their feelings. The MB concepts are not about manipulation. If you don’t want to save your marriage then don’t. If you don’t want to let your wife meet your Ens then don’t. The MB concepts will not work if you do not want to save your marriage because you will purposefully sabotage them on all fronts. If you want to fall in love with your wife again and have her fall in love with you then quite concentrating on what you need. Instead concentrate on what she needs. Do the best Plan A imaginable on her and you will become a better person and the both of you will fall in love again. Twyla has an interesting thread about this. Take a look…. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012029.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/012029.html</A> <P>RE: “So, I am supposed to go against how I feel for the OW (hmmmm nobody told me that when I had intense feelings for my W before we were married)”<P>No one told you to go against your intense feelings for your W before you were married because you were not married to anyone else. You were morally and legally free to pursue another relationship. Now that you are married you are not really free to pursue another relationship.<P>RE: “...and I am supposed to fake it with my W until when....until the feelings come back? what if they never return? what if the desire to be with the OW never goes away? “<P>No, you are not supposed to fake it with your wife. There is a big difference between faking feelings and working on a marriage. <P>If you fake feelings, that is dishonest and your love will never return. If on the other hand you can give you wife a chance and follow the MB concepts your love may very well return.<P>RE: “Please, if all you're going to do is bash on me...please don't respond....I am staying with my W and we are working on the marriage - counseling, et al.----I am just REALLY struggling with the "why"s and the "how"s OK?---so please, constructive criticism only. “<P>It is always good to find someone who can tell us exactly what we want to hear. I am not bashing you. I know that the MB concepts work. But they only work if you believe in them and you want them too. <P>It’s your choice. I for one could care less what you do. But if you do decide to truly work on your marriage, then you have come to the right place. <P>You see here is the problem that people keep warning you about with your relationship with the OM. Statistics are against you. Something like 3% of all relationship that start as affairs last long enough to become successful, long term relationships. One of the problems I see with your situation is that you have not really known this woman long enough to leave your marriage for. If I recall, you’ve known her for a year and have been in an affair with her for 3 months. I would never make a life changing decision of a three-month relationship. It takes at least one year, going through all of the events of a year, to get to know a person. <BR>You say that your wife has never met more then 3 of your Ens. But you married her, she must have been meeting more then that at the time you asked her to marry you. Somehow, over the years the two of you drifted apart. <P>You say she is unemotional and a conflict avoider and that you too are a conflict avoider. You are 50% responsible for the current state of your marriage. You say that you tried to work on the marriage with out her help. But you also say that you are a conflict avoider and backed off easily. You don’t get to have it both ways. It does not sound like either of you really worked on your marriage. You both just let it die a long, slow, torturous death. And now you are blaming each other for being the bad guy. <P>From what I have read of your posts, you, like most of us, do no know how to make a relationship work. No one taught us the class Marriage 101. We are thrown into relationships with no guidance. It is usually our pain and loneliness that attract us to each other. I like to say that our mental illnesses match. There is a lot of truth in this. You again find yourself in a relationship with a woman who is very needy.<P> You are needy. You are meeting each other’s needs. It is this neediness that usually gets us all in trouble. You lack the skills for building a good marriage. That is evident because you do not have a good marriage. (I am not bashing you…. I’ve been there too and it is painful.) Your OW also lacks the skills. What do you think will happen if you and OW were to leave your spouses and get married (or live together)?<BR> <BR>Do you think that you will suddenly, miraculously know that skills for maintaining a love relationship and a marriage? Neither of you will and your marriage will fail. It’s statistically predictable. Most people who are in affairs believe that statistics do not apply to them. But it is not really the statistics that drive this, it is human nature. <P>You say that you had an affair because your wife was not meeting your needs. Well, if I were to speak with her, my bet is that she would say that her needs were not being met either. So why did you have and affair and she did not? (I’m not making a moral judgment here.) I find it curious that in a marriage where things are not going well, when both spouses needs are not met, that one of them decides to have an affair. Why? What makes each spouse make his or her choice? <P>From what I have read of your posts, something shut your wife down emotionally years ago. I wonder what it is. I wish she could come here too and share her side of the story. It would be most interesting.<P>I am not bashing you but I must admit that I do not understand the WS mentality. It is so foreign to me. I have been in the position of being in a marriage in which my Ens were neglected for years and years by a man who had one affair after another. So I now what it is like to got without my EN’s met. It is painful beyond belief. I understand that and I would never advise a person to stay in a marriage where they were being emotionally hurt. But on the other hand, in most marriages that are going down hill, both spouses are not meeting each other’s needs.<P> If both spouses are willing to really give it 100%, the marriage can usually be saved. But this is your choice. This is a marriage building web site people here will advise you to work on your marriage most of the time. There are many of us here who have used the MB concepts to save our marriages (I am remarried.) We know this stuff works if you let it. <P>So… again, the only reason to let go of OW is because you want to work on your marriage. <P><BR>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited August 29, 2001).]

Thanks S&L---I think I'll print out what you wrote and give it to the OW.....<P>Thank you too Zorweb!<P>We both want and believe that someday....maybe a long time away, we will be together---maybe that's just that our feelings for each other are still so intense...but you are right, if that is to be, we have to give that up and let God decide... only by truly working on our own marriages will we know that we did try everything, so that is what we must do---- it ain't gonna be easy. Besides, how could either one of us trust the other in the future if we had not really tried to save our current marriages.<P>I really believe that God will do a miracle...<P>1. He will regenerate our marriages so that we will be fulfilled in them and not in the hope of a future with the OP.<P>or...<P>2. He will create circumstances by which the OW and I can be together in a legitimate way - read: NOT THE CONTINUATION OF THE AFFAIR OR OVER THE WOUNDED BODIES OF OUR SPOUSES... the OW's mother gave her some good advice - we cannot have our happiness that causes pain to our own families.<P>TO ZORWEB---<P>I said that I was a conflict avoider....when I was you are right....we both participated in the demise of our relationship.... it has been in the last 2 years that I have been working (with an advisor/mentor) on losing that trait...I have done very well....much more effective at work and consequently really began to push more in the way of not letting my wife off the hook about working on our relationship..... HONESTLY...I have tried to meet her needs.... expressed my desire to do so, even warned her of the consequences if I couldn't meet hers (or she meeting mine). Every time she just said the same thing.... she didn't like to focus on the "negative things" i.e. what was missing - to her that was destructive thinking - she said everything was OK...you know its as good as its gonna get...I took that as theres nothing more I can do so just accept things the way they are, and if my needs aren't being met, well, I'm just a negative thinker--I need to think like she does and just accept the reality as it is---WELL, I DIDN'T WANT A HALF-ASSED MARRIAGE--I wanted closeness, intimacy, openess, honesty, vulnerability, etc. I knew her ENs weren't being met.... but she wouldn't admit it or give me any help or direction, so what can I do??? I know I wasn't meeting her needs, but I tried everything I could--- I asked her... guessed and acted unilaterally...backed off and gave her space....all didn't work--- how long do I have to keep running into a brick wall before I give up?<P>My W didn't have an A because she was content to have half a marriage----and I wasn't so I wandered away after years of running into that brick wall.<P>Ironically, all those things I wanted from my W I got from the OW...and that is why I know we can have a more healthy relationship than me and my W ever had....<P>I guess my real question is that if me and the OW can have a more fulfilling and healthy relationship - yes I know it will be extremely difficult w// kids, etc... - than why put in all the work to end up with a marriage that can only be a fraction of what I coould have with much less work (not that there wouldn't be any work, but that work would take place in a better environment - openess, intimacy, vulnerability, etc. - and the OW and I would be able to work thru stuff that my W and I can't even scratch the surface of)

Another question...<P>Should I move out from my house - in effect create a Plan A/B since my wife won't? Would that help me wake up and see what I would be giving up....or would it only make it easier for me to break with her down the road?<P>Thanks

hopeless...<P>Bet you a million dollars my heart is in deeper with OW than yours is! <P>Believe me...I hear where you are coming from.<P>To move out of your house now...IMHO...would be the death nail of your marriage. Don't do it.<P>And no matter how hard you pray and wish...God is not interested in you having a fulfilling life with the OW. <P>I know this to be true.<P>Beware of your heart...it is painfully and deceitfully wicked.<P>You have no idea...how acquatinted I am with where you are right now.<P>Your emotions...your mind...your feelings...will continue to bombard your thinking process until you give in to the deepest desires you have.<P>I believe that only salvation you will have, along with God...is that your 'friend' OW, would be in agreement with you that the only thing you can do and survive...is to break off contact and work on your current marriages.<P>I know something inside of you is repulsed by this...but it is truth.<P>I wish...I could offer you another option.<P>But just in case...you find that 'magic wand'...let me know.<P>I spent two years looking for it.<P>blessings....