My H admitted to his "friendship" with the OW. As far as I can tell (and trust me, I have really checked), they have only been talking - mostly on the phone, but at least two secret meetings since he confessed 2 1/2 months ago.<P>All along, he has refused to stop talking to her. I know I can't tell him what to do. However, I have told him from D-day (and continued to stand by the single point)that if they continue to talk, I will divorce him. Is this the wrong stance to take for an effective Plan A? Their converstations started over a year ago and are usually 1-4 hours long!<P>Meanwhile, although their talking is VERY painful to me (it is almost daily - and he believes I do not know), I think their talking will eventually get boring and expose her flaws. <P>It is tough though, since he tells me he has "zero" spark for me. I know I have my **** together - this OW does not. As far as looks go, we are both beautiful and in good shape. My H and I are almost 12 years older than her (she is 20) and we have accomplished much more than she probably ever will. I know my husband knows this - now he is counseling her and trying to get her to set her bar highier. He even said I am a good role model for her! Also, the frequency of the calls has increased - maybe it has to for him to figure this out.<P>What I fear is that he'd like me to accept her back into our lives as a friend. I can't do that. In my opinion, this is an A and I will always feel threatened by her. Do you wait till Plan B to make this point?<P>Any advice? Should I even talk with him regarding the phone calls? I know I can talk calmly, but I know we won't agree. He told me the other day that he never said he'd try to stop calling her. Should I reply (nicely) "I don't mind, call her if you need to" <P>Besides this issue, we have a very loving and supportive relationship. He may not be in love with me right now, but he is always very kind and loving towards me. I don't want that to end - how do I help him find his way home?

smile,<P>dont you see? she NEEDS him, that feeds him makes him feel good, while you walk around with your sh-it together she needs him and his need for admiration which is obviously very high gets the fullfillment of a lifetime!<P>did you used to need him? how did you used to meet that need for him?<P>sorry so brief, in a rush this morning, ill check back with you later.<BR><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

chaz,<BR>yes, you are right. He loves to "save" other women. <P>This has been a big issue (for me) since we first met. When we met, I was 22 and engaged. He kept telling me "DGM" (don't get married). Obviously I broke off the engagement and ended up marrying him when I was 26. <P>I am EXTREMELY independent - but I need him, I want him. Lately he tells me not to be so desperate. I take that as being needy - what do I do? When I get real upset, he tries harder not to call her. But I don't want him to stay because of guilt. I want him to choose me because he wants to be with me! <P>How can I make him realize that I need him without coming across as desparate?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smile:<BR><B>chaz,<BR>yes, you are right. He loves to "save" other women. <P>This has been a big issue (for me) since we first met. When we met, I was 22 and engaged. He kept telling me "DGM" (don't get married). Obviously I broke off the engagement and ended up marrying him when I was 26. <P>I am EXTREMELY independent - but I need him, I want him. Lately he tells me not to be so desperate. I take that as being needy - what do I do? When I get real upset, he tries harder not to call her. But I don't want him to stay because of guilt. I want him to choose me because he wants to be with me! <P>How can I make him realize that I need him without coming across as desparate?</B><P>by having a plan, by deciding to meet his EN's you have to figure out what they are (use the EN questionare if he will do it honestly) and ask him how to meet the need. the need for admiration is the one i think gets met the most by "saving" someone. so what does he see as admiration, how can you in a normal way lay on the admiration? <P>how awful would it be to participate in "Saving his Friend" actively fawn over his attempts to be the saviour of this chick. be an active participant, fullfil the role he presented, be a role model, get in the middle of the relationship and eliminate any mystery for her your husband and you. all in the sprit of saving you know <P>i think you have to have a plan in place one that identifies his needs and actions that you will follow to meet those need, when your meeting them he will respond.<P>what is the behavior he calls desperate? <BR>how would he respond to the question "would you be willing to risk your marriage to have a friendship with another woman?" the point isnt whether your being rational but whether he is protecting his marriage or not. I wonder if he has considered it that way?<P><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

You are good! I know I can help with the "saving". Also, he seems to like to talk about her situation with me. Of course, it is a touchy subject and I have to approach that carefully.<P>He won't fill out the questionaire - he doesn't know if he wants to be married, he feels love for me, but he's not in love with me and thinks that it should be easy. Therefore, the questionaire is unnecessary in his opinion. <P>But despite that, I clearly see what EN's I have not been meeting. Admiration is a BIG one, conversation is another (hence the phone calls). I have been busy living my life and didn't even notice how lonely he's been. She did! Well, I'm tuned in now. <P>As for risking the marriage for a friendship - he says that our issues have nothing to do with the OW and that she was just a trigger. I have told him that I think he is choosing her friendship over our marriage. He doesn't see it that way. He just thinks it is funny that everyone gets so mad that they talk and he is almost doing it in spite.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smile:<BR><B>You are good! I know I can help with the "saving". Also, he seems to like to talk about her situation with me. Of course, it is a touchy subject and I have to approach that carefully.</B><P>??? are you nuts ??? that to me sounds like the perfect in, you get all the dirt on the relationship, he gets your admiration and conversation. +++take the power out of the mystery between them by being involved i am seconding that idea big time now! <P><B>won't fill out the questionaire - he doesn't know if he wants to be married, he feels love for me, but he's not in love with me and thinks that it should be easy. Therefore, the questionaire is unnecessary in his opinion. </B><P>fill it out for him. ask him how you did. <P><B> despite that, I clearly see what EN's I have not been meeting. Admiration is a BIG one, conversation is another (hence the phone calls). I have been busy living my life and didn't even notice how lonely he's been. She did! Well, I'm tuned in now. </B><P>give this a little time, stay on top of the needs, have a plan write it down track it just like you would any project at work you cared about. <P><B>for risking the marriage for a friendship - he says that our issues have nothing to do with the OW and that she was just a trigger. I have told him that I think he is choosing her friendship over our marriage. He doesn't see it that way. He just thinks it is funny that everyone gets so mad that they talk and he is almost doing it in spite.</B><P>then no harm in joining in right? being a positive influence for the young lady yes? why would that bother him? get inside that relationship and know whats going on dont try to squash it from the outside, once inside, id bet that it dies all on its own.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I wouldn't be trying to join in the fun with your H and his girlfriend... Follow that path, and the three of you will end up in bed together.<P>I think this is an issue of boundaries. You can Plan A away, and there is nothing inconsistent between doing a great Plan A and simultaneously setting some boundaries for what you will or will not accept in the marriage.<P>This is what most people (myself included) get wrong in Plan A; they believe that they must not do anything to make the WS unhappy... That is not correct. Plan A is to show your WS that you can make yourself a better person, the kind of person that they would want to be married to... There is nothing wrong and bad about setting a boundary on what you believe to be an inappropriate relationship between your H and his girlfriend... I made the mistake of tolerating my W's continued contact with her OM, thinking I had "no right" to "interfere"... What I should have done is said to her, in a calm and non-judgemental manner, that I do not accept her relationship with OM, and that I want it to stop. That's what I think you should do. No ultimatums, just a statement. Then, if it doesn't stop, you act to enforce the boundary (e.g. "I love you, I want to be married to you, but I cannot accept your contact with GF, and since you have refused to stop it, I will leave, file for divorce, whatever).<P>Good luck,<P>AGG

AGG,<P>Not meaning to bust in on the post, but I found your reply very enlightening and wanted to thank you. I too have been just Plan A'ing and letting H do as he pleases. This has caused me to LB at times since I get so frustrated. Thanks!!<P>Anna

AGG<<P>Sorry, forgot to ask you a question.<P>How long do you let them have time to decide? Should it be immediate or should I give him time (say a week) to decide?<P>Anna

Hi Anna,<P>Glad you found my response useful... I hope you and others can learn from my mistakes... .<P>I don't know if I can tell you how long to wait; that has to be your call. You want it to be enough time for the WS to process and react to your boundary, but not so long as to let them assume that you will never enforce it... I was not good at setting or enforcing boundaries; heck, I thought that the mere fact that I discovered my wife's affair and confronted her would be enough to make her stop... Silly me... .<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>I wouldn't be trying to join in the fun with your H and his girlfriend... Follow that path, and the three of you will end up in bed together.</B><P>what!? how do you jump from being aware and knowing what is going on between your H and some girl he's supposedly helping to ending up in ber together?? now that would be a bounderies issue.<P>let me be more direct. If she has the opportunity to admire her H, participate in conversation with him and at the same time remove the secrecy of the relationship between her H and this girl, in a non combative way then she is way ahead of the game. <P>he maintains its innocent, then why not let the W join the team together they would have a better chance at saving the girl right? look if the relationship is anything more than what he describes, he will resist, thats information. If it is more than he presents and he is too stupid to resist she will get data out of the conversations. if he is smart and invites her in and manages the interaction then the OW gets to see what a wonderful woman the W is and the H looks like an A$$ to her too. <P>doing things that dont go against the grain dont neccessarily make you a patsy, she has an in to his world right now, and there is a real chance by playing this card he gets to feel the discomfort of the truth of his relationship with this other girl. while at the same time Smile here gets to have conversation and time together with her H to build from.<P>the least she gets in information. the upside is huge. <P><B>I think this is an issue of boundaries. You can Plan A away, and there is nothing inconsistent between doing a great Plan A and simultaneously setting some boundaries for what you will or will not accept in the marriage.<P>This is what most people (myself included) get wrong in Plan A; they believe that they must not do anything to make the WS unhappy... That is not correct. Plan A is to show your WS that you can make yourself a better person, the kind of person that they would want to be married to... There is nothing wrong and bad about setting a boundary on what you believe to be an inappropriate relationship between your H and his girlfriend... I made the mistake of tolerating my W's continued contact with her OM, thinking I had "no right" to "interfere"... What I should have done is said to her, in a calm and non-judgemental manner, that I do not accept her relationship with OM, and that I want it to stop. That's what I think you should do.</B><P>heres the difference, she has the opportunity now to uncover the truth of the relationship, at that moment when the H can no longer deny the appropriatness of the "Friendship" she gets to say heres what it takes to stay in the marriage. but why waste the opportunity to win all the way around?<P><B> No ultimatums, just a statement. Then, if it doesn't stop, you act to enforce the boundary (e.g. "I love you, I want to be married to you, but I cannot accept your contact with GF, and since you have refused to stop it, I will leave, file for divorce, whatever).</B><P>??? well thats an ultimatum, a calm one but an ultimatum none the less, having bounderies is all about ultimatums. you will either choose behaviour a and continue in the marriage or else. and honestly theres not a darn thing wrong with that.<P>but she has an excellant opportunity to put her H in a very awkwark place he cannot deny before she lays it on the line.<P><B>Good luck,<P>AGG</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

OK, chaz, let me get my tongue out of my cheek . Honestly, the "end up in bed together" comment was my attempt to take your comment ("be an active participant, fullfil the role he presented, ") to its logical conclusion... Anyway, enough joking.<P>Chaz, I understand what you are suggesting. It does sound very simple and very foolproof. But I frankly have never seen an example on MB of a BS stopping an affair by becoming bosom buddies with both the WS and the OP. At best, the WS and the OP will become annoyed and will make their contact more hidden. Do you really think that they will let Smile become part of their daily 1-4 hour discussions? What do you think they discuss, the weather??<P>Your suggestion makes sense for one purpose only, to get a better handle on the nature of their relationship. But then what? Her H already gave Smile his position (that he feels "nothing" for Smile). Need I venture a guess as to whom he DOES have feelings for???<P>And you are right, boundaries ARE in a way ultimatums, but guess what...? Without boundaries, we'd all be walking around thinking that it's OK for married people to have affairs... I know a lot of WS's on MB would like to convince us that that IS the case, but you won't convince me...<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited August 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>Your suggestion makes sense for one purpose only, to get a better handle on the nature of their relationship.</B><P>More for him than for her though. she knows, hes in denial.<P><B>But then what? Her H already gave Smile his position (that he feels "nothing" for Smile). Need I venture a guess as to whom he DOES have feelings for???</B><P>then he has to face his marriage, then its not some over reaction to an innocent friendship, its a real threat to the marriage that she can then have and appropriate responce to.<P><B>And you are right, boundaries ARE in a way ultimatums, but guess what...? Without boundaries, we'd all be walking around thinking that it's OK for married people to have affairs... I know a lot of WS's on MB would like to convince us that that IS the case, but you won't convince me...</B><P>uh well whatever AGG, i've never seen a WS suggest that, but hey im only here 24/7 lol!<P>AGG<P>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited August 30, 2001).][/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>then he has to face his marriage, then its not some over reaction to an innocent friendship, its a real threat to the marriage that she can then have and appropriate responce to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>uh, isn't that what I said at the outset, that she needs to have an appropriate response? (or do you really think that befriending both parties is the appropriate response?)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Without boundaries, we'd all be walking around thinking that it's OK for married people to have affairs... I know a lot of WS's on MB would like to convince us that that IS the case, but you won't convince me...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>uh well whatever AGG, i've never seen a WS suggest that, but hey im only here 24/7 lol!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yeah well I've been here 24/7 for 16 months, chaz. Why don't you ask our pals Lost-in-Love, Lexxxy, Sad-and-Lonely...they've been quite vocal in defending their affairs...Come to think of it, I think more WS's on MB than not defend their affairs or continued contact (you being a very welcome and pleasant exception ).<P>AGG<P><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited August 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B> (or do you really think that befriending both parties is the appropriate response?)</B><P>i never suggest that she be her friend, just her H's partner in the activities. sure she can be friendly, but make no mistake the plan isnt to be her friend.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ill let the other lie, theres been enough blood shed on that floor.<P>chaz

You guys are making me laugh - and I haven't done that for almost 3 months! <P>Ok - good news, it worked! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!<P>You needn't worry about the boundaries issue, we talked about that too. He knows that it would be nearly impossible for me to ever accept her back into my life. He realizes that I would make an attempt for him, but it would be superficial and awkward (his words). He says that he wouldn't ever ask me to do that. But you are right in bringing up the point of boundaries - I'm sure he would love to have the two of us together in bed, but he knows that will never happen. Good enough.<P>I did learn a lot. Mostly that he's not trying so much to hurt me as to stick to his word. Since our and the OW's friends are all mutual, these friends have been trying to get the OW to stop talking to him. This has really fueled my H's fire for wanting to talk to her. Almost out of spite. <P>It's kind of sick/funny because at first, when I told him "stop talking to her", he said "No!" and he has adamently stood by that. Now, OW's sister told her to stop talking to him or she will disown her - she told my H she needs to think about it. What a diss!<BR>Stupid games - so much at risk!<BR>So, how should I handle the friends? Maybe I should wait and see what she decides. I suspect she will just lie to her sister.<BR>I am just wondering how I get our friends to back off and not always look at us with questioning eyes - "are they ok?"<P>As far as my H goes, I see how this all started by me not meeting my his EN. I have a plan to correct that, I am executing, it is working. I will try filling out the questionaire for him. I know where our marriage needs work.<P>Oh, also, on a good note - when I repeated his "zero spark" quote back to him, he said "well, I wouldn't say zero, and that only accounts for about 10% of what a marriage is anyway". It will return, I just need to stick to the plan.<P>Thank you SO MUCH for all your help!