I noticed he wasn't wearing his ring...still...<P>He said he doesn't intend on putting it on. Why does it hurt so much? He didn't honor it when he wore it...why does such a small symbol hold so much weight?<P>So...I pushed and pushed...I talked all the way to the restaurant...all the while we were eating...<P>I LB'd for the first time in a long time...I knew he wasn't staying because he wanted to...and that's what he said when I pushed about the ring... "What do you think I am staying because I want to?"<P>He said that I was still manipulating him subtly (using the children).<P>I said that I didn't think it mattered what I said and did...that he'd see it as manipulation...he said I was probably right.<P>I ended by talking about our early relationship...that I always knew the 'truth.' I never felt he was proud of me as a woman...he never treated me like a girlfriend or lover...and I pushed and got frustrated because that is all I've ever wanted was someone to love me and take care of me...<P>And no matter what...no matter how he treated me or didn't treat me...that it was my fault because I didn't set boundaries...I was willing to accept any kind of love that he gave me and I allowed myself to believe he loved me and desired me because he married me...but I always doubted it and I pushed even harder...<P>I just wanted to love him...I just wanted forever...I just wanted a family...and I wanted him to love me back...but I NEVER really believed it was true...<P>That's why Jeffers, that's why it hurt so much when he didn't like how I kissed...it was a reflection of what I felt...that there was something wrong with me...that he really didn't love or desire me....<P>And, yes, he has really not been affectionate to me in a long time...in fact in the past five years any sign of affection would 'surprise' me...make me wonder what he wanted...it was so sparse that when he did it, it scared me...<P>But maybe it was my desperation...in the early days he never had to 'hunt,' I made it easy for him...and I still do...<P>I know I said 'love just is.' But now I wonder why...and if it just is...how do we just let go when the other person just doesn't?<P>Oh, I am really confused and crying and a mess...I am just so tired of it all...I told him I just want to give up....and he grilled me and asked me why I was being all dramatic...why was I acting like it was so serious...I don't know...the breaking up of a marriage isn't dramatic? isn't serious? I asked him why it was so casual for him...why it was so meaningless....<P>He said I didn't know what he was thinking and that I'd never know...I said...and that's been the problem for 12 years...radical honesty....the truth behind the words and the thoughts....neither one of us has been honest in that way...<P>I hurt....and there's so much temptation out there...I just want to tell him to go...fine go...I give up...I'll start over with someone else...<P>WHY NOT?<P><BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Oh Cali - I can relate so well.... I'm still going to give it a little (and I mean LITTLE)more time. I have waited and planned A'd myself to death. But I think it's almost there. Still, though, he refuses to touch me or show any affection and we're about a year and a half into this recovery thing. He gives me a peck in the morning when we leave for work and that is IT. But I have hopes and I have hope for you. Please hang in there a little bit longer (so I don't feel like such a fool for hanging on as long as I have :-)). We're here for you. Please come here to vent. I think my H is finally wanting to be with me - atleast for conversation and tonight he just started teasing me and joking around. These I think are good signs. I don't know, maybe try joking and teasing your H instead of always having serious "where are we in this relationship" questions might help. Just ask S-n-L - I am the person who keeps saying, JUST GO HOLD YOUR SPOUSE....HOPEFULLY, IT WILL COME! (or something to that affect). heh.<P>Praying - Deb<P>

Cali,<P>Why? Because you care. You hurt. You love..... NOw you are frustrated and scared that in return for all you give, he may not give it to you. What you need and deserve. <P>Right now? Before? He did not. Will he? Possible. What will it take to get him there? Honey, the tools, techniques, lessons, materials, everything is there in place. Like a house ready to be occupied. Ready and waiting. Until the day, that he opens his eyes and sees the most precious possession a man could every have. His family. His life blood flowing from him to his loving wife to his children. The bond that no OW could ever come between. Are the children a pawn? No unless he is willing to be the king and if he is why would a king allow his children to be a pawn? Hm..... could go on with this train of thought....<P>Until then my dear, you appreciate, you protect, you keep that house ready and in order. Should the day come where you are no longer to keep that home ready for your H, you will know. Now is not that time. Don't force him back before his time. It's not good for you and your family. <P>Take Care... call or e-mail if you want. <P>L. <BR>

((((((((Cali))))))))) - read my reply to your other post. I know how painful it is - when you're wearing his ring, but he won't wear yours.... Where is his wedding ring? Hopefully he's keeping it safe somewhere - and that tells me that it's still important to him, it still means something. You have to believe that too Cali. He may not be ready to wear it yet, but it means too much to him to just throw it away - that's reason for hope, it's reason to 'hold on for one more day'. Come on sweetie - I KNOW you can do this. I'm lighting a candle for you both tonight and sending healing thoughts and prayers for your marriage. I know you have faith in God - and I will tell you something. About a week before my husband decided to move back, I was starting to feel as though things were just stagnating - nothing was moving forward, I was tired of trying and ready to give up. We have been going to Church together, and that Sunday morning I just gave it all up to God, put it all in his hands. You know me Cali - I pick the bits I like out of various religions and spiritual beliefs and mix them up into a spiritual cocktail designed for me! But I can tell you that my putting it all into God's hands was a big relief...and it seemed to work!<P>Love and hugs, Paint.

thanks for your replies...<P>I am near the end of my crying jag...I have just let it all build up for about a month...that I am PMSing doesn't help... <P>ewo...I won't give up...just feel like it right now...(and this is the first day I've tried to have a 'serious' talk with him...I have pretty much let things slide)....but I knew I was starting to believe the 'lie' of him being here...<P>orchid...thanks for reminding me...I'm just in the 'how long' mode...I AM TIRED OF HIS FOG...mine is blowing away...I am recognizing the truth of our relationship and he just keeps on doing the same things...saying the same things...NO MATTER WHAT I DO OR WHAT I SAY...it is never good enough...<P>Paint...i have missed you...thanks for the hope...I have been feeling like I was in the eye of the storm...maybe there will be blue skies after all? I just think he has to leave and really experience what 'not having me' will be like to really get it...he really thinks it will be 'no big deal'...or at least, that's what he says...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

You sound like you're grieving. These issues may be "old" but your understanding of them is recent. You're still bouncing around between the 5 stages (I went back and read Orchid's post, I guess I owe her another dollar).<P>You are trying to take ALL of this pain onto yourself. It's not your fault. It's not about you. I hurt my W the same way -- by witholding affection. She was kind and loving and didn't deserve that treatment. But I didn't want it and I pushed her away. It wasn't about her.<P>It's not about you!<P>He's still doing baby steps right now. The ring is a HUGE symbol, he's still waffling. Putting the ring on would be his answer to you and he's not ready. <P>You LB'd, you've LB'd before. He'll get over it. This was nothing like Hurricane Cali.<P>You asked WHY NOT? Then you gave the answer in your signature. <P>You're angry right now. That's why you're not ready.<BR>Tomorrow you'll find Cali again.<P>Take care,<BR>--Jeffers<BR>

cali,<BR>Looks like you are feeling a little better now. You are such a strong woman, and I feel like me and my H are very similar to you and yours.... sis! Hang in there... you know you can make it. Here's a big hug (((((((((Cali)))))))!<P>YOu are doing so good, and you haven't come this far to quit now. <P>Just want you to know I'm thinkin and prayin for ya.

I'm sorry to jump in here and not offer much, but my wife took her ring off over 14 years ago, almost immediately after we got married. Your post struck a chord. It's something I worry about if we ever make it to recovery. <P>Sure the ring hurts and it makes a difference. I know I've not held up my end over the years, but the ring is a huge symbol. Since then I found "proof" that she had really wanted to marry someone else (a Tunisian BF I knew about) but she accepted my proposal to please her family and especially her mother (in terminal stages of cancer). Then her Mom died 6 months after we were married, my W said she "never cried enough" and that was my fault. I remember that. Some other stuff was my fault, too. Well, I digress.<P>We eventually had 3 kids through artificial insemination, and that's really the only thing holding us together right at this moment. But I feel it's an excellent reason and maybe, hopefully, your H does too. Without the kids, it's a lot easier to contemplate starting over.<P>Wow - it's gotta be a blow to think he doesn't like the way you kiss. I think my wife is disappointed in me, too, though it's hard to filter out the OM-talk. She said a lot of things. I read somewhere that sex therapists can fix almost anything in that area.<P>My W and me had about 1 good year when we both were working on the marriage (1999-2000) but then we lost it. My hope is that she'll be willing to do that again, but right now she isn't. I don't think her As (affairs, plural) started until right after that as a reaction.<P>Your H says he's been "manipulated" by "using" the children. Well, sure, the kids are a responsibility and I can't see how a man would drop the ball on that. And you're the mother, it's a package. As long as he feels that responsibility I would think there's hope. If he loses that feeling, I'm not the one to talk you into staying. It's like the bottom line for me.<P>Focus on the kids, would be my advice, and make it clear that it's a family unit. Make it clear that he will have to work on the marriage in order to be part of the family. I've told my wife that I will fight the standard hosing that Dads usually get in custody arrangements; she wasn't expecting that. God knows how long this will take - but it looks like a long haul.<P>Don't flog yourself over this LB, it's just too hard in your situation to be perfect all the time. Back at it tomorrow.<P>- Tom

Cali,<P>Just a quick note to let you know that I'm thinking of you. It seems that you are looking for some solid ground to put your feet on but it's constantly changing. You get no peace. It's those boundaries again. They keep raising their ugly head in your life. <P>Perhaps spend more energy on finding your own center, your own stability. And he may or may not want to be part of that. Perhaps he likes to keep you off balance. Sometimes it's easier to control another person if they are never able to gain their own strength.<P>Just a thought<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

I don't know marsha, didn't sound so bad, was kinda a radical honesty conversation about you. You didn't really seem to be leaning on him all that much, maybe a bit about the ring. But I get the sense you are coming to grips with the reality of your marriage, putting away the staged picture, and looking at the reality. That is healthy, IMO, and one of the main benefit (IMO) of an affair, it pushes people to uncover and deal with the truths governing their lives, but they did not understand, and may not like. From those truths you can go confidently into the future, knowing whatever happens, your foundation is now sound. Crying is a part of it. I know I am the ws, but through the affair, and before d, I did a lot of soul searching.... and a lot of crying, the truth is usually very painful, but also liberateing in a way, and one crys for both reasons. Sure your H may see you as needy and clingy, but he is mistaken, you are disconnecting from him before his very eyes, he will either notice or not, his choice.

Cali, I am sorry for the pain you are feeling. Don't put all the blame on you though, it takes two to have a "bad" marriage, but it only takes one to have an A (excl the OP that is). So the state of your marriage before the A is something you both need to address, not just you! I know you know this already but a reminder is sometimes good (at least that's the case for me).<P>I have no concrete advice to give you unfortunately but agree with what others have said, you are doing a very good job (I've seen a couple of your other posts) and you have come too far to give up (wish I could convince myself as easily ).<P>You will get the love you deserve if you keep doing what you are doing, you have the right mindset!<BR>-she-

(((Cali)))<BR>You and I seem so much alike. All I've ever wanted was to be important to my H. All he's ever wanted is what he wants. I'm so sorry that you're learning the same things I'm learning. I think for your sanity, let go of the ring issue. My H took his ring back to the jewelers where it was bought and "traded up" for a bracelet for OW. That STUNG, big time. He recently bought both of us new rings. However, our recovery is by NO means assured at this point, so our counselor suggested bringing them back until we know for sure. He's right. They are an expensive symbol of something that just doesn't exist for me and my H right now. I know some of what you've been through, but not all. Is it Plan B time? You just sound so hurt. He just sounds so confused still. Maybe it's really time to take care of you and to HEL* with him for a while? We love you and are here for you no matter what.

So, you are struggling with the possibility that he never really loved you the way a husband needs to love a wife? <P>If you love something let it go, if it comes back to you it was always yours.....if it doesn't, it never was.(who said that?)<P>I struggled with the issue you raised. My H always said he didn't know if he was really the "type" to be married. He's admittedly selfish and self centered, has been since he was a kid. Use to say he thought he could have lived his life never being married (not womanless mind you),quite contentedly. During early reconciliation, he told me that if I died he would not marry again, that he didn't think he would want to commit to something that was so much work again. Can you guess what he told me just two nights ago? That if I died, he would have to get married again. That he couldn't bear to be alone all the time, that he enjoyed just sharing my presence. That he would have to have someone to "snuggle" with on a regular basis, so he'd have to get married. My H has gone from feeling that he should have never married at all, to feeling that he would not want to NOT be married. Things can change, DRAMATICALLY.....but, H has to want it.<P> He says he's not staying because he wants to. You need to ask your self, Cali, if you really want a life with a man who doesn't want to be there? He has to decide for himself, whether or not he wants to stay married, with NO influence from you, in order for things to get back on the RIGHT track. As long as he feels you are manipulating the situation he won't be able to make up his mind, because in his mind, the decision then wouldn't truly be HIS! How can you be the least manipulative? Let him go. I always thought that the most loving thing I could do for my WS, who was anguishing over whether or not he wanted to stay married, was to let him go, so that he could find out and let both of us know what he wanted, so we both could get on with our lives,no matter what that meant.<P>I say this because, no matter where separating might lead you, you would feel better emotionally, and you would get the "real" answer you are looking for, a lot faster. To me, it seems you are just about at the limit of how much indecision you can handle and you're not content being used as a toy he can play with and put away whenever he feels like it. You would serve yourself and your children well, to preserve your emotional and mental (I am serious here!)health so that you can deal with his choice when he finally gets off the fence. Boundaries, I am talking boundaries here! IMO, it is much easier to begin recovery feeling good and strong about yourself, knowing that your H had the chance to really experience what it is like to live without you and decided that he WANTED to come home and commit to the marriage. It is much harder to go into recovery feeling uncertain and doubtful and makes for a much rockier, if not impassable road.<P>The biggest thing that stands out to me in your post is H saying he's not staying because he wants to, but he's sticking around enjoying the benefits, and you are feeling horrible because of it. You can fix this picture. To fix it would be to take care of yourself( enacting a boundary that says you refuse to subject yourself to continuing to live in a very painful living condition) and make yourself a stronger person. Very much a Plan A objective.Very much something that makes you attractive.Very much something that takes the focus off of H. Very much something that can show H that you have given up "manipulating" him and he's free to be his own man now.<P>My H would have seen Plan B as manipulation by me.It is easy for WS to see it as such when there are small children involved ( WAT's wife is a perfect example of this). A mutual separation worked better. My boundaries however were set(in stone), so I was protected, one of the objectives of Plan B. Where my separation was not like Plan B is that I still talked to H but reserved all my emotions(as best I could). I guess I met a part of his need for conversation but he didn't get the benefit of my vulnerability. I was taking care of me. He quickly noticed that I was pretty good at it and started thinking all the things your own H has already started to think( the idea of you eventually being with someone else). He started to see that if he failed to decide, the decision might be made for him, something he didn't want in the first place.<P>All the best to you Cali! <P> <P>

mthrbrd,<BR>AWESOME POST. One that stands on its own. Cali, she's absolutely, completely correct. It's time to take care of YOU! Print this one out and follow it. I'll say a prayer for you.

Thank you mthrrhbard.<P>Cali,<BR>Thanks for this thread and your responses. What mthrrhbard<BR>(I have to copy and paste her name because I know I will misspell it :eek , what she said is so true. Hard to face, hurts a lot but true. In the end, we find that when we begin to settle all the 'stuff' that we originally concentrated on lessen and the real items still stay on top. Like cream or scum, it still rises to the top. <P>Cream: Better ourselves, learn what it really takes for us individually to be a valuable marriage partner. <P>Scum: Learn about our bad points and trash them. <P><BR>to mthrrhbard:<P>I can't thank you enough. Your words of wisdom ring loud and clear. Hard to swallow at times, but they are a healing to my troubled soul. <P>Yes, I will listen to you better now. You were right before and I was just focusing too much on the anger and hurt stuff. <P>I am not quite where I need to be yet, but I do know the direction and if you all will bear with me, I believe I will get to where you all are. I so much want peace back in my life. I want to smile and have happy moments. I need to have it. I must have it and don't feel selfish about saying it. Very different than before. I am changing. I am trying. ..... <P>Thanks for showing me the way. <P>Mahalo,<BR>L.<P>

mthrr:<P>You've been telling me this from the beginning and I have not been ready to listen...<P>I'm there... your words are loud and clear and are echoing my own...<P>Thank you,<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali, if there is one "golden" rule that exists for a reason on MB it is the rule of no discussions about "your" relationship while WH is in the fog. My experience with this is that it is self-defeating in that usually the BS will end up getting nowhere but hurt by the discussion.<P>But what do we do about the determining where we are...in our Plan A or Plan B if we don't have some feedback? It's tough but you have to limit your feedback to what you can observe and through actions...which speak louder then words anyway, you know. "Talks" to WH are always stressful and usually end up as your's did...nowhere but more confusion.<BR>Having the BS grill them on their feelings I think results in such stress that they tend to LB in return...saying things that they don't really mean just because they're under the gun...mean, hurtful things.<P>But this kind of feedback is not what you need to assess the effectiveness of your efforts...its the long term successes that are going to count....and if you keep working on improving yourself and working on the problems in your marriage then eventually you won't have to ask were your relationship is...you will know.<P>Please...please...please...stop pressing....for your own good...it only makes you look needy and unable to survive without him....and you know you can. No one has ever been so important to a person that they cannot survive without them...we just enjoy having them in our lives...to add to it...not to be our entire lives. Show him he is important to you but not your entire life. He sounds so arrogant...so gratuitous...he has a lot to learn about you I think....show him. <P>Faye<P>

This feels good. 2 very strong posts together. This post for me is a keeper. <P>I feel like one of those dinosaurs with the 'thick skulls'(parasaurolophos??) bashing their head against each other, for what domination? Oh yea, they are 'extinct' now and if I don't watch out, I could be also. LOL!!!! <P>Both mthrrbard and buffy have really driven the point home. Trying to ask the WS about their relationship with the BS is bad...... why do we keep doing it? Because we need the reassurance. Are we getting it? No, instead we get more heartache and the continue the vicious cycle of hurt and pain over and over again. It is all over these boards. So many have posted this in various ways. <P>How do we get the reassurance? For many of us, we have to wait. In the meantime we can better ourselves. Will we cry more if we wait or if we keep bashing our heads? Well, I know for me, I kept thinking if I just try to reason with him, he will see it. DUMB logic. It works if there is no fog. But if you are in the fog, it is better to move slowly towards where it is clear. You may stumble along with way (haven't we all) but keep making progress. The OPs place is deep in the fog. The BS's place is at the edge of the fog. Our WS's are inbetween. <P>If we don't learn this lesson soon, some of us could be D and it could be our own doing. I am not looking to take the blame for the D nor do I relish giving any other BS guilt for it, but this info is a wake up at least for me. <P>For you newer ones out there. This is the kind of posts, I used to read when I first came. I was too stubborn to appreicate it at first, maybe I just had to learn the hard way. Please be better than that. Don't put yourselves into positions to have more pain and suffering thrown upon you by your own actions. A little pain up front can prevent greater irreversable pain later. <P>I wish I learned this sooner, alas, some of us (like me) are just a bit stubborn. I am learning so maybe it is possible to teach an 'ol dog new tricks, eh? <P>L.<BR>

Cali, Mthr hit it right on the nose!! Especially the part about the seperation. How many freakin' times did I try plan B and all it got me was my H thinking I was trying to manipulate him and backfired on me (because of the kids). What I needed was to do the seperation that mthr recommended up front, but I too was stubborn, until just last week.<P>Then, I was just plain fed up and decided I was getting a seperation for ME, cuz' my H was driving me insane with his indecision. He could choose to seperate, or he could choose to get off his butt and work on the marriage. I accepted either decision.<P>So far, it looks like he is going with option #2, but I am not counting my blessings yet...<P>Good luck Cali. Please stop talking to your H about finding another man to take his place. That is a threat and is a form of manipulatino. <P>Did you get to read any of the control books that others recommended a while back? "the control trap" and "the surrendered wife"? I have read both, they were really good for me and have helped me to let go...<P>Your H has to WANT to be there, he must not feel forced. Either keep up plan A and hope that it will be enough to get a decision out of him, or start making decisions for you! Forget about him, let him live his own life, do whatever he wants. You do what you want and let HIM live in limboland. You are in Cali-land, living for you, not caring what he does. <P>I think you will be happily surprised at the changes that will take place (both with you and your H)...<P>HUGS,<BR>HbH<P><BR>

Orchid, we learned the hard way..and you can count the scars on our souls for the effort...just hoping we could save you some needless pain by our experience and lessen the amount of ill-spoken words that will have to be eaten or "forgotten" by WH at the end of all this. Those words are quickly said (on both sides) but harder to forget and forgive.<P>Orchid, it took me a long time to get past the anger and utter frustration too, the hope that something I could say or do would change things...but it didn't and it won't...not until they are ready. I too worry that the anger will drive the newcomers to divorce without giving MB a real chance to work...that's why we seem to harp on all this...because a lot of time can be wasted on doing and saying things that will have little or no impact...and the BS needs to move pass all the anger and get to work. <P>We all except when we're ready...it just takes time.<P>Faye