Hi ladies!<P>Took me awhile to get back online.<P>I am so glad to be helpful. I know it may often sound (especially to newcomers fresh in the confusion and pain) that I am hard and opinionated but Buffy is right. We learned these things the hard way and so badly want to save others the same pain and suffering, if we can.<P>It is true that we have to be "ready" to take such bold steps in our marriages. It is frightening. It is depressing to think that all we've dreamed of and worked for could be gone if we do something "wrong". But, it is never wrong to protect ourselves with boundaries. It is never wrong to refuse to be emotionally abused and take the necessary steps to protect our well being. It may very well be scary but it is never wrong and it is always in our best interest and in the best interest of our children to do what we need to do to protect our emotional and mental health. Our children are watching and learning.<P>We want our children to always feel that they are special. We need to remember that we are no less special. We never want to see our children mistreated or abused.We must not let them see that it is alright for someone to abuse or mistreat us, even and especially if that person is our spouse, for they learn primarily by our example. <P>

Hi all,<P>Cali are you getting this? You & I have a lot to learn. <P>No mthrrhbard, you are not being too hard. You are helping us face reality. We know that. Just please be patient with some of us, maybe too much wax in the ears (yuck) or something like that. But it is sinking in. Slowly but surely. Setting boundaries for ourselves and children. <P>This makes more sense. Now plan A vs B can be easier understood. Often plan A appears like the BS has to take more bs to keep the Ws. Nope nope nope. Setting boundaries and plan A can work together. It forges healthy respect whether the WS wants to participate or not. Then in time when the WS does come around, it is already set, nothing new here. The WS is already familar with those boundaries. Maybe easier for the WS to come home???? <P>Boy, talking this out really helps. Wish I wasn't so stubborn. Oh well, better late than never. <P>Come on Cali, give us your thoughts. I am reaching new levels of understanding here. I would appreciate knowing how you are doing. <P>Mahalo,<BR>L.

what a great thread... I am learning soooo much. THanks ladies!

Can my 2 hour...he doesn't know exactly where I am...I don't answer his phone calls count as a mini- plan b? <P>He kissed me this morning...deliberately...on the lips...twice...<P>I think I shocked him...that <B>AND</B> I told him in the a.m. something was going to have to change...I didn't want to live this way anymore...I deserved better and that I wanted to be someone's girlfriend...someone's lover...<P>Cali

This just made my day. Thanks. <BR>--Jeffers

No it doesn't count as a mini Plan B! It is simply an NATURAL consequence to his behavior. If he's not committed to the marriage, then he isn't allowed the benefit of knowing your whereabouts 24/7.<P>Cali, you need to back way off the "I want to be someone's girlfriend, I want to be someone's lover" stuff. It's manipulative. You do not need to do this. Your withdrawl from him is enough by itself to make him think. Overdoing it will backfire. I would advise you to use only legitimate,safe outlets for your time away from him. Your goal should not be to make him jealous but to enlighten him to the fact that you are no longer willing to sit patiently waiting for him to figure out what he wants to do. You safely accomplish that by making time for yourself and your friends and getting out a bit. You might even want to plan several days away, by yourself or with a few friends. It's your strength and independance, not the jealousy, that make him reflect. Your ability to take care of yourself and enjoy your life gives him a natural consequence to his uncomitted behaviors......you might get tired of it and create a new life for yourself, one that includes less of him. To envoke his jealousy by verbally flaunting your "wanting" is a punishment. Be careful!

You know...I tell my students, "If you have to ask the question...you probably already know the answer..." when they are asking questions about whether their actions are 'correct' or not...<P>I knew the answer...<P>mthhr...your right...HHB is right....even SnL is right...I GET THIS OVERWHELMING URGE TO MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN...<P>I have emailed his divorced sister and am in contact with her regarding separation and visitation issues...<P>I will talk with him about 'separating' and see where it goes...I'm with you mthhr on a strict plan b...but he will have to be without 'intimate' contact with me...<P>and, after yesterday, I know that will bother him...but it's up to him to figure out why...is it just 'sex' or does his feelings go further than that...<P>I will also talk about my 'manipulation' of the situation...<P>I feel like I've let you all down...<P><BR><I>On another note: and this is a serious question...do you think 'PMS' could have anything to do with this? I've been checking through my threads and all my 'serious' stuff seems to happen just before....maybe I should see my OB-GYN...or take some 'holistic' treatments? I am very sensitive hormonally and I am seeing a definite pattern since June.</I><P>Cali

Cali you have not let us down!!!! No way!!! Do you realize what you have just done? You have just taken responsibility for your actions, understood what happened, and now you can take steps so that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!!! (or less frequently until it does stop for sure).<P>That is wonderful!! Be happy that you have achieved something so profound.<P>Remember, plan B with papers or without is something you do when you are clearheaded and are choosing not to live your life that that anymore. It is NOT done out of anger, revenge, or manipulation. You will know because your decision will bring you peace inside and you will know that you are going through with it NO MATTER what your H tries to do to talk you out of it... It only stops once your H PROVES to you that he is committed and is willing to move forward (whatever that means TO YOU, Harley's say it's no contact letter and commitment, good suggestion). If you let H come back before he is committed, then most likely you went into plan B with the intent purpose of forcing a reaction out of your H (form of manipulation), NOT for you (I am guilty of this - no one told me or I didn't listen, just realizing it now)...<P>Talk to Bramblerose, she'll set you straight and let you know which actions of yours seem controlling/manipulative to your husband. She is AWESOME at picking out the little, unintentional things that you would never even THINK are controlling - but they are...<P>BTW, won't your H find out that you've been talking to his sister and find out your thinking of seperation. May cause problems for you if he finds out this way and you don't tell him up front...(honesty)<P>Good luck Cali, I really, honestly feel in my heart that your marriage will do a total turnaround once you learn to deal with the control aspect and let go (believe me, it's been a struggle for me, hard to admit to, especially when it is unintentional..). That is why I push. LOL<P>What I told my husband (when the seperation talks started) is that I have no intention of dating anyone right now, right now I want my marriage and I can't work on that when I am dating someone else. However, I cannot promise that in the future this might change, and therefore I want to know that I can date, if I so choose. It just so happens that I choose not to right now.<P>I said this because I meant it. I wasn't going to wait around forever for my H, but I wasn't about to go jump in the sack with someone (or start dating) just to make him jealous either or to try and manipulate him back. It also let him know that he did not control me or MY choices... It gave him the peace of mind to know he still has some time, but it also made him wonder "how much time?"<P>Good luck Cali. I am sorry you are going through this hell. I have prayed for you once and will do it again tonight before bed...<BR>HbH

Oh man! YES! A thousand times YES! Even after two years in successful recovery if I'm going to feel insecure about my marriage it always happens during PMS! Other women on the forum have noticed the same thing. I think it was Lora that was just asking this same thing.<P>My ob-gyn is a colleague and friend. Prozac is now being marketed under the new trade name, Sarafem, as a treatment for PMS.It combats the mood swings, water retention and cravings etc. It is normal for stress to deplete Serotonin levels, levels are also normally low in the PMS phase of a woman's cycle. You might want to try some St. John's Wort. Be aware though, it can increase your blood pressure.

Sorry, forgot about the PMS question... It may have something to do with it, talk to your doctor...<P>You may just be more stressed out and more likely to get angry during this time...<P>I'm on depo so I don't really get PMS anymore, it's weird, so I can't compare. Sorry.<P>Can't hurt to ask and to read up on it...<BR>HbH

You cant let us down Cali...you can only let you down. <BR>Whatever you do, do for you...those that know you dont judge. We are only here to support...you cant let down those that truly care.<P>Trueheart

Okay...I'll eat some chocolate and calm down...<P>seriously...I need to make appt. w/ OB-GYN anyway...way over due...<P>HBH...my h's family NEVER talk to each other about serious issues...I have no worries that sis-in-law would talk to him about what I talk to her ...<P>thanks...<P>Cali