Hey Bad Hubby,<P>Bad hubby... that would be a good name for me too. I've been reading these posts as well and I feel we are pretty much in the same position. Sounds like we followed the same course of action, too. I was also initially emotionally involved with someone else, and then it became a PA which was just the most fantastic sex I could have imagined. <P>I am back working on my marriage as well and I have been having a lot of the same trouble as you. The affair is over, I ended it. But... Do I love my wife? She fulfills many of my needs, but that original lust is gone... even when I thought I felt it and we had a good round of sex, it was just that- sex. It didn't feel like 'making-love', it felt plasticky and I felt really guilty, like I was using her. She is also not terribly interested in sex, so to find someone else who is, AND meets my other EN's, is just heart-wrenching.<P>I am in therapy and reading Dr. Phil's book on rescuing relationships. I am trying REALLY REALLY hard to focus on all the good things... but I feel like you. It is hard to shake these feelings for the OW. Sometimes I just feel like "screw it!" I'll just move out and live completely on my own for a while. It's confusing to have two people want you so badly, and as a guy, having that sexual need satisfied so well is like a superstrong magnet.<P>I'm not sure what to do either!<P>-Venizio<P>If you would like to converse privately, we can do so over email, or MSN instant message. We can maybe understand each other and ourselves better seeing as we sound so similar. Let me know.<P>

First of all, I want to thank everyone who has shared with me their experiences, insight, and feelings. I got through Labor Day beating the urge to call the OW. <P>I know the course of action I must take..it is that which all of you have been telling me throughout your posts. <P>1. Sever contact with OW<BR>2. Tell W about EA/PA<BR>3. Start drinking heavily. (that was intended as a joke)<BR>4. Get back into counseling & follow the principles outlined in contained in Dr. Harley's program.<P>I know it won't be easy. <P>NOMO: No I am not your husband in cognito, but if we sound very much alike, I'd let you pick my brain in hopes it will help you to understand why we do what we do. <P>To answer your ? NOMO, Why am I still attracted to my W?<P>Well, she does fulfill EN's that OW doesn't. W is very attractive, fairly intelligent, uneducated, a good mother (and I will admit that the maternal side of her I find attractive), and is very, very classy (this is an attractive feature also). <P>OW is very attractive, 10 yrs. my junior, a porn star when it comes to sex, intelligent, educated, mature for her age, but a lot less classy than W. OW is 13 yrs younger than W. <P>OW is a shiny new Ferrari, while W is a classic Bentley that looks like it's been garaged all it's life. Apples to Oranges, that's how it is to compare the two. Both have their good qualities. <P>I think if children weren't involved it was be much easier for me to walk away from the marriage. After, all, W did it 2X before me. But, that really doesn't matter. <P>TIG, I hope that your H will find his way back to you and your children. Your willingness and conviction to keep him in your life (as well as the other BS's that have responded) gives me hope that I too will have the opportunity to rebuild my marriage if I remain committed.<P>Venizio, I agree, the magnet is strong, almost like a drug. Too bad there isn't a drug co. out there that sells a "sex patch" like nicorette is for ex-smokers.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 04, 2001).]

Bad Hubby and Venizio,<BR>The two of you could be telling my story...except that I'm the Wife!<P>Sexual fulfillment has ALWAYS been a big EN for me. When we were "courting" my H told me he LOVED that I was so agressive when it came to sex. But, four years and one child into our marriage...it was a different story.<P>My H no longer was interested in sex. He would refuse my advances...actually turn me down, with excuses like "I have a headache,"I'm too tired," etc. And when we would have sex, it would be quick and mechanical, and often he wouldn't even kiss me.<P>Naturally this was devastating to me. I didn't hide that fact from my H; I made it very plain. But it didn't change anything, and I wound up having an affair.<P>After he disovered my affair, my H angrily told me that the problem for him was that I had gained weight and he had lost his attraction to me. It is true that I had gained weight over the course of our marriage, but I never realized that he had THAT MUCH of a problem with it. He just seemed to become so much of a prude about sex...and I wasn't. I want wild, passionate sex...I want a partner who can be open and comfortable with using toys, talking dirty, enjoy me wearing sexy outfits, reading erotica together, etc. I definitely never felt like my H wanted to try things like that. The enthusiasm he had for sex slowly waned down to almost nothing by our second anniversary. <P>My H made me feel like sex was just an embarrassing inconvenience, while the OM truly appreciated and enjoyed my body (even before i had lost the weight). So, men, I can understand your predicament about staying with a Wife who could care less about sex but meets other emotional needs, or a lover who blows your mind sexually but is not the person you comitted your life to (and have children with)! Even though I'm a woman, I struggle with some of the same issues.<P>Now, i have lost a lot of that weight, but it hasn't made my H want me again. All he can think about is that I've "been with" another man. I'm "tainted." And it's always been a joke (at least, before he discovered my A) between us that most men would "love" to have a wife like me, who initiates sex often, is always an eager and enthusiastic partner. Now, H claims he has NO sexual desire, not just for me, but none, period. I don't know if this is true or not. But I do know that sex (and also affection--kissing, embracing, backrubs, etc.) are not something I can live without. It is too much a part of who I am.<P>I feel for ya, guys...I really do.<P><BR>Calla

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by calla30:<P>My H no longer was interested in sex. He would refuse my advances...actually turn me down, with excuses like "I have a headache,"I'm too tired," etc. And when we would have sex, it would be quick and mechanical, and often he wouldn't even kiss me.<P>Naturally this was devastating to me. I didn't hide that fact from my H; I made it very plain. But it didn't change anything, and I wound up having an affair.<P><BR>Calla[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can relate to that Calla. Mechanical sex does not cut it, before or after the PA. I have heard all the excuses from W, even making me feel like there was something wrong with me for having a libido. What I am learning here is that I may not have been meeting her EN and that resulted in a loss of desire in HER. Although, I failed to disclose in previous posts that she had suffered from the same dead libido in prev. M's. <P>I have been open about the problem posed by my SN not being met and I always dicounted her reason for her lack of desire (being that she had to feel a certain way to have desire for me). This I had difficulty accepting, since we are all biological creatures. Sexual desire is normal. <P>I could be in the middle of an argument and still want to jump her bones. Both she and I are physically attractive, so no issues with less than desireable physical attributes. She's a beautiful woman. I am a hansome young man. No doubt that either one of us would have a problem finding a suitable mate for an affair. <P>So, now I must to learn about being able to satisfy her EN's, although I have doubt (they're gonna chastise me for this) that she could ever be the "freak-nasty" that the OW has been for the entire affair. I'd be quite pleased if she could though, because like you said, it is something I cannot live without, it is part of who I am.<BR>

Are you sure your not my H BadHubby ???<P>My H was all about sex.<P>Finally I stopped.<P>Why?<P>It wasn't special. It wasn't making love ? It was a stress release.<P>I wanted affection.<P>He now calls the OW is release...sorry, but he was making love to her.<P>Do you have kids ?<P>The OW worked w/ my H. They saw each other everyday. She was always dressed up & pretty. Whenhe left me at the house inthe a.m. I was pretty scary looking (up all night with babies etc)<BR>Sex with the OW was great...no baggage.<P>Of course not, she didn't do his laundry, cook his dinners, deal with his family, deal w/ the over bearing mother-in-law.<P>She had time...ahh...time. Something I had so little of. What time I did have was never for me. <P>Yes, the OW fulfills you. But ask yourself why??<P>Put the OW in your wife's shoes. Would she be as attractive ? Would she want to have sex with you ?<P>BadHubby....start using your other head.<BR>Sorry, don't mean to be nasty, thought I was talking tomy H there for a sec.

louser, no, I don't think I am your hubby. I responded to another of your posts earlier. I think I heve answered your questions in that thread. Hope it helps.<BR>

Hi BH, Just wanted to introduce a possibility that perhaps your wife didn't feel confident as a lover. I could most certainly be anyone of the BS's that didn't initiate, didn't satisfy properly, basically, didn't do anything right sexually. Subsequently, I lost all confidence in myself as a lover and because my H didn't complain, I thought, well, he's okay with it. Looking back, I should have sought help but didn't. Now, I'm actually seeing a sexual therapist (part of my Plan A efforts to work on myself). <P>After reading your posts, it sounds to me like you really love your wife and I mean with the "reality-based" love of which magnificent marriages are made. I will pray for your marriage and your recovery. <P>Keep your faith.

Bad Hubby,<P>You've been given some great advice here. Twyla has a very good point on the courtship subject.<P>I want to add that this is a very common problem. If we generalize men have a larger desire for sex while women generally have other EN's at the top of their list. It is common and it is solvable! OW will probably be in the exact same place where your wife is right now one day (should you get fully committed or married) as we tend to repeat our "failures" (don't get me wrong here) in the next relationship/marriage IF we don't solve them. Consequently, you have nothing to loose by trying to save your marriage, you will be able to look yourself in the mirror and say I did the right thing and I did what I could. OW knows you're married (?), she will still be there should M not work out, BUT while working on M she can be no part of your life.<P>Consider reading "Getting the love you want", Harville Hendrix and read the following piece (if you haven't already):<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html</A> <P>Good Luck!!<BR>-she-

Bad Hubby,<P>Your analogy for describing your wife and OW were very enlightening. My H is also a car buff but I do not think he would ever compare OW and myself that way.<P>You seem to have no qualms about making love to your wife and then making love to OW and vice versa. If your OW is providing such a spectacular sex life then why do you even desire to be with your wife? Do you compare your wife with OW when you do make love? <P>In gleaning answers from you maybe I can finally understand what happened between my H and I. We are both very attractive people also and my H told me and OW that I was much more beautiful than she was. This hurt OW very badly. Anyway, it was her body that turned my H on-she is much more chesty than I am. Also, before the affair I was a size 12 and the OW a size 6. With the help of the infidelity diet I am now a size 4. <P>As I said my H and I are in recovery. I believe you love your wife very much BadHubby and you do not want to end your marriage. You just want both of these women in your life. My H in the midst of his affair wanted to know why he could not have both of us in his life. The insanity of these questions still leaves me speechless.<P>My H and I were married 17 years when the A took place with three beautiful children. Our history was mainly happy but I can see where I focused in on the children more than my H. He felt lonely, neglected and went through a Mid Life Crisis. The OW was there and being 12 years younger than my H it just fueled his passion to be young and virile.<P>Search your heart BH. You have been in this relationship with the OW for 2 years you said. Your main connection seems to be sexual. Your connection with your wife is much deeper than sex. Give your wife a chance to fill that need. I never really understood the depth of my H's need for fulfilling sex and now I do, we both are having some very wonderful nights together. Afterwards, we cuddle and hold each other all night long. Our marriage is so much better and the children seems to have lost that insecure look. My family is happy again for the first time in 18 months. <P>Please do not underestimate the damage that is being done to your family. Is the OW worth all of the pain and heartache that you and your family are currently experiencing? What happens if you actually divorce your wife and marry this person? Would your sex life forever be as wonderful as it is now or would the real world interfere as it did with your wife. Do you think your feelings for your wife will change even after a divorce? You would always love her and I have a sneaking suspicion you would cheat on your new wife with your ex-wife.<P>This is exactly what I envisioned happening to my life. My H loved me and could not stay away. Even if we got divorced and he married his OW, he would eventually come to me and try to make me the OW. My H and I have always had a very volatile, passionate connection. His connection with the OW was much tamer except in bed. <P>I really hope and pray you would return to your wife and children. You are not doomed to a life of mechanical sex if you and your wife would sit down and really discuss how important this need is for you. Your wife may be understandly wary and angry in the beginning and it will not be easy. However, just remember, the alternative, divorce, is a much more scary scenario.<P>Follow the advice given here on this website and by the wise MBers. Break off contact with the OW and follow Plan A. Read the recommended books and put all that energy and passion you are feeding in this illicit affair back into your marriage. It will save your marriage and your soul. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bad Hubby:<BR><B>Altough BS has had no interest in sex for the entire marriage...Any suggestions?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When women who were sexual shut down, it is almost always because the marriage is not meeting her needs. Meeting needs has already been adequately discussed in this thred, but no one has touched on Love Busters. <P>If Love Busters (aka LBs--angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements or one other I cannot remember right now) are the problem, many wives will shut down because of anger. Our marriage counsleor recently told my husband that if he wanted our marriage to improve he was going to have to gain better control over his anger. (We are not talking about violence or abuse here, but a consistently angry man making rude, hurtful remarkds.) The counselor says that women, either by nature or nurture are much more concerned with the state of the relationship. We worry more about where we stand as a couple and hurtful words that might roll off the back of a man will hurt a woman in a different, more profound way because the emotional part of the relationship is what is most important to her.<P>If you don't know if you are Love Busting, ask you wife. The Harleys have a questionnaire on this site about Love Busting. Even if you don't consider it to be hurtful behavior, if she does, then it is hurtful to the marriage and to ultimately to the sex life you share with her.<P>A woman's cycle of sexul arousal is much longer than a man's and the fight a couple had 12 hours ago or the snotty comment he made has shut down her libido. If anger and disappointment are continually present in the marriage, her libido will become very deadened. Most people, especially women cannot be angry and sexual at the same time.<P>Dr. Bill Harley's book "Give and Take" have wonderful examples of couple who had 4 or 5 large problems in their marriage: the H's LBs, lack of affection and conversation and a extreme disinterest in sex on the wife's part. The couple in this book (a true case, one of Dr. Harley's clients/patients) did recover their marriage and also turned it into a very sexually charged and satisfying marriage for both of them by learning to meet each other's emotional needs.<P>When a marriage breaks down it seems that a wife's sexual desire is the first to go and the last thing to be restored in a marriage because her sex drive depends so much on getting her other emotional needs met first.<P>I too live in a pretty sexless marriage. We had an unbelievably sexual courtship and early marriage. I loved sex. I loved it then, I would love to have it now. I like the type of sex that others have mentioned and that you seem to have with your lover. Both my H and I have strong sex drives, but almost always wind up taking care of it ourselves because our marriage is stressed by his 7-year affair (now over for a year) and the child he fathered of that affair. He is having a harder time forgiving himself than I am forgiving him. I am not and will not withold sex as a punishment, however, the natural consequence of hurting my feelings is to shut down my libido.<P>When he began his affair he took sex out of our lives--he felt too guilty having sex with two women, so he only had it with one--her. Meanwhile I had no idea what happened to our great sex life and he refused to engage in any conversations about what had happened. <P>When he began his affair I was a little bit overweight--maybe a size 14. I am now *very, very* overweight and he says he doesn't have any sexual desire for me. Part of the weight is my fault for getting careless and for not exercising enough, but much of it is caused by having to take 3 medications known to cause major weight gain. However, had he 'fessed up to me and confronted me in a loving and helpful way, I probably would have worked as hard then as I am now working on gaining control of this run away problem. Now he also has become quite overweight and we are in a real pickle.<P>So here we sit with a marriage that is beginning to come back to life, but we can't get the sex part jump started. He feels too guilty over what he did (having an affair and a child) and doesn't want sex with me because I am fat. I never had body shame even as I gained weight. I was an eager and adventerous lover. However, now I am too ashamed to be assertive because of my weight or rather because he told me it was what made him unhappy enough to engage in an affair. (He freely admits that the sex between us is and always has been better than the sex they had. exOW even told him one time--"I don't know what you are doing in the middle of this affair. It can't be the sex you want because that doesn't happen very often." Up until he told me he has no sexual desire for me, even after discovery of his affair, I wanted sex, I wanted much much more sex than I was getting, I wanted lots and lots of adventerous sex. I wanted to love him, to reach his heart and soul through his body. If he had had the courage to face me about my weight before it became such an out of control problem, we might have avoided the affair and child. BTW, since he told me what a problem my weight is for him, I have spent 90 minutes at the gym, 6 days a week. I think that if I had known that I was in danger of losing my marriage 8 years ago, my reaction would have been the same--get my fat a** to the gym and see what I can do about it. I am the fattest person there but some day I hope some day to be much slimmer and more fit. Meanwhile, he has done nothing about his weight. Guess him being fat doesn't matter.)<P>Meanwhile, he is Captain LoveBuster. He hates himself for what he has done and it all comes out as anger. His anger spills out into all areas of our marriage and ruins whatever chances we have of reactivating a sex life.<P>Personally I don't care what he looks like. If he is kind to me, intellectually stimulating, caring and loving he can have all the sex he wants, but he doesn't want it with me now that I am so fat. Don't know what he thinks about his own fatness.<P>BTW, do you think that your idea of a fulfilling sex life is realistic? Are you willing to live with 3 times a week of good sex or do you <B>need</B> that huge jolt of energy that comes from hanging from the rafters? If that is what you *must* have, you may need to consider if you can ever be happy in a monogomous relationship that involves paying bills, raising children and taking out the trash. You have a right to a fulfilling sex life but that must be tempered by the reality of what life truly is. <P>Mrs. Job<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited September 05, 2001).]

Bad Hubby,<P>I want to share a story with you regarding a very close friend of mine (and "no", it's not my story in disguise). I will try to encapsulate it so bear with me. <P>My friend and his wife have been married for 12 years, 3 kids, youngest 1.5.<P>His W's libido started to shrink the last 5 years of their marriage. Before that she was a sexual dynamo as far as he was concerned. She did ALL the things that fullfilled his sexual desires AND THEN SOME. But now she rarely, if not at all, wanted sex.<P>For those reasons they stopped having regular sex, he felt she viewed it as though it was something mechanical as opposed to how he thought of it ... he felt sex was a HUGE part of what he is, who he is and couldn't stand the rejection any longer and he was angry with his wife because of it.<P>He started to have an A, started out purely physical and then became emotional because the OW was meeting his long dormant EN of SF. He thought he was in love, actually he really KNEW he was in love and was thinking of leaving his family.<P>I URGED him to go to counseling, and he and his wife did. The counselor used a new technique that I have never heard of. I may be wrong but I think he told me it was developed by Masters and Johnson.<P>The counselor told both he and his wife they were not allowed to touch each other for 2 mos, no touching whatsoever and during those two months they were to have loving daily 1 hour talks about them (each other), and nothing else. No arguing, just talking to each other and about themselves.<P>After the two months, the counselor then lifted the no touching band yet they were not allowed to have sex. For two months for one hour a day, they could fondle and caress and foreplay to their heart's content but couldn't go to the REAL DEAL.<P>During this whole time they counseled once a week jointly and once a week solo with the same counselor. And, "yes", my friend had contact with the OW off/on during the 4 mos, but their realtionship started to wain. Personally I think the OW was LBing him.<P>After the four months of sex restriction, my friend started to feel an enormous desire for his wife again, and she felt the same for him. So far they are doing very well, and my best guess is that after a couple of initial sessions with the couple, the counselor recognized that my friend's wife's number one unfulfilled EN was conversation, and in those four months of non-sex intimacy my friend fullfiled his wife's EN and she was intimately connected to him again. <P>I know this may sound too easy, but it's very much based in Harley's principals .... meeting each other's needs. <P>I would suggest to you again that you find out what your wife's two top ENs are and start fulfilling them, PLAN A her. <P>I see you have written that you haven't seen OW at all this last week-end, GOOD JOB! Now you have to stick to it, it will not be easy, but it is going to be worthwhile.<P>And Bad Hubby, every time you have contact with OW, the clock has to start all over again in terms of your withdrawal. So best thing to do is not backslide.<P>We'll help you, just keep us up-to-date by posting.<P>Best to you, BH. Hopefully in a few short months you can change your name to Good Hubby! <P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 06, 2001).]

Nudged back to the TOP!<P>YO, Bad Hubby .. you in da house?

I am here. Been working all day.

Taking all of this in. Some pretty powerful stuff. Withdrawal sucks. Like I said in an earlier post, wish they made "OW patches" like nicorette, sans the nicotine...<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>The counselor told both he and his wife they were not allowed to touch each other for 2 mos, no touching whatsoever and during those two months they were to have loving daily 1 hour talks about them (each other), and nothing else. No arguing, just talking about each other and themselves.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This "technique" is very similar to that used in the back of "Torn Asunder" - book by Dave Carder. If you haven't read it, I recommend it! I learned a LOT. Mainly I learned that Harley's are not the only ones with positive beliefs that M's can be restored if only one partner is willing at first. It DOES take "hard work" by both later on, but in his book, Carder also "dissects" an A and explains the dynamics involved. And then the techniques mentioned in R's post about "no touching" while "healing" etc, which really ARE just a way to restore the desire (I believe) by both S's for the other.<BR>Lupo<BR>

BTW - BH, I have two other questions for you, also.<P>#1 - HOW did you find your way to this site?<P>#2 - WHY did you pick your screen name? It seems as though somewhere DEEP DOWN you really <B> DO </B> want to restore your M, because your screen name obviously shows your "ownership" of that title of H!! <P>Lupo (still not convinced you're not my H), except mine isn't home, yet, but could be a smokescreen? :razz:

WOW Lupo,<P>I haven't read Torn Assunder ... yet. Very interesting.<P>Hey Lupo ... is the origin of your nic (Lupo) Wolf based?<P>I'm assuming it is. I love wolves. Have you ever read the book "Of Wolves and Men"?<P>Jo

LMAO!!! OW patches! Or, how about OW Anti-deps?<P>You can do this, Bad Hubby. It will show you how much character you have, and I have a feeling you have tons.<P>Wait .. maybe I can help with the withdrawal .... try to think of OW, at 68 years old, as she would look as a Heroin addict for the last 25 years after 8 kids, and living on nothing but hard liquor, cigarettes and Hostess Twinkies. She's lost all her hair, except for the ones in her ears, and she has Summer teeth (some are there and some aren't) lol<P>Did that help???<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 05, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lupolady:<BR><B>BTW - BH, I have two other questions for you, also.<P>#1 - HOW did you find your way to this site?</B><BR>Type in the word "infidelity" using Google search engine. This site comes up in the top ten.<P><B>#2 - WHY did you pick your screen name? It seems as though somewhere DEEP DOWN you really DO want to restore your M, because your screen name obviously shows your "ownership" of that title of H!! </B><P>I came up with the name because when I found this site, and started reading all the posts (this was after a very nice date with W)I really began to feel like a bad H. All of a sudden I felt guilt. That's something that I haven't felt in 2 yrs in a PA. Always just chalked it up to, "hey, she sent me out into the world everyday, knowing there was a gaping hole in our relationship". "She allowed this to happen". I certainly would not send my horny wife to work everyday to spend 8 or 10 hours around a bunch of attractive guys... This was my thinking. But my thinking is changing. <P>And no, I am not your husband...maybe philanderer, but not bigamist <P><BR>PS, Resilient - does instant messaging with OW count as jumping off the wagon? Because she has been doing that for the last hour. Right now the tone is becoming progressively more sexual. Best I shut down and shut her out. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bad Hubby (edited September 05, 2001).]

Absolutely YES! Shut that baby down. IM is a form of contact and the OW is trying to entice you into her bed .. she senses you are becoming guarded and withdrawing from her. She's no dummy. Be a "Good" Hubby and not only shut it down, but uninstall as well. <P>I know I'm asking a lot by recommending you ditch your Messenger Program, but it is way way way too tempting and you're weak right now. C'mon, you can do it ... click, click, click GONE! <P>I'll be checking on you, Bad Hubby.<P>Thank you for telling on yourself, you get a GOLD star today!<P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 05, 2001).]