sad n lonely - you said you had a long distance phone EA. Perhaps you can shed some light on my situation. <P>Quick History: My H has had about a year long EA with OW. We met this OW on a weekend long vacation. The OW was obviously interested in my H and I just learned my H gave her his cell phone number after that trip and told her to call him. She did, and they have been talking since. The phone conversations took care of my H conversation and admiration needs. We have only seen the OW about 10 times since the first meeting. The last time I saw her, we were on another weekend vacation, after which my H said he wanted a divorce because we are too different and he wants to make some fresh starts - pursuing a relationship with her was one of them.<P>Since then, I have been busy with Plan A (it has been very natural and well received). Especially meeting his EN. My H seems very happy with our relationship now, saying that he never wanted a divorce. <P>But, the phone calls continue. I am torn - half of me knows I cannot live like this and the other half thinks that she is only his friend, and he is entitled to that. <P>Also, I know one of his needs right now is interactions with other people. He works out of the house and there's not much going on with his work - so I am about the only person he ever sees or talks to. I encourage him to talk to his other friends (guys and girls) - I am even throwing a party to get them all together. But I think he just wants to talk to her.<P>Also, regarding the whole situation, my H says that I have just 'gone with the flow". I would suppose he feels that way because I have not walked out or made any demands. I did tell him that if he doesn't stop talking to her, then we will divorce. But we are giving our marriage 6 months. It has been 3. He thinks this is absolutely absurb, since they are just friends.<P>In my opinion, this is his decision - not mine. I think he wants me to tell him what to do and he wants me to take a firm stand. <P>I think committment is a choice, marriage is a choice - if I have to tell him what to do, what will happen next time? How will I ever trust him? I haven't expressed all this to him - should I? <P>Also, what was the turning point that made you realize you had to end your phone conversations? <BR>

smile, just a quick acknowledgement, you managed to ask the few simple questions I have been agonizing over for months...and tormenting/frustrating bs's here (as well as my w) for about as long. You may want to search my name, and see what you can find of use. I will try to answer specifically in some detail tonight. Each case is different of course (keep that in mind), but I do think human relationships carry a lot of similarities too, and we can learn from each other's experiences.<P>Your concerns are justified. I would say it is almost a certainty he is in love with the ow. I use to think (I am a pretty basic guy) that people in love get married (ie divorce your spouse and marry the op, tragic, but just part of the ups and downs of life as a human being). I have come to understand that it is much more complex, people can love someone, and be married to someone else. Needless to say this is a serious problem, and causes a huge amount of trouble. You have your husbands physical presence, and his (more or less) committment, that supposedly should be "enuf"... but as you now know it is not, you want his heart too, all of it. You may have to come to grips with that never being possible. If the ow is truly worthy of your H love, he will never stop loving her. But he can become a better marital partner to you, and to do so he must stop (for the most part) interacting with the ow. You should be his best friend, therefore most of his free time should be spent with you. Is it? If not, you (and he) must figure out why not, and try to correct that. If you cannot then IMO (and remember this is only my opinion, and I am a scummy ws to boot, as well as not a counsellor or a psychologist), then I think the marriage will be bittersweet at best. If your H truly thinks they are just friends (and he may, I did for quite a while), he is in denial. They are lovers. MB says this is an addiction and goes through various means to deal with it on that basis...if your H is only "addicted" those methods will work, .... if it is truly a love relationship, and a sound one (in terms of the psychology of your H and ow) than you (and H) have a lot of serious soul searching to do, as well as a lot of work. You are in for a very long hard difficult journey, be prepared. Truthseeker on EN board has been there, as have a few others, lighthouse (if he is still here), lexxy in some ways, me too. The issues run very very deep, and the outcomes involve some difficult life choices for all involved. IMO the best way to go about it is to talk, and talk alot....put away all anger, guilting, woe is me, etc. there is no time or resources to expend on wasted motion....also harley counselling may help too.

Hey Smile:<P>Hopefully some WS in recovery will respond to you as SNL is NOT one those. His affair is ongoing and he has committed to marry the OW even though he is still married to his w.<P>Try posting over on Recovery board there are others in your situation

TMD, she will discover all she needs to know about me by searching my posts, I have been here long enough not to feel any need to revisit all my circumstances in each and every post I make.<P>I have no idea who you are, or have seen any posts by you, and I am sure you meant well here, but you are sorely confused re my circumstances. Not that it makes any real difference, but I have been in no contact for almost a month, w and I are counselling with harley's, and I am doing many "reovery" sorts of things. However, if you define recovery as being passionately "in-love" with my wife, and wishing I had never heard of ow, then it's true, I am not in recovery, and may never be. I am just another human being trying to make the best (and sense) of some difficult circumstances, as well as understand what love, marriage, bonding really are. So what is your story?<P>Anyways, I don't think smile is looking only for advice in my case, sounds like she is interested in my feelings and what happened, and that I can supply... a bs cannot. In addition I (and others who have walked these shoes) are uniquely qualified to comment on what may be good choices for a bs to make, wit a ws like us.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 06, 2001).]

Gee SNL are you calling your w a liar? I read a post by her re your counseling session last night where she says you stated your continuing love for the OW and committment to her among other things. You have made it abundantly clear here that you are not working on your marriage or have any intention of doing so. In fact I would guess that you use this forum to communicate with your OW about your continuing love for her.<P>Smile's question was related to recovery which you are not in.

smile,<P>dont let TMD, take too much off the spin SNL just posted for you, what he wrote is not bad.<P>he says clearly that contact, any contact with OP is a big no no. and he qualifies it correctly, as long as the OP has that Best friend spot, or that lover spot You cant be in it. <P>ill tell you the same thing i told another here a short while ago. it their friends, then theres no problem with you being involved right? put yourself in the mix. i am not suggesting you befriend this woman, but assurt your presence in the environment, be a part of his life, if they are "Just Friends" then theres no problem right. <P>chances are he will object, and thats the opportunity to show him through his reactions that this isnt just a friendship. once hes out in the open to himself, he will have to act differently about the relationship. <P>you said he wants you to assurt yourself. and your ignoring his request? not sure what to make of that, what other things that he wants you to do to you decide are unimportant? <P>how would you react to your H if you told him what you wanted him to do and he said nah thats your problem im not doing that?<P>think about it. isnt this about finding out what their needs are and then meeting them like pros? so hes telling you that he wants you to act like you are willing to protect your relationship with him from the advance of another woman, and your wrapped up in the its his decision bull crap? I dont get it? he want you to have a boundry that clearly states what you expect. and for you to stick to it. so tell him. your boundery is he loses the girlfriend and finds others men preferably to talk to. or he talks to you those are the choices.<P>the turning point for me? when i started to make life decisions based more on my love for the OW than i did the love of my family. i knew. but it never ever had to of gotten that far.<P><P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

sad n lonely: Thanks for your reply. We're all human. I'm certainly not trying to judge and others shouldn't either. <BR>Meeting someone and making that magical connection we call "love" is so special. To think that because you are married, you have to never feel those butterflies and emotions again - well, that is just sad. Instead, be glad to have found someone else that made you feel that way. Be glad for the time you did share. I'm sure your wife made you feel that way once - where did those feeling go? Did they fade? Can they be restored? Everyone that passes through our lives shapes who we are. If we can take all the good and hold onto that - even when we let that OP go, well, isn't that better?<P>I let someone go once. He was married, I was married. It was a EA only, but letting go was for the best. No one can take away the memories and they will never fade, I will never grow tired of them, they will never annoy me. You are still with your w, so it seems you have made this decision as well. It is hard, it hurts, but it is a choice and you are as free to make it as to not make it. <P>This is what I tell my H about his friend. I choose to let this OP go because I new I wanted to be with my H. I love my H. He loves me. But I had a real hard time loving my H when this OP was in my life - it was nearly impossible. Even after he left, it took me months to feel better and almost a year to fully give it up.<P>To answer some of your other questions, we spend a ton of time together - we make the 15 hour suggestion look like childs play (but that has only been over the last 3 months). <BR>He seems to love it, things are getting back to normal. We joke around a lot, cuddle all the time, kiss all the time and he has recently earnestly (because he says it all the time anyway)said he loves me.<P>With re to the OW, he gets mad if I even suggest he loves her. He says he doesn't even know her that well. I know at first he was confused and didn't know what he felt about her. He just knew he liked her and he was unhappy in our marriage and with his life in general. Now, could he just be bored and just like having something to do - an addiction? Maybe you aren't the best person to ask - it seems like these are different situations. Anyway, I was just interested in what made you decide to stop calling the OW. I don't think my H will stop unless I do or say something.

Thanks Chaz - you always put it straight!<BR>I did tell him I want boundaries. He seemed very pleased with that idea, but we never discussed it further. Now, maybe it's time to start talking about them. <P>Since I found out though, I have always said "stop talking to her, or we will get a divorce". He didn't care - he thought that was stupid. <P>So, what do I do when he says 'NO! I won't stop calling her' And he will. Where does Plan A end and Plan B start? Do you think he really wants me to protect our relationship (sometimes that is the vibe I get) or do you think he wants me to be the one to walk away and make it easy for him?<P>Also, should this stay between us, or should I in a very non-threatening manner approach this OW and ask her to bow out? Everyone has been telling her to stop talking to my H and that has really fueled his fire - for that reason, I think this is a bad idea. Should I just meet her and tell her I don't think the friendship is appropriate and say nothing about ending it? Just ask her what she thinks, ask her what she is getting out of it?<P>This is difficult - because on one hand I am asking "hey, how's OW doing" and I say :I know you talk to her, you shouldn't lie about it" - then he trust me and tells me the truth. Now, I can't turn around and pull this "stop talking to her or else!" attitude. Help... I'm confusing myself!<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smile:<BR><B>Thanks Chaz - you always put it straight!<BR>I did tell him I want boundaries. He seemed very pleased with that idea, but we never discussed it further. Now, maybe it's time to start talking about them. <P>Since I found out though, I have always said "stop talking to her, or we will get a divorce". He didn't care - he thought that was stupid.</B><P>tell him that you believe that it is inappropriate to have a female confidant. that he can have all the male friends he wants you dont care but this relationship with his girlfriend has to stop.<P><B>So, what do I do when he says 'NO! I won't stop calling her' And he will. Where does Plan A end and Plan B start? </B><P>oh there was a post the other day about how plan b isnt a consequense for crossing a boundry. gotta find it you need to approach this on a poja kind of front. <P>h, i have an issue i need your help to resolve. state your position, have him repeat it back, have him state his position, you restate it for him, and then tell him your open to discuss option on how to come to an enthusiastic agreement, and start to brainstorm. <P>your list:<P>have her killed<BR>limit conversations with her to times when you can participate.<BR>end communications with her<BR>have him tell her hes gay<BR>you have conversation with her about him being taken.<P>his list:<P>call her when ever i want<BR>call her only when im lonely<BR>call her when i hear a good joke<BR>call her when my car breaks down<P>whatever dont limit the ideas, the objective is to together find and agreement you both can enthusiastically agree to. dont agree if your not enthusiastic.<P>and dont threaten anything your not willing to go through with.<P><B>Do you think he really wants me to protect our relationship (sometimes that is the vibe I get) or do you think he wants me to be the one to walk away and make it easy for him?</B><P>your not going anywhere he would be. and yes hes asking!! <P><B>Also, should this stay between us, or should I in a very non-threatening manner approach this OW and ask her to bow out? Everyone has been telling her to stop talking to my H and that has really fueled his fire - for that reason, I think this is a bad idea. Should I just meet her and tell her I don't think the friendship is appropriate and say nothing about ending it? Just ask her what she thinks, ask her what she is getting out of it?</B><P>shes nobody, i dont care if they grew up together and have known about every pimple they have ever had, forsaking all others remember, that doesnt just mean sexual partners cleaving to one another means above family and friends. dont waste your time on her, spend it all on your H.<P><B>This is difficult - because on one hand I am asking "hey, how's OW doing" and I say :I know you talk to her, you shouldn't lie about it" - then he trust me and tells me the truth. Now, I can't turn around and pull this "stop talking to her or else!" attitude. Help... I'm confusing myself!</B><P>look were all human, tell him you have realized that by not telling you what you really wanted you were lying to him. and you want to be honest and open, that you really want him to end it what ever it is with this girl and concentrate on your marriage. that you want to continue to know if hes talking to her thats the part of honesty you want from him but that you expect it to end.<P>if he had a friend that was getting him into trouble, smoking pot and ripping off radios for instance or just putting him in bad situations like going to strip clubs or what ever you would have something to say about that right? well the environment she is putting him in is no less dangerous is it?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

A couple of questions:<P>1. Is the marriage going well aside from the phone call issue, or are there other problems? In other words, are you perfectly happy with everything else, or are you dealing with Withdrawal, LB's, etc?<P>2. Do you hear his side of the conversation, or are they totally private? Have you ever considered secretly taping their conversations once or twice?<P>AGG

TMD I have not read my wifes recent post, so I will do so and get back to you. However, for what it's worth, my w has a tendency to overstate, and misrepresent things....it is not malicious, and she is not a liar per se, but she is often "caught" in this behaviour. It is a problem (medium size) for us, and we are working on it. Sorry if you got caught in the middle, now I understand the reason behind your post.

AGG:<BR>Aside from the phone calls, there are few LB's and no withdrawl. If anything, we are closer than ever. But, he does say he feels "zero" spark for me (then later he changes and says "well, not zero"). It seems like things are best when I say nothing and pretend that everything is great.<P>Anyway, I wonder if I should stop looking at his phone info - he doesn't know I have that info. I don't think he calls her intending to hurt me - but it does, and then I get thrown into a whirlwind of emotion. Like I'm self destructing! I see his phone bills at the end of each month and watch his phone minutes on a daily basis. Maybe this is a bad idea - at least for the next few months??? It's hard not to look. I only know what the talk about because of what he has told me. Besides that, I have no idea. The calls are all made on his cell phone. I have thought about buying a small recorder and hiding it is his car, since that is usually where he calls from. I haven't done it, but I did look into it.<P>Aside from our marriage issues, his work has been bad lately and I don't expect that will change for the next several months. That, he admits, may be most of the cause of this.