<small>[ March 24, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: 2worlds ]</small>

I had forgotten to mention that since last fall, I have been working outside of the home ALOT, trying to "hide" from all of this, as well as meet real people with real faces..etc.

Hi 2worlds! Welcome to MB.<P>My first and foremost question to you is, do you want to save your marriage? Yes or No?<P>Karen

2Worlds:<P>There is much here to help you: read the material on this site, if you haven't already. The people here have a wealth of experience in this area ... we have all lived through different permutations of it.<P>However, saving your marriage requires 100 percent commitment. You must be fully committed to it, as must your husband. Anything short of that places an already problematic favorable outcome further out of reach.<P>So read, learn. Hopefully your husband will too, and together you can not only recapture your marriage, but make it far more rewarding than either of you realized it could ever be.<P>Welcome to MarriageBuilders.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Might I suggest telling your husband of this site? <P> I feel for your situation. It sounds like you have been through the wringer. Quite a sad first volume. Not only for you but H as well. <P> My opinion(and it is only my opinion)is that your H doesn't have a chance if he doesn't know all the details. If he doesn't FULLY understand the consequences of his failure to change some things about himself. <P> Having said that, I don't quite know how you should proceed. If everything you say is true, in that counciling and telling him how you feel doesn't work to make him REALLY change. Where is the opening for recovery?<P> As the BS(Betrayed Spouse) I will say that if you are going to have an affair then leave him....it's as simple as that.<BR>Nobody deserves an ongoing A behind their back. I know you said the A was on hold, and that is good. But, if you decide to start up again due to a lack of change in your H, then don't be so ruthless as to continue pretending to be his wife. Leave him. <P> In all truth(and I can't believe i'm saying it)it may take that very thing for him to actually KNOW that he HAS to make some changes. I would say that you might get his attention enough for him to really know that he has to change, by leaving him for a short time(without starting the A back up. That would be very important). <P> If you really do love him it may take you doing this for him to get it. For him to know that he has to meet your needs, as you do his. Just give him all the help that is in your power. GET HIM TO THIS SITE if you think the both of you could benefit. <P> Above ALL....READ, READ, READ. This site gives you both the correct tools to make your marriage strong. But, it does take two people wanting the same things. <P> Good luck to you. Ask questions...read....vent here....read. Then read some more.<P> jd

Thank you, Topie, Seen The Light, and jdmack1.<P>I can see here it will be different. :-)<P>Do I want to save my marriage? Hmmm, that's a hard question. Yes, I do. However, I think it's more I want to save the life I have now, because even I am a creature of habit. ALTHOUGH, I DO love him. I am just not sure if this is the right thing for me for the rest of my life. <P>I would sorely miss the excitement and the sexual passion I have with A, and I would also miss him severely. I have never before had someone love me as much as he does, and he shows it in a million ways! And I love him too. How could my H compete with that? I know the answer there. <P>I feel like if I stay with H, I could eventually be happy, but always aching inside. Sometimes I just want to run from this place and him, but he has been in my life for almost 20 years, and there are many good memories. But I feel, sometimes, that that is all we have..A lot of memories, and the kids. WHICH are alot. I do know that if I didn't have kids I wouldn't be here now. They are never a good reason to stay together, but they sure adhere a relationship longer than without them. <P>I don't want to hurt his family. Also, I will go to my grave with my secret. I do NOT want to hurt him. I would rather suffer silently in my own guilt. I do agree that if I stay with H that I have to let A go. How do you let someone, who is not only a big part of your heart romatically, but also big part of your heart as the best friend you ever had? My head is spinning, again. I have to cut out for now, but thank you AGAIN!<BR>2worlds

jdmack1, you said, "My opinion(and it is only my opinion)is that your H doesn't have a chance if he doesn't know all the details. If he doesn't FULLY understand the consequences of his failure to change some things about himself."<P>I think that has been some of my struggle I have this personal belief that I am not out to change him. He should just BE strong for me, he should automatically desire me, no matter what. That's what I need to be loved. It, in my opinion, shouldn't take WORK to love someone. Either you do or you don't. WOW, saying this, I sound like an idiot, even to me. I just don't want to change him for me. He is who he is, and I don't WANT him to have to work at loving me. I had loved him through MANY years just because he is WHO he is. And now, I hear myself saying that, and see that is hypocritical of me. I don't know..now I am confusing myself.

2worlds:<P>It all comes down to fulfilling emotional needs (it takes both of you: you fulfilling his, him fulfilling yours), and following the four rules: care, protection, honesty and time.<P>The details of all of those are to be found here and in Dr. Harley's works: <I>Surviving an Affair</I> and <I>His Needs, Her Needs</I>, among others.<P>Not all marriages are salvagable: remember, it takes two to make it work. But, no matter the outcome, you can become a better person, for most of what you will read translates into other aspects of life as well.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

2worlds,<P>When H and I got married, a lot of people thought we wouldn't make it. We were very different. We struggled against many obstacles. After a while, we just coexisted with each other(roomates, if you will). We loved each other but were not "in love". No passion, nothing.<BR>I found out about the A about 1 1/2 years ago. We have been in recovery for a little over a year. How did he end up in an A? We had drifted so far apart. We were not meeting each others needs and we certainly did not speak the same language (mars/venus thing). He developes a friendship and then A with a coworker. He does spend most of his time at the office. It is a logical progression if you think of all the factors involved.<BR>It wasn't until someone gave me the book Survivng an Affiar by Dr. Harley that I began to take steps in the direction of saving my marriage. I recommend that you read this book. You will see very clearly why you are in this situation. At first, my H said that he didn't believe that we could ever make it. We hadn't figured it out in all these years and he held no hope for it happening in the future. He felt that we would always love eachother but no as husband and wife. I certainly was an uphill battle. It's been a little over a year since we began recovery and I can say that things have never been this good between us. It's a hard road but our efforts have paid off. We will never let our selves go back. We will always work to protect our marriage and ourselves from becomming vulnerable to others.<P>You may not think that your marriage can make it. You don't really know until there is 100% honest effort. It might be you doing all the work at first. Make some changes, your H will notice. He may be more open to making changes himslef at that point. Get Dr. Harley's book Surviving an Affair. My H said it made a huge difference to hear what Dr. Harley had to say. Remove chatrooms from your life. Join some womens groups in your town if you need companionship. In order for you to have a real chance, the OM has to be completely out of the picture. No contact at all. No amount of effort you make to repair your marriage will work if you are still communicating with OM. You can witness that by reading right here on this website. <BR>Your commitment to your H is FIRST. Start at home.<BR>I know that my H never thought we would have that special connection he had with the OW. Now, he understands why he was there and that she could have been anyone. We also have a much better relationship than we ever thought and it just keeps getting better. Thanks, in part, to the MB principles.<P>take care,<BR>cleo

Wow..thank you very much for the insightfullness. I have alot to think about. <BR>Sincerely,<BR>2worlds

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that has been some of my struggle I have this personal belief that I am not out to change him. He should just BE strong for me, he should automatically desire me, no matter what. That's what I need to be loved. It, in my opinion, shouldn't take WORK to love someone. Either you do or you don't. WOW, saying this, I sound like an idiot, even to me. I just don't want to change him for me. He is who he is, and I don't WANT him to have to work at loving me. I had loved him through MANY years just because he is WHO he is. And now, I hear myself saying that, and see that is hypocritical of me. I don't know..now I am confusing myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> You miss my point. I am not saying that it should be work to love someone. From what I gathered from your story, your husband DOES love you. That isn't the issue you have with him right? The issue, and the problem stems from your husbands inability to express that love in a satisfactory way, to you.<P> I was the same way. I loved my W with all my heart. I was simply unable to realize how important it was that I show her that love every day. In the little ways and the big ways. I loved making love to my wife. My inability to see that once or twice a month was not enough for her is where the problems found their way into our marriage. I didn't need the act to know that I loved and was in love with my wife. She however needed the act very much. <P> So what I am telling you is that loving a person doesn't have to be work. But showing that love can be, for some, extremely hard work. The person who loves you doesn't need to change/work to love you. But they need to change/work on showing you that love.<P> I guess that means that yes. Loving our spouse is really all about work. The lack there of is what got me in this place. But it wasn't due to a lack of love on my part. Just a lack of understanding. And really a lack of really realizing what I was about to lose.<P> jd<P> <p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited September 09, 2001).]

Calling SKM and FreshStart...<P>We could use your input and your perspectives here.<P>Clyde

"From what I gathered from your story, your husband DOES love you. That isn't the issue you have with him right? The issue, and the problem stems from your husbands inability to express that love in a satisfactory way, to you." jdmac1<P>Thank you...yes, that is true. I know my H loves me, I have always known that. However, I have not alway felt he was in love with me, attracted to me, etc. because of exactly what you said. He may not know how, but geeze, after all this time, and me telling him, POINT BLANK even, what I need, and asking him what he needs...I don't know..but I now do see your point, and I agree with it. Thank you for helping me see that part clearer.<P>I very much want to concentrate on my family, and live in ONE world. So, like what you, Cleopatra, said "Your commitment to your H is FIRST. Start at home." That is what I want. "You don't really know until there is 100% honest effort." And I TOTALLY agree. But this is where I am having the most trouble. I want to try, I want it to work, OR I want to know that I tried my best and it didn't work. But doing it the way I am now is not going to work. If I continue with the A, any contact, I know and will always know I didn't give it or him the chance so deserved. <P>HOW do I give him up though????? I have not been with him intimately in a couple of months, and the last time we were together, we both knew something wasn't right and I needed to leave, and all we did was give each other a hug, and many tears followed on the drive home. We talk now, several times a day. And for the most part it is casual conversation, and laughing. I am his world. I will be honest and say he is not mine, for I have 2 worlds to contend with, and I shift gears constantly between the two. He does not. He is trying anything to keep me, but also struggles with the fact that he always knew it may never happen, and does want me to be happy. He is scared of losing me, and I am sure he knows it is extremely possible he is going to. We did say that no matter what I decide, we will always be friends and keep in touch. But I don't think it is a good thing. Especially for him. If he loves me this much, and stays this absorbed in me, and I never leave my H, how can my A ever find happiness with another woman? I know, I shouldn't worry about that. But I worry about him, so I do. Because I want him to be happy too. He wants children, and in that arena, I would never be able to help (or want to) and that I am 100% sure of. <P>I told my GF online last night that I am going to cut ties with A. She loves us both, and knows it is what I need to do..but HOW?<P>He has this new idea. He thinks that I have cut him off thus far because I feel cornered to choose between him and H. He was pushing it more, but that wasn't why. So, he decided that he would be ok and happy enough to have me JUST as his lover, knowing I will probably never be his (that's what he said) He was quite excited about this new idea, and thought that would be the answer. Considering he threw this at me while I was not able to talk to him about it, I just yeah'd him. Then he asked again while I was at work last night, and wanted a yes or no answer, but you could hear the excitment in his voice. I said I couldn't talk about it now. I know he is on fragile emotional grounds for himself right now, and I am scared to hurt him, scared how he will react. But I know I have to. I will be so worried about him. <P><BR>A quote that is ringing in my ears...<P>"But, if you decide to start up again due to a lack of change in your H, then don't be so ruthless as to continue pretending to be his wife. Leave him." jdmack1<P>I have always been considered a nice person, ruthless is not something I want to be. But you are very right. And I guess it's time to call a spade a spade. <P>This isn't going to happen overnight. A few details to take care of. But I know what I have to do. <P>~~Deep Breath~~<BR>2worlds<P><BR>

2Ws,<P> I can only tell you what gave me some of the most pain at the whole thought of the A. Which was that if I was what my W claimed, then she should have left me and divorced me. Instead what she did was exactly what most WSes seem to do. Carry on behind my back and pretend that everything was ok, if not great in our marriage. This was much harder for me to deal with than the sexual acts themselves.<P> For the BS it is "RUTHLESS" behavior. For me it was like I wasn't even worth the effort of being divorced first. It made ALL the hurtful things said on d-day that much worse. Simply because I truly felt that I was not worth even that much trouble from my W. <P> I wish some WSes would jump in here. Some of you who have really made the effort to recommit to your M. 2Worlds needs input from you that know better where she is coming from.<P> jd

Although I am very sorry you have gone through the pain I could be giving to my H, I do truely appreciate your insightfulness. Thanks a million, and may God bless you.<BR>2worlds

Bumping.

2worlds,<P>I understand that you have deep feelings for OM. This is true because he has been the one meeting your top emotional needs. It's time for your H to start meeting your needs. In order for that to happen, there must me NO Contact at all. No phone conversations or chat room visits. I really do understand that you do not want to hurt him. You know how much he cares for you. Both of you will feel bad either way. Cutting all ties is the only thing that will work. If you drag this out in order to "soften the blow" for your OM you will regret that decision in the end. <BR>The ripple effect of an affiar is awesome. It reaches far beyond you, your H and your OM. You have enough trouble with your in-laws. Do you want to add this? More ammunition for your sister-in-law? How will this affect your relationship with your child? Give serious thought to this. You already know what to do. It's just going to be one of those very difficult things that you must do.<BR>If you want to recovery your marriage, and you really sound that you do and are looking for the support to do it, then this is the place. There are many people here who can help you.<P>One last thing. Being a mother is an incredible responsibility. We must be strong for our children and protect them in this chaotic world we live in. You have to set an example that you would want your child to follow. <P>take care,<BR>cleo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I understand that you have deep feelings for OM. This is true because he has been the one meeting your top emotional needs. It's time for your H to start meeting your needs. In order for that to happen, there must me NO Contact at all. No phone conversations or chat room visits. I really do understand that you do not want to hurt him. You know how much he cares for you. Both of you will feel bad either way. Cutting all ties is the only thing that will work. If you drag this out in order to "soften the blow" for your OM you will regret that decision in the end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>THANK YOU!!! Hearing that made things so much clearer. That is exactly why I don't want to give OM up. He LISTENS to me, is attentive, romantic, finds me attractive, shows genuine excitement over seeing me..etc.. Where H EXPECTS me to be here, and takes for granted that I am here. That's why I feel like a fixture. When we are intimate, more often than not I feel like a porthole for his pleasure (sorry for the crudeness)and not a woman. Can I get him to see me differently? Why can't he see me the way my OM see's me? Baffles my OM too. <P>An example of how I am direct with him to what I need is I told him if he would take a shower before coming to bed, I would be more apt to start something. (he says he shouldn't have to always be the one to start it) But I am sorry, I don't want it if he has been working all day and doesn't care enough to shower before climbing in bed with me. ALTHOUGH, I have never told him NO (I take what I can get..lol) but I wouldn't be the one to start it if he isn't clean. Is this so bad to ask of him? It is a constant request from me to him for years, and I can count on my 2 hands how many times he has done it. At the same time, I can count on ONE hand how many times it DIDN'T cause a negative mood change from him that I requested such an awful thing! ohh yeah,,,THEN I feel loved! I am sorry, I am venting that one tonight because I just went through that. I bathed the kids, then I told him I was going to jump in the shower. I said "you should too, you look like you had a hard day,(the dirt was quite visible) and could use a shower. He grumbled something, and while I was filling out some paper work for school, he went to bed, no shower. ARGHHHHH!!<P>I want my H to be all those things that my OM is..isn't that horrible?? And you know what? I could give up wanting the sex part if I had more of the other things. I could be happy. <P>Once again, I am rambling..thanks for listening :-)<P>2worlds<p>[This message has been edited by 2worlds (edited September 10, 2001).]

HI 2worlds,<P>I am dumbfounded! Your story is almost EXACTLY like mine except for the in-laws. That and I am the husband!<P>20 years, kids, the chat room where you and my wife met your lovers everything. Well naturally there are details that do not match but the key points match. The abuse (as a child I assume), the low self esteem, the weight loss, (my wife went form some ware over 240 to 130), and the want to take the new body out for a test drive because of increased sexual desire, and me. Wife felt embarrassed with her cloths off. Because did not bother her about her weight, still said she was beautiful, flowers, gifts, new cars, the works. Well I increase my compliments as she lost weight and even more now that she is thin, you know, not only did I really feel what I was saying, I thought positive reinforcement would prevent her returning to old ways. Well this led her to believe that if I said she was beautiful when she was heavy and hating herself, I obviously did not know what I was saying or was living. Thus another reason to find the OM! <P>Also a word of warning, you name “2world” and your actions, says a lot. You want another life, with OM if need be. But you have a “nice” husband who hasn’t given you any REAL reasons to leave him other that not blowing your skirt op anymore, or enough, no romance, and defiantly OLD NEWS. <P>OM is new, and clean and everything your H is not, and , aaa, doesn’t know he NEEDS TO BE. I have a question for you that requires some real honesty with your self. If you were waiting for your OM to walk in, thinking how it will be when he gets there, wanting him, NEEDING HIM, and yes lusting after him. After all you haven’t seen him in a wile and a lot of foreplay has gone on in that pretty head of yours. You hear him drive up, walking quickly to the door because you KNOW he wants you bad too, he walks in, dirty and sweaty form work. At this time do you wait and ask him to take a shower first, or jump willingly into this waiting arms? You do not have to type an answer here, the answer is just food for thought, for YOU. Ever think your husband wears his dirt and sweat as badges of honor testifying to how hard he works for YOU?<P>1. Also, I have a favorite saying for one of the Mad Max movie, “NO matter where you go, there YOU are!” Meaning if YOU do not fix YOU, this is almost sure to happen again. Your husband is the way he is, in PART, because of you. Because of what you allow him to be, and because you let him THINK what he is doing is making you happy. NOW do not bite my head off, I did NOT say this distance and frustration is all YOUR FAULT, ok? But you must acknowledge that SOME of how HE is not satisfying you is a communication.<P>2. God has a strange sense of humor, I understand on average, men REALLY like sex from late teens to late 20 or thirties, woman start really likening it about the 30’s to 40’s, I think. Any way weather I got the numbers right or not, can see the humor. Yet we men can adapt to more sex real fast and real easy. I did.<P>I tried for over 7 months to get through to my wife, to let her know that I loved her, she would not talk about us, sex was once a month, then, I pulled back because I thought she did not love me. I felt if the person that I loved with ALL my heart was going to go, I better start numbing myself now, or I will die, I really would, if she left me. So, the online affair moved into the real world real quick. And yes, the OM is two hours away too!<P>3. If I understand you, and my wife, when you first got married years ago, you did not really like sex correct? Didn’t this last a number of years? Do you think your husband picked up on this? But he loved you as you were, adapted, and became used to sex on your schedule, and STILL is? At this point I must remind you that I am not saying it is your entire fault. He has also stopped doing things too, LOTS OF THINGS, right, it takes to to destroy a marriage and it takes two to MAKE it work, and yes the word WORK is in “making it work”. <P>YOU REALLY NEED TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE! Plus, can you really start a new relationship until you REALLY GO ALL OUT and DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO MAKE THIS MARRIAGE WORK? PLEASE, PLEASE STOP THE AFFAIR NOW. My advice is, yup, tell him, he deserves that, he is worth it. That may end your marriage, it may save it. Who needs to? You both do.<P>He doesn’t SEE, really SEE you right? Your and my story and so many other are so textbook. You have changed! He might have changed or not, but I BET, he really doesn’t KNOW you have changed. Also he has NO IDEA how to give you what you need. Believe me he THINKS he is! <P>I thought that being faithful, working hard, providing a safe warm house, and flowers once or twice a month was saying “I Love you”. If you of some of the other women that read this and say, “Wow, I wish my H would do that, then I would know my H loves me”, then THAT is how they HEAR “I love you”. But is was not the way my wife herd “I love you”. That is not a bad thing, we all have different ways of SEEING out NEEDS filled, did I make that clear?<P>He doesn’t have to try HARDER, he just needs to know WHAT you need. Perhaps if he knew he would be the most amazing man you ever met! Maybe not. Maybe he will only do it for a while maybe for ever, maybe he will leave, WHO KNOWS? BUT you must try, you must find out. What you are doing now is the most wicked, ruthless, hurtful thing possible. He might “RISE” to meet the challenge! You MUST know he WILL find our sooner or later right? WHO would YOU want to tell you? I wish my wife had told me!<P>I KNOW computers, a little about hacking, and infiltration, I acquired a lot of information, communication between W and the OM. So I am lucky, I know a little about what she was looking for. I am trying to make this happen for her. Right now, things are better in ALL areas! So if you do tell him tell him everything! And LET him ask WHAT EVER HE WANTS TO as often as he wants to, I wish I could. If he stays, he will want to know everything, especially WHY did you do it? What does OM have that H does not, where did he go wrong, and how can he make sure this NEVER happens again. He will morn over the death of a marriage, then embrace a new one, again, IF he stays. <P>When I woke and confronted my wife, I fully intended to “KICK HER A$$ OUT!” But as she opened up, and my heart opened up, and thank GOD I realized my part in this. NOT that anything I did excuses what she did and not turning to me and turning to the OM, got it? But I was involved in a marriage that had become venerable to an affair. That could not have happened with our me doing my part, or not doing my part depending on how you look at it. As you can tell we are still working on our marriage and I hope we always will. I wish I knew then what I know now, don’t we all.<P>If you EVER loved your husband, I bet you still do, despite you even questing that right now, we did. Like I said I thought she stopped loving me and she did to.<P>Well enough for now, I always go on too long in here. I come here for help in building our marriage and trying to understand what happened to let the affair happen so we will not let happen again. I am also still trying to understand the affair too. <P>I just thought you would like to hear the other side, the H side of a wife in an internet gone to real world affair. There are 1000s of people ready and willing to fill what ever need your H is not filling, their always will be. What do you thing will be different in your new relationship in 10-20 years?<BR>

2worlds,<P>I bet that if you and H took the emotional needs questionnare right now that both of you would be suprised. What would NOT be suprising is that neither one of you is meeting the others needs. You have neglected him in your pursuit of the affair. His negleting you makes you feel justified in loving this other man. You both neglected your marriage and that is how you did not protect yourself from the possibility of an affair. When you are meeting your H's needs and he is meeting yours, the two of you will begin to regain your passion for eachother. It's not possible for any of that to happen while OM is in the picture.<BR>If you really want your family, NOW is the time to take serious ACTION. Don't talk about it and over think it. JUST DO IT(sorry nike).<BR>Have you read any of Dr. Harley's books? If not, get SAA and HN/HN right away.