I found out AGAIN that my H is still talking to OW. She called from VA yesterday to tell him that she was alive. I checked his cell phone, saw the long distance call and asked who it was. He told me it wasn't her and that he didn't remember (he talked to this person for 10 minutes). Well, I called the number this a.m., found out it was a hotel and asked for her. I then spent 35 minutes on the phone with her. I found out a lot of things. I'm so confused and hurt all over again. I thought contact ended 8/14. It hasn't. My H told OW that the "no contact" letter was written by me and that she shouldn't believe a word of it. That's why OW sent it back to me unopened. So is this part of the waffling, or does he REALLY not love me and he's just afraid to admit it to me? Things had gotten better this past week with him being more affectionate and we even had sex last night. How does someone do this? After the tragedy of yesterday, why do I want to live my life with someone who's lying to me and living another life? Please help.

MOM,<P> Believe me I know how you feel. Will this ever end? Probably not unless our WS come out of the fog, and really commit.<P> Or, until we grow strong enough to show them the door for good.<P> I am truely sorry for your pain. I know that doesn't help much, but it is all I can give at the moment. I'm sorry.<P> jd

Everyone may think this is a LB. But I am sorry, there needs to be some kind of consequence for his actions. This is totally my opinion and take it for what its worth and if you are not ready to be "on your own" don't try this. I think you should "matter-of-factly" tell him you love him but this is not acceptable and tell him to move out. Then Plan A. Have you read "Love must be Touch" by James Dobsen? <P>I understand your pain. My husband continued contact with OW for 7 years and EVERY time he swears "no contact" then I find out he did. this has happened 3 times this year, each time his world is turned upside down. He must move out immediately - not when he finds a place or next payday - TODAY. Each time he contacts he has had to spend more time away from his family. The first time was 2 weeks the second time was 2 months and this time it's been almost 4 months. I am going in the direction of restoring my marriage AGAIN after I filed for divorce 3 months ago. IF he does it again he will have to move out again. I am not naive enough to believe it will never happen again. But I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the gazillionth time. Each time we both change. I become stronger. I become more aware of my feelings and trust them more. I learn to trust his actions not his words. I learn to trust my instinct and be true to me. I also am learning (have not learned yet) to be honest with my feelings - if I have to pray my way through sex - something is wrong. <P>I hope this time it is for good but if it is not he's gotta go. Then he can AGAIN suffer the shame that comes along with it and dish out the money that comes along with getting his own place. I think for me the healing is KNOWING that I can make it on my own without him. That gives me the self-respect to follow through with the boundary of "no contact" the consequence is he must move out. If he loses me - he has lost a treasure and if he can't appreciate that then "see ya"!<P>I really am sorry for your pain. It really tests our sanity. I am guarding my mind and heart - I am not as gullable and naive and trusting as I once was. <P>

MOM, I am so sorry for your pain. It hurts to be lied to, I know it does.<P>At least now you know why he has been acting the way he has in counseling...<P>Did you set any boundaries before you started recovery? Did he actually accept that you were in recovery and committed to the marriage, or did he kind of just "go along"? If he was committed and is now screwing you over and lying to you, something needs to be done - or else he'll keep doing it...<P>My H knows from my actions that he has no more chances. I can't count the number of times he has told me "this is my last chance, I'm not going to screw this one up." "no, I would not take that chance." "I'm going to do everything I can to make things right between us."<P>And I didn't threaten, I didn't say anything to make him think this. It was my actions. When I had had enough, when I was done being in limbo AGAIN, I just filed for seperation. I was done. I did not ask him, I did not talk about it, I just told him I had done it. (the papers never went through because I stopped them and gave H one more chance)...<P>But, my point it, when my H said he was in recovery and led me to believe he was committed, THEN he turned around and put me back in limbo. I was done, I was not going to live like that anymore.<P>Consider going to plan B in a week or so (after you have some time to cool off from this and are not REACTING to this).<P>You are not in recovery right now. Neither am I. I hope to be soon, if H actually follows through and does everything he says he will... I won't know FOR SURE for at least a few more weeks, and maybe even then some...<P>Good luck. Whatever happens, you can't just sweep this under the rug or ignore it...<P>I don't know why WS's do/say the things that they do sometimes. I wouldn't necessarily believe all the things that you hear from OP either, keep in mind, she has her own view on things...<P>HbH

Thanks to all who've responsed. For those that don't know me, my H returned to our home after a 4-month separation. I had given him Plan B letter after Plan A'ing 4 months. He came home 3 days after I gave him that letter. He continued to see/talk to OW until I found him out after 3 weeks being home. When I told him he needed to leave again, he wrote "no contact" letter. He had me send it certified/return receipt requested. She refused it. He told me then that he had talked to her and told her what the letter said. He wrote additional text at the bottom of the letter and had me mail it regular mail. 3 days after mailing it, I got it back, unopened and cut up along the bottom. When I expressed to him my dissatisfaction with the fact that she'd never read the letter, he got angry and asked what I wanted him to do about it. I said call her and tell her over the phone what the letter says. He wouldn't do it. When I spoke to her this a.m., she told me she sent the letter back because he told her I had written it. He called her the day after she got it to say that if she did read it, not to believe anything it said. She told me he's been the one calling her. He called me later today to tell me that SHE's the one lying now. He told me that he felt like things had been getting so much better between us. I felt the same, but after this, doesn't he understand I'm back at day one again? He says he WANTS his family, including me, and that he DOESN'T want her and never will. So what do I do in order to feel safe? Do I have him call her with me on the line? How will I EVER be able to know whether it's over or not?

I don't mean to hijack your thread but I haven't gotten many posts on the Recovery Board. Maybe you can help me. I was thinking of asking my husband to move home. Here is a little more of my story.<P>I am the BS and D day was 6/1 which is the same day I asked him to move out. I then filed for divorce. He has been doing all the right things ever sense trying to restore our marriage. I have been having second thoughts for the passed 2 weeks. We have talked a little about the things we are going to do differently. Radical honesty, individual and joint counseling. We have spent about 4 days together as a family. Neither one of us has mentioned him moving back home. I don't want to rush things. I am kinda scared. One minute I want him back home and the next I want to wait. The kids want him home. It is a big help having him there because of the kids as well as the finances. But I don't want him to come home for the wrong reasons. I don't want to interrupt the progress we're making. I am afraid if he comes home he will go back to "normal mode" and be more tempted to call OW. Should I wait until he brings it up? or until I am more certain? what if he is waiting for me to bring it up? what if I'm never certain? Also, he wants to know what our plans are for tonight. How much time during separation should we spend together? I am scared. <P>Remember this is the 3rd time he contacted ow in one year. Each time we separated, this time for the longest and I filed for divorce.

MOM:<P>If they only realized the agony they put us through by not being honest from the get go. To me, not telling the whole truth means he (they) are still acting selfishly, putting their needs adhead. If they can still act & think this way; what else are they capable of doing ? <P>Totally honesty. <P>If it's over with him & the OW then it's over. No in between. It's an insult to you if he can't be honest. <P>If I were you I would ask him to write & send another no contact. If he refuses. There's your answer. Obviously you have no problem speaking to her so have him call her before he mails it & have him tell her straight out & then have him verify that you are with him. If he contacts her after tell her to call you. If he does......it's time for him to move out. <P>Sorry if I sound harsh I'm just tired of all of us being "let down" & lied to over & over again when all we are doing his trying to recover & make our M work & be happy together.<P><BR>Notheard.......<P>I'd wait. I've spentv the last 6months going back & forth with H. One week he's out, next back. It drove me crazy. He's out as of today ( was suppossed to be yesterday, but with the crisis I didn't want to be alone). I have to stick to it this time. No time limit. I am so week when he is around. I plan A like crazy & all he does is make me feel used. When he thinks I'm okay he begins to get too comfortable & starts to take me for granted. I find myself wanting to LB to remind him that I'm not OK and he shouldn't forget it. If I do LB we get in a nasty fight he says mean things to me & there goes mt self esteem again.<P>I plan on keeping him out for as long as possible. Until I feel strong enough to deal with everything. Yes, I'll be lonely, but I've been alon most of my M.<P><BR>Think hard about it. If he hasn't asked to come back maybe that's a sign that he's not ready either.<P><BR>Lisa

I think what your saying then is to take it slow and "limit" the family time together. So since he is picking up the kids tonight then I will go do something without them instead of spending it with them. <P>I just was thinking his actions are saying he wants to be home and I just don't want to play games or drag this out. I was thinking have him come home and "wait and see" if he is sincere this time. If not then he can leave again. I just want to speed up the process. If we're not going to be together - then the sooner I find out the better. And if we are going to be together then lets start working on this marriage. <BR>

Well if she say's that he is the one calling her, and he denies it then i think he should have no problem with calling her with you on the line. That would mean that his beloved OW would be lying on him and that is a no-no to MM for there mistress to actually tell the truth & spill the beans to the wife. So if he refuses again for the 3 of you to be on the phone for this discussion then you know that he is once again not going to stop contact. But then again, he can always tell OW that he only did it because he was angry with her for telling you the truth. So either way you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

notheard:<BR>Wait. There's nothing wrong with you working on the marriage and being together as a family, without his moving home. If you have doubts, by all means, WAIT. I wish I'd waited to let my H move home. He wasn't (and still don't know if he is) ready.

Notheard<P>I agree with Myownme. Don't give up family time & don't make H think you don't want o be w/ him.<P>Also, men due speak a different language so his not saying he wants to move back doesn't necessarily mean he does or doesn't. If you're wondering maybe you could just be honest & tell him how you feel & see what he says..<P>Simply....I miss having you home & I often think about having you back, but I'm not sure I'm ready. How do you feel about the situation now ? If he says he doesn't want to move back...Don't LB...he's being honest (even though it probably will hurt) If he says he wants back in Tell him how nice that is to hear & it really means alot to you & it makes "recovery" so much better, but you may need to wait a little longer to be sure. You don't want him to feel like a yoyo & jeopardize your progress to date.<P>MOM:<P>What have you decided to do ? I think the 3 way phone call is your best bet. Let me know. I'm interested & concerned.<P>Lisa

Well my H and I talked (he talked, I listened) last night. My problem now is that I've heard most of it before. Although he finally told me the truth about the 2 no contact letters. Basically, after he had me mail them, he regretted every word of them. He told OW that he didn't mean what was in the letters and that he hoped she would ignore them. So when she mailed the second letter back to me, it was because she felt that I was harassing her! Basically, he still tells me that his place is with me. He tells me that he loves me and he does NOT love her. He told me the truth about talking to her. He said that he will go 4 or 5 days and then either she'll call or he will. He tried the old "I can't see why I can't just be her friend" speech. I said "fine, you can be her friend; you just won't be living here." That's kind of where we left it. We both have individual counseling today, so I've got lots to talk about. I plan on asking if he's been through this indecision CRAP with others and how do I know when to let go...<P>My biggest fear, and I told my H this, is that I will NEVER have a H who can come to me with the truth. Every time he's had to come clean, it's because I've CAUGHT him. He's never come to me on his own.<P>This whole thing sucks SO bad, it makes me wonder (a LOT lately) just WHY I am hanging in here so long...

MOM,<BR>I write here because I TOTALLY RELATE to your situation. <P>Last night we did the radical honesty thing. I shared ALOT about my passed that only one or two of my CLOSEST girlfirends know. It was not too hard actually, it was like a weight was lifted. As if I was saying "Here is who I am and if you don't like it leave but if you really know me and want to be with me you must really love me". <P>The problem is he shared alot about his passed (before I met him) but for our 11 year relationship he really didn't share much that I didn't already know. And what I know is because I CAUGHT him and showed the proof that I caught him. He said (which I've known for a long time) that he only had a physical affair with OW in 1994. But yet we separated 3 times this passed year because he contacted her (which I had to prove to him that I knew) It was emails or Birthday cards and once they went out to dinner. But he swears that is all it was. And he swears he loves me and he will have no problem "not contacting" her again - that it is not worth it to him. He wrote "no contact" email. I followed up 2 months later with an email to her. But she never replied. <P>I wonder if we will ever really know the truth. <P>Have you read about Passive Aggressiveness? Here is a site for it. It describes my husband. It may help you relate to yours also. IF he fits the mold. <A HREF="http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html</A> <P>I am sorry I don't have any words of wisdom. Just letting you know I am here and you are not alone. When I read your posting (if I didn't know any better) I would think I read it - our stories are identical.<BR>

oops I meant to say. When I read your posting (if I didn't know any better) I would think I wrote it - our stories are identical.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myownme:<BR><B>My biggest fear, and I told my H this, is that I will NEVER have a H who can come to me with the truth. Every time he's had to come clean, it's because I've CAUGHT him. He's never come to me on his own.<P>This whole thing sucks SO bad, it makes me wonder (a LOT lately) just WHY I am hanging in here so long...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>MOM,<P>I, too, have been thinking way too much about this in my situation. My H has NEVER come to me. I knew he contacted OW #1 last year and I gave him many opportunities to tell me. He denied any contact. I had to show him her IM to me giving us our new unlisted phone number (he still denied that).<P>Anyway, I'm fense sitting right now wondering if I'll ever be able to trust and let go enough to have a normal marriage again. Deep down, I don't think I can continue!<P>I wish you much luck as you weed through your thoughts and come to terms with a decison in your heart!<P>God Bless!<P>

I feel your pain but I can't offer any hope either.<BR>D-Day 8/21. Originally, she had cooked up a story of complete innocence with OM about the activities of the "one night stand". Having caught her red handed in several lies about the original story, she admitted to "One long kiss" and claimed she regained her senses and it stopped right there. All the while, she claimed (Only after I asked) no additional contact except one call from her mobile which she hung up before he answered and one call from work which was (she said) purely business.<BR>Again and again, I keep asking her to admit that she did have sex with him, because with all the circumstancial evidence, combined with my gut feeling, there is no doubt that they went all the way. Also, she has refused a lie detector test. She wrote me a letter a week after D-Day explaining that the reason she was withdrawn and wanted her space was not because she was still seeing him, but because she has not been able to face herself because of the shame of the "terrible" thing she did. I asked her several times why she should be so ashamed if all she did was kiss ? She said she couldn't face me because she couldn't face herself. At that time however, she was "on cloud nine" with everyone else she came in contact with. I forgave her over and over, and reassured her that I am willing and able to move on, but not until I am certain that she has given me the whole story.<BR>As is so often the case, since D-Day, there have been ups and downs, more lies, more denials, and flip flops about whether or not she wants to commit to rebuilding. <BR>The final straw came last Friday when I went home unexpectedly, and listened to her talking on the phone with OM about OUR relationship (she reassured him that it was over), who of our mutual friends knew about what they had done, and worst of all, they discussed the details of their latest story. Her last words to him were "OK, that's the final story, and I'm sticking to it."<BR>Perhaps my perspective is jaded, so I ask you all, do you or could you believe this fogged liar ?<BR>We talked for quite a while, with things starting out real ugly, but ended on a good note. As I drove back to work, I realized what a gullable fool I have been to think for a second that I could believe anything she has said - especially about having sex with him.<BR>I decide then that it was time for me to leave and I have.