What bothers me is that "I" made a commitment. "I" remained faithful & was always honest with my H, but H did things with OW. They know what they did, they talked about me, he compared me, complained about me etc etc It really bothers me that they knew about me, but I didn't know about them. I have a right to know. He had NO obligation to them.

i think we all know why a WS does not divulge all. SELFISHNESS, in every statement SnoBird gave, it all comes down to not protecting her mate as she has made herself believe, it comes in to protect HERSELF, so she can continue to fantasize about OM, in letting BS know ALL then her fantasy in her mind will be marred that someone actually knows that their actions were pure selfishness on both parts. By not giving all the info./story asked by the BS the WS are ONCE AGAIN deceiving them, by not giving the BS a choice IN THERE OWN LIFE, and the choices are, DO I WANT TO STAY or DO I WANT TO LEAVE knowing what i know. They are taking away the BS basic right to fully know WHO/WHAT they are dealing with and and if they even want to be associated with the WS. WS are portraying themselves to be something they are not, and since the BS doesn't have the full story, they really don't know what/who they are married to, and the WS think/hope that TIME will take away those questions so they can get out of the hot seat, but the silence and pushing under the rug, just hightens the marriage to be even more of a false, surface only relationship.

<B>I think the WS made some major decisions in my life without me knowing about it, ... and yes it directly affected me and my life by its self and together with my W. ... It has done damage to our marriage without the details and truths out. Now, it is time for the WS to come clean and give me some choices back. I want to be able to chose if this is what I want, and who I want. I am the victim of her As and her choices, and I now want to be able to decide if I am married to the right person and the honest person I thought I was married to. <P>I didn't marry my wife for what she has done, but for who she was, and now I am learning I didn't really know who she was. So I want to know everything about who she is, and yes, what she has done in our marriage may affect the way I see her and how I see who she really is. <P>So, for all these reasons I feel that a BS should be given their choices back, and if they chose to hear the details however painful or damaging they are, the WS shouldn't have the choice to keep it from them. The WS should be honest for once and give us what we want to hear, and let us (BS) decide whether we want to continue our marriage or not</B><P>wow, sem. I agree with this, I do believe.... very good wording for something I feel. I have felt very much like my H has made/is making a decision for MY life, in which I have no say-so. He is someone I thought I could trust with my life and my future - to protect it and me. We made a mutual decision to get married - he's making the decision to end it - he made the decision to cheat. hmmmmm.... more to ponder. THank you for expressing those thoughts.<BR>

Well, this is an interesting topic. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.<P>Snowbird - IF your H asked, WOULD you tell him about the marriage plans, or the great sex, or the 5x in one night, or would you lie?? I mean, ask your H, DOES HE WANT TO KNOW?? Let him decide, NOT you. <P>My H told me everything, and I mean everything. Every gory, gross detail. I don't want to know. I didn't ask for the specifics, however, he needed to get everything off his chest so that he would feel better and know that there was nothing else for me to find out. If I didn't know every little detail, it would be alot easier to get rid of the images in my head and I would have alot less resentment.<P>Everybody is different though. I guess in a way, I'm happy there is no more "bad things" to find out, but I will never REALLY know, so I still live with that fear...<P>HbH

Dear SEM & Keep Smiling,<P>You guys are recovering and you are here at MB and I commend you.<P>KS - I give you credit for all you are doing to work on your marriage. I give you credit for confessing as we have read about all sorts of WSs who deny any involvement whatsoever.<P>SEM - Perhaps KS didn't confess all because she wasn't sure if you would have truly forgiven ONE affair, let alone FOUR. And now that you both are learning more about the importance of honesty, and from what I'm reading here, honesty must be one of your most important emotional needs. KS realizes this and she confessed--to her credit! Can you imagine how much nerve that took?! I say give her a break.<P>SEM, you can be pitiful or powerful, but you cannot be both. I think you guys are making so much good progress toward healing, don't let this setback take away everything you have worked for all this time. I say give her credit for telling you.<P>Think of all the BSs out here right now who are frustrated because of not knowing the whole truth, having to snoop, spy, spend money investigating to get PROOF to confront their WSs who are too chicken to confess.<P>I'm not trying to chastise you SEM, but just wanted you to see how fortunate you are for your W to come forward with the whole truth because she sees the importance of telling it all. Regardless of when she told you, it would still devastate you so she was in a no-win situation. Personally, I give her credit... {{{{Hugs to you both}}}}

BTDT,<BR>Thanks so much for your encouraging words. <P>Right now it's tuff, but I know God will bring us out of this ok.

<BR>Snowbird - IF your H asked, WOULD you tell him about the marriage plans, or the great sex, or the 5x in one night, or would you lie?? I mean, ask your H, DOES HE WANT TO KNOW?? Let him decide, NOT you. <BR>***************<BR>He DID ask about some things. I did tell him honestly. When he asked if the sex was great, I just said "yes." I DID NOT say "It was SO Fabulous! I've never had a man respond to me like that!!" Both of those are the truth, but which do you think most would rather hear? I would answer anything he would ask me. But he hasn't asked much more and has hinted that he doesn't want to know much more. So that is HIS decision. I think he is trying to forget those images so he doesn't need "pictures painted for him." And I DO believe that there are a few things that I do have a right to keep to myself (even if they are things that are wrong). <P>How did it get to the point where being married meant sharing the same brain anyway???? I think everyone needs their own thoughts and feelings. My H and I entered our marriage with the idea that we are still two individuals. We both like our space and our time. We like our freedom. Granted, me having the affair has made him less comfortable with MY freedom. But we still wish to have bits of solitude and space in our recovery and in our "ideal marriage" that we are working towards. My thoughts are my own and I will not let anyone say that everything I think and feel has to be poured through my husband in order to determine if it is okay or not. Welcome to the 21st century.

The wisdom of having a marriage with "freedom" to think and do without the spouse's knowledge speaks for itself in snobird's marriage. Freedom is an excellent concept for government, but oneness is the concept that makes happy and intimate marriages. (I'm not talking here about marriages which only last until one person "outgrows" the other.)<P>After my husband's affair I was galled to know that he and she had shared memories of which I knew nothing. I want my husband's life to be an open book to me, and I couldn't bear even his memories to be closed to me. He told me everything I asked, and yes, much of it caused me great pain. HOWEVER, now there is no shadow of secrecy between us and I feel more free of his affair than I could've supposed in this short time (3 months post d-day). If he had wanted to keep some memories from me, I would've felt that his desire to rebuild the marriage wasn't 100%.<P>Rose Red

In regards to hiding and lying, please know BS's that it happens for a lot of reasons.<P>When my A started, I had absolutely no intention of ever leaving my H. My marriage wasn't all it could be, but I was committed and would never have thought of leaving. In fact, I told OM all of that. It was simply exciting to have someone flirt and desire me. And I hid it all from H, because he of course would make it go away. And there was no excitement to take its place.<P>I thought I could control it. I didn't want to hurt H. I just wanted this excitement for "me". That way I could continue in our marriage without facing the problems, because I thought I had found a little solution (OM met my needs) And I thought it was safe because it was EA only.<BR>(telephone, online)<P>I got more and more involved. OM loved me. I love him. We started making plans to meet. I planned this still thinking that I would never really leave my marriage. It was just a "fling" and H would never know.<P>Once we were physically and emotionally involved, I just couldn't give up my relationship with OM. Our feelings grew deeper. He wanted a future with me. In comparison, the relationship with him had so much more potential happiness than my marriage. Of course I focused so much more on the problems with H. Everything with him was negative and everything with OM was so good.<P>Then the lying turned to being afraid. I knew that it would cause a storm I couldn't control. However, it was too much to hide. H eventually found out, although it took him a long long time (more than a year) to really understand, and for me to disclose (truthfully) enough for him to know I was in a EA/PA. <P>I lied every chance I got. And every time I did, I thought he would never find out more. Because I would be so much more careful. But more and more came out -- but it was slowly.<P>SEM -- if KS is coming to you, rather than you chasing down more, its a sign that she wants to commit to the principals and start from an honest place. Be grateful for that.<P>

Snobird,<P>Why would you tell them what they want ot hear. Why not be completly honest?<BR>My H (sem) said that he wants to love me for who I am not for what I make him think I am. Hope that made since.<p>[This message has been edited by Keep Smiling (edited September 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR>[B]<P>When my A started, I had absolutely no intention of ever leaving my H. My marriage wasn't all it could be, but I was committed and would never have thought of leaving. In fact, I told OM all of that. It was simply exciting to have someone flirt and desire me. And I hid it all from H, because he of course would make it go away. And there was no excitement to take its place.<P>I thought I could control it. I didn't want to hurt H. I just wanted this excitement for "me". That way I could continue in our marriage without facing the problems, because I thought I had found a little solution (OM met my needs) <P>I got more and more involved. OM loved me. We started making plans to meet. I planned this still thinking that I would never really leave my marriage. It was just a "fling" and H would never know.<BR> Of course I focused so much more on the problems with H. Everything with him was negative and everything with OM was so good.<P>Then the lying turned to being afraid. I knew that it would cause a storm I couldn't control. However, it was too much to hide. H eventually found out, although it took him a long long time (more than a year) to really understand, and for me to disclose (truthfully) enough for him to know I was in a EA/PA. <P>I lied every chance I got. And every time I did, I thought he would never find out more. Because I would be so much more careful. But more and more came out -- but it was slowly.<P>[B] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is how I pretty much felt. Mine wasn't that E, but there was some. I don't even remember having anything in common with him. <P>The C thinks that my past played a roll in my A's. She thinks that's why there wasn't much E, why they were just sex.<BR>SEM dosen't understand that. I don't think he even believes that. It makes since to me, but why not him?

KS,<P> You may have missed what I believe SEM really meant(or maybe I got it wrong). While it is true that we(BS)truely want to love WS for what they really are. It is probably more accurate to state that we want and need to be allowed to make our own minds up as to whether or not we can love the real you.<P> Without ALL the necessary information about important things in the past of our WS, we are being manipulated to love. It isn't real. It isn't built on a rock solid foundation. <P> I ask you to think about what Erics reaction would be if you were to tell him there is more. Now that he thinks/hopes/prays that this is all. <P> That is why I say the WS should be totally forthcoming from the VERY beginning. To do otherwise will crush him time and time again. Until he cannot take any more.<P> I say answer ALL questions your mate might have, from the start. Let that mate determine if he/she can live with that/you. Then both of you take your M forward from that point on.<P> Hope I did not upset you. Both of you know how much I am pulling for your marriage.<P> jd

Jd,<BR>No you don't upset me in any way.SEM said yesterday "that he wants to love me for who I am not what I want him to think." I don't think I will ever forget this. I have finally told him everything. My black cloud is lifting away. I feel that God has forgiven me, know I pray that in time he will forgie me.<BR>I have nothing left to hide, I feel good. Yet I hurt for my H.

KS,<P> You are on the right track. Please remember that sooner or later you must forgive youself as well. Then you two can truly be happy. <P> It will be hard for SEM, really hard. Just have patience and show the love we all know you have for him. I hope my W will do the same for me. <P> jd

Ok, I just read Lexy's post and KS's response to that. <P>The one thing I just don't get, is I went through the same period. We were short on money, we lived in a small home, and had only one reliable car. I did everything I could, even got a second job. I wasn't getting sex at home, my W didn't do much with me, she was more interested in going out with friends (or now I know they were boyfriends ) I wasn't getting my EN's fullfilled, and I wasn't that happy either. I didn't go off and fullfill my needs for sex or companionship, or any of that, I stayed faithful. I was always honest. I am not perfect, but I knew I loved my W and I held up to the promise that I would love her, support her, and be faithful and honest with her while she went out and had fun. Must be nice to just go off and make yourself happy when your H who did nothing but kill himself trying to make a home for you and your child. And, while he was honest and trying to make a life for the both of you, you decide "I want something for myself, I want something exciting". <P>Ok still very angry, I think I need to take a pill or something, Don't mean to affend anyone here but I just see that reasoning as very selfish. I have to end here, I am punching the keys to hard I might brake the keyboard.

I guess what I am wondering is; Is there only ONE kind of marriage? What someone says works, does it work for one and all???<P>I'm going to start a new thread for this discussion. Go to: Is there only one way to be married.

To Sem,<P>I just read your last message and there is nothing I can disagree with you on. Only you can decide how you wish to live your life and who you wish to live it with. I would think it would be almost impossible to be in a marriage if fundamentally you no longer have respect for your spouse. I wish you luck no matter what you decide.

I know what i did was selfish, I know I don't have any excuse for what i did. I know it was wrong. I was 19 at the time, and I wasn't sure what i wanted in life. It happened to fast. It took something dispecable to happen for me to relize what i want. i want you SEM. I have been faithful for 4 yrs since then. I'm sorry that I did, I'm so sorry. i wish I could go back, but I can't. I do regret what I did. I am so so sorry . I do love you. and I hope you will come back and love me the same.

SEM, SEM, SEM...<P>Easy Killer, I have lots of keyboards at home, If you break that one. LOL Just kidding, listen I have been wondering where you 2 have been hanging out at. I know how you feel about all this and it is something that I would never understand if it were me. But maybe it would help if you guys just go away and try to find something fun to do. You know maybe get your mind off things, and get away from your freinds, her freinds. Heck I'm not sure where you live but I would be glad to bring you up to my hidaway in the woods up north in Michigan. We could even set up a torture chamber....(I'm just kidding! OK) Really you guys are my freinds and I just am trying to make light of this situation. Please don't take offense.<P>TG

HurtAgain,<P>Thank you you did get a laugh out of me. Yes, it is kind of hard to get away right now. We have pretty much spent all of our savings and vacation to take time off and go on mini vacations trying to rebuild our marriage. Now, I know that was all based on lies. I am having a hard time righ now with all this. I am very full of anger at this point. I don't like being like this, but it is kind of hard to control. <P>I do thank KS for finaly telling the whole truth, but sometimes I feel it is a little too late, or should I say too little too late. I am angry, I am angry because I was falsly dragged into this so called recovery, and told over and over that the whole truth was out. I feel like I am a fool. I look back and see how stupid I was to be so honest with her, and faithful to her. I am not happy right now.<P>I know what you all might be thinging, this guy is over reacting, maybe I am. My life was played with like I was nothing, and the whole time she was everything to me. Ok, I should just stop venting and try to be more constructive, but I just don't care right now, I really don't. I am not being outright mean to KS, but I just don't feel much interest right now. <P>I honesly don't feel much love for her right now. I hope I get that feeling back, but she has just kept her distance and says she isn't going to come around if she doesn't feel wanted. Well, that is what I get out for being so good to her these past two months. She didn't really let all the plan A stuff sink in. <P>I know I am the one that should be plan Aing but If I don't care right now, maybe she should pick up where I left off if she really wants our marriage....dont you all think?<P>Ok I am done venting, I hope, I didn't want to use this BB to get into pi55ing contests with KS so I will stop. Sorry everyone.