Sorry for this SEM, on your thread.<P>SNL....it is now 3,.25am in the morning here, and I have read all your justifications on this trhead, and I just think to myself....more WS fog.<P>Sorry, but that is how you come across to me, a wall up even to us, and I think you must be very hard to live with, because you ARE a hard person...who cares what anyone thinks? <P>You can justify what YOU believe, so you are right...the pain of a BS is NEVER to be belittled...you, WS, did unspeakable things in the protection of this FOG, and then come back to justify it whatever way you can. Me, bitter? Maybe, but YOU are downright nasty....SEM was CLEARLY asking for a different kind of support from the kind you gave...PLEASE remember what I said before, about kid gloves. I don't expect molly coddling, but you are HARSH!!! Many, many times I have read what you think and I wonder what keeps thinker drawn to you.<P>Well, there's some harsh words for you!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B><P><BR>snl...I don't know. I do care about her, but I don't know what love is anymore.<P>KS...What do you mean " you don't know what love is anymore?"<P>snl...No. I am open to a new one though. The old one was toxic, and beyond repair.<P>KS...So does that mean you want to stay with your W or move on?<P>snl...yes. She was not some trash, and neither am I.<P>KS...No one ever called you trash or any one else. I may call myself trash due to low self esteem. I may call the O Men trash because I am angry and hurt.<P>snl...No. (stopped a month ago).<P>KS...Do you regret it? Would you want to keep contact going?<P> SNL..Ya know ks, sometimes we are just married to the wrong people, not cause they (or we) are bad or defective, just cause we don't fit, and never will. <P>KS...So do you feel you you married the wrong individual? Why suffer if you are not happy?<P>SNL.. So what do we do? Give up our dreams so we don't hurt someone? Don't we count too? Or are we just supposed to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good? <P>KS...If your are not happy, don't you think your W would feel better if she let you go so you can be happy? Are you sacrificing because you want to? I know SEM told be before that if I was not happy in our M and I wanted out, then he would let me go. He said he would rather see me happy with someone else then be miserable with him. Now I call that love.<P>SNL... Let me ask you a question (the same one I ask many folks). Sem is just a guy could be anyone, you could easily find another H, so why do you love him? Is it sem you really love, or is it the marriage you love? <P>KS...I really love SEM. I love him because he is positive, because he is a good father to our children, he is devishly handsom, he makes me laugh, he is my best friend and now knows everything about me more than any one else on the planet, we share many memories, we have lots in common, we want the same out of life, we agree on the same issue's, he is affectionate, sincer and faithful, and he stands by myside nomatter if I am right or wrong.<P>SNL...Are you settling for sem cause you figure he is the best you can get (and he may be a very good guy, not saying he isn't). But how do you know there is not someone you would fit better, and be in-love with in that special way of oneflesh? <P>KS...SEM was not my first love, I feel in love at a young age with someone who didn't love me. He also wasn't on the good side of the law. I know that I did'nt want my life to be like his. I am with SEM cause I know he is the best any woman could ever get. I was with 4 other men(A's), and several before we were ever together, don't you think I would know if I fit with someone. Maybe that was why I had the A's was to make sure he was my fit. I hate that it took something like that ot make me relize it though.<BR> <BR>SNL..Clearly there was some serious issues, or you would have not done what you did, you did not bond with sem when married, why now? <P>KS...That is why I'm in C. I think some of it was that we married at such a young age, that I wasn't ready to settle down. I knew from the moment I looked at SEM, he was the man for me, I just wasn't ready to stop and grow up at 15.<BR> <BR>SNL...An affair is rarely about just the person (you are not a sex addict, right? or have some other personality disorder), it is about the relationship too. People who are "in-love" do not have affairs.<P>KS...You may be right. My C thinks it has to do with my childhood. Were you sexually assaulted as a child?<P>SNL.. What if sem can never meet your EN in the way you want them met...what then? Or does it truly make no difference who we are married too, <P>KS... That is what we are working on. I am learning how to communicate when my needs are not being met, not just run away like I did before. Yes I agree that we are ment to fit, and it does make a difference.<P>SNL...everyone on this board could just swap spouses, all committ to meeting EN for two years, and we would be happily married to that new person? That is what the MB principles imply, and frankly it scares the heck out of me.<BR> <BR>KS...What scares you?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So would you rather be with your W or with OW? Do you feel that your W and you don't fit?<P>SEM is only angry now because I had lied to him for 3 months about the 3 other A's. He is truley hurt. I love him him from the bottom of my heart. I love him from the bottom of my toes to the tip of me nose. he does not yell, he is not abusive verbilly or physically. We he looks at me it is not an angry look, it is a sad look, a hurt look.

Yes SNL I have come to a point in my life where I say what I feel and believe. I usually try to do so without being hurtful. <P>------z...Remember that the WS is usually very ashamed and torn up by their behavior. They usually do not understand it themselves. <P>------snl...I think that is overstated, and a feel good bs thing. There is some guilt present, but it varies alot, and they can understand it if they will do the work, but oft times will not. Either out of conflict avoidance, or passive'aggressive behaviour. I think ws should be confronted on the whys until they (and bs) figure it out<P>No SNL this is NOT a feel good BS thing. What I have noticed is that the marriages that can recover the quickest are those in which the WS feels guilt and remorse for their affair. The ones we see here where the WS drags on and on in the affair and the tortures the BS with thier lack of caring/remorse/etc are the most pathilogical cases. They are the marriages least likely to recover. <P>So in your case there may not be much remorse, etc. Warrented or not, this hinders your recovery.<P>-----snl....That is fine, and is not baloney. Had you made selfish demands though, or disrespectful judgements you would also be worong.<P>It is also very important that the WS not make selfish demands. What I have learned from this experience is that what holds for one spouse holds for both of them. If STL had behaved in the manner of many of the WS on his site, yourself included (no disrespect intended), I would not have stayed one minute longer. He almost distroyed our marriage with his affairs, but he saved it by being the man I thought I had married. He also made no selfish demand for me to put up with his awful behavior.<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<P>snl...I don't know. I do care about her, but I don't know what love is anymore.<P>KS...What do you mean " you don't know what love is anymore?"<P>.........SNL...Just that KS, what is it? I am supposed to love my w, yet I haven't felt "in-love" for our entire marriage, and definitely nothing for last 5 years, just putting in my time, she was no happier. No one was mistreating anyone, she just didn't like me and said so....and the truth is, I didn't like her much either. Now I am told if I just do it...act like I am in-love, I will be...that doesn't compute.<P>snl...No. I am open to a new one though. The old one was toxic, and beyond repair.<P>KS...So does that mean you want to stay with your W or move on?<P>.............SNL...... I wanted us to divorce, cause we do not bring the best out of each other. Now that is in limbo, as we try to alter out behaviour, and see what happens.<P>snl...yes. She was not some trash, and neither am I.<P>KS...No one ever called you trash or any one else. I may call myself trash due to low self esteem. I may call the O Men trash because I am angry and hurt.<P>.............SNL.......People regularly trash the op here, did not mean anyone in particular. There is the sense the op is never a worthy marital partner, that is not always true.<P>snl...No. (stopped a month ago).<P>KS...Do you regret it? Would you want to keep contact going?<P>.............SNL....No I don't regret it stopping, you cannot maintain 2 relationships. I would not want to keep the contact going. We need to resolve our marriages first. <P>snl..Ya know ks, sometimes we are just married to the wrong people, not cause they (or we) are bad or defective, just cause we don't fit, and never will. <P>KS...So do you feel you you married the wrong individual? Why suffer if you are not happy?<P>.........SNL...yes I did, and so did she. I am not good for her either.<P>snl.. So what do we do? Give up our dreams so we don't hurt someone? Don't we count too? Or are we just supposed to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good? <P>KS...If your are not happy, don't you think your W would feel better if she let you go so you can be happy? Are you sacrificing because you want to? I know SEM told be before that if I was not happy in our M and I wanted out, then he would let me go. He said he would rather see me happy with someone else then be miserable with him. Now I call that love.<P>.......SNL...That is a tough question ks. If she would let me go and be ok, I'd probably go (for both our sakes). But she won't be ok, and is very hard for me to hurt her, easier to just give up and make the best of it. I don't fully understand this myself, maybe I am just a coward. She has said the same, just go, but she doesn't mean it, and I suspect sem didn't either. BS often say this, but then put so much pressure on to make it work, and are obviously very distressed if you were to leave.<P>snl... Let me ask you a question (the same one I ask many folks). Sem is just a guy could be anyone, you could easily find another H, so why do you love him? Is it sem you really love, or is it the marriage you love? <P>KS...I really love SEM. I love him because he is positive, because he is a good father to our children, he is devishly handsom, he makes me laugh, he is my best friend and now knows everything about me more than any one else on the planet, we share many memories, we have lots in common, we want the same out of life, we agree on the same issue's, he is affectionate, sincere and faithful, and he stands by myside no matter if I am right or wrong.<P>........SNL..Sounds nice.<P>......snl...Are you settling for sem cause you figure he is the best you can get (and he may be a very good guy, not saying he isn't). But how do you know there is not someone you would fit better, and be in-love with in that special way of oneflesh? <P>KS...SEM was not my first love, I feel in love at a young age with someone who didn't love me. He also wasn't on the good side of the law. I know that I did'nt want my life to be like his. I am with SEM cause I know he is the best any woman could ever get. <P>.........SNL...Hmm, if he is the best any woman can get, does that mean all the other women have had to settle for 2nd (or worse) best?...ok, I know there is no answer to that.<P>ks..I was with 4 other men(A's), and several before we were ever together, don't you think I would know if I fit with someone. Maybe that was why I had the A's was to make sure he was my fit. I hate that it took something like that ot make me relize it though.<P>.......SNL... Not much of a sample, and not high quality guys at that. But be that as it may, you obviously had way too much activity at a very young age, and your experience serves to illustrate why young people should not be in serious romantic/sexual relationships until probably mid-20's.<P>SNL..Clearly there was some serious issues, or you would have not done what you did, you did not bond with sem when married, why now? <P>KS...That is why I'm in C. I think some of it was that we married at such a young age, that I wasn't ready to settle down. I knew from the moment I looked at SEM, he was the man for me, I just wasn't ready to stop and grow up at 15.<P>.......SNL... You got married/engaged at 15? Holy smokes, no wonder there was trouble. Very ill-advised, but hopefully after a shakey start will all end well, sadly for most it does not.<P>SNL...An affair is rarely about just the person (you are not a sex addict, right? or have some other personality disorder), it is about the relationship too. People who are "in-love" do not have affairs.<P>KS...You may be right. My C thinks it has to do with my childhood. Were you sexually assaulted as a child?<P>........SNL....No, I don't think so. But I did have a chaotic childhood.<P>SNL...everyone on this board could just swap spouses, all committ to meeting EN for two years, and we would be happily married to that new person? That is what the MB principles imply, and frankly it scares the heck out of me.<P>KS...What scares you?<P>.....SNL....That it may not make any difference who we are married too. That we truly are not individuals, that we only need to be programmed in whatever way someone wants us to be. That we really can't think for ourselves, and our feelings really don't count. <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>So would you rather be with your W or with OW? Do you feel that your W and you don't fit?<P>SEM is only angry now because I had lied to him for 3 months about the 3 other A's. He is truley hurt. I love him him from the bottom of my heart. I love him from the bottom of my toes to the tip of me nose. he does not yell, he is not abusive verbilly or physically. We he looks at me it is not an angry look, it is a sad look, a hurt look.<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>zorweb<BR>Member posted September 16, 2001 01:21 PM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Yes SNL I have come to a point in my life where I say what I feel and believe. I usually try to do so without being hurtful. <BR>------z...Remember that the WS is usually very ashamed and torn up by their behavior. They usually do not understand it themselves. <P>------snl...I think that is overstated, and a feel good bs thing. There is some guilt present, but it varies alot, and they can understand it if they will do the work, but oft times will not. Either out of conflict avoidance, or passive'aggressive behaviour. I think ws should be confronted on the whys until they (and bs) figure it out<P>No SNL this is NOT a feel good BS thing. What I have noticed is that the marriages that can recover the quickest are those in which the WS feels guilt and remorse for their affair. The ones we see here where the WS drags on and on in the affair and the tortures the BS with thier lack of caring/remorse/etc are the most pathilogical cases. They are the marriages least likely to recover. <P>So in your case there may not be much remorse, etc. Warrented or not, this hinders your recovery.<P>-----snl....That is fine, and is not baloney. Had you made selfish demands though, or disrespectful judgements you would also be worong.<P>It is also very important that the WS not make selfish demands. What I have learned from this experience is that what holds for one spouse holds for both of them. If STL had behaved in the manner of many of the WS on his site, yourself included (no disrespect intended), I would not have stayed one minute longer. He almost distroyed our marriage with his affairs, but he saved it by being the man I thought I had married. He also made no selfish demand for me to put up with his awful behavior.<P><BR>------------------<P> <BR>

Wow! This was very interesting and informative to read. It sure hit home.<P>I have had the unfortunate experiences of being a BS and WS. So, I see both points of views.<P>SEM, KS says you are not using the anger negatively, but I do think it is hindering the recovery of your M and blocking your love bank deposits. Not feeling any love for KS.......well, that has got to hurt. I felt the same for my H whom over 10 years had over 30 A's. I regretably had 1 A too. Other factors make it hard to recover, but my A is the balk cause of my H's struggle to make it work. My H's financial irresponsibility is my struggle. <P>We too married at a young age. He too had a horrindous childhood. We believe that we married for the wrong circumstances....pregnancy. We loved each other, we agree on that, but love sometimes is just not enough. We changed along the way.<P>I hope that you two make it, but I fear that your anger, SEM, will be the demise of your M. You have every right to be angry, but SnL does have a point....Do you want to be with KS or not? If you are setting limits with the anger, great, but don't you think KS has the right to limits too? Or, do you think she gave up those rights when she cheated?<P>KS, are you expressing your regret and remorse? Have you expressed all those good things you said about SEM to him, not only with words, but with actions? It is so neat to see you both post on MB and that is a good therapy. Do you voice your thoughts to each other as much as you post? <P>I guess the only thing that sticks out with me is SEM saying he looks at KS but without love. That is deep. It hurt me just reading it. The last d-day for us was...sometime at the beginning of this year. I actually found out about his last affair over 2 years ago. He kept up an EA..PA(he denies) with the last one until just 4 months ago, so he says. I don't bother myself with it anymore.<P>I deal with it all better than he does though. I don't bring up the A's, mine or his, anymore. He does though. He expresses his anger all the time, sometimes verbally, by his actions, or just by the way he looks at me. It is tearing us apart. I finally gave into the fact that we are all wrong for each other or we just have alot to....fix, with ourselves before we can be together. <P>We came to accept that we are two beings with different needs. He can't be me nor I him. We are different in everyway. We then examined why we married...separately. We agreed that one of us had more "issues" to deal with than the other and that maybe a Plan B is our best hope of ever making this M work. We are scared but we both know that either way it goes, we will be okay. We are even showing signs of being "in love" again. <P>So, I know KS gets sensitive with the being apart aspect of it, but what do you feel? Why are you actually choosing to work on the M if you feel no love for KS? My guess, the hope of its return and your forgiveness? I am not saying leave, cause everyone's situations and how they handle them are different, but IMO, maybe a little space may do some good. Same goes for you, SnL, if you are reading this.<P>Everyone posts in their own way and all posts, whether soft or harsh, help, IMO. It just gives you different perspectives on things and opens up other possibilities. God never gives us more than we can handle and without the possibility of things, what do we have?<P>Grieve SEM, but not forever. Work on yourself KS and find what it is you are looking for. It is possible, that the two of you married for two different reasons and that you didn't really know each other let alone yourselves. Now that you've grown a little, maybe you have to get to know each other again. There are many possibilities. Look at them all. <P>Whatever the outcome, your M can't go on this way. It has forever been changed and now what are you going to do about it? <P>Good luck you two,<BR>Clouds<BR>

SnL, <P>I do thank you for your point of view, and I thank you all for your support. I am still trying to make sense of you, but that is hard to do. I do find it difficult to handle reading your posts in how you are very cold and calculated in getting your point accross. I do believe many, including myself, think you may be a little too cold, and perhaps you should try to work on that.<P>I admit I am wollowing in my self pity, I am depressed to a degree and I felt I was a strong person before all this. I was abused as a child, and I also wittnessed very abusive marriages with both my parents. I moved across the country between 15 to 20 times before I turned 17. After this child hood I felt I was strong willed and I didn't feel much emotion. I have been through a lot. <P>I have always dreamed, as you said you did, of a perfect and happy family from the time I was a small child as well. I thought I had that going for me until recently. I have worked very hard on what I have in my life, material wise and relationship wise, and that all seems to be based on lies. I feel everything I have dreamed and hoped for and worked for is all waivering, and possibly not anymore. For this I am angry, and hurt. <P>You said it is to be expected for the BS to go through anger and pain, but for how long. I only learned of these other As on the 11, or 5 days ago today. I think for a little while I can feel anger...I did the first time I learned of her 1 A, and that only lasted a day. This time it is different, she lead me through 3 months of hell with lies. I now know I have to do it all over again. Yes, I am angry, Actually I need to change my tone, I am starting to lose my feelings of anger but they are still present. I do not plan to wollow in my self pitty forever, I am however full of these emotions and I think it will take me some time before these Emotions subside. I plan, or should I say I hope to plan to work on my marriage when I have the energy. <P>Also for the record, we didn't marry at the age of 15. We met when she was 15, and waited 4 years to get married. Yes, we were young, and you are correct that marrying that young doesn't give us much of a chance. I feel she has grown up a lot, and we actually grew up together to a degree. I do see being so young did play a part in these problems we are experiencing now. I do however feel we can work through them and not waist the 8 years we have been together, and move on in our lives and marriage together.

INTHECLOUDS,<P>I think you are right, in that I am staying to see if I get the love back and hopefully forgive. I had come to terms with the 1 A I had learned about, but these other 3 are hard to deal with. I felt I had the 1 A figured out, like why and how and I felt I understood how you could fall into a situation like that. These other As are something totally different, she just gave away sex like it ment nothing. I am much more understanding when you fall into a relationship with someone that is just a friend, but I don't have much understanding when you just go and have sex with someone that you have no feelings for. That is insulting to me and our marriage. I don't feel that these As were a mistake like the first one, these were intentional and thought out. That to me is a big difference. I am hoping to find a way to deal with this and a way to write it off, so that I can move on.<P>Yes, I have real problems feeling love for my W, and the only thing that is keeping me right now is remembering those feelings I had for her. I am starting to come around...I didn't want to leave her when I went to work this morning....that was a good sign. I am hoping my lost feeling of love for her is only a defense thing or maybe my anger and other emotions are getting in the way. I don't know, either way, It is a scary feeling to not feel love for someone you have felt nothing but love for for 8 years.<P>Thank you for your insight.<BR>

Sem, <P>I think we (Bss) battle so hard we often suffer from battle fatigue after the A war. Yet, we never would have thought we would feel like this. I understand. You know what? Me too. <P>In a sense (I know SNL really upset many here), but he brought out a common thread between you and KS. You both defended each other here. This is good, all is not lost. <P>Remember that Sem, all is not lost. You have your wife with you, some days will be tougher than others but I'll bet right now, if you hug her, she will smile . If I am wrong, then call em up and yell at me!!! LOL!<P>Look around Sem, many wish they were even 1/2 way to where you are KS are. You will get better and be one of those vetern posters. We love to hear those stories. Stick around and be there to post one ok? <P>Take Care, <BR>L. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<P>...SNL...Just that KS, what is it? I am supposed to love my w, yet I haven't felt "in-love" for our entire marriage, and definitely nothing for last 5 years, just putting in my time, she was no happier. No one was mistreating anyone, she just didn't like me and said so....and the truth is, I didn't like her much either. Now I am told if I just do it...act like I am in-love, I will be...that doesn't compute.<P>KS) So if you both are unhappy why are you staying together?<P>.............SNL...... I wanted us to divorce, cause we do not bring the best out of each other. Now that is in limbo, as we try to alter out behaviour, and see what happens.<P>KS) How long do you both plan to do this for? And what is the purpose of this?<P>.........SNL...yes I did, and so did she. I am not good for her either.<P>KS) So why are you sticking this out if you both are unhappy?<P>.......SNL...That is a tough question ks. If she would let me go and be ok, I'd probably go (for both our sakes). But she won't be ok, and is very hard for me to hurt her, easier to just give up and make the best of it. I don't fully understand this myself, maybe I am just a coward. She has said the same, just go, but she doesn't mean it, and I suspect sem didn't either. BS often say this, but then put so much pressure on to make it work, and are obviously very distressed if you were to leave.<P>KS) But you said that neither of you are happy!? Are the two of you going to C?<P>.........SNL...Hmm, if he is the best any woman can get, does that mean all the other women have had to settle for 2nd (or worse) best?...ok, I know there is no answer to that.<P>KS) LOL your funny! NO he is the kind of man the alot of woman dream of having, to spend the rest of their lives with. Of course I'm sure there are many other men out there like him, I don't know, nor do I care cause I love him.<P>.......SNL... Not much of a sample, and not high quality guys at that. But be that as it may, you obviously had way too much activity at a very young age, and your experience serves to illustrate why young people should not be in serious romantic/sexual relationships until probably mid-20's.<P>KS)Well that's why both parents need to be apart of their children's lives. Another reason to have children in sports, activities, something that keeps them busy and you know what they are doing and where they are.<P>.......SNL... You got married/engaged at 15? Holy smokes, no wonder there was trouble. Very ill-advised, but hopefully after a shakey start will all end well, sadly for most it does not.<P>KS) No, No No, We started dating when I was 15 and SEM was 17, then we got married 3 yrs later when I was 18. Still young. I wouldn't let my kids.<P>.......SNL....No, I don't think so. But I did have a chaotic childhood.<P>KS) How so if you don't mind my asking?<P>SNL....That it may not make any difference who we are married too. That we truly are not individuals, that we only need to be programmed in whatever way someone wants us to be. That we really can't think for ourselves, and our feelings really don't count. <P>KS)I think you are looking at it all wrong. We all know that we will always be individuals, even as we are married. That is also what attracts us to other's (individualism). For instance, I am a total goof ball, I have a Child like sense of humor but everyone at work loves me, so does my H. He knows I am a spaz.<BR>We are not being programmed, we are learning how to make our M's last. You see, Our parents, our teacher's, No one ever prepared us for M, or life and how to fix anything E, so when try to learn and hopefully share and pass this new learned education down to our children. Our feelings do count, we are very emotional beings and that is a wonderful gift. We just have to becareful with this gift. I ask you again, Are you and your W going to C? <BR>You seem so full of pain.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

INTHECLOUDS320,<BR>Funny how you said it hit home. We did get pregnant when I was 18, but we were together 3 yrs prior, So I don't condsider it a shotgun wedding.<P>Wow 30 A's. That must be rough on you. Do you regret having had an A as well?<P>DO you think his childhood played a roll in him having an A?<P> Or, do you think she gave up those rights when she cheated?<BR>I feel this way. <P>KS, are you expressing your regret and remorse? Have you expressed all those good things you said about SEM to him, not only with words, but with actions? It is so neat to see you both post on MB and that is a good therapy. Do you voice your thoughts to each other as much as you post? <P>If you consider saying "sorry"every day, so many times a day. I try to hug and hold him but it's hard when he is stand-offish, ya know.<BR>Thanks, WE love to come to MB's. Our recovery is to communicate everything. We work oppisit scheduels, so sometimes the only chance we get to communicate is posting some.<BR>When you said get to know yourself (in other words) I am going to C for my self esteem. Hopefully then I can be a more positive and better W.<P>I hope that the two of you do fall in love again and know more about eachother's EN. Sherry<BR>

SEM and KS, you both posting here makes me smile Keep it up. <P>SEM, stick it out. My H dropped a list of A's on me after the 1st d-day. I went through 4 years of suspicion, lies, deceit, and cheating. He gave me an actual list of names and dates. Regardless of him just with them for sex or having a long term thing, it all felt the same to me. The last one lived in my house with him for months. Drove my car, cooked in my kitchen, slept in my bed, heck....practically replaced me. Talk about living the fantasy. <P>I made it through though. I don't know how, but I did. By then we had been married 8 years. We had alot of history together too. Although we weren't actually "in love" anymore, the feeling of love was still there. The hope kept us going. <P>Hold onto that hope. Repair the damage. Accept the change and start anew. Stick with it you two. Either way it goes, atleast you can come away with the feeling that you both did your best to make it work. You will come out of this stronger, wiser, and as friends. Your faith would have grown too. Change is good sometimes. Hang in there.<P>In my prayers,<BR>Clouds

SnL,<P>I continually puzzle over your posts. They are so negative and so anti-betrayed spouse and marriage. I keep asking you why you post here and you never answer. I keep asking why you remain married when you have nothing good to say about your marriage. Then you posted a series of things and I think I am getting a glimpse. You are very opposed to any show of emotion and view such a display as a threat and hence cohersion on the part of the BS. What you fail to take into account is that marriage is not a contract. It is a mix of logic and emotional attachment. When the spouse does something that is illogical (lie) and then show no emotional attachment it hurts. It hurts at a deep emotional level and healthy people give vent to these emotions. Unhealthy people either suppress these emotions or they carry them to extremes. I sense you have a difficult time differentiating between showing emotions and cohersion.<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for mistreatment, I think such sentiments are self-serving (and believe me, I use to wallow in this stuff for years, by any standard I was sorely mistreated by my w). But I came to understand feeling mistreated was a waste of time, and only served to motivate me to fight back. Instead I shifted to trying to understand the behaviour, first to ascertain whether it really was mistreatment (often an eye of beholder thingy), and then to understand why, and finally what to do about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Besides she wasn't really mistreating you was she? Based on the next statement it was simply your misinterpretation of her feeling. No need to feel down, really no need for an affair either. But nevertheless despite your dispassionate view of the human condition you did just that and now are still emotionally attached to the OW.<P>SnL what bothers me about your postings is your complete disregard for the fact that BS does have feelings and self esteem and both are being badly damaged by the affair. You answer is get over it, yet you didn't do that. You had an affair, and worse didn't divorce a woman who apparently treated you poorly. Yet, you won't work on the marriage either, just were does your logic take you? It seems it has take you into limbo.<P>You get down on the Harley's approach because it seems formulistic and then make comments that you could or anyone could just apply their approach and love anyone. You of course are twisting this to meet the purposes of your "logic" but you have missed a very important point. Rebuilding a marriage is not the same as falling in love with a complete stranger. It is assumed that at one time there was a deep love for one another or the marriage wouldn't have occured. Therefore the process is to see if this love can be reignited. This is not about two strangers. The Harley's are not in the match making business.<P>In your case where you claim the marriage had no love. You could care less about the institution of marriage and the constraints you feel it unfairly places on you particularly the vows, I suspect the Harley's would recommend that you divorce. I have said it before and I will say it here, I don't understand why you don't do this.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>snl...It is your opinion she was more interested. And that is a trivialization of some complex psychological interactions between you, but it served the purpose of self-pity, woe is me, and that affects your actions, usually not in a good way IMO. As for SF EN, you may know how I feel about that from my threads, I don't think it is an EN to be met, I think it is a reflection of love, and the quality of the marriage, in other words you always get exactly the amount of sex you should be getting (deserve) although it may not be what you want. As for going out to find op, neither did your wife (probably, unless she is a sex addict),what she did do is choose op when the circumstances enabled her to, again that is the consequence of a whole lot of things, and as you noted you both played a role. Is it fair? Of course not, by the unreasonable expectations we make of marriage (which said expectations gaurantee affairs, but that is another thread). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You think it is unreasonable for someone to turn down the opportunity to just go out and have sex JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED. You think it is unreasonable for SEM to expect KS to be faithful, just BECAUSE SHE MADE A VOW BEFORE GOD AND FAMILY. If you believe this, why the Heck are you married??? Why are you even pretending to rebuild a marriage. SNL this sounds so much like WS double speak. I suppose you had no plans to marry the OW. I mean why bother you aren't going to uphold your promises and apparently you don't expect her to do so.<P>Sadly, you view of the marriage is not what a marriage is and what in fact do promise to do. Even more interestingly in very corner of this planet, whatever form a marriage takes commitment is part of the process.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>IMO an affair is often as much (if not more) about the failure of the marriage than it is the individual....and yes, one can blow that off cause I am a ws, but believe it or not, even ws have brains and can think, and that is my intellectual assessment of human behaviour. Being a ws is not something to be desired, but if one is there, one can use the experience to learn, and I have learned alot. Same for bs, and in most part, I think we are learning the same things. I am not defending affairs, or lieing. Clearly ks made a significant error in her life, and did betray you. Concealing it sure gives concern that she is a major conflict avoider, and maybe even that she is opportunistic, and incapable of loving anyone but herself. As I understand it, she never did admit it, you figured it out and pressured her. Now she is remorseful, but one can only wonder how remorseful (willing to change herself permanently) she really is, vs just giving you what you want cause it is in her immediate interest to do so, and dumping you 10 years from now or something. I sure don't mean to minimize your concerns, they are huge, but the anger does not help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But you then proceed to do exactly that you SEM and others. You do mimimize his concerns. Further, you fail to recognize that anger, fear, sadness, and other emotions are a natural response to the break up of a serious relationship. Yours appears to have never had much of an emotional attachment. An anamoly for sure.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If she is to heal, if you are to have her uncoerced love, she must be totally free to do so, not fearful of hurting or angering you. You are setting up bad parterns if you persist in the anger. IMO you should sincerely (if you can) apologize for the anger, and any "mistreatment" you gave ks, that also goes a long ways towards her feeling safe and trust for you, and helps her heal. I just don't care much for righteous anger sem, plain and simple, does no good for anyone, and to just say well I am entitled to be angry, and express it, is pure nonsense (beyond the immediate, and short-lived knee jerk reaction we all experience when blind-sided by life).<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hello, he was just blindsided again, SNL. It has only been a few days. The data would suggest he has done a much better job of recovery and handling his emotions than you have. He had gone a long way to overcoming the first revelation. His anger is justified and perfectly normal. It is true it must dissapiate before the marriage can heal. Meanwhile KS is perfectly free to end the marriage as you are. <P>What I am getting to here SNL is that there are many aspects of your point of view I agree with. What I don't agree with is that your dispassionate dispersal of opinions is of any help. Why? Because you take little time to understand the point of view of the BS. You are stuck in the us vs. them mentality to the point that you misrepresent the Harley approach and the honest intentions of many people that post here. You do not provide time or allow for people to get over the "knee jerk" emotions as you so delicately put it.<P>I suspect that the real problem is that you don't want to rebuild your marriage. Yet, you cannot bring yourself to end it without being able to place blame on your spouse. As it was, you having the affair made you the "bad guy" in your own eyes and you cannot stand to be the bad guy, yet you resent having to even try. Well, I for one would think more highly of you if you did the honest thing and divorce your W rather than drag her and yourself through your charade of rebuilding.<P>So finally I get to the purpose of this post. While you application of "logic" is fine. Why don't you try to have a bit more empathy for the fact that most people posting here, BS and WS alike, have invested far more emotion into their marriage that you and your W appeared to have. Consequently, the dissolution or an affair in such a marriage does bring out more emotions than you apparently are comfortable with. In short everyone doesn't view things as you do, and you cause great pain when you fail to recognize this.<P>You clearly bothered SEM and you hurt Worthatry deeply especially since the breakup of his marriage is connected deeply with the death of his son. Losing a child and a Wife that you love is more than someone should have to deal with. Although, sadly after this weeks events, many people will be doing just that.<P>I do hope you understand where I am coming from SNL.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I hesitate to jump onto this one...its hard to know where even to start! So many directions to take, and so many things to respond to.<P>I often post here to give a BS a kick in the butt so to speak. To remind BS's when their actions go against the principals of MB or when I think their words or actions will be LB'ers to their WS. <P>I think SnL is doing the same thing by reminding SEM that the anger is destructive and pointless. <P>Its a difficult situaiton in that both SEM and KS post here. This is a little bit of a public flogging for KS, and I admire that she has the courage to be here. <P>So yes -- SEM has the right to rant and rave and be angry. But SnL's point is valid -- to what purpose???<P>I posted earlier about why a WS doesn't feel compelled to be honest. (And honestly -- I still haven't been honest with my H) <P>So its a lesson we can all learn right out here in the open. Should a WS come forth with the truth if it means the BS will have extreme anger and loss of love for the WS?<P>If the WS is still feeling a desire to protect the marriage how do they go about implementing radical honesty???<P>

Just Learning:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Harley's are not in the match making business.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, early in his career, Bill Harley was in this "business". What he found was than instead of trying to match people up according to their pyschological profiles, the more effective method was to teach his clients the "formulas" that he has here. Once they learned these MB rules, they didn't need the help of a dating service...<P> <P>

K,<P>I stand corrected. But their methods seem to work far better in helping marriages. Most match making outfits don't imploy this approach.<P>Lexxy,<P>I think you are missing a point about the anger and it is a fine line in my opinion. If you and perhaps SNL are greatly afraid of any show of anger, then your comments about honesty are correct. Fear, pain, anger do seem to go together.<P>However, what commonly happens is that the BS gets angry blows off steam and in the process heals themselves. At the end of the process, both BS and WS understand the situation via honesty, and BS is ready to work on the marriage knowing what they are dealing with. If the anger persists (many months to years) and the WS is constantly being beat down with this anger, then you are right little was gained. EXCEPT for one thing. The WS knows that at the very least they were honest with their spouse. They did what they could do to rebuild the marriage.<P>The problem with not being honest (and it has been chronicled here a variety of times) is that the secret ultimately erodes the marriage if it is rebuilt. Why? Because of the fear of being found out, of saying something wrong, of OP showing up, so many things that rob intimacy from the marriage. More than a few have posted here swearing that they would never tell their spouse and within a year or so find they must. Why? Well, oddly because the marriage is actually working and healing and the guilt is just killing the WS.<P>Finally, I think honesty is important for a very pragmatic and humanistic reason. Say, the marriage fails because the WS because there is an affair. The BS will be greatly damaged by this and more so because they don't know the reason for the dissolution.<P>Lexxy, you posting to give another view point is very good. So is SNL's. My difficulty with SNL is that his posts come across as if he delights in informing the BS of their failures. He seems to proclaim the soveriegn right of the WS to do anything they want and the BS should just deal with it and not take it personally. He may or may not feel that way. He indicates that he doesn't. If that is the case I am suggesting that he temper his approach with the knowledge that although he apparently feels little emotion in this situation others really do.<P>I am not the most warm and fuzzy type when I post here either. So I may be more aware of my limitations and hence his. I will say this though. Amoung my posts, the most numerous posts were talking with WS's or at least those that want their marriage to succeed.<P>So Lexxy, please feel free to post as I know SNL does. Your point of view is not only welcome but necessary. Just remember you are on the side with all of the control. The BS is on the side with very little control, hence they feel far more vulnerable and unsure. The potential to say something hurtful is greater because of this imbalance. I know, because I have inadvertantly hurt far more than you or perhaps SNL.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Gosh, there is an awful lot in this thread. You certainly have a right to be angry about her dishonesty, and to question how the marriage can develop from here. But there are some positive things, too.<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>Clearly, there could not have been much emotional attachment in these affairs.<BR><LI>They happened four years ago.<BR><LI>After some delay, your W seems to realize the importance of complete honesty, and took the risk in telling you.<BR></UL><BR>Basically, you've lost three months of the recovery and it's like starting over. But three months isn't so much compared to the 5 years of your marriage, or the rest of your life. I'm sorry you've had this major setback and have to swallow this stuff all over again. But there are good reasons not to give up yet; it sounds like you want to keep KS as your wife.<P>- Tom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keep Smiling:<BR><B> INTHECLOUDS320,<BR>Funny how you said it hit home. We did get pregnant when I was 18, but we were together 3 yrs prior, So I don't condsider it a shotgun wedding.<P>Wow 30 A's. That must be rough on you. Do you regret having had an A as well?<P>DO you think his childhood played a roll in him having an A?<P> Or, do you think she gave up those rights when she cheated?<BR>I feel this way. <P>KS, are you expressing your regret and remorse? Have you expressed all those good things you said about SEM to him, not only with words, but with actions? It is so neat to see you both post on MB and that is a good therapy. Do you voice your thoughts to each other as much as you post? <P>If you consider saying "sorry"every day, so many times a day. I try to hug and hold him but it's hard when he is stand-offish, ya know.<BR>Thanks, WE love to come to MB's. Our recovery is to communicate everything. We work oppisit scheduels, so sometimes the only chance we get to communicate is posting some.<BR>When you said get to know yourself (in other words) I am going to C for my self esteem. Hopefully then I can be a more positive and better W.<P>I hope that the two of you do fall in love again and know more about eachother's EN. Sherry</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hello KS,<P>I hope things are going better for you today. Let me get started...<BR>Yea, we were together a little over a year before we had her. We had been planning on getting married when she came 3 months early. We married about 2 weeks after we had her.<P>We did rush things. We didn't know each other at all. I can say that now. We fell in love, out of love, in love, out again. It has been a real roller coaster ride. The first d-day was a month before our 3rd anniversary. Anyways, the question....<P>Are the A's rough on me and do I regret my A as well? Yes to both. A BIG yes Not as rough as it use to be, though. He is having more of a problem with my A than I am with all of his. I regret my A but he makes me regret it even more, everyday and its been 2 years. I think I forgave him and myself for the A's after about....a year. He still holds onto my A and it is tearing us apart.<P>Do I think his childhood played a role in his A's? YES. My H's father cheated on his mother for 17 years, E and P abused the whole family (mother, 6 kids), was a chronic alcoholic, compulsive gambler, etc.. He'd leave them with no food and disappear for days at a time. They had nothing to eat but ketchup at times. Then he'd come back with bags of grocerries to smiling and happy faces. Heck, they were happy to see the food. One of my H's older sisters shot and killed his father while he looked in the window. Through all that abuse, my H still says he loves and misses this man. That is how I think my H feels is how you show love. <P>Given up rights....<BR>My H still has rights as well as I do. It took a while, but I realized that we could not go on this way. I had lost myself and found me again. I refuse to go back and I refuse to be with a man like my H's father was. I accepted responsibility for my part in the break down of our M and now it is his turn. I asked God for forgiveness. I got it. Then I forgave myself. When I forgave myself, I forgave my H.<P>We are not perfect. We are human and we make mistakes. We are full of flaws. I accepted my H's flaws and love him regardless of them, but I don't have to suffer the consequences of them. I believe that before we marry, we have expectations of this marriage, of the life that comes with it, of the person we marry, and our past reflects how we live it. When those expectations are not met we get disappointed, deal with it, and suck it up and step on. Some handle it better than others. My H is not handling it very well at all. I am not perfect. His mother never cheated on his father but I did on him.....???hmmm??? <P>So, Plan B is unavoidable for us. You are getting help for yourself. That is WONDERFUL!! I wish my H would. I cannot be with him until he finds this help, gets the help, and finds his way back to me. He has to find what he is looking for. He has to accept responsibility for his part. I cannot help him. I thought I could, but I can't. He agrees. We hope in the end we can be a family again. I can hold onto that. Either way, I know I will be okay. I like this feeling of being friends with him cause we never gave that a chance before we married. I am proud to call him my friend.(He makes me laugh). I pray that one day I can be proud to call him my H and he proud to call me his W.<P>Sooo, KS, you still have rights to being a human, a woman, a mother, and a wife. SEM can't take that from you. It is you that is letting that go possibly cause of the guilt of hurting SEM. Dont' feel guilty for forgiving yourself. You will have to if you want any of this to change. SEM is going to have to forgive you too. That is the only way he will be able to let go of his anger. It is the fear that keeps people from doing it. Everything is forever changed and that is scary but at the same time, exciting too. <P>Forgive yourself KS. Show SEM through your actions of your love for him.....life is too short....you are so young. The possibilities are great and with all that available, the love can be so great between you. I am getting emotional here...so I am gonna cut this short. <P>SEM, if you read this, forgive KS and let her forgive herself. Just live you guys. Let it go, hold each other through the rest of your lives together. If my H would let it go and just hug me until my feet came off the ground, I'd give him the world. All the jobs, money, and material things in the world can't buy my love. All I want is ALL of him. SEM, maybe the jobs and money didn't matter. Maybe she needs you to show her love in a different way.....Just my thoughts. Hug each other and never let go. Have a good day guys.<P>Thank you KS,<BR>Clouds <P>

Ok, I know I need to just let this thread die, it is getting old already. I just felt I needed to thank everyone for reading and posting and sticking up for me <P>THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH, YOU HAVE BEEN SO HELPFUL. I don't think KS and I could be where we are without all of you.<P>I usually try to respond to everyone who posts to a thread started by me and I am sorry I didn't this time. I have obviously been having some seriouse issues to deal with and the anger has been a big one. I am sorry I didn't acknowledge everyone that posted, I did read every response and you all gave me great advice.<P>Thank you INTHECLOUDS, jdmack, Faith, Just Learning, Orchid....ok maybe I should have written them all down, doesn't matter you all know who you are, I really do appreciate it... thank you all.<P>SnL<P>I was just thinking about something you wrote to KS. She told you that I told her if she wasn't happy in being married or wanted something else out of life that she could go, and I would be happier if she was happy. <P>You said I probably didn't mean that, Well, I actually did. I meant that for a couple reasons. I did not want to be married to someone who wasn't happy with her life. I don't want to live my life with her to find out that I was living an illusion. I don't want to grow old with her and find out that she never was happy with me and always felt that she was missing out on what she wanted to do in life. I don't want her resenting me for preventing her from being happy because she was afraid to hurt my feelings.<P>It all comes down to the fact that I want to be married because she wants the same thing, not because she was afraid of hurting me. I want closeness in my marriage and I don't want lies in between us. For her to continue being married to me and she wasn't happy and didn't want to, but did it for me would be no better than keeping a lie from me, or lying to me, or even cheating on me. I don't want to love her for who she wants me to think she is, but for who she really is, and same goes for why I want to be married to her.

Yep sem, I feel the same way.....let me know if you ever figure out how to tell that for sure....it is something that haunts me, what is love, and what is accomodation in all it's many guises. In the final analysis, how do we look at a spouse and be so radically honest as to say, I will stay, I will be happy, I will meet your needs, but you are not really the one.... few have the courage to admit that to themselves, much less a spouse. But I have to say, ks sounds pretty convincing...... now the hard part, when you strip sem to his naked soul, and he must tell the truth before God.....what does he truly feel? Not what does he want to feel, or hope to feel, but really feel. Good luck to you and ks, I hope you defeat the odds. Ks, is the same age as my daughter (unmarried), there was no way on this earth marriage for her at 18 would have been anything but a crap shoot, hope you guys roll a 7.