I have a thread in Plan A / Plan B about POJA in plan A.<P>NSR suggested K had some answers, but I couldn't find that thread in my searching.<P>Question from that thread: How do you do POJA in plan A? clearly we can't apply POJA on all issues until WS ready to quit EA/PA.<P>Big Question: On DDay I asked about WS doing a trial period without OP and WS said that was impossible. During DWeek, I was complimented on my "handling" of situation by WS, and whenever I started talking like "When you leave..." WS said something like "Don't give up yet, there's not much chance I'll stay with you but there is some." So I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and finally starting to post here. I have not said ANYTHING to WS about A for about a month, because I am trying to 1) grow up myself, 2)do a better job at meeting WS needs 3) figure out what needs to be said before I open my big mouth and say something I don't mean or can't follow through with. I am assuming that A is continuing, given the response to my trial period suggestion. However, there can't be a whole lot of contact, because WS has been at home more than usual. I at this point don't want to know more for now. (If WS recommits, I may need details for some closure, but not now.) <P>I feel many of the same emotions that I read about here, but also a little guilt that my problems don't seem as bad, compared to some of the people posting here.<P>The problem now is that of course I am always thinking about the fact that there is an A in my marriage that doesn't belong. So never mentioning it seems dishonest, but I don't know what to say. Plus I wonder if WS thinks that if I never mention the A, it's ok to continue it. (NOT!)

Bgentle:<P>The searching options on this board leave a bit to be desired. <P>You asked:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do you do POJA in plan A?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the answer is multifaceted. I think the first thing you should do is a 'bit' of education on the POJA with your spouse. You might say something to your husband like "how would you feel if we tried to follow the MB's Policy of Joint Agreement?"<P>Your husband probably would tell you "NO", once you explained what it is. This is a benefit of counseling with one of the Harley's (phone counseling appts are available by calling 888-639-1639)---Steve or Jenn does some of this dirty work for you.<P>If your husband won't agree with it, I would let him know that you're going to follow it anyway. A one-sided POJA amounts to:<P><I>Never gain at your spouse's expense</I><P>In other words, whenever you go to do something, you should ask yourself how you think your spouse would feel about it---if you're uncertain or sure that it's negative---don't do it. If it's something you feel you MUST do, then you need to brainstorm to come up with an acceptable way to do what you feel must be done.<P>I think you might want to also work on the Policy of Radical Honesty too---see if you can get your husband to tell the truth about the affair situation. The only way you're going to encourage honesty is if there are no "negative" consequences to his honesty (lovebusters). If you ask if he's still in contact, and he says yes---thank him for the information. If you believe this to be true now, it's probably silly to ask about it---it's a hot button, and you won't be gaining much information. And I do think it's completely OK to tell him that you don't approve of the affair, and ask him what you would need to do for him to end it (try to negotiate it's end). You'll probably be ineffective in achieving that ultimate goal, but if you can do this things without lovebusting---you'll be demonstrating new marital behavior in a very demanding situation. He'll notice (eventually). When you get to recovery (and the two of you are participating), the honesty will be something that you'll both actively work at.<P>

K,<P>Thanks for replying - much food for thought.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>(phone counseling appts are available by calling 888-639-1639)<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have asked about counseling and S said something like, "We are the ones who know the situation, so surely we would be better able to work on this than a counselor." But... I haven't seen much effort on his part, and I don't want to push. So I am reading and praying. S does know that I have been reading about affairs, but does not ask about what I have learned. I have not shared my many insights either, because I need to practice not educating first.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B><BR>If your husband won't agree with it, I would let him know that you're going to follow it anyway. A one-sided POJA amounts to:<P><I>Never gain at your spouse's expense</I><P>In other words, whenever you go to do something, you should ask yourself how you think your spouse would feel about it---if you're uncertain or sure that it's negative---don't do it. If it's something you feel you MUST do, then you need to brainstorm to come up with an acceptable way to do what you feel must be done.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunately I am fairly certain that that will mean getting off this board. Sigh. I tried not to post, but S was gone on LONG business trip and did not even check email. So I broke down. Now I think I may well go into withdrawal if I have to leave. Well, any ideas on how S could be enthusiastic about my posting? I am afraid S will see it as invasion of privacy. I have really appreciated the support here but my marriage is more important. Reply quick - I am going to broach this subject with S today or tomorrow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B><BR>I think you might want to also work on the Policy of Radical Honesty too---see if you can get your husband to tell the truth about the affair situation. The only way you're going to encourage honesty is if there are no "negative" consequences to his honesty (lovebusters). If you ask if he's still in contact, and he says yes---thank him for the information. If you believe this to be true now, it's probably silly to ask about it---it's a hot button, and you won't be gaining much information. And I do think it's completely OK to tell him that you don't approve of the affair, and ask him what you would need to do for him to end it (try to negotiate it's end). You'll probably be ineffective in achieving that ultimate goal, but if you can do this things without lovebusting---you'll be demonstrating new marital behavior in a very demanding situation. He'll notice (eventually). When you get to recovery (and the two of you are participating), the honesty will be something that you'll both actively work at.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How encouraging of you to phrase that as "when... recovery" instead of "if...recovery"! I think repeated asking about whether the A is continuing will be negative. I'll try the "what could I do to help you end the A?" I think that needs rephrasing. "what could I do so that you would not need OP?"<BR>Hmmm... more work needed.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How encouraging of you to phrase that as "when... recovery" instead of "if...recovery"!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good: it was meant to be encouraging. And I had to delete my first attempt at that sentence... <P>If you can afford it, you should do the counseling on your own (and even if it's a stretch, financially). I counseled with Steve Harley for nearly a year while my wife was involved in her affair. Although she had a couple sessions with him, she didn't stick with it. Steve was tremendous in getting me to learn the MB philosophy and put it into practice, as well as encouraging me when I was down, and helping me when I "screwed up". Even though it might be a violation of the POJA (if your husband doesn't want you to)---I'd give it a try.<P>If your husband isn't supportive of you being here, then I would consider leaving. You should let him know why you're here---which is to become a better spouse, with a better marriage. It shouldn't be about venting, or badmouthing him, or anything else. If he can't agree to it---well hey, that gives you some leaverage to pursue the counseling with Steve (or his sister, Jenn, who my wife has counseled with).<P>You sound as if you understand the material pretty well, and buy into the principles. I think you'd probably enjoy the counseling---I hope you can give it a shot.

Just in case I have to leave this site...<P>(Actually I am pretty sure WS won't mind me lurking, I am just not sure about posting.)<P>I saw your comments in another thread about the books.<BR>I have Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs and the 5 Steps workbook.<P>I was thinking about buying some more. The 5 steps doesn't really go into enough detail about Love Busters since I am learning without input from WS.<P>Would "Fall in Love, Stay In Love" be too much of a repeat if I also buy "Love Busters?" Or do I need only one of these? What about "Give and Take?" The "Four Gifts" I think I understand and can't fully apply until recovery anyway so I think I'll wait on that one. And the site says that "Marriage Insurance" is mostly the same as "Love Busters."<P>OOPS - I wrote this Friday afternoon and did not hit submit, <BR>so I guess you won't have an answer yet!<BR>

Bgentle:<P>I haven't actually purchased "Fall in Love, Stay in Love"---it's new, and if I were to buy it my wife would probably say "uh oh... what NOW???" <P>The book certainly will have information on Lovebusters, as well as the POJA and how to negotiate (which is in Give and Take). My previous favorite Harley book was Give and Take---it had a synopsis of Lovebusters and HN/HN in it, as well as details on the POJA and negotiation strategies. I also appreciated Lovebusters (because I was an expert in several areas).<P>My guess is that if you buy Fall in Love, Stay in Love, you'll probably have your bases pretty well covered. And because this is Harley's latest book, it'll be more "refined" in what he's recommending.

Well, I may need the detail I might get in Love Busters! Hmmm.<P>I would say that my confession on Saturday was a BIG step backwards, or forwards in a negative way?<P>I would guess that the confession was a necessary step for eventually reaching my goal, but it was perceived very negatively by WS. I should mention that I had two behaviours to confess that occured during WS's business trip, and after confessing one, WS nearly walked out on me. But WS calmed down and admitted that although WS had requested that I not do such a thing, I had said I could not promise not to, because I was pretty sure I would! I held out as long as I could, but WS was gone for so LONG... and so the fact that WS did not bother to check email had negative consequences (For WS, not me, except as in the fact that WS is unhappy about what I did as a consequence of WS not checking email). I guess that is not such a bad thing. <P>The confession of the posting on MB was an anticlimax. WS had originally expressed concerns about the security of such an action, but this time, just confirmed that this is anonymous and said, "no problem." So I can post. However, I did not feel comfortable doing it from home when he was there. So I haven't posted till today.<P>BUT now I once again feel that I am "on trial" I did something minor this morning and the WS took it badly and was very nasty. Again I feel that WS is only seeing negatives about me and no positives. I thought we had gotten past that, but like I said, a BIG step backward Saturday.<P>

K, your words and experience are invaluable. Please keep posting. <P>