<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I still sit and stare off in wonder as to HOW he could let me go. I will forever love him. And yes, if he changed his mind, I'd be here. Tomorrow or 20 years from now. In the mean time, I'm here, trying to work on what I have. It's difficult for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sorry, Snobird, but as a BS whose H may have an OW <I>waiting in the wings</I>, I find this statement so hard to read...<P>I am not sure it is in good taste to post to a WS, who is struggling, such messages. <P>Are you posting in this forum to build your marriage? These kind of statements and others that you have made to others do not make it seem so...<P>Please, if you choose to, clarify your position on these boards...<P>Thank you,<BR>Cali<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Nosey me had to check this out. <P>I completely agree with Cali. I also was wondering what was up after reading that thread. After hearing my H say that if he called OW up she'd leave in a heartbeat that was bad enough but to know that OWs actually sit "out there" and wait is hard to think about.

Hi Snobird,<P>I too echo Cali's request.<P>Are you here to support people trying to rebuild their marriages, or, are you, yourself in need of support to help rebuild yours, or are you here to have us help support you with being an OW and maintaining NO-CONTACT of the MM you were involved with?<P>Some clarification would help us. <P>Best,<BR>Jo<P>

Sorry guys, I don't know what to say. At this point in my recovery/life, this is where I'm at. My comment was directed more at the person who posted before me then the original poster, so I didn't mean to give bad advice. Just, what V had written really gave me some dejaj vu. <P>I do want to repair my marriage because it is all I have now. But nothing seems to be getting my other love out of my head. That is something I am having to deal with. <P>I'm sure there are lots of different kinds of affairs. I'm sure there are some that people have left willingly and regreted later. That isn't me. I'm sorry BSs out there, but nothing will ever crush a love that felt so real. Even if it is just a little something small inside me and inside him that no one else knows. <P>No, I'm not going to walk away from my marriage. I'm going to deal with what I have and what I feel right now. If what I have and what I want are different, I will either change or adapt. That's the best explanation I can offer.

Hey snobird,<P>I understand where you're at - and I know what you're going thru Now, after my own A, I know what my W has being going thru too. Not easy.<P>A question for you tho - do you love your H. I mean, is it more than a friendship? Just curious.<P>- Freddy<P>

Hey---I wasn't trying to be judgmental...that's why I was asking for clarification...<P>I post back and forth with WS's much...I feel I am very objective...I just wanted to know your 'position.' <P>Please post to us 'your story,' if you desire...sometimes it is helpful to write things out in order to clarify your own position...<P>One of the things I teach my students is that 'source' is very important...in order to know how to process your 'advice,' we need to know where you sit in the marriage builder arena...<P>respectfully,<BR>Cali<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Thanks for the kind words. I'll tell my story as briefly as I can.<P>Married for a little over 5 yrs. Was feeling very restless and unhappy. I felt myself changing and things were irritating me that I didn't understand. There were times I could hardly stand to be in my own skin. I "thought" I was communicating with my H about my needs. But I wasn't giving him the full ton of bricks that I know he needs in order to get something.<P>I'm an online junkie, have many friends there. One of my friend's husband starts coming to the chats I host once a week. I'd seen his picture, heard about him, thought he sounded nice, but hadn't thought twice about him. Come to find out he is funny, witty, smart, flirty and a lot more dynamic than I ever imagined (judging by my friend's personality). We began talking more privately and discovered so many things in common; past experiences, feelings, things we wanted, view points. Every email/conversation was an, "Ohh my God, wow, that is so erie! Me too!!"<P>I had met my friend before in person, but not him. He and I started "wondering" about meeting. Things got heavier and heavier between us. I knew I was about to fall in love and felt helpless to stop it; didn't even want to stop it. They were about to move locations and he decided that on his way he'd stop by my house for a short visit to break up the trip. (His wife knew that he and I had become "friends" online, but knew nothing else).<P>I knew I loved him at that point and when I saw his face for the first time I knew it was real. Our connection was strong and undeniable. Our first meeting left us stunned, amazed, very in love and wanting more. We continued talking and managed a few more wonderful visits. We discussed a life together. We fit each other like gloves in every way. I loved him more than anything I knew. We managed to hide things well for quite a while.<P>She found out and told my husband. Everything broke loose and I fell into pieces. I hated that I'd hurt people, I hated even more the idea of losing him. After everything I had risked, would it all be for nothing?? We kept in contact and my husband knew I was "thinking." Yes, I was waiting for the nod from my Love. It took months and there were many times I thought he was very close to choosing me. But in the end he opted for her. He said his guilt wouldn't let him live with leaving her alone after what he had done. He said he would always love me and believed that we belonged together. And it was done.<P>I couldn't hate him or be angry. I knew him and understood how his mind worked. I knew why he came to his decision, I just don't know how. I've never loved like I did with him. I once again in my life believed in soul mates. I would have crawled through broken glass, leaving everything I knew behind to be with him.<P>Do I love my husband, Fred asks. Yes. You wouldn't believe the status of saint he has risen to in all of this. So calm, so understanding, so worried for me, so paitent. He just wanted me to stay and for us to be happy. But he told me if I needed to leave, I should. If it weren't for him, I probably would have just taken a hand full of pills long ago. But knowing he needs me and expects me to be here keeps me going. We're friends, buddies and at one time I was very in love. I'm trying REALLY hard to find that love again (the kind where I wanted to jump his bones on a regular basis). But it's hard. My wounds are so fresh and so many. I know that BSs feel like they have gotten the sh**tiest end of the stick. But I lost a man I love, a good friend who ended with calling me names I'd NEVER been called before, my best friend who I trusted with everything sold me out to my friend (OM wife), and all the dreams I worked the last year on are now null and void.<P>I'm trying to rebuilt the best I can. But, yes, HE is still so deeply implanted in my heart. I would love for him to not mean anything to me one day. But I will have to undo a full year of thinking and feeling to get there. It's a long process and I am just stumbling along, taking day by day. Until then, I love him and miss him and feel lost.<P>"Love when you can, cry when you have to. Be who you must. It's a part of the plan."--Dan Fogelberg

Thank you for sharing that story, Sno. <P>An aside...You managed to explain a very complex thing in a few short but very effective paragraphs, and still managed to convey a strong sense of your emotions too...if you don't write for a living, maybe you should! Really, I thought that was very well done.<P>As far as your affair, well, I'm a betrayed husband, so you can guess my feelings on that. What you will find, if you have not already, is that the very words you used to describe your feelings are pretty much identical to the words nearly all of us BS's hear. The pattern repeats itself over and over and over again in each new story I read here. The fog seems to have a very consistent effect from person to person. WS's and OP's hate the whole idea of "the Fog", I know, because if it exists, then knowledge of it totally exposes extramarital affairs as very shallow affairs. Painful stuff. But really I think that in most cases, it's either the emotional disfunction of "The Fog", or it's a severe character defect--those are the only two conditions I can think of that would lead to the kind of total betrayal and dishonesty and hurtful selfishness that affairs are. <P>As time distances you from your affair, I believe you'll become more a lot more critical of it and words like "love" and "soulmate" will take on much deeper meanings for you. I believe you will honestly wonder how you could have had such high hopes and longing for a relationship built upon lies, betrayal, sneaking around. And with a man who willingly betrays his own wife and marriage vows to boot! I think you will finally reach the point where you just can't believe what you did!<P>I sincerely wish you the best--I'm glad you are here on MB--it can't be easy for you to share and read like you have, but you do it, and that's an excellent sign! I don't post much, but I would have given up a long time ago if not for MB.com. <P>Rusty<P>

I don't have the time now...it's the 'witching' hour...almost dinner time and my three boys (8, 5 & 2) are losing their minds !<P>But I have something to post for you from <I>Mastery of Love </I>by don Miguel Ruiz.<P>I would also like to ask if you have read <I>Surviving An Affair</I> by W. Harley?<P>But I keyed in on this from your post:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>But I lost a man I love, a good friend who ended with calling me names I'd NEVER been called before, my best friend who I trusted with everything sold me out to my friend (OM wife), and all the dreams I worked the last year on are now null and void.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A good friend never sells you out. It sounds like the man you chose for a husband has been supportive...loving...he sounds like someone who deserves your trust...OM does not...<P>Please read the Harley's concepts...post here...we are a supportive group and really care about people's well-being...just keep in mind that we BS's want to see marriages remain intact...and preserved.<P>Prayers,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

cali, I thought at first the same as you about the name calling, didn't make any sense. But I think she meant lost OM, AND friend (his wife) and she is the one who called the names. A sad story, but despite the fervent desires by bs that an A always be some shallow thing between dysfunctional people....sometimes it is not, there is no set place where one can meet the "one" you fit, and unfortunately sometimes you meet them when you are already married..... and that is cause we all, far too often, do a poor job of mate selection. In fact, although I am sure it is distressing to think about, people do innocently meet the right person, who is the op, divorce and marry them, and have a good marriage. I know I am the poster child for unrepentant (in a sense) ws, and a lightning rod for bs displaced anger, but the facts are clear, many people are married to the wrong people...they are not unhappy cause there is something wrong with them, they are unhappy cause the marriage will never work at more than a comfortable level (and that only by applying MB principles and working hard, everyday for the rest of your life). One can live like that, but if one meets the right person, and realizes that is what love is about, that is what it is like to fit someone, then you have a problem, especially for ethical people who cannot bear to hurt their spouse. This is certainly not the story of most affairs, maybe only a small %, but it does happen. I also have come to realize that love and marriage mean many different things to people, and that people who have maybe a good relationship, even a lot of caring, feel threatened by the notion people do fit some better than others, and that in fact they may not be the best choice for the spouse (and vice versa). And that I think is the main reason the harleys are so adamant about affair proofing, there would be no need for this if people can just be married to anyone who meets their EN....they know there is more to human bonding than that. Something that cannot be quantified, measured, written down, but it is very real..... and very dangerous, if you are not married to someone you fit.

Cali, Hi. Yes, sorry if I was confussing. No, my Love never said a harsh word to me ever. His wife was the creative one. Sending me packages of gifts, cards and things I had sent to her, now in pieces and with lovely words like "whore" and "c**t white trash" written on them. Mature, for a 50 yr old woman, no? And yes that "former" best friend is no more. When I get hurt enough, I can cut ties like a Ginsu knife. And she was just brutal to me. A fine line between devotion and doormat, I say.<P>Rusty, thanks for the compliment. Yes, I am a bit of a hobby writer.<P>And SnL, sometimes you come across someone who DOES get it. Thank you. I agree with you totally.<P>Rusty mentioned a "fog." My foggy time was before I met my OM. I didn't know who I was or what I wanted or what was happening to me. When I was with him I felt so strongly who I was.....and I LIKED me. He felt the same way. The fogs grew when we were apart and times were hard. <P>I know that every story must sound the same and that as a BS, you must feel like you've heard it all. But I swear I wasn't looking for anything when I found him. I would never have wanted to embark on an adventure such as this. I don't like guilt, I don't like hurting people or trying to keep lies straight. The fact that I was willing to toss all of that aside for HIM told the people who knew me best how serious this was. This was no small affair. It was no fling. Yes, SnL, he was the right one at the wrong time. We both said it many times. For now he and I have our current spouses and I know we will both try. But like that song from West Side Story, "there's a place for us. Somewhere a place for us." Maybe not here on earth, but if there is a heaven, it is where we will find each other again.

When I read posts like yours and SnL's...I begin to believe that the only way to dispel the myth is for you all to have moved away from your spouse and with the OP...<P>It is amazing to me that with so many failed 1st, 2nd and 3rd marriages one continues to believe that yours will be different...<P>The result does not become different when you change people...only when you change your actions and reactions...I would guess if you asked people whose 2nd and 3rd marriages failed, Why...they would have to say that it wasn't like I thought it would be...he changed...she changed...I changed...<P>I would also guess that if you asked others why their 2nd marriage lasted...they would say that they finally 'got' it...that it was how they acted or reacted that made the difference...<P>Fit...Schmit...SoulMate...phooey...unless you fundamentally change the kind of person you are IN MARRIAGE the result will remain the same...<P>Check out <I>The Mastery of Love</I> and you will see what I mean...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Plz clarify cali, every marriage is the "right" one. All unhappy marriages are because of defective people? There is no such thing as making a marital mistake (although every other human mistake seems to be well documented and so forth). If this is all so, why does it make any difference who we marry, why even date? Why not just assign a mate to anyone who says I want to be married, would save a lot of wasted time. You (and like minded folks) are making one huge mistaken assumption, that people are all the same, and human pschology does not matter, clearly it does. From what job you have (hey can't leave it ya know, it is your first job, shame on you if it turns out just doesn't fit ya, just get an attitude ajustment), to what politics you have, to what your religious beliefs are...etc. etc. What you imply would be true if there was no such thing as love, if it were really all mechanical, just do it by the numbers....but it is not just that, there is more, and it does make a difference who you are married too. All the effort in the world, all the good intentions, perfect application of MB will not move you one iota to love....it can and will make a very tolerable, plesant, and supportive freindship (with sex) but it will not make you in-love. It has become painfully obvious to me that much which is labeled love is actually quid pro quo, indeed it is a EN contract.... and that is ok for many, I am not knocking it at all...but it should not be confused with the feelings, the emotional well-being, that comes from 2 people who fit each other. It may not be all that common, but it does happen, and by all means MB is a way of making sure one is not confused about their marriage, and maybe is in-love but somehow got terribly out of whack. But I have also read storied here about people who have been reconcilled for long periods of time, years in some cases, who finally acknowledge, they may stay married, may even have a good life, but something is missing, they know it, and they know what it is....and it is not cause they are defective human beings.

SnL,<P>I haven't been following the threads all that closely, but I don't think that anybody is arguing that all marriages are good, or that all spouses should stay together no matter what, or that people don't change over time. I believe that it is certainly possible to make a mistake in choosing your mate--a very sad, tragic mistake to be sure.<P>The argument is instead that being dissatisfied with your spouse or even marrying the wrong person is not a justification for infidelity, right? I think we all actually agree with this, but the complexity of the emotions involved nudges us off track sometimes.<P>Or maybe the antihistamines are finally kicking in...I hate this time of year!<P>Rusty<BR>

rusty, I am the current resident um........ ws who is really mired in a fogbank (at least according to a few), and it is the possibility that could be true that keeps me here...struggling to figure that out....but alas analysis can only take one so far...darn it. Cali and I do this periodically, she knows all marriages are not meant to be, she just doesn't say it, so I do for her And she knows I do not promote infidelity as a solution to an unhappy marriage (although I may sound like it, so she gets after me). If I had my way, marriage would be much harder to enter, and only after doing a lot of in-depth relationship work, self-introspection, and psychological profiling.<P>randy...I haven't been following the threads all that closely, but I don't think that anybody is arguing that all marriages are good, <P>snl...Well, that is sorta true, but you wouldn't realize it from most of the posts...but seeing as how it is a marriage building site, that is expected.<P>randy...I believe that it is certainly possible to make a mistake in choosing your mate--a very sad, tragic mistake to be sure.<P>snl....True in therory, but there are some here who would challenge that, and say it is all about attitude. They usually acknowledge that if someone is beating the crap out of someone, or having serial affairs, they are a mistake, but it gets a little fuzzy after that. It might be interesting to have a thread on when is it ok to divorce.<P>randy...The argument is instead that being dissatisfied with your spouse or even marrying the wrong person is not a justification for infidelity, right? I think we all actually agree with this, but the complexity of the emotions involved nudges us off track sometimes.<P>snl...Most agree, the arguments are more about what are the consequences of an affair.<P><BR>

Hey Snobird and everybody else,<P>I just wanted to add a note to this thread.<P>(Snobird, you sound very familiar yourself, although your from Illinois and I ain't ever bin thar!)<P>I think it may warrant a new thread about when to leave a marriage. This is something I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions on. I have had the same arguments with my personal counselor-- it really seems that the consensus out there is that you can smack any two people together off the street, regardless or race, religion, age, physical attributes, send them to counseling, make them read MB, make them really work on EN's and BINGO! You have a loving couple.<P>BS! And I don't mean Betrayed Spouse. I'm not trying to draw flames here, but, really people, don't you have to FEEL in love? you have to FEEL it daily, you have to SEE it in your spouse, you have to WANT to have it returned. You should DESIRE to be with your spouse all the time. It should HURT when you are apart. Personally, I would LOVE to be in Love with my wife, it would be the perfect marriage, perfect family, perfect life. But, right now, I don't feel like I love her... that is awful! It is depressing as all hell. I don't want a marriage contract to a friend, I want a love that is true to the end. <P>Can we start up a new thread on this topic? Any interest? How do you decide that enough is enough? How do you decide that it is time to leave? Contrarily, how do you decide that there is enough hope left to keep building? Perhaps that 'glass is half-full' attitude for a thread will reduce the amount of flaming I'll get! <P>Have a good day all!<P>-Venizio<P>