Had the second in series of conversations with H. They were not intended to be educating conversations...I told him that I have 14 years of stuff I had always wished I could tell him...now that I really have nothing to fear...my worst fear being realized...I find the need to bare all...<P>He was cranky as we drove to parenting class. I asked him a couple of times what was wrong. He asked why do I always 'hound' him to talk? (At other times, he said I do not communicate or pursue communication with him.) I stated clearly...so I am da**** if I ask, and da**** if I don't...He got mad...so I clarified what I meant and gave him specific conversation to which I was referring.<P>He asked me why I always had to ask things of him. (i.e. wearing ring, time going to bed, and others...)I countered with why couldn't I? I never said he had to agree with me...or do what I wanted...just that we talk about it...quit being afraid of hurting my feelings...That launched us into the fact that I have been making changes noticed by him, however he ALWAYS ended such observations with BUT...he said that the points he made were valid...I agreed with him and asked...<P>"Why can't you accept the changes I have made and allow me time to continue? Why is it that I have all these changes to make...I have to do this...I have to do that...I can't ask this...I can't talk about that...What is YOUR responsibility? Oh, that's right...You don't want to be here...You don't want to be married...so it is okay to have expectations of me...but I can't of you...And, if you don't find my changes acceptable or good enough, does it give you permission to walk away? I feel that you want me to fail...you want me to give up...so that I make the decision to walk away and you are no longer the 'bad' guy."<P>"You don't want to talk...but I don't listen. You don't want to rebuild trust...but have been 'questioning' me...You don't want to wear your ring...but didn't like it when I didn't wear mine..." <P>As we were getting close to class, I ended with "I wished he would go to a counselor...or do the reading...something...anything not to feel stagnant...feel like he too was making progress...<P>That launched him into "What was I doing?" other than coming to this site and doing reading on my own...I told him not to knock it until he tried it...<P>Well we got to class so that stopped the conversation...sorta...he made a comment about something I liked to do and I got defensive...he asked "Why? did I get defensive when he was critical of TV programs or books I read." I explained that my stepdads were critical of me...so I was 'flashing' back...apparently I never shared this with him...(of course, this is the first time he asked "Why..." instead of getting defensive about my defensiveness...so I guess he is making some changes too...<P>We got home and I pulled out one of the cards I had purchased for him...in it I explained one of the situations I was having difficult with and asked for us to come up with a compromise or solution together so that it would no longer feel like a 'control' issue for either of us...he agreed that we could .<P>Amazing thing was that I got through all this with just minor LBs...he criticized my coming to this site...(he called you all my 'cheerleaders')...I criticized OW's friends who 'helped' them with emails, phonecalls & a place for $3X...I said you had your cheerleaders...I have mine...<P>Not sure why I posted this...just an update, I guess...<BR>One of these days I am going to print out all my posts and put them in a notebook as a journal...<P>Cali<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<P>You are sounding very frustrated. Sounds like your H finds it easy to get you upset. You know this. Use your knowledge to your advantage. Turn the lemons he is handing you into lemonade. You know that he is using different standards for your vs him. <P>Use the part that you can control, Cali. You feel like not wearing your ring, then don't. Don't show your weakness that allows him to manipulate you. Let him learn to respect you. He feels it is you and mb against him. Understsandable. Acknowledge that you understand how he could feel this way, but ask him to let you show him how you get support here and how the WS can get support also. <P>I know he is aware of your presence here, yes let him know that some of the info here will hurt. You are in great emotional pain. No need to hide that fact. <P>Most importantly Cali, don't let him place his anger at himself on you and the boys. It is important he carry the weight of his decisions. <P><<<<hugs>>>>> to you and your family. This is an ugly time for many. Unfortunately our spouses may continue to make the world worse by their conduct. We need to be prepared. <P>I wish I had the words to make it all better for you. Irregardless of what we read and feel, we have to wait until they are ready to what we have been seeing. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Wishing you the best Cali. It really sounds to me like there is a lot of good in the conversations with your H.<P>I thought about the same thing you said about printing posts. My counselor had suggested journaling, but I never thought I could because my privacy would be invaded by H. This has actually been a great outlet for that.<P>Take care.

Hi Cali. It sounds like you are learning to have much better conversations with your H w/o LBing alot.<P>Don't worry. I have/had these conversations with my H all the time when he was MORE in the fog. It is amazing, you think they don't listen or it doesn't get through, but it does (as long as you do it in a non-LBing way)). Days,weeks, or even months after we talked, my H would completely change his viewpoint and start saying things that I KNEW were true, yet he adamantly refused to believe.<P>It's all part of the fog, babe. The words you choose now are there, lingering in his head so that one day, when it all makes sense, he will realize... He will. Not everything, but you will notice too that he is coming down to earth every once in a while. Sometimes he gets beamed back up, but for that little while everything makes sense anyway...<P>It is good that you are addressing things in this way. It makes him think, and think, and think. That is a good thing. Because even if he's not admitting it, he is thinking about it, and it's probably driving him crazy because he doesn't have the answers, or doesn't want to admit that he knows the answer and doesn't like it...<P>Keep it up. No LB's!!<BR>HbH

Please everyone, remember it takes two willing and able parties to make a relationship work. You can't do it alone, and shouldn't try. Talk is cheap. Whenever talk conflicts with actions, look at the actions. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AdrianG:<BR><B>Please everyone, remember it takes two willing and able parties to make a relationship work. You can't do it alone, and shouldn't try. Talk is cheap. Whenever talk conflicts with actions, look at the actions. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Adrian,<BR>I realize you are a new member here, but may I ask, how did you find this site? And why?<P>I found this site when I read a heading somewhere that said, "Can a marriage be saved by just one person? YES!" That is what drew me here, because I wanted my M to work, and I knew my H didn't at that time, so I knew I'd be the only one working on it. I can honestly say that if it had not been for this site, I probably would have committed MURDER by now!! I'm not talking figuratively here. I was ONE ANGRY BETRAYED WIFE!!!<P>This site, and its concepts and principles helped me see that there is MUCH one spouse can do alone. It's true, actions ARE important, BUT to begin where we begin, and see GRADUAL changes, takes a lot of time, and patience, and waiting for the actions to match what WE want from our WS's, is sometimes TOO MUCH for them to do all at once.<P>Cali's H IS making progress.....believe me, he's coming around!! And his actions ARE starting to match his words...<P>Glad you're here, hope you are reading and learning and finding lots of good stuff to help you in your journey.<P>Lupo<BR>

Wow, Cali,<P>It does sound like your husband is making progress. At least he is talking. That is a good sign.<P>The process is long and hard, isn't it? I remember thinking during my husband's past affairs, that I would never make it through recovery. But you do. It was hard work, but for me, worth the effort. I was able to keep my family together for 10 years longer than I would have. I wish I didn't have to go through this again. This time we will get a divorce though. I keep thinking of Dr. Dobson's book. Perhaps if I had layed the law down after his first affair, this wouldn't have happened. Oh well...it is over. <P>Take care....and I hope things improve for you. Patty

Cali,<P>I like how you characterize this as 2 of a series. <P>Not only are you talking, but it is the way you're talking that is interesting.<P>I found an article on conflict in marriage yesterday. One of the examples was a fight over getting lost in the car. There was a description of attack-defense-counterattack-defense.... We all have discussions like that and end up with bad thoughts that had nothing to do with the original situation.<P>It takes two to fight that way. I noticed that BOTH of you (from you description) shortciruited some of those battles.<BR>You, by stopping and explaining. Him, by asking a question. It's good you noticed that. If he liked the result maybe he'll do it again.<P>If he's asking questions maybe he's hearing the answers. To me, asking questions is a sign of wanting to continue the conversation.<P>I'll bet if you didn't have any cheerleaders you wouldn't still be in the game right now.<P>Jeffers<P>