Plz realize I am not ignoring my w needs at this time. I prefer not to defend myself against my w complaints, especially in a public forum, but I do not wish any of you to be distressed. You have no idea (obviously) of the dynamics that have evolved over the last 29 years of my life with her, and some of them are exceedingly toxic. I am here for whatever she needs, ready willing and able (and have been there for her, something she neglected to mention), you must accept that, there are 2 sides to every tale. She made it clear to me that cause I was not acting EXACTLY how she thought I should (including reacting to things I had absolutely no knowledge of), she would post about my failures, and reveal how awful I am to the board. I will leave you to ponder why.....<P>A. She told me that she was going to do this.<P>B. Omitted the things I have done.<P>Lasrly my w rarely tells me anything about her needs, I am just supposed to know them. Or she will offer some vague description without any specific requests. She then waits until some time (only she knows why, I sure don't), and hammers me for being an insensitive clod who won't meet her needs. She regularly LB with angry outbursts, disrespectful, judgements, and selfish demands, but it is ok cause she is unhappy, stressed, or __________ (fill in the blank). I have been critized almost daily for 24 years of marriage, but of course.......... I deserved it. You all who have chastised me (on this issue) are her helpful minions. You have no idea what she is capable of. Or the anger she is capable of bringing to bear. She is an expert at ripping me to shreds (while appearing the victim), and that is what she just did here, for the millionth time.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 23, 2001).]

Okay ... I apologize SnL, it's hard not to feel for both of you.<P>I believe both you and Thinker are hurting one another at times here on MB, SnL. Some things you say about "not ever loving her" or "not being in love with her" when you married her must make her feel like you're trying to invalidate her very existence. I know I feel that way when I read your words. It stings unbelievably.<P>I'll try and stay out of it from here on. But I will still read both your posts, because I care about what happens to you both.<P>Jo

SIGH!!!<P> Looking for your helpful minions support there SNL?<P> No reply necessary/wanted.<P> jd

Oh, that is just so much crap!!!! Then, Mr BIG GUY if you were 'meeting her needs' why were you both sitting there last night looking for comfort on the computer?<P>GET REAL....this is not just about YOU!!!

SNL,<P>Yes there are two sides to every story. Somhow you and thingre have to stop this if you are going to move on. Why not Plan A her right now? Ask her what she wants you to do to support her through this terrible time. Then just do it. If she says she wants you to just be there for her, then listen to her express her feelings. Don't interject anything but that you feel for her. If she wants you to just hold her while she cries her heart out. Then do that, hold her and comfort her.<P>One of the points made by Harley is that we often try to fill our spouses needs with the things we need ourselves. Hence so many unmet needs. So ask her what she needs and give it to her.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

I suppose there are 2 sides to every story [only one side to the truth, though] but it sure doesn't help your cause when you are on here for hours on end writing novels about how bad it is to be trapped in a loveless marriage. I just wonder how you think that is meeting her needs?

Hi SnL & Thinker,<P>I have been here since you both started (I believe), I have read many of your posts and spoke with both of you (otherwise, how would you know my name?!?!?!). My opionon is not what will fix your personal situation. Opinions here are ideas with the option to help us make better personal decisions. I know you both know this. <P>Some opinions we value more than others and you both have had your share of give out valuable opinions here. Now I implore you to do the same with each other. <P>Both of you, please try to better the other. Understanding, you think you may have. Empathy? Can be improved. Am I right? <P>Share your pearls of wisdom (sometimes in the rough stages, I know) but share them nonetheless with each other then as a couple share them with others. That would be beneficial to your relationship and help it grow and it will have a greater impact to all around you including us here at MB.<P>I once worked with a man who was a bad paper pusher. His job was in sales. He was a kind and soft spoken man, made a lot of sales but was rotten at the required paperwork follow-up (oops sounds like my H - but it' not him). This man often caused the manufacturing unit great headache (promised clients orders in less time, etc.). The difference was that this sales man made the same commitments as other salesmen in his organization. Yet he always came out on top. Why? The clerical staff, production control area (my job - get that 'control title?'), assembly, QA & shipping areas really hated the extra work we had to put in to fulfill obligations he commited for us. But when brought to his attention, he would readily admit his mistake, ask how to fix it and did not make it again. Oh, he made different mistakes that brought similar work but he was willing to 'admit & work' with us. <P>Big difference. The other sales guys were pushy and arogant. The rest of the company did not want to work with them and the sales guys would threaten to make our lives miserable, push their weight and then go crying to daddy (the company president) calling the rest of us 'not client sensative'. Mind you the sales force are the ones that reaped the benefits, were wined and dined, taken on trips to exotic places at the company's expense. We were just the unappreciated workers expected to fulfill their every demand. <P>Sound like a bad marriage? Would that cycle ever be changed? If all the sales persons acted that way why did that one sales man have so many friends in the rest of the company? What made him different than the others? Not bribery, not more abuse........He was appreciative, he said thank you, he apologized when he made a mistake and he even warned us when a hot item was coming. <P>Oh yea, we can apply the principles we learn here in other aspects of our lives and many of us do. For some strange and crazy reason at home we think we can those those principles out the door. Why? I don't know. <P>What I do know is that in my case, I get the dubious pleasure of working with people who are unappreciative, unthankful, blamers, etc and then get to go home to more of the same. Yet I do work with others who are nice, mature and great people to work with. But I tend to get the double barrel of the bad stuff. Does that mean I should give up and become one of 'them'? I could but my conscience won't let me. Just as I have fought for my marriage, I fight everyday to try and work with these attitude types. It is hard. A daily battle. <P>Now you know my side. Can any of this benefit you? Is it really neccesary to list and relist each others faults if you don't plan to ever do anything about it? Once you start when do you stop improving? Never..... that is a life long process.....not meant to discourage but to be able to look back on your life and say that you had a growing and positive impact on the lives of those you touched. <P>I will share with this board at a later time what has been happening in my life. Another story sure to be entertaining......you know me, I don't make this stuff up, I am just forced to live it (at the moment anyway).<P>Snl, your topic mentioned thinkers dad. Is he ok? I am not sure what you meant by it. <P>To both you & thinker <<<hugs>>>. Many here that have not spoken to you both, may not realize you are both nice people. Of course, that is 'my opinion' based on many hours on the phone with both of you together. Hm........... collective hours of course. So there are good and bad sides to all of us. Let's work 'together' in our families so that our good side out weighs the bad. <P>Take care,<BR>L.<BR> <P>

Orchid,<P>Here is a link to what SNL was talking about in reference to thinker's dad. It is also the reason SNL addressed this thread as he did. Her dad is not alright and thinker is having a terrible time dealing with it.<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/006119.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/006119.html</A> <P>Z<P>

<B>Lastly my w rarely tells me anything about her needs, I am just supposed to know them. Or she will offer some vague description without any specific requests. She then waits until some time (only she knows why, I sure don't), and hammers me for being an insensitive clod who won't meet her needs.</B> <P>Hey, SnL, it's your buddy Sno, back again! :-P Believe it or not, I can relate to this. My husband has ALWAYS been the "ton of bricks" type of person. You have to be blunt, right between the eyes direct if you really want him to "get" something. I have always known this. It sort of aggravated me, but I guess I thought that after so many years of marriage he would have tuned in to me more. Well, he didn't (don't know that he was really supposed to or not). But when I started feeling really unsatisfied and unhappy about many things, I made subtle hints and quiet comments. They didn't get any response and I'd just bury my resentment until I just had a cold hard ball of indifference in my stomach. It wasn't until after the affair came out that he THEN saw how unhappy I had been. And he is just dumbfounded, he had NO idea. I find it hard to believe, but I guess I should have stuck to the original rule with H, "the weight at which you deliver your message depends on it's importance." To be really honest, I'm not sure how well he would have listened, no matter how heartfelt and honest I made my demands/requests, etc. He knows it now. He now tries to be more intuitive to my needs and I try to speak up more. Just a small lesson, I've picked up.

SnL, sb: There is no such thing as a subtle hint. Honest and open communication, within the framework of the rules of care and protection. You can be honest without being spiteful, brutal and insenstive.<P>Couching things in "subtle hints" undermines communication. In essence, you helped foster the cloud of antipathy by participating in it. Remember, that in order for this type of communication to work, you must provide an environment where the other feels protected and cared enough for to be equally unequivocable. I dare say you both have been remiss in that, as we all have.<P>SnL: Based on reading your posts over the past months, I would heartily recommend counseling. Your morose and obcessive points-of-view are not healthy, and obviously are not being resolved. As long as you remained fixed in place, you will not progress.<P>Thinker: What purpose will anger serve? If the two of you do not pull together, then you will pull apart.<P>All: the bottom line is this--if you and your spouse are not actively working on applying MB principles in your marriage and lives, then you would be better served posting less and reading and taking to heart the materials on this site and in Dr. Harley's books more. All your finger-pointing, lombasting and lamenting will get you nothing in the long run except a divorce.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited September 23, 2001).]

snobird,<P>This is something we all struggle with. I've always found it hard to stomp and nag for what I need. I too "made subtle hints and quiet comments." They were not heeded by either my XH/WS or my current H/WS. I guess I too am learning that “the weight at which you deliver your message depends on its importance."<P>In the case of my XH/WS I eventually left him because he was not willing to do work on our marriage and I was not willing to live in a loveless/abusive marriage.<P>My current H/FWS and I are in recovery from his affairs and doing quite well. We credit the MB principles for this. The rule of honesty is of utmost importance when dealing with expressing one’s needs. Total honesty means that we must let our spouse know very clearly if they are not meeting our needs. And we must do this over and over until they hear us. This is a very hard thing for many of us to learn. <P>Though not all affairs are a result of the BS not meeting the WS’s needs, it does seem that this is usually the case. In the cases where an affair is based on unmet needs the needs of BOTH spouses are usually not being met. One question I always wonder about is that if both of the spouses are not having their needs met, why does one of them have an affair? What dictates which one will have the affair? I’ve heard that it is often the case that one of the spouses has an affair to “let the steam” off of the relationship… An interesting theory.<P>Z

Zorweb,<P>Thanks for the link. I read it and responded. <P>Snl,<BR>I understand your topic now. I still stand by my comments. I also know it may be difficult or you may find it ackward to know what is best to do for your W. <P>That is ok, just let her know that you are trying. Work together. It is hard but definitely worth the effort. I am sure there is a lot we don't know. But you are with your family and one member is in great need of comfort, support and assistance. Rally all the others to help her. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

SnL,<BR> Well, here is one of Thinker's needs from one of her posts:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There are times when I just cry and cry, and I just want to die. Why can't he just hold me and say nothing, but just hold me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Actually, Thinker should be able to tell you what she needs from you, but maybe she feels that you aren't really listening or that you don't care what she needs. I know that I have a hard time telling my H what I need, especially since he rarely does anything about it or else he does it in such a way that I feel like he's just doing it to appease me. <P> SnL, you've known and been married to your wife for a long time. Surely, you must have <B>some</B> idea of how to comfort her when she is so upset. Wipe out the OW from your mind for a while and pay some attention to Thinker. Just go to Thinker, take her into your arms, and aimply hold her, without her having to ask you everytime.<P> And, you said earlier that she doesn't care about your feelings. I think you're wrong; she does care....very much, but it's hard for her to deal with your pain when she is also in such pain.<BR>LC

I am trying really really hard to not get into a he said she said...<P>Clueless....I have held her, I do hold her, but if I miss a cue, or don't do it just right, I "never" do it, if you see what that means. Is a very hard way to live, eggshells all the time.<P>I can understand you all identifying with the bs, especially one as distraught as my w....but plz, you have to realize, what she writes (or what I write for that matter) is biased.....but of the 2 of us, I am far and away the more intellectually honest, and my posts more accurately reflect our reality (otherwise why would I give you all so much ammunition...sheesh). My wife seeks sympathy/support here, I seek understanding, we have different agendas, and that too will be reflected in the picture presented. By all means give her support, she needs it, but plz don't assume I am some insensitive ogre who is torturing her.

Hi SnL and Thinker!<P>Thinker, if you're reading this, I am praying for your dad, I am so sorry for the additional pain you are bearing right now. I think it is a good idea to get your med dosage increased a bit. <<<<<THINKER>>>>><P>SnL, you sound like a human being for once!!! So often your posts are too darn analytic, but this time, I actually FEEL what you mean. I understand what you are saying. Alot of this has to do with the way you and your wife PERCEIVE each other. I am working on this alot in my MC sessions. My H PERCEIVES me as controlling/manipulative, therefore, no matter what I DO, I am that way, it can never be right, or the right way. BUT, he's working on that...<P>I forget, are you guys seeing a counselor as well as utilizing the MB principles? The MB principles are all well and good, but it sounds like you and thinker may have some additional problems that need to get worked out in counseling (either individual or joint).<P>You are right, you will never do it right, if thinker does not change the way she perceives you, and thinker will never be able to make you happy if you don't know change the way you perceive her.<P>Just please, keep in mind, Thinker is going through a tough time right now. Even if it APPEARS as though she is chastising you and not appreciative of what you DO do, she does realize it, and she does appreciate you. She is just having a hard time showing it will everything else going on.<P>Thinker, if you can, tell SnL that you appreciate it when he does something, ANYTHING, that makes you feel better about your dad. Just don't take it for granted.<P>HbH

I don't take it for granted. When my mom called me to tell me of the news, H did come off the computer downstairs to hold me. We sat on the couch together, I told him thank you later. All I know is I am a caring person, I take care of people and it is hard to not get hugs, words saying how is your dad today, how are you doing. <P>As far a being honesty in this relationship. I will give my opinion. H is not being totally honest, I will not go any further. It is getting too toxic. But take what I said or leave it. <P>Yes I am having a hard time dealing with this stupid affair, my H mother talking to me about her problems, my dads serious illness and the everyday pressures of running our own business and the family. Things are not getting done here like they should, and I get frustrated. But the BS spouse according to the WS is suppose to just bear with it. So if one runs out of money to pay bills, I can say, go talk to the WS? I don't think they care who is who, they just want their green stuff.<P>Pray for my dad, he had a terrible day today. I went over to my moms for a couple of hours today. Helped her do some things in the house, while my dad went down for his nap. The tumor is causing his taste to change. Just eating a graham cracker caused him to vomit. He said the grains in the cracker were too sharp for his mouth. My mom is making him homemade beef soup, and going to puree the soup for him to swallow. She asked me if they should fill out the absentee ballot for voting in November. The ballets were on the table, I said sure, if something happens before then, we can notify the township. We talked about how we think now, how we put (if) in a lot of our thoughts. This is so hard to deal with, and I guess I will have to find some other outlet to help me. No touching, caring talk from my H today. Didn't even ask how my father was doing today. Asked H why, he said he was afraid to, I might criticize him or whatever. This is getting insane. Cried on my walks with the dogs, asking God for my help now. Talked to the dogs. Guess this will tell all, will H be there for me or not? The real emotional balance of our marriage will be shown!

Hey SnL,<BR>I hear ya that there are two sides to every story, and at some point, someone has to either give in or give up, that is, surrender...<P>If you both are standing there, screaming about what each other has not done--she not telling you her needs, then criticizing you for not meeting them, YOU not giving her enough support, spending too much time on the computer, etc. Then you won't make progress.<P>Somebody has to give in and just say, OKAY, I GIVE UP. If only one of you chose to love the other one as God loves, then half the fight is over.<P>SnL, I think you need to be more open and honest about your HURT feelings in the relationship. I think that you have built up a hardness to protect yourself from being hurt by your wife.<P>On the other hand, I can empathize with your wife, when she tries to manipulate you emotionally and you don't give in, she gets frustrated. I tend to do the same thing with my H and it frustrates HIM to no end! Why do I do it? I don't know? Why do I make excuses for my bad behavior instead of simply apologizing and getting back to marriage building, I don't know? PRIDE? Not wanting to admit when I'm wrong. Feeling like pointing out what HE did wrong will somehow outweigh what I did or said that was out of line.<P>BOTH of you are wrong and BOTH of you need to apologize, wipe the slate clean, and start fresh and stop holding years and years and years of grudges against each other! Your whole marriage has soured because of all the bitterness and you both have to let go of it if you are going to recover.<P>I'm so sorry for what is happening with your father-in-law's health, but his declining health has nothing to do with the problems in your marriage. I could be wrong, but it seems that the problems in the marriage existed long before FIL's health deteriorated...

Hey Thinker--<P>I'm very sorry about your dad. I lost mine to cancer a year ago. Those down hill days are still familiar. It is tough to watch your parent go through it. I don't know what to tell you about SnL. But I will give the only bit of advise that I can about your situation. My dad couldn't eat or keep down hardly anything either. Chemo and lots of pain meds were just wasting him. We were always trying to get him to eat something and the two things he would usually always eat were hot oatmeal and milk shakes! Smooth, easy to eat and digest and you can always lace them up with extra calorie things like honey, chocolate syrup, Ensure, etc. I hope that your dad will make a recovery. It is hard watching them and not knowing. Its also hard to be strong for everyone. Share your burden with anyone willing to help.<P>Sno

I feel so sorry for you both.<P>Its almost impossible for 2 emotionally unhealthy people to provide support to each other -- especially to expect them to get it exactly right. <P>And I personally think there is some manipulation going on here too. I won't say more, but think about it.

This is a great quote for SNL and thinker....I can't recall who posted it, but it has been floating around the boards for a month.<P>here it is:<P><BR>Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?<P>Really think about this quote guys, you are fighting over stuff that is SO unimportant in the big picture.<P>thinker, you should change your name to feeler! SNL should be thinker, he thinks all the damn time!!!<P>thinker I am sending some healing light to your dad,<P>Love and light to both of YOU,<P>Jacky