I am wondering if any WS felt a fear of falling in love again? After all, I made such a mess of it the last time... and I guess the time before that. I fell in love with my H, spent 8 unhappy years, fell in love with OP, ended that (admittedly unwillingly), and am desperately trying to allow (wrong word?) myself to fall back in love with my H. Wondering how much of my problem is fear of falling in love again and just having it all go back to hell...<P>------------------<BR>When we walk to the edge of all the light we have, and take that step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen - there will be something there for us to stand on, or God will teach us how to fly.

Wow!! I am in a similar situation. Yessss, even my therapist says I am afraid to 'put all my eggs in one basket' with my H. Afraid that I will be hurt again by his anger. (of course, I feel I did the ultimate betrayal by having the A)... I really NEVER believed or wanted a future with the OP... and I knew it was wrong, but somehow it made me feel wanted, sexy, and like the young flirty girl I used to be.<P>But, as you have, I have chosen to be back with H. And now my heart must catch up with my head. Counselling and books have told me to try to fill my head with as much positive thoughts and feelings about H as I can. I am trying to do this. His temper and anger has changed. He has done an enormous amount of growing....and i MUST remember, HE is the one that loves me with all his soul, HE is the one that knows and accepts me more than any other human being, HE is the one that committed his life to me.<P>I would like to keep in touch with you, seems we have such similar stories.....and from our perspective, seems we don't have very many to support us. Sometimes I feel like such pondscum. sighhhhhhhhhh......<P>Good luck!!!.......<P>------------------<BR>..climbing the rainbow..

Marissa:<P>Having been the BS twice before being a WS, I suspect there are issues with trusting loved ones ... and it is something I am working on via counseling and self-analyzing.<P>Humans are complex creatures, and--usually--no single facet causes an affair. The reasons for them are as complex and unique as we are individually.<P>How we redress it and recover from it, however, shares a common base in MB's principles. With those principles as a guidepost, and in an evironment that emphasizes honest, caring and protected communication, the likelihood of an affair is lessened considerably.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

A good question marissa, and one that probably applies to bs too. Love (the feeling kind, not the contract kind) is a huge emotional risk, cause it requires vulnerability, you cannot have love unless you are bare and defenseless emotionally IMO. What happens, is most of us in marriages that do not work, learn how to gaurd our hearts, and the moment you gaurd, love is gone, and the marriage is dead, it is indeed just a vow or contract at that point.<P>In an affair of the heart, where one does love the op, and the op is worthy (not revealed as a predator of some sort, or worse yet, someone we used to make us feel better), and the only reason the love is not acted on (marriage) is the intense pressure exerted by our culture and the bs, not to act on it (so one or both choose duty over love, a rational decison to override the truth of their heart), you have a difficult problem. If you could love your spouse thusly, you probably already would have, and at worst the A would simply have woke you up to that fact, and MB would probably work fairly painlessly and all would be well. <P>But if instead you care about spouse, have history, kids, even friendship, they are decent not overtly abusive person, you just are not in-love with them, and doubt you ever will be, what do you do? You have probably allready erected certain walls, because that is what people do, you are only ever totally vulnerable to one you fit, one you are in-love with. The most basic wall of all is the one where you just accept you will never have that kind of love, and steel yourself to such is your lot in life, and work hard at being a good spouse, a good friend, even a good sexual partner. People can do that, and many do, the risks of in-love are enormous, you have to give everything you have, you can hold back nothing, all your hopes and dreams you give to another for safekeeping, all your weaknesses and flaws you stop gaurding, knowing they are ok, you trust completely, you have no allegiance to anything else, not family, not friends, not community, not children, not parents, you merge with someone else, and become oneflesh, one entity. Is no wonder there is such argument over what marriage is supposed to be, what love is supposed to be, few have this kind of love, but most of us want it (the safety) and fear it (the cost if you blow it) at the same time. This is why IMO so many people settle and talk about marriage is not perfect, and one must work at it, and low points, and high points...etc. If you negotiate a marriage you can specify expectations, control the outcome....but you will never truly be in-love that way. You have to give up all expectations, ask for nothing, give up all control, all anger, for in-love to work IMO. Many will disagree, this is a very threatening theory re human bonding, but it does happen, there are couples who do have this, not many, but some, it is from studies of those that the harleys discerned the principles of MB, but these couples had never heard of MB one must wonder how did they "know"......... they didn't know, they didn't have too, they were in-love.<P>The fear you feel, especially as a ws who may very well have experienced the beginning stages of in-love with one you fit, is now you know how it looks...it isn't an ache about something that is missing, an abstract idea, you have direct experience, only to lose it. Naturally you want this, everyone does, it is what our souls need, and you wonder if you can have it with your best immediate choice, your current spouse. And why not, you have history, maybe kids, a significant time/emotional investment. You know them, they know you, you cohabitate, have a common financial basis, wouldn't it be great if you can fall in-love with them. Some know right off, no way, they have grown enough, acquired enough courage now, to fairly assess their current spouse, and know it will not work, so they just leave, with or without the op. Others think maybe, maybe now it can be different, especially if the bs seems willing to change, and truly does seem to care about you (as opposed to just caring about your effect on them). An A is a life changing event, no one (bs ws op) will ever be the same, so yeah, maybe the earthquake will rearrange the emotional/psychological landscape enough to allow the possibility of falling in-love with ones spouse. I don't say falling back in-love, cause I don't think people who are truly in-love with each other have affairs. Why would they?<P>It is very hard for a ws (of this kind) to go back, it means making yourself completely vulnerable, tearing down all those carefully erected walls, and taking the risk of trmendous hurt, if it doesn't work. Not to mention the pragmatic concern of spending more precious time/emotional resources on a lost cause. It is a legitmate fear marissa, and sometimes the intensity of the fear is your subconcious telling you not to do this, because you make get sucked back in to a tolerable marriage, and lost the nerve, the courage to leave, this is a survival issue, and the stakes are very high. There is fear in not giving it a chance too, what if you could be in-love and don't try? Some people will conceal the A, thinking they can just forget it all, or choose to keep the walls up and just give up, and accept a negotiated marriage (meeting EN), using the implied threat of leaveing (whether they really would or not) to encourage enough change in the spouse (who will do so because they are afraid of losing you, and then they'd have to start all over). But this won't work, UNLESS you truly give up the need to live an in-love life. The path has to be through the fire, radical honesty, total soul-searching on both parts, and giving up all control, becoming vulnerable knowing if you don-t fall in-love a day of horribly painful reckoning is coming.<P>So the fear is normal, you will just have to live with it. Love is not a decision, but trying to love is indeed a decision. Look in your heart (and your head), and if you truly think it is possible for you to be in-love with your spouse (the standard being if he was not your spouse would you still want to try), then tear down all the walls, act like you are in-love (and now you know how that looks) for a reasonable period of time, you will either be in-love, or in extreme pain and if the latter, will have to make the final choice, a contract (assuming your spouse will give you acceptable terms) marriage, or end the marriage.<P>Or you can skip the fear, figure this is your lot in life, and just keep the walls up, and make the best of it, not everyone needs (or maybe even wants) to be in-love. They are content if people just care/protect about each other, and that is easier to do for sure. What do you need marissa?<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 23, 2001).]

Marissa,<P>I can relate to that fear. It is exceedingly real and something that has to be overcome in order to find that love again.<BR>I too felt that I had to relearn to trust my H with my feelings after my A. I didn't think I would ever really be "in love" with him again. But I knew that I didn't want to give up all the history we had together and I had seen some major changes in my H to give him and our marriage another chance. <BR>I too just ended my A with OP without it dying a natural death. In fact I think if I gave it the time it could have lasted, but I knew it was wrong way to do things. And I didn't give my marriage the chance it deserved. In order to give my marriage a real chance I just had to end things with the OM and that was 6 months ago. I find that I am learning to love my H again. It is different than the first time, but it is just as real as before. I just stepped off that cliff and decided to see where I landed.<BR>If it worked out then all the better, and so far it has worked out very well. But if for some reason it doesn't, then it won't be because there is anyone else waiting around. <BR>So it is well worth the risk. But that is just my opinion.<BR>Debbie<P>------------------<BR>"I find the great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. To reach the port of heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it ---- but we must sail, not drift nor lie at anchor." Oliver Wendall Holmes

ConfusedMom - quote "... be hurt again by his anger. (of course, I feel I did the ultimate betrayal by having the A)... I really NEVER believed or wanted a future with the OP... and I knew it was wrong, but somehow it made me feel wanted, sexy, and like the young flirty girl I used to be." <P>YES YES YES! After d-day, I spent alot of time terrified of my husband's anger. Between torturing myself and being scared of him I'm back to who I was before the A. Miserable, isolated and lonely. Still not sure which I miss more, the OP or how I allowed myself to feel/be when I was with him.<P>SeenTheLight - I guess the problem is, I don't feel like I'm recovering, I feel like I'm trying to find a work-around. Some solution that allows me to function somewhat normally. I'm trying everything people tell me to try, I'm working on acting 'as if'. But truthfully, I just feel numb. (I think it was snobird's post that really hit home to me.) <BR> <BR>sad_n_lonely - wow, what an epic! I don't know if I would call my marriage dead, more like comatose i think. It functioned perfectly well from the outside, just wasn't connected inside. Actually had a good friend of our comment recently 'you guys never fight'. Maybe that was part of the problem. It was always up to whoever felt more strongly about the issue to decide it, and having grown up in a house where fighting was the norm, and I learned early not to have feelings or opinions which clashed, I guess I just didn't express myself clearly on wants or needs.<BR>I did, and still do love the OP, without apology. He wanted only for me to be happy, and did nothing to make me not love him. Including agreeing to my wish for no contact (he did break it once recently by email but it was rather impersonal and followed in the wake of the WTC attacks - I'm from NY and my H knew one of the people lost on the planes) when I finally asked for it.<P>quote "If you could love your spouse thusly, you probably already would have, and at worst the A would simply have woke you up to that fact, and MB would probably work fairly painlessly and all would be well."<P>Not sure what exactly you mean here. I would say that I loved my H with all my heart and soul when I married him. I thought that together we could accomplish anything. Then the years went by and we were never really together. This was due to circumstances largely beyond either of our control. <P>I certainly care about my H, we've been together 12+ years, we were good friends before we married. I am definitely not 'in-love' at the present time, but wondering if I can ever break down the walls to get back to 'in-love'. Sometimes I wonder why I would even want to - it hurts too damn much. Most days I don't want let anyone love me becasue I don't want them to hurt.<BR>But at the same time, this numbness, this lack of feeling is killing my spirit. One day is much like the next, in that I am just trying to get through it to get to the next one and the one after that. I don't know what the point is though, just to get there? for what?. I no longer seem able to focus on hopes or dreams. I have none.<P>quote "You have to give up all expectations, ask for nothing, give up all control, all anger, for in-love to work IMO."<P>I'm not sure I can do this. Just hope for needs to be met. That didn't work the last time, why should it work now? Although we have talked a bit about the ENq why should I go back to not expecting or asking for the things I need. We spent too many years already not being there for each other. <P>After d-day, my H and I fought alot about how I had changed. And how I didn't tell him I was changing. (I felt that it certainly hadn't happened overnight, where the hell had he been?) I had thought spouses were supposed to grow and change together, or at least in ways that complemented each other. He told me over and over that I knew who he was when I married him. I still feel that I'm the only one who has changed (and in some ways now changed back) and i don't know how to meet him ion the middle or give him directions to where I am now.<P>quote "...to allow the possibility of falling in-love with ones spouse. I don't say falling back in-love, cause I don't think people who are truly in-love with each other have affairs. Why would they?"<P>I don't understand why you don't say fall back in-love. Do you not accept that one can fall out-of-love with someone? I still believe I was in-love with my H when I married him. I was certainly not in-love with him at the time of my A, but does that negate that I was at one time?<P>quote "...this is a survival issue..."<P>How strange that you would put it this way. But it is so true, I find myself in an almost constant 'fight or flight' state. It takes an exhausting amount of effort to control it.<P>dlm - I guess I am having a hard time remembering the history we have (maybe one of those fog issues?) We worked opposite shifts for so long, we never really got to do many couple things. All my remember whens seem to come from either before we were married or the first 3-4 years. Thanks for your vote in favor of braving the fear. I'm trying, but it's so hard.

Wow SnL -- that was really something. You really captured my thoughts with that one!

Hoping to hear more from snl in reply to my questions. Neither my husband nor I wishes to live in a marriage that is just a roommate with sex sort of thing. We don't have kids so that isn't a reason to stay together. My husband says he is still in love with me. I have trouble understanding why.

Marissa,<BR>At the risk of sounding like everyone's mother, or the sage on the top of the hill...why do you love yourself? Hmmmm?<BR>Look at your posts, sweetie. "I made a mess of it" It wasn't only you...you have some wonderful qualities that your husband sees...what are they? What do you love about yourself?<P>We all fear failure...in all aspects of our lives. But try not to fear love...it isn't perfect, it changes daily and it's a gift when given...Give it to yourself.<P>T

WOW SNL,<P>Great comments. I do think this is something the BS and WS do share. I know I put up my own walls early on in the marriage. When W had an A I looked at it as an opportunity to break down those walls. I thought W would follow in my footsteps. I can remember in counseling sharing that my W told me to trust her to handle this. C told me that if that's what she asked for then give it to her. That was the last step in breaking down the walls. I totally surrendered and was crushed when the A continued. I will say that surrendering was the happiest I have ever been in my life even though I was getting nothing from W. Being crushed was also the worst thing that happened. It was 100x worse the second time than the first. So my walls have been rebuilt and I'm trying to make sense of it. W is actually starting to come around but I feel the same fear in her. It's scary for me to think of her surrendering if I still have my walls up. I don't want what happened to me to happen to her. I think maybe if the timing would have been better it would have worked out differently. I question myself by asking if it is realistic to be "in-love" for a lifetime. I also know that I need some security. For me I need to find a happy medium. <P>One thing I disagree with is that you tear down the walls for a "period of time". Time is a wall itself. If you are making yourself agree to a period of time then when things start going bad you automatically start building the walls. If you are going to surrender then you have to do it with no conditions. I think very few people can do this and be successful at it. At some point something is going to happen to hurt you. <P>Just curious SNL, what do you want?

Twyla - I think I could actually use a mom right now, or at least one you can talk about more than the weather with. Don't have an answer to your question. I don't know if I do love myself. As for good qualities, not sure I know the answer to that either. Maybe I need to put a list on the mirror? Don't know what I'd put on it. Good at borrowing from Peter to pay Paul maybe?<P>Whothehellisshe - Our MC, when we were still going, kept asking my H if he felt he was giving me a safe environment to express my feelings. I don't remember that he ever really answered the question, but I know my answer to that was No. I am afraid to let all the walls down again. I don't want to. I hurt enough. <BR>In regards to 'in love for a lifetime', of course I expect there to be ups and downs, but this down doesn't seem to want to come back up.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marissa:<BR><B>Whothehellisshe - Our MC, when we were still going, kept asking my H if he felt he was giving me a safe environment to express my feelings. I don't remember that he ever really answered the question, but I know my answer to that was No. I am afraid to let all the walls down again. I don't want to. I hurt enough. <BR>In regards to 'in love for a lifetime', of course I expect there to be ups and downs, but this down doesn't seem to want to come back up.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Marrisa,<P>How would your H answer the same question? <P>I'm sorry but I have not followed your story. Are you still in contact with OM?<P>who<BR>

who asked...what do I want?<P>snl...I want to be seen, and heard. I want to live my life without walls. I want total honesty, and no anger, and I want someone to choose me without expecting anything in return. I want someone who has the key that fits my box. I am a hopeless romantic, and extremely high maintainence<P>I may also be crazy who, careful what you listen to.

Marissa:<P>You did not reach this point in a single day; healing and growing from it will not be a single step, but a lengthy journey.<P>You say you cannot understand why your husband still loves you. Philosophers have been trying to explain that since the dawn of time. The <I>why</I> of his love, your husband cannot probably define. Accept it.<P>The road to recovery is to be found in the words of wisdom on this site. I cannot underscore enough how important it is to read and understand them. Only when you and your husband are working to fulfill each other's emotional needs, bound in the rules of honesty, care, protection and time, will you feel the growth of that love you seem to lack at the moment.<P>Even in the best of circumstances, the road to recovery is not an easy one. It will take both of you giving 100 percent. If that is the case, then you both have more than a fighting chance.<P>As to the environment surrounding love itself: we are selfish creatures, in the main; it is love that gives us a sense of being selfless. To be able to give and not worrying about taking. It is a self-fulfilling cycle. We want to be loved, want to have our emotional needs met. So we reach out in love, and find that by <I>giving</I> we can indeed <I>receive</I>. The degree of selfishness and selflessness varies: it is a condition constantly in flux.<P>By living in an evironment of honesty, care and protection, we learn how to express our varying degrees of needs. And to do so in a caring, protective way.<P>That is the utopia toward which we strive. I hope you both find it.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

whothehellisshe - My H refused to answer the question. Every time she asked it. She also told him his negativity was not doing our marriage any good. Well, he answered it for me by punching the door, the dresser, pounding on the end of the bed I was on with his fists, screaming, cursing, having a tantrum on the livingroom floor. Not ways guaranteed to make me feel safe. I do not feel like I can really share my feelings with him if I think they will upset him. I'm not surprised you don't know my story, I haven't really posted much here... no I am not in contact with OM.<P>sad_n_lonely - I want my feelings to be validated, not negated, not outdone. I want more than a housemate with priveledges. My husband calls me high maintenance too. Big surprise after years of only seeing him 3-4 days out of 7 and hardly ever for a whole day at a time. <P>SeenTheLight - D-day was over a year ago. I am not feeling better. The days get harder not easier. Maybe I should have said I don't know *what* he loves about me. We were so far apart for so long, I keep saying I've changed and he keeps saying I changed without telling him. I hate it - I don't even know who I am anymore. We hardly connect at all. And most days, even if he had time, I feel too exhausted to try. Thank you for your kind words, I do appreciate them. I'm just feeling overwhelmed at the moment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>who asked...what do I want?<P>snl...I want to be seen, and heard. I want to live my life without walls. I want total honesty, and no anger, and I want someone to choose me without expecting anything in return. I want someone who has the key that fits my box. I am a hopeless romantic, and extremely high maintainence<P>I may also be crazy who, careful what you listen to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I don't think your crazy SNL. I think you might be unrealistic though. You need to read what you wrote again. You are a taker. You will never find anybody that can only give.<P>Is your OP the key. If so, what are you waiting for? Could you know that she isn't because your hiding behind the wall of your M? How can you possibly grow as a person if OP is perfect for you? There is no challenge in that and it will grow stale. <BR>IMHO hopeless romantics overcome great odds to be together. Is your marriage the big hurdle? And once your past that what will the next challenge be if you're so perfect for each other? <P>Just trying to make you think. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic also because I see the challenge of overcoming the A as romantic. I'm also scared because I'm afraid I'll throw the next challenge in the way if/when we do make it past the A?<P>Maybe you should be careful listening to what I have to say.<P>who<BR>

whothehellisshe,<P>Why wouldn't you want her to have to go through what you did? Why wouldn't you want her to feel that same pain?<P>Why would you want to protect her from growing to become a stronger person emotionally? Why protect her from the consequences of her actions? <P>Much like a spouse of an alcoholic who lies for them..because they don't want them to get hurt..so they don't allow them to suffer the consequences of their own actions..they feel they are responsible to protect the alcoholic at all cost, don't tell them that the bills are so far behind because they drank the money away, they won't be able to handle it..they will just drink more..well..that may be true..but they need to know the truth..and they need to be able face those things w/ out the drink..call the boss and lie for them because they are too drunk to go into work..who is the one who suffering?? the alcoholic?? NO..the family..the one who is left to face everything alone..why do so many of us feel the need to be martyrs?? if I just love them enough..if I lie enough, if I protect them enough..If I suffer enough..then things will be okay..WRONG!!! They need to be able to learn..and they can't learn from their mistakes if we keep jumping in to stop them from facing their own consquenses..<P>Yes, I understand that you love your wife..and you want to protect her from pain..but do you love her enough to allow her to grow through that pain?? and be there for her as she goes through it??? So don't be afraid that she will hurt..just be there to help her pick up the pieces when she does..<P>And SNL...I agree..I'd rather have that fear of really loving someone and opening myself up to that hurt..than live in something that is medicore at best..than for settling for something that I know could be so much more..and I know some folks that have that kind of relationship too..my great grandparents had that..I could see it when they looked at each other..even after 50 and 60 yrs of marriage..yes, they struggled in some areas..but they always loved each other through those times..they were always there for each other no matter what..they were best friends..yet, they allowed each other space to be alone when they needed it..thats the kind of love I want..as the country song goes..<P>"I don't want the kind of love I can live with..I want the kind of love I can't live without" <BR> <BR>I don't want to settle for anything less..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR>[B]whothehellisshe,<P>Why wouldn't you want her to have to go through what you did? Why wouldn't you want her to feel that same pain?<P>Why would you want to protect her from growing to become a stronger person emotionally? Why protect her from the consequences of her actions? <P>Much like a spouse of an alcoholic who lies for them..because they don't want them to get hurt..so they don't allow them to suffer the consequences of their own actions..they feel they are responsible to protect the alcoholic at all cost, don't tell them that the bills are so far behind because they drank the money away, they won't be able to handle it..they will just drink more..well..that may be true..but they need to know the truth..and they need to be able face those things w/ out the drink..call the boss and lie for them because they are too drunk to go into work..who is the one who suffering?? the alcoholic?? NO..the family..the one who is left to face everything alone..why do so many of us feel the need to be martyrs?? if I just love them enough..if I lie enough, if I protect them enough..If I suffer enough..then things will be okay..WRONG!!! They need to be able to learn..and they can't learn from their mistakes if we keep jumping in to stop them from facing their own consquenses..<P>Yes, I understand that you love your wife..and you want to protect her from pain..but do you love her enough to allow her to grow through that pain?? and be there for her as she goes through it??? So don't be afraid that she will hurt..just be there to help her pick up the pieces when she does..B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>TR,<P>Excellent point. You're 100% right. I'm not doing her any good by being protective. That is one of the things we BS's do to enable the WS's to escape responsibility.<P><BR>who

hey, somebody stole my thread! <P>I guess my point is that I'm afraid of trying 100% to have it not work out anyway, and it's hard to tell when we're still in the same boat as we were before the A. No real connection, still very little time together, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marissa:<BR><B>hey, somebody stole my thread! <P>I guess my point is that I'm afraid of trying 100% to have it not work out anyway, and it's hard to tell when we're still in the same boat as we were before the A. No real connection, still very little time together, etc.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Sorry Marrisa,<P>All I can say is to take a chance when you're ready. Even if you get hurt you will be able to look back and say to yourself that you did all you could. What more could you ask of yourself?. One of you needs to get of the fence and make the first move.<P>who<BR>