<BR>In public with friends or at a party – my W is very warm & friendly – bubbly – no lull in conversation – almost dominates conversation & is miss personality, or miss congeniality. All smiles & jovial. I think she shows lots of affection or people would get the impression she is a loving, caring, affectionate person.<P>For example, at the golf course she initiates a big hug for her girlfriend on greeting her before the round. Another time at the golf course she is sitting at opposite end (from me) of long table & at end of evening my W initiates a hug good by for a causal guy friend of ours ---one that we do not socialize with, just an acquaintance – same evening she gives a big hug for the waitress. These hugs are typically the kind in which her arms are wrapped around the neck & no real effort to bend at waist, so as to minimize contact with the breast – in other words, what I think most people would consider very affectionate, bear hugs & not just a light gesture.<P>Another recent incident happened when we where at a bar, she is sitting next to a guy we know & in her conversation she winks at him & touches his forearm & arm 3 or 4 times as she is making points. I felt this was very flirtatious – she says it was purely innocent & she did nothing wrong<P>On the other hand, at home or in private like in the car – she is generally a very different person -- normally quiet – difficult for me to start conversation – When I leave for work in the morning ---it has improved – she allows for me to kiss her on the cheek & sometimes a peck on lips – she has never made the initiation of a hug or such to me, when I leave or if she is going out. She makes no real effort to offer signs of affection. Like I said she ahs improved & will return some affection if I take the initiative – before she would literately turn her shoulder away.<P>We have lots of sex, but seldom is there any kissing & she gets upset if I initiate asking her if she loves me – she has never initiated words that she loves me. She tells me to not tell her I love You, because it makes her feel guilty, that she can’t return the words.<P>I give her compliments & she gets upset, saying I’m nit sincere, because I hand them out too often – A part of her confession on 01/17/01 & A I discovered 20 years ago included the fact that other guys compliments just mean more. I feel a little jing jang thing here.<P>No cuddling – either sex or no contact – <P>In terms of marriage enrichment ideas & my expressed need for affection, she says that she is just not an affectionate person & cannot change --- I’m confused, seems to me the lack of affection is mostly directed towards me – not universal to others ?? Am I reading too much into her actions I described with others? She wants me to believe her actions with others is just social & normal & expected. I think, given her history with me, this changes the “expectations for normal behavior” ??? <P>As another example, at a public gathering like a party, she prefers to go off on her own. She considers hanging out with me or following my directions as to whom we interact to be demeaning to her as person or as an “individual” – she said once that I would prefer for her to walk behind me & cover her face with a vial. She tries to make me think that I’m unreasonable – what do you think? When I suggest that we stick together, she gets upset, like I’m limiting her social development & fun. She uses the phrase that I expect her & I “to be joined at the hip” And it is this attitude that is upsetting to her & is irritating & controlling & is driving her away from me.<P>To me she has never been so “self-assured” in public – it is like her A’s with two younger guys has given her new validation that she is a desirable person & it has given her a new sense of self-worth.<P>Is this a normal thing? <P>She said as a reason she fell to temptation with the A’s is that she felt we had a marriage of convenience – It is my perception that she prefers a marriage of convenience. <P>This attitude towards me compared to others, makes me wonder if she is interested in doing a little to keep our marriage arrangement, but in reality is looking for “Mr. Right.” ?? <BR>My questions to her about these things results in her accusation that I am too insecure & for me to suggest that she act with a little reserve or humility & to pay some attention to me results in her accusation that all I’m interested in is “controlling her”<P>I know I can’t control her & I can’t make her love me – am I way off with interpreting these actions or that they don’t seem like someone who is in love with their H & is trying hard to make the marriage work?<P>Given the history here, am I being unreasonable to suggest that we hang out together in public or at parties – or am I being Mr. Control.<BR>Thanks for allowing me to vent here! <BR>Peace to all!<BR>HH

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:<BR><B><BR>Given the history here, am I being unreasonable to suggest that we hang out together in public or at parties – or am I being Mr. Control.<BR>Thanks for allowing me to vent here! <BR>Peace to all!<BR>HH</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you're controlling. From the way she dresses to the way she talks to the way she shows affection. It strikes me as a thin tightrope to walk to please you.<P>You want to direct who she can have a conversation with?<BR>She's not allowed to be affectionate with anyone because she doesn't meet your EN first? (ahem....maybe its because you're having problems in your relationship, its hard to be affectionate with someone you are unhappy with....)<P><BR>

Hi Hurrian,<BR>Hmmm... It sounds to me like your wife is giving affection to everyone but you to get at you, you know, like to rub your nose in it. The fact that you have clearly asked for affection, then she states that she is not an affectionate person, but demonstrates that she can be affectionate if she wants to. How cold.<P>I hear exactly what you are saying here. I don't think you are trying to control your wife as much as you are trying to protect your feelings from being hurt and your nose being rubbed in your wife's cruelty. Then you can't feel comfortable to even discuss things? Who's controlling who?<P>I feel for you. I don't know what to say because my H is not by nature an affectionate person and I tend to wear my emotions on my sleeve. One thing I DO know is that IF a person is so-called not affectionate in general, they won't be showing OTHERS affection. My H has learned to be affectionate toward me because I like you, have expressed my great need for it. However, he is NOT out there hugging, stroking, kissing other people either--THAT will be the DAY!<P>So, I tend to agree with you that it feels like she is purposely being cruel to you by giving others what you have stated that you need and doing it right in front of your nose. I wouldn't appreciate it either. IMHO, her behavior is beyond insensitive, it's downright mean.<P>I don't know your wife, I know there are two sides, but to someone who was not raised in a very affectionate home where spontaneous strokes were given, a person like you and me can come across as very demanding. Go easy on her! <3<3<3

BINthereDUNthat,<BR>Thanks for your input. You captured my feelings and frustrations!<BR>My W does infact throw a tantrum of sorts whenever I bring up these issues. She refuses to read any MB stuff saying I'm pushing this on her. You are right, I do feel manipulated or controlled many times.<BR>In counsleing I brought up the fact that we get along great for a few days & then there is a battle. She responded in agreement, and I felt she wanted to express the fact she felt like it was my fault when we have a disagreement, like I am the one to bring up any issue. The C did not pursue that track. The C asked my W & I's objective here. The C brought out the difference in My & my W's objectives -- her's is to pretend nothing happened & mine to address the issues -- C asked my W when would be good time for her & I to discuss issues - a particular day, morning, noon, night -- my W could not agree -- The C ended last session with a different strategy that instead of me being the purser in the relationship, that my W call me every day around noon. She initialled fought this as well, like different reasons she could not call & said what if I'm not available. C said to leave message -- she calls me on my cell & has seldom not reached me. Anyway, she has done this -- only missed one day -- <BR>We cancelled our appointment on Set. 11 & we out of town last week. My W asked if we were seeing C this week & I said I thought I would give it a rest & she was happy.<BR>Do you get the impression she is not actively seeking to enhance the marriage relationship -- As you might guess, this adds to the little frustrations I expressed earlier.<P>Lexxy,<BR>I'm glad you responded here. You seem to be a lot like my wife & what you say is similar to her, so I hope to learn more from your perspectives.<BR>I would agree with what you say in the way you say it to me, it does make me seem like a control freak. I want you to know that I do not bring up these issues to her a lot -- that's why I post here to get feedback to try & see, or to be sure I am being fair in my perspectives.<BR>When you say that I try to dictate what she wears & now who she talks to, I would agree sounds terrible. My W gives me similar feedback when I try to take a position. If she had not committed an A 20 years ago & had not had some unknown invovlement in divorce proceeding with couple she babbysat 10 years ago & had A with two guys over six month period, which when they started were strangers to her, I would agree with you. Had she just had one small indiscreation, my perspective might be different. I'm a little concerned there is a pattern here, that unless there are some changes, it is not going to change. But given this history, Yes, I'm a little gun shy & would like to avoid a future occurance.<BR>You are right that I cannot continually rage on her as that does not make for a good relationship -- But on the other hand, don't you think I deserve to have my fellings protected a little here? Frankly, at times a feel like a doormat! She was very flagrent in her activities & had a very active role in pursuing these guys, yet she says she was a victem & they were preditors & she said it was my fault she has become so interested in sex, because we watched "real Sex" on HBO. Somewhere along the line I have this sense it would be good for her to acccept some responsibity. Her actions seem to indicate she is not totally out of this mood to be the game of "Boy meet Girls." I could be wrong here and I have not suggested this to her. <BR>She does not hesitate a moment to let me know her preferences of how I dress for example. This weekend I come in from mowing the grass & I had my t-shirt tucked in my shorts. She said "pull your shirt out" -- I'm sorry, I stood up to her a little & said "My god, I'm just mowing the grass & you get really upset whenever I make the slightest suggestion about how you dress?!"<BR>We have a daughter & believe me when I say that I respect women's right. I have a sense you feel I am trying to beat my W down & make her totally submissive to me. This is not my intent -- <BR>Thanks for input!<P>Peace be with all!<BR>HH<P>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited September 25, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited September 25, 2001).]

I posted this to you under recovery and wasn't sure if you saw it so here it is.<P>Have you read all the info in Marriage Builders? Right now you guys are in recovery and according to the Policy of Joint Agreement you are not enthusiastically agreeing on the way she treats other men. If she is committed to working on the marriage I think a good boundary to help restore trust would be for her to agree not to have ANY physical contact with men - a touch, a hug are inappropriate. <BR>In response to her saying your insecure: you want to actively work on rebuilding trust for your marriage and she has been untrustworthy and this (1st paragraph) will help rebuild trust in your marriage. <P>If she wants to wonder off at parties - it would also be appropriate to set a boundary for her to go off and socialize with women or if there is a guy she wants to socialize with to grab you so the three of you can talk. <P>She is being very disrespectful to you but don't lovebust and tell her that - read more about the site and start implementing the policies. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notheard:<BR><B>I posted this to you under recovery and wasn't sure if you saw it so here it is.<P>Have you read all the info in Marriage Builders? Right now <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I did see it, but got caght up in responding here. Thanks for your input.<BR>I have been unsucesful in getting her to embrace the MB stuff. Thank God she has agreed to joint C & that has helped a lot!<BR>You'll see more of my struggles with my recent post.<BR>I should emphasize that I tend to vent here & go on at times. It may seem like my W & I have continuous battles. For the most part it has been better & when ever I bring up one of these issues, we battle, but i do try to follow the A thing & as long as I do exactly as she whishes, we get along great. <BR>As you can gather from Lexxy's post, I've had problems with the way she has dressed -- she went to public swiming pool by herself, wearing a bikini, for example. She wears tank tops with string strapes. She's 48 & the A's she most recently had were with two guys 32 & 38. The summer is coming to an end, so I don't have to worry about that dress.<BR>When I have discussed the idea of joint agreement, she'dd get upset & accuss me of trying to control, her she'll say I can't keep her in a box, for example.<P>I am learning to be patient & trust we can continue progress in Counseling -- I want to be fair, but I don't want to be doormat either. I think my W asks for me to ignore a lot of facts & circumstances that I think a lot of people in my situation would not ignore.<BR>Thanks for your interest!<BR>HH<P>

Hi HH,<BR>While reading your thoughts, some things crossed my mind and I'm not going to bite my keyboard, I'm just going to let her rip, so brace yourself, here goes:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>Is your wife using you for financial status?<BR><LI>Does she even WANT to be married to you?<BR><LI>She gives me the impression that she doesn't even respect you, let alone loves you.<BR><LI>She has virtually no regard for your feelings.<BR><LI>Makes me wonder how she related to her father, you know, if they had a good relationship?<BR></UL><P>What it sounds like to me is her way of communicating and dealing with problems may go far back into how she was raised.<P>Her pattern of constantly seeking attention from men OTHER THAN her husband, makes me wonder if her father either ignored her or was not "there" for her while she was growing up?<P>Did you do something to her years ago that she is getting back at you for? You know, making you pay for? Did YOU ever have an affair--emotional or otherwise? Something is up and there's more to it than what lies on the surface. To me, it just seems like she's got it out for you!!!<P>One thing is quite obvious to me and that is she is going to do whatever the heck she pleases, whether it's dress sexy to draw attention from other guys, or give affection to everyone BUT you. This leads me to wonder WHY she is even married if her goals are not to please you?? You sound like a reasonable person to me????? (Probably because I would raise the same issues as you, so call me partial...)<P>IF she is just using you for you money, what about a Plan B implementation? Plan B is not to make your spouse miserable, just designed to preserve YOUR LOVE for them. If you continue watching her flaunt her immaturity, I'm afraid your love bank will have a negative balance pretty soon!

Hurrian,<BR>Are you a critical person? I mean, do you criticize everything your wife does or even make her feel in the slightest that she cannot please you no matter what?<P>Sometimes when men criticize us, we can get into this independent mode where we disconnect and just start doing our own thing.<P>I heard that for every critical comment, it takes 10 affirmations to erase it. What if you try to only give her compliments for the next 10 days. Okay, okay, if you can't go that long, what about 5 days? You can't say anything negative whatsoever. Not even dirty or disapproving glances!<P>Even those can cause a woman to go ballistic. We are very sensitive creatures ya know?<P>Here's a joke for you (you may have heard it already as it went out on e-mail a while back):<P>Adam and Eve had an ideal marriage. He didn't have to hear about all the men she could have married, and she didn't have to hear about the way his mother cooked.<P> Have a great day Hurrian. BE NICE!!!!

BINthereDUNthat,<BR>First I want to thank you for the time you’ve spent in responding to my posts! Your input is great!<BR>You brought up some very thought provoking points that I want to try & answer.<P>As may have gathered I am trying to access for myself my W's true motives and whether or not I want to stick around for a potential recovery (question my C has posed). After 31 years of marriage I want to be sure I am objective & fair & I do not want to be accussed of not giving this a fair chance & doing my part to make it work. Recently I have sensed my W has tried to build a case with others for reason she could justify leaving me, I think in case I decide to pull the plug, she’ll have things to say to friends, relatives, Pastor that makes me look like the villian – I.E. she mentioned to our Pastor & also a mutual friend she was concerned about me drinking too much – I also feel, based on some questions my Pastor had of me after a meeting with my W (which I initially was unaware of by the way) if I used this forum to “control” my W – I must say that She has read some of these post I had in my brief case, but I have not shown them to her, so I could not very well use these as a means to control her. <P>Yes, I feel she wants to be married for financial security reasons & it is convenient to continue to be married to me because of the web of friends and church aquantances & our family. Our Daughter is engaged & I believe my W has motives for us to me married for that reason (the Wedding). In regards to affection & feelings of love; shortly after I took her back she said she did not think she could love anyone, which I happen to think might be right.(??) After some reading, IMHO I believe she exhibits a personality trait known as Narcissum. <BR>The respect thing is another thing I have mentioned to her & asked for, but in her world nothing is more important than her own needs & to purposely make an effort to meet another’s need is like a step of admitting a weakness. <BR>Her father is a very domineering, narrow minded, self-centered, outspoken person. And as you have probabablly guessed showed her very little warmth or love & was quite critical & verbally abusive. I don’t believe he physically abused her. Her mother has no rights or priveledes & under the rule of her dad. My W freely admitts that she is very motivated to never be in a postion like her Mom. Her mom always seemed somewhat loving and caring in comparison to her dad, but my W tells me she was not really that supportive & it has only been in recent years & only on occasion do I hear her mom say good bye with a “I Love Ya” My W recently learned that her mother was molested by her mother’s brother as a youth.<P>My W has a younger sister, who is very much overweight, but I happen to hear a story where she had sex with several guys at a party. Her youngest sister had a boy outof wedlock & did not who was the father until recent years as her son developed a physical likeness. This younger sister is now divorced and raising a second son from this marriage & is in a realtionship with a man of a different race wich creates big probloems with her parents. My W's parents reaised her two female cousins sinced they were freshman in high school. They are both married and divorced. One has had numerous relationships including a two week fling with a race driver while at the Indy 500 -- she's a looker! So yes there seems to be some family issues here!<BR>I’ll admitt that one of my initial attractions to my W 31 one years ago was her reputation as being very promiscuose. I found this to be true & I got her pregnant. We were married soon after she graduated from H.S. – as a side note after I sent my W back to her parents after D/D, I learned from her boss that she had confided in her & told her she was unhappy with our marriage & was thinking of divorce. This was in the midst of her A’s & her boss asked if she was having an A & she flat out lied and said no. Also, her boss told me that my W described us as having to get married & that she was a virgin & I got her drunk – almost like date rape. So you can see my W is very good at developing stories to get people to her side! <BR>At this same time my W was starting to wear more provative cloths & was not wearing her wedding ring & telling me she could relate to how her divorced cousin felt, that she wanted more independence. Guess what I was supsious that she looking for an affair & was making a few more calls to her work and asking a few more questions. Along with the other stuff, My W was telling her boss that I was becoming too controlling, and sufficating her & this added to her frustration and reasons for wanting to leave me. <P>You can perhaps see why I post so much of these things & I am careful what issue I raise with my W – she can be very convincing to others – she was involving our grown children in her little battles with me for more independence during her A's – our daughter took up her cause for the clothes for example. My W also wanted to take ski lessons, which were given anhour and half away from home and she said she might practice until late at night – of which I had no interest – & I did put my foot down & she was she was making that a major case of my control over her. I honestly never remeber having the final word in her not doing something before -- I had strong feelings it did not pass the smell test. At the time I tried to reason with her that she is expressed a ned for independence which tells me she is not rela happy & her solution is to do things seperately, I said, we don't we take dance lessons, anything "together?!" Coincidently, I later found out her tow boy friends skied, HMMM! <P>After D/D our children did not want me to take her back & they were even vocal to her parents as they campained to solict me to take her back. My daughter in fact was very frank with my W's M in saying that any & all affection she saw beween us was from me to my W, none the other way. Our children were also very verbal with her parents in discribing their life at home with all of my W's crticisim of me & lack of support, respect. They both emulated the fact that it wasn’t until after they were away & could look back more objectively that they could see that it was not me that was the bad person so to speak, but her.<P>I guess I still feel an obligation to try & hold this togeather & make it work for all concerned – I have to make it more my way though & that is the struggle because in the past it has always been mostly all her way. I know I cannot take another infidelity. Despite her controlling, manipulative ways at times, she is charming, very attractive and in last year and a half very sexual, which is something I did not enjoy at all for the first 28 & half years of our relationship.<P>This tells you more than what you wanted to hear, but it gives you more of a backdrop as to what has lead to these current events.<BR>Lots of people have told me that she has lots of issues & I have not been the perfect angel, but after 31 years I guess I am still willing to give it more time. I just look for feedback to be sure I am being objective to help me sift through what I feel many times is a bunch of BS she throws my way.<BR>Counseling is helping – I don’t know if I can afford enough, soon enough, before she has another opportunity to stray, I don’t know if she could resist another temptation at this point. For example, if there were a young stud that made a strong advancement towards her & if she felt she could get away with it, I’m not sure she would not go for it! I’m working to deal with this on my own terms & to try to place some controls in my life – I understand that ultimatly I can’t control her or can I cure her.<BR>Thanks for your input!<BR>Peace be with you!<BR>HH<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited September 26, 2001).]

Sexual Addiction?<P>Now that you have me started, there are a couple other things I should mention to give a more complete picture.<BR>From the family history perspective, I should also mention that my W’s youngest sister had an affair with one of the cousins husbands. This was one of the cousins I mentioned that their dad raised from a teenager.<P>During my W’s A’s she had suggested to me that we involve another guy in our sex & after I declined she was always suggesting I get a porn video with two guys & a girl. In her confession she admitted to suggesting to these two guys to have a three way, but one declined. She also confessed that one day one of the guys came in the morning and the other in the afternoon. During this time she & I were typically having sex the first thing in the morning & in the evening. My W also shared with me that she had annual sex & I asked if she liked it & she said it was painful, but it was the only way he could “get off.” (this justification gave me much comfort !) <BR>On one occasion during the A’s my W had me take her to a strip club(one I had told her I visited when she was away on one of her trips back home - I mentioned I have not been a perfect angel ) and she danced with girl and was told she should come back on amateur night. She said she almost did. She then suggested she would be willing to try to involve a girl with us. I again declined.<BR>After I took her back in February, we were like in Honey Moon sex. We had intercourse 22 times from a Friday to the next Tuesday. Also she performed oral sex on me in a movie theater.<P>Before the A’s my W did not have any Victory Secret push up, breast enhancing bra’s or any thongs. Now she must have around 10 to 12 matching bra’s and thong’s. But no this has nothing to do with her sexuality, it’s all about feeling good about herself. She does look good! I’ll admit that – I would totally enjoy it if I knew for sure they were for my eyes only! They may be now, I just have a hard time sometimes discerning how she is now compared to how she was when the A’s were in high gear.<P>I mentioned all this to demonstrate that most people would obviously recognize there is a good possibility of some sexual addition issues here. It has become an intellectual exercise for me, but I am actually amazed that some people after learning of these facts question if SA is an issue. ??? I don’t want to be accusatory here at she tells me her current counselor does not believe SA is an issue , but to me there is something not right with this picture, if you don’t accept the stigma of the label of addiction, I think most would agree this kind of activity is a little bit "out there!"<P>I think you might have a better idea of why I continue to have some concern with the issues we’ve discussed. I must repeat I am slowly coming to the realization I need to focus on me & not obsess about my W’s attitude & actions, but it is a struggle!<P>Thanks for your input & hope all is well with all.<BR>HH

Hey Hurrian,<BR>Don't mention the length of your reply here, it's just that I almost missed it with all the new stuff that came up in one day! GQII is very busy!<P>Consider yourself and your wife both hugged. You are going through a lot. You would think that after 31 years, marriage should get a little easier and you could be able to exhale! My goodness!<P>On one hand, it sounds like your wife is every husband's DREAM! But then, it's like you said, if only her sexiness was for your eyes only... <P>What can I say? She seems to have bought into some lie that because she married young that she hasn't "lived" but I'll tell you like a dear friend of mine once said, "There ain't nothin' 'out there' but a yeast infection and a headache!" How true, HOW TRUE! And I have definitely been there! She is not missing anything but a truly fulfilled marriage. <P>If only she would give up trying to avoid being controlled like her mom was because it seems to me like the resentment she has for her father's treatment of her mom, PLUS the disrespect for her mom--in not wanting to become her mom--SHE HAS BECOME HER DAD!!!!!!!! Did that run-on sentence make sense to you?<P>She probably despised her dad. I could be wrong, but if her dad was like Mr.Dictator of the house, he probably ran her life too. Promiscuous teen girls don't get much love, attention, or respect from their dads so they seek it in sex with boys!<P>It just sounds to me like she might be having a mid-life thing? Women experience it too, ya know.<P>Between you and me, I can't say I know ANY 48 year old who can wear a bare midrif outfit and look terrific in it--except for movie stars! Soooo, I have to say your wife sounds breathtakingly amazing. The promiscuity tho sort of takes away from it.<P>To me, there is nothing MORE sexy than a man who loves his wife totally and completely.<P>Also to me, it sounds like you need to start doing more independent things for yourself, you know, to take better care of yourself (emotionally). Stop depending on this "little girl" to take care of you emotionally. Cuz it ain't gonna happen until she is ready to face her issues of control.<P>Dressing the way she wants and flirting with whomever she wants is maybe? her way of exercising control over her life, but it seems to me that if she controlled her impulses more, she would find what she needs is right there at home!<P>The problem is LUST is insatiable. If you did bring home another girl or another guy or screwed her in the butt and in the armpit or wherever else, it would never be enough! She would want more. So it's good that you set some boundaries. Next thing you could be facing is some STD! UGH!<P>But like others have said, at least she is at home. At least you are in counseling--focus on the good things. Don't be making eyes with your friends behind your wife's back! That is a lovebuster because it's an unfair judgment right behind her back.<P>Sometimes we have to get out of the way of trying to convince people of their inappropriate behavior and just leave it up to God. By getting out of the way, I mean, just set them free from jail, period. Like brushing dust off your hands. When we pray, God listens to our concerns, so we just have to leave the entire situation up to him.<P>You are not going to convince your wife to see things your way. All you can do is give her the gift of forgiveness. She sounds like a lost little girl to me. Be compassionate and quit telling her how old she is! Obviously she is trying to avoid that number at all costs!!! (as we all are! thankyouverymuch!)<P>But by removing your SELF and your attitudes out of GOD's way, He can give her a revelation. Something that will turn on a different thought and attitude in her way of seeing things and there ya go! That's what it means to 'let go and let God.' You let go so God can be God and do what He does best, which is work out all things for your good.<P>Good luck to you and please, promise me you will have a good weekend, regardless! HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND! make it a goal! Do something nice for yourself!<P>p.s.You are going to have to turn a blind eye and keep your concerns between you and God while you continually forgive. Forgive. Forgive. Forgive. You know what I do now when my H does something that is 'way out there' I pray, "God, did you see that? He belongs to you. You take care of him." Then I go on about my business. It helps me not to LB. It also helps HIM see what he did wrong on his own. The way your wife is, the more you tell her about herself, the more she will defy you like a teenager in rebellion. GIVE UP, HH! Surrender!!!!!!<P><p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 28, 2001).]

OOOO! I just thought of something that I know would work for you. Continue to go out with friends or whatever you need to do as a couple. Whenever your wife starts to love bust by being flirty (to me, it seems like she does it in your face purposely), either LEAVE the scene immediately or turn your attention elsewhere.<P>I mean, if I was doing something to get my husband's attention--either negative or positive--we wives do that both ways, ya know? IF his attention was focused elsewhere when I glanced back to make sure he was watching, THAT WOULD EVENTUALLY GET OLD and I would STOP the attention-getting behavior. It has worked in my M because my husband simply refuses to be manipulated by me!<P>So just keep your eye open and when it's huggie huggie, kissie, kissie, wrap your legs around another man time--physically LEAVE. Go get in the car, or grab your briefcase and start reading some posts, read your book, strike up a conversation with someone else, go to the bathroom--whatever. To me, at least for now, it seems like the only way you can protect yourself because lecturing her is like beating your head against a brick wall--which only hurts YOU MORE!

Hi,<P>I know I'm jumping in here, sorry! But I had a thought...I also think it is a MLC thing NOW, though you say she was promiscuous in the past...but she is either menopausal or pre-menopausal right now, and that can cause you to do really out of character weird things. <P>I have heard that it brings out a kind of personality panic reaction on some women...maybe she is trying to hang on to her youth before menopause hits...<P>I also read that recent research suggests that there is an actual pre-menopausal time in a woman's life which can start from the age of about 38-40, which has huge mood swings and erratic behaviour, among other symptoms.<P>Of course, she still has choice for her actions, but she MAY, big MAY not have a lot of hormonal control.<P>And BTW, didn't you ever think twice a day for sex was a lot??? She could well have a sexual addiction. There are a few sites you can look at for information.

BinThereDunThat,<BR>Thanks again for your invaluable insights.<BR>Something you said that I have heard others say to me ... focus on me! That has been a hard message for me to internalize, but I am begining to see what that means.<BR>In my W's current condition, what ever it is .. it is obviously very self centered and rigid & right now at least, I don't believe there is much I can do to alter her attitudes and actions -- I need to spend more time on ways to enhance my feelings of self & protect my feeling, ect.<BR>Is that the jist of what you are thinking?<BR>She is definatly in a MLC of major proportions & she freely admits that!<BR>I showed genuine caring for her the last couple days & I actually felt a little affection & intimacy back from her -- of course there is the sex, she actually kissed me during, a little & after as well! And she also gave me a closed mouth, affectionate kiss this morning on my departure to work. That felt good!<P>I have not called her work but maybe on or two times in last couple weeks none this week so she cannot say I am being a nusiance & trying to check up on her!-- it is a struggle though -- this is the third day now, that she has not called me at noon, like she agreed to do with our last C session. She has called me at the end of the day the last couple days. SO I have no knowledge of her activities, but I'm not going to worry about it right now.<BR>Do you think I should aks her about the noon calls or save it for counseling on Tuesday?<BR>Love & prayers to you!<BR>HH<BR>PS -- I hope you are doing well with your situation (?)-- you have spent so much time on my issues ... I hope you are finding peace as well!<P>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited September 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited September 28, 2001).]

Boy do you have a lot of stuff going on. I have to leave to pick up my children but I wanted to make a brief comment and when I have more time, I will write more.<P>Your wife wears those things to feel good about herself, that is true - but she also probably gets great compliments from other men and THAT is what makes her feel even better. There is something kind of "naughty" having another man see you in your underwear and it is an exciting feeling for a woman.<BR>I have done the same things you describe to my own H - but thankfully have caught myself in my ugliness. I can smile and be nice to everyone else and act social and laugh and as soon as I get in the car, I am the nastiest person ever. Why? To punish him and because at the moment I hated him. He never bothered to listen to me when I needed to talk - but others were willing to listen so I talked to them. When he asked why don't I talk to him I always wanted to say "You created this situation" - lack of communication. Usually he would try to conjole me into talking to him and then a few days later, slip back into the "falling asleep during a coversation" or "zoning out." It sounds to me like she despises you (don't mean to hurt your feelings). Is there a way the two of you could see a counselor - first separate and then together? I am certainly not one to dole out advice - I am new at all this, but my H and I are to the point where we are actively working on our relationship. I just have a few (small) issues to deal with.<BR>Gotta go.

HH,<P>THere are many things I would like to say, but first I wanted to touch on something you said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are right that I cannot continually rage on her as that does not make for a good relationship -- But on the other hand, don't you think I deserve to have my fellings protected a little here? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HH, you don't deserve to have your feelings protected anymore than you deserve to have her love you. She doesn't owe you anything.<P>This sounds harsh but I have a point to make. When you finally come to that realization, you will realize several things that are often stated here. You can only change yourself, and she has to want to respect your feelings and love you. No amount of boundaries, or comments about her clothes will change this very hard fact.<P>Now, if you asked: should she respect your feelings and love you? The answer is as you W she should.<P>You have been married for 31 years, but it is clear she has not been "married" to you that long. HH, it seems to me it is time to back off, quit setting boundaries, have a long hard talk with her about what you expect a marriage to be, and then tell her it is really up to her. <P>It doesn't really make any difference if she calls you at noon, but if she is not going to then she needs to tell you. It doesn't make any difference if she screws every man in town, but if she is married she shouldn't be doing this. You however cannot control her if she decides to do this.<P>What can you control? Yourself, your attempts to control her, whether you are married or not, and if you are married are you married to her. You already know she has some severe problems, you already know that she loves the challenge of capturing another man, you already know that she views "having" to meet your needs as controlling. You already know she is clueless about marriage, and that she has had at least 3 affairs. You already know all of this.<P>So my feeling is that you should back off, way off. Start planning for a divorce and if things don't improve divorce her. You cannot heal her, and you cannot make her want to be healed. She will have to do this. She will not suffer from lack of male companionship as you well know and sadly she may not miss much of anything about your marriage, but only she knows or will know.<P>HH, you and I are of comparable ages. Life is too short to spend your time trying to corral this woman into a marriage or into loving you. The world is full of wonderful people that hold commitment, marriage, and love in much higher regard than your W. Don't be afraid to move on if she is driving you nuts.<P>But no matter what you decide about your marriage, do decide to not bother to control her. Perhaps, she will find it challenging to try and seduce and attract you as you pull away. I don't know.<P>Anyway, just my $0.02. You seem to beating your head against the wall,and she doesn't care if you have a concussion.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Something tells me you are not quite ready to give up, but you might have to give up on the wardrobe and affection/flirting issues for the time being. Let her be herself. She's going to be herself in spite of you but at least it won't hurt you anymore when you decide YOU won't let it.<P>When something about YOU changes, the difficult person might not even change their annoying behavior, heck, they may never change in life, but if YOU change, what they do won't matter to you anymore. Because YOU changed...<P>You asked about my situation. Yes, all is well, thanks for the thoughts and prayers. Same here for you!<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited October 01, 2001).]

Thanks to all for your dedicated replies, I appreciate the attention! <BR>Nina too,<BR>Her change in Sexual Drive, loss of weight & way of dress all came around the same time the most recent A's started or just prior to. She oftern talks about her disstress of her age 48.<BR>She is definately pre menapasual & I thought her hormones may have been out of balance, as I have read that as the estrogen lessens the male swex hormones may play a bigger part. Her recent GYN tests for hormone levels evidently came back as normal. <P>Lizie,<BR>Your discription about yourself being very outpsoken & then when with H very quiet, describes what I experience with my W to a tee! What can I say.<P>Just Learning,<BR>I hear you loud & clear. Your message is not offending in the least. As you might imagine, your points are ones I am starting to come to grips with & I you makes some very, very good points!!<BR>BeenThereDunThat,<BR>Again,<BR>Thanks for your feedback!<P>To all!<BR>I have tried really hard to back off the dress & afffection things. She has been trying & she is doing better with the affection thing.<P>I continue to try & use this forum as a means to vent & not vent on my W.<BR>We have gotten along well for the past week or so. I have not brought up too many issues & she is being more respectful, ECT. -- our discussion on issues have been on a more civil level. I have not tried to promote any MB stuff. She said today she thinks we have been doing good. Of Course she would -- I'm not asking her to change in any way & she continues to do pretty much wants she wants -- no pain for her! -- I sense that she is careful not to vent on me, so that she can declare to our Counselor that she is doing her part & if I have insecurities about her, it is my problem & not hers. Here again it is noon & no call from her -- I have not asked her about this.<BR>We are in a dance -- on one hand, I love the sex & she is being nicer to me -- if ignore her dress & the way she acts in public, I could conceivable me a happy camper. The bottom line however is that I just don't have a feeling of trust with her yet & I honestly feel that given the right opportunity she would be in the A's game again. One of her confessions was that regarding the first guy at least, not other had made such direct & forcful advances -- I guess I could go forward with the idea that the odds are that no other guy will be so adventursome with specific adances??<BR>I'll remain patient for time being & see what the counseling brings!<BR>Peace be with you!<BR>HH<BR>You know so many of my issues & many have pointed out, there seems to be a lot of eveidence that she really does not love me & I do get the sense that she is willing to do a little or whatever she feels she needs to in order to justify an image that she is trying & wants the marriage, while at the same time doing her own thing to keep alive the possibility for other adventures outside the marriage with the possibility of even finding a new more suitable mate?? Congecture on part. <P>We have a C session tomorrow morning & I get so wrapped up in different aspects I would entertain ideas anyone thinks should be my primary issues to bring up?<BR>As I believe I have expressed before, with our history & family & friends, I probablly should not care, but I hesitate to force seperation or divorce issues in that it seems the issues of dress & my perception of her attitude that these would seem petty. -?? <P>I guess what some are saying, why ignore some obvious signs & does it really matter what other people think. If in my heart I do not see committment -- so be it.<P>Just wondering out loud ...<p>[This message has been edited by Hurrian Hoosier (edited October 01, 2001).]

HH,<P>You asked about primary issues, beside the dress and behavior. It seems to me you stated them very well in the following paragraph.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You know so many of my issues & many have pointed out, there seems to be a lot of eveidence that she really<BR>does not love me & I do get the sense that she is willing to do a little or whatever she feels she needs to in order to justify an image that she is trying & wants the marriage, while at the same time doing her own thing to keep alive the possibility for other adventures outside the marriage with the possibility of even finding a new more suitable mate?? Congecture on part. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I suspect you wouldn't mind if she went around nude, if you were certain of the issues that you bring up in this paragraph. It seems to me this is the bedrock of all of the issues, and certainly should be discussed with the C. In fact, I would probably take this paragraph with you so that you don't get sidetracked before mentioning these issues.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>HH,<BR>I suspect you wouldn't mind if she went around nude, if you were certain of the issues that you bring up in this paragraph. <BR>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just Learning,<BR>Thanks!<BR>I hope I have not worn everyone out with this dialoge! <BR>I have so much to learn & she takes some offense if <BR>I read or work on how I chose to deal with this at home, like she says that I waste my time on this stuff -- it is her outward perception that if we are nice to each other & I don't bring up these issues & we get back to normal routines,where we were before, likenothing happened, everything will be good!<P>The problem is, as you probably know, the way it was before was not nearly as good as I thought it was & the things that I would normally use to judge, like lots of sex & her being nice to me as measuring sticks to how we were doing, are the same now as they were then? We have lots of sex & as long as I don't bring up any marriage enrichment ideas or question any of her attitudes, she is typically very friendly & she does show more affection on occasion. Confusing isn't it.<BR>I guess I am made differently, but I have been pretty clear that I have lots of insecurities & am needy. I can't help but think that if it were me that did to her what she did to me, I would be very diligent in reporting my activities. I would bring home chocolates, sending cards & flowers and leaving little notes to show my devotion & committment & love. <BR>Last year I planned an elaborate 30th aniversary getaway weekend that included two couple friends. In her confession she spoke of the first time her & first guy went to motel, it was 5 days after we returned from aniversary weekend. She described her motel visit with this guy as if it were a special event, -- memorable, she sais she remembers because she remembered she was telling him about the weekend. Anniverary: September 5 --this year I took her out to dinner, as it happens, after our last conseling session. I just could not find the energy or stomoch to get her a card like I usually do. I was hoping she might see the opportunity to give me a card, thanking me for sticking with her & her expressing a renewed committment to me -- As you may guess -- no card, no nothing. <BR>She would say that she is just not that kind of person -- She has told me she just cannot be the lovey, dovey type person! <P>She acts as if I need to show her my committment and undying trust or I am the one that is creating a problem in our marriage healing -- <P>Am I missing something here?!!<P>I'm not that bothered actually. I just need to vent here, so as to try & remind myselve of the reality of things & that perhaps someone will see something here that I am missing. Perhaps it is not just me, but that she is genuinely not cable of love for anyone, as she has suggested to me on occasion.<P>Thanks again for your feedback & attention.<BR>Peace be with you,<BR>HH