SadNLonely posted in Marissa's post "A question for WS" that 'love was not a decision....'<P>Really?<P>I read so many posts from WS's that say in essence...I didn't mean for it to happen. It just did. I knew it was wrong. The 'in love' feelings were just so strong. <P>Some where along the line YOU MADE A DECISION, whether concious or unconscious, to follow your heartbeats and throbbing libido right to the OP. YOU DID.<P>I was dead inside. The OP made me feel alive. The feelings were so strong. We just 'fit.' <BR><B>WARNING--THE FOLLOWING IS A DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENT--read at your own risk: </B><I>Oh, bother...what separates us from animals is free will and our ability to think...don't use your free will and then say "Poor Me." Don't rationalize and point fingers at BS. YOU MADE A CHOICE. </I><P>Now as to being poor mate selectors...if your poor mate selectors...your poor mate selectors...something made you marry BS to begin with and, I believe, that something about us 'fit.' <I>SnL, I am tired of the 'we were young' excuse. Lots of us here WERE NOT young. I was 26, my H 29...his OW was 40 and has been married 4X...the marriage she is currently in is barely 2 yrs old...</I><P>ALL OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS ARE DOOMED FOR FAILURE BECAUSE WE ARE DOMESTICATED/SOCIALIZED THAT WAY! We believe that we NEED love...that we must be GIVEN love...that another person COMPLETES US...<P>YOUR OWN LOVE FOR YOU is the most important and you must be FILLED WITH LOVE FOR YOURSELF...THEN you desire to freely SHARE LOVE TO ANOTHER is also a factor...I share love because I desire to...I am filled with love...and I have love to SHARE...<P>But what do we humans do? We qualify and quantify love. Do we have enough from someone...is it good enough? We expect and expect. We become dissatisfied and angry...and our love diminishes and we feel dead...empty...<P>Then those demon feelings arise...for someone other than spouse...we tingle...we talk...they understand us in a fresh way...they see us with new eyes...we have a new image of ourselves...a fresh image...a newborn/reborn image...and it feels so good...we are alive again...BUT THAT IMAGE IS FALSE...<P>In the early days it is easy to be filled with love, because our expectations are so low...a smile, a wink can fill us up...but we will grow needier...our expectations will rise...small deposits will need to grow bigger (kinda like a drug fix needs to get bigger as the addiction grows stronger)...because WE DON'T LOVE OURSELVES...WE ARE NOT FILLED WITH LOVE...and, because of that, we so need love from another person...<P>Love is not a decision? Then perhaps you ought to make it one...especially if you expect to become a better mate selection. Start with loving yourself and figuring out who you are...<P>Cali<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<B>Some where along the line YOU MADE A DECISION, whether concious or unconscious, to follow your heartbeats and throbbing libido right to the OP. YOU DID.</B><P>Yes, I made that decision (though it "felt" like it made me). The reason I decided to do what I knew was wrong was because it was too hard to turn away from and there IS that strong feeling of it "being" right....at least somewhere in our minds.<P>Sno<BR>

Im with you cali---Love is a MAJOR decision, and a choice, too!

Hey I said love is not a decision, but decideing to try and love is...play fair now. Yes everything in life is a decision if we want to go there, but then the point is well...... pointless. I do not agree that one can decide themself into being in-love......but I am fair, I also do not believe one can decide themselves into NOT being in-love....and therein lies the tradgedy for ws/op who are truly in-love. If they do not cleave (for whatever reason life intrudes with) they must live with the pain of seperation forever. The good news is very few affairs actually are love affairs. And (as the harley's point out) they are the tradjedies, and never really end, which is why you must work so hard at keeping the two individuals apart. What I can't help wondering is why don't we (as a culture) encourage the union, the more in-love unions we have the better methinks. But long as we insist on loading intense pressure/guilt on such folks, most of who are highly ethical people, we assure many of them will live sacrificially instead (rather than hurt others), it is a terrible loss, and a shame.<P>This will no doubt raise the ire of some, but ws who find themselves in such unions, hope their bs will give em up, cause that is the only way they can see out. Not cause of the affair, the ws will indeed give it up, but because the bs does not want to be married either for their own reasons, and is not angry about it, but lets the ws go with goodwill. But that rarely happens, people being people, the bs usually goes berserk, as does the family, none of who care one whit about the ws needs or feelings, just demands that the ws behave in a way that makes them happy....why do people do this? Why can't people just be with who they want? Why do we feel we are "owed" someones very life? How is that love?<P>of course this means if your ws is truly in-love with you (and you them), not to worry, they will be back, they can never leave you, and will fight for you. Such is the risk of mating and marrying. <P>Don't get mad at me, I didn't invent this stuff, I just have observed it, and comment on it. Who knows, maybe I am just a foggy ws who doesn't really know anything. But there is some underlying truth to all this, that's for sure.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 24, 2001).]

Steve Harley <B>specifically</B> told me that, in his opinion, love is <B>not</B> a decision... Love grows as a result of needs being met, and Love Bank becoming filled.<P>WS's make a specific decision to start meeting OP's needs, and get their needs met by OP, which is why they fall in love with each other. Of course their negligence in meeting their spouses' needs during that time, and the resultant reciprocation from their spouse, causes them to "fall out of love" with their spouse, leading to the patented "I'm not in love with you" speech... Makes sense to me.<P>AGG

cali.... I was dead inside. The OP made me feel alive. The feelings were so strong. We just 'fit.' <BR>WARNING--THE FOLLOWING IS A DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENT--read at your own risk: Oh, bother...what separates us from animals is free will and our ability to think...don't use your free will and then say "Poor Me." Don't rationalize and point fingers at BS. YOU MADE A CHOICE. <P>snl...???? How is this about the bs, I thought the issue was the ws being in-love (and what that means or doesn't mean).<P>cali...Now as to being poor mate selectors...if your poor mate selectors...your poor mate selectors...something made you marry BS to begin with and, I believe, that something about us 'fit.' <P>snl....Not at all cali. I know you can appreciate people get married for all kinds of reasons, some of them incredibly toxic, and or selfish. Why for example does a physical abuser marry? They fit allright, if he marries someone who will "take" it, but that is hardly a good reason to stay married. Why do people regularly lie and misrepresent themself trying to get someone to marry them? Even good people do this. Put on their best face, hide their faults, not practice radical honesty. Story after story after story here is posted about serious deficiencies people concealed (porn, previous love affairs, homosexuality, criminal behaviour, drug use, old..but still active... romantic relationships, sexual abuse, psychological counselling, the list is endless)....until people really know who they are marrying, we are gonna have serious problems, and marriages that definitely were not made in heaven.<P>cali...SnL, I am tired of the 'we were young' excuse. Lots of us here WERE NOT young. I was 26, my H 29...his OW was 40 and has been married 4X...the marriage she is currently in is barely 2 yrs old...<P>snl...Ok, I overused young as a placeholder for the condition of entering a marriage without having had full disclosure, and a serious look at our psychological fit, in PSYCHOLOGICAL terms. The problem is not immoral behaviour on the part of a ws (although could be) it is the incredibly bad job of mate selection we make, and the mockery we bring to vows by people incapable of honoring them. And to my chagrin, I was one of them. I was 27, dated w for 5 years, and married her cause I felt responsible for her, not cause I was in-love with her, I did it out of duty, committment, all those things promoted here....and it didn't work, cause the marriage was not based on radical honesty and poja, as it should be. She did something similar, but that my circumstances are not the point. We married for the "picture", as sadly do most people, and we learn about mate selection and marital psychology on the job, and that is why we have so much marital dysfunction and misery and divorce. Not cause people are selfish, but because you do not easily fit just anyone, in fact I think finding the right person is actually pretty difficult. At least that theory fits the observeable facts. <P>cali....ALL OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS ARE DOOMED FOR FAILURE BECAUSE WE ARE DOMESTICATED/SOCIALIZED THAT WAY! We believe that we NEED love...that we must be GIVEN love...that another person COMPLETES US...<P>snl...But what if that is true cali, we really are incomplete without the right person? You are trying to make the facts wrong by saying everyone is screwed up, I think the simpler explanation is we are pretty much what we are, and it does matter who we marry. That is provable by the way, and all the psychologists (including the harley's know it...and I have asked them).<P>cali...YOUR OWN LOVE FOR YOU is the most important and you must be FILLED WITH LOVE FOR YOURSELF...THEN you desire to freely SHARE LOVE TO ANOTHER is also a factor...I share love because I desire to...I am filled with love...and I have love to SHARE...<P>snl...I think what you describe comes as a result of marrying the one you fit, and I think it is by observing happy marriages (the small % that truly are happy, in-love...around 20%) that writers such as ruiz draw their material. The assumption is that we can have this with anyone, it just doesn't pan out, that would mean we are not human beings with human psychology. Maybe bees, or ants. What is unclear is how many people we do fit, and to what degree (is needed to be in-love), and of course the spiritual angle, does God have a marital plan for each of us, that in our freewill we so often turn away from, I think He does. But I do agree, someone who does not love themself is not ready for marriage. But I wonder if exposure pre-maritally to one's in-love may have a synergy that helps one love themself.<P>cali....But what do we humans do? We qualify and quantify love. Do we have enough from someone...is it good enough? We expect and expect. We become dissatisfied and angry...and our love diminishes and we feel dead...empty...<P>snl..I don't believe people who truly love each other are ever going to have a pattern of hurtful anger.<P>cali....Then those demon feelings arise...for someone other than spouse...we tingle...we talk...they understand us in a fresh way...they see us with new eyes...we have a new image of ourselves...a fresh image...a newborn/reborn image...and it feels so good...we are alive again...BUT THAT IMAGE IS FALSE...<P>snl...Why is it false...maybe for the first time in ones life someone really sees you, if so that would be powerful, yes? What about spouses who never see you, they only see how you relate to them?<P>cali....Love is not a decision? Then perhaps you ought to make it one...especially if you expect to become a better mate selection. Start with loving yourself and figuring out who you are...<P>snl...Actually I do love myself, I think I am a good man, my wife has never thought so (as evidinced by her behaviour, and her direct comments that I am a loser). In fact that is why I left her twice while dating, cause I found myself feeling bad about myself, but only with her. This is true for many people cali, I probably cause the same affect in her. I think there is a negative synergy when people do not fit, and that is why you must work so hard, to overcome it.... but that begs the question, why do it at all? When a marriage is based on need, fear (of loneliness), history (investment of resources), peer pressure (family and freinds), and so forth, that is not love, but because one is willing to make the best of it, we falsely call it love.... but it doesn't work, it can't, and no one is really very happy. But we have a culture that says do it anyways, happy is a decision, look for it elsewhere...in yourself, your kids, your good works...OK, that is all well and good, but NOTHING will open the special box inside that waits the right person, the one with the key, the box that completes you, and transcends the marital contract to oneflesh. Should one give that up? We know people can live without it, many, maybe most do, but should they? Must they? Is something each has to decide for themself.<P>

that is true good guy, love is not a decision, jennifer told me the same, but I pressed harder, she would not gaurantee one will always find love with who they are married to, that it does matter, fit does count......but she said it can and will be better than it is now (well of course...jeez), so what does one have to lose? (make the decision to try, in other words). The issue then of course comes down to motivation, why not try then with the op? And let your spouse try with someone else? Everyone will be in-love soon enough..right?<P>This stuff makes me crazy, how about you?<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 24, 2001).]

Gotta reply...can't help myself today...this just strikes me..<P>SnL replies "but ws who find themselves in such unions, hope their bs will give em up, cause that is the only way they can see out."<P>Ya know, I have a problem with this...if the WS wants out...THEY should take the steps..not wait on the BS's reaction. That's cowardly and makes me believe that anyone that truly feels that way simply doesn't have the courage to live their own life. They're looking for someone else to take responsibility for the decision to leave. And, if life falls apart for them...hey..not their fault...she didn't want me...real convenient way to avoid guilt.<P>Whether love is a decision or not is irrevelent, and we'll never reach consensus...Acting in a loving and considerate fashion is a decision. The good old Golden Rule just plain needs reviving! <BR>T <P><p>[This message has been edited by Twyla (edited September 24, 2001).]

you are right twyla, it is cowardly, and it took me a lot of hard work to figure out how to deal with it, but I did figure it out.....finally.

FYI--<P>we are all 'hurting' in some way...we all have 'damaged' souls and work our whole life to 'fix' ourselves and find some meaning in life...<P><I>hence the need for a Savior...</I><P>I hear a lot about how BS's treated WS's...can I ask you all<BR>"How did you love your spouse? Upon what conditions did you share or not share love?"<P>We are the sum total of all the images that we perceive others perceive of us...by the time we are adult some of us have 'lost' who we are...the crux of a mid-life crisis, I think. And, yes, I do believe that the image you get from a OP is false...it is as false as the image you get from BS or anyone else...YOU HAVE TO CREATE YOUR OWN IMAGE OF YOURSELF... by breaking old agreements and making new ones.<P>Okay...so if love is NOT a decision...but caring and treating others with love is...why do so many WS's justify their new love by saying how 'inadequate' the BS love was? Methinks it is not our love that was inadequate...but YOUR PERCEPTION OF OUR LOVE...and your need to quantify or qualify it.<P>Why do I still love my H...because I always have...even when I was raging and angry, it was because I was frustrated and knew that he was holding back in the relationship...but I always have given to him...now I am learning how to go even deeper...not just give things, or do things...or even have s#x...but to share deep down things I have shared WITH NO ONE.<P>It was not that my love was inadequate...it was as you said those walls SnL...<P>Why is easier to start fresh than demolish old walls? Don't you know that you started without walls? Don't you know that walls will be erected in a new relationship? It is, as you say, human nature.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>sad_n_lonely<BR> you are right twyla, it is cowardly, and it took me a lot of hard work to figure out how to deal<BR> with it, but I did figure it out.....finally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Exactly what have you figured out SNL? You continually show contempt where your W is concerned. Continue to belittle all her efforts to save the marriage. Make light of BSes everywhere who are attempting rebuild/hang on to/save/repair themselves and their marriages. <P> I know a lot of what you say must be taken completely wrong by me. I mean I simply cannot believe that you would stay in a marriage such as you describe. If your marriage is all you say, if thinker is as evil/mean/whatever as you claim. WHY STAY??? In the end you do her a disservice by giving her false hope. <P> Sorry SNL. From what I have read thinker knows her faults from the past. She wants to change those faults. You give her hope that she has a chance. Your words in this forum prove 1 of 2 things. <P>1. You are fogged in so deeply you cannot see half an inch in front of you.<P>or<P>2. You don't want to try. You want thinker to put up with your bullsh*t until she can't take it anymore and files herself. Releiving you of any blame or guilt for the breakup. <P> I personally think she should file, and take you to the cleaners in the process. But this comes from another tortured BS. So what do I know? Not much maybe. Certianly not as well spoken as you, but I can see the injustice you are doing to thinker.<P> Shame of it is, there are some things you say that make good sense. Just wish you could find it in yourself to try a little harder to give your marriage a fair chance. Stop trying to PSYCHOLOGICALLY fit everything together. <P> jd

And how, snl, exactly did you "deal with it"? By having an affair?<P>You know, reading your posts today is exactly like reading them 3 months ago. You have come no closer to understanding the true meaning of this website in all that time. <P>You have consistently blamed your wife for the poor quality of your marriage and have taken little responsibility on yourself. You have consistently argued that you cannot do anything to bring the love back into your marriage, while doing little except looking for "guarantees" that it will come back. You argue every point that anyone makes to you regarding YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to the woman you married.<P>I know that writing this will be a lot like banging my head against a brick wall, but I am going to do it anyway.<P>And, I am going to go against what the Harleys have been quoted as saying about love and decisions. I am going to write this as if *we* are the WS...<P>Perhaps, when you are groping blindly in the dark about love and marriage, love just "happens" and you find someone with whom you just "fit" - generally speaking, that is the person we marry. And most of us do so without any real idea of what the committment we are making means in terms of our lives. We are happy for a time, but without any idea of how to STAY in love, we often find ourselves dissatisfied, missing something ... empty. We generally feel that somehow, our spouse is the reason we are unhappy, completely missing the point that <B><I>we are responsible for our own happiness!!!</I></B> If we continue to feel unhappy and empty, the attentiveness of an OP will feel so incredibly rewarding that we might just believe that THIS person can bring us happiness... continuing to miss the point that nobody else can "make" us happy. We find ways to justify why it is ok to violate the committment we have made. After all, our spouse must not truly love us anymore if we feel so empty, right? And it is ok, then, to find happiness with the OP without any attempt at repairing our marriage.<P>It is then that we have the opportunity to make choices and decisions and take actions to bring the love back into our own marriages. Unfortunately, we generally make the mistake of allowing ourselves to be swept along with the "feelings" evoked by the OP. And we make a choice to be unfaithful... to break the covenent of our marriage... to take the first steps toward inflicting the most horrifying emotional pain that a married person can ever feel - and inflicting it on the person we once loved enough to marry.<P>Then, the news comes out... our spouse is horrified, in agony, emotionally battered and broken. Perhaps we realize how terrible our actions are - most often not. Generally, we justify, justify, justify... if our spouse hadn't ruined the marriage, we would NEVER have strayed!!!<P>At some point, perhaps we feel enough obligation or guilt to agree to an attempt to salvage the marriage. Our heart, of course, is not in it - we are convinced that the marriage is over, that there is no way we can ever feel love for our spouse again.<P>Here is where we make the choice or decision to love. If we never believe that it can happen, it won't. If we never make an attempt to feel good about our spouse, we won't. This is where it is up to US ... <P>How? By NOT having to be right about everything. By NOT blaming our spouse for our affair. By DECIDING that it IS possible to be happy in our marriage! We take responsibility for our actions, we practice a little humility... we take charge of our own happiness! We do not make our spouse responsible for any of what we have done... We find ways in which to meet the emotional needs of the spouse we betrayed and we will discover that giving is far more rewarding than taking. We display respect, courtesy and remorse, even if we don't feel exactly that way - it is RIGHT. And by doing so, we give ourselves the most incredible opportunity to be happy in a NEW marriage with the OLD spouse!<P>We can grouse and whine and argue about whether or not love is a decision or just something that "happens" to us, but the bottom line is that by DOING what needs to be done, we can bring love back into our marriages. It has been done time and again, and will continue to be not just possible, but probable - IF WE DO THE WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.<P>Life did not come with guarantees. And it never will.<P>SNL, be bold - either make the decision to be happily married to your wife, or make the decision to leave so that she can move on to a rewarding life without you. But DO SOMETHING. The philosophical BS you spout every day here on the Marriage Builders forums is just that - BS. And cowardly BS to boot. Be a MAN. Stop trying to justify your wrongs and just DO SOMETHING to rectify the situation.<P>I'm sure that you will pick apart my diatribe and argue your petty little arguments against my words. And that is fine by me - because by doing so, you are only proving me right.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Wow... I read the book... "Love is a Decision"... and I believe you CAN have a mindset to love someone... however, often times when you have been hurt, you have to allow your heart to catch up. (Not always easy when there has been resentment and anger over the years). Allowing your heart to catch up is accomplished with deposits in your Love Bank..(as Dr. Harley says).<P>So, I believe its a dual thing...you have to make a decision..and then allow your heart to follow. Soooooo, if love can be a decision.......NOT to love can also be a decision.... and thats where WS's have failed... they allowed themselves to be swept away...mind and heart...<P><P>------------------<BR>..climbing the rainbow..

SnL, were you serious when you wrote:<P>>>>, ...the bs usually goes berserk, as does the family, none of who care one whit about the ws needs or feelings, just demands that the ws behave in a way that makes them happy....why do people do this? Why can't people just be with who they want?<<<<P>...were you serious? <P>Do you not see the selfishness in those words? Do you not see the lack of adult responsibility? You think it's out of line for a spouse to expect fidelity? Not cheating is too much to ask, an unreasonable demand? In other posts you've actually trivialized vows--you know, promises, oaths, giving your word, etc? You believe your feelings are more important than your word? You can't understand why you can't just do whatever you want whenever you want with whomever you want without maybe somebody disapproving? My little girl, a fourth grader, doesn't always understand that either, but she's coming along nicely.<P>SnL, stop trying to justify your behavior with psychobabble. Stop trying to rationalize your choices with all your circular overanalysis. Go see a doc about clinical depression--you have classic symptoms. Above all, be a man! Make a decision, and act already! Don't just sit there waiting for your wife to boot you out & save you from having to make any hard choices yourself! If you have your perfect fairytale soulmate out there waiting for you with the perfect fit love and no-maintenance life of bliss, then go, don't just pine away sitting at the computer! Show us all how heavenly life can be! Give your wife a chance to get on with her life!<P>Or get off your duff, stop feeling so damn sorry for yourself, and get to work on your marriage! Yes, the word is WORK! Enough with the excuses and how hard it is and how miserable you are that you don't fit and how psychologically this and that blah blah blah. <P>Go to the mirror, look yourself in the eye, decide what kind of man you are, and what kind of man you want to be, and DO IT! Yes it's that @#*%ing simple! I didn't say easy, I said simple! Grow up! You can do it! Quite a few of your posts hint that you have in you, somewhere, a sense of honor, of right and wrong, courage....then you let it all get swallowed up while performing a great impression of Mr. Spock throwing a pity party! <P>We want you to succeed, SnL, but you gotta want to succeed, and more than that---wanting is not enough---you need to act. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by RustyZ (edited September 25, 2001).]

Oh my goodness, RustyZ and Terri and jdmac.... wish I could have put it as clearly as you all did...I just end up usually using not so nice words with snl. I really hope he heeds your words... they make so much sense. LISTEN snl. LISTEN.

Terri, confused mom, and others, I won't stupify us all into unconciousness with a massisve tit for tat reply you could all probably write for me by now anyways....I want to thank everyone (and I will do a more formal thanks when the time comes) for taking their time to respond, in detail, to my seemingly endless forays into what is love, marriage, and what do we do about it. Believe it or not, it has been immensely helpful and there will be an end to this, I am determined, and focused, but not dysfunctionally obsessive. I needed to do this, I was unwilling to act solely on my own feelings, without a lot of peer review. Sometime in the next few weeks (hopefully) I will sumarize in coherent form by actual conclusions on all these issues (vs the free ranging, devils advocate investigative efforts I often make), for those who are interested. re this thread a few more comments, and I may go back (time permitting) and reply to other nuances (that have not been throughly hasehed allready.<P>It pretty much seems to boil down (for many) for whatever reason, you are gonna "love" whoever you married, unless tremendous reason not to is given (much more than simple selfishness, neglect, or lieing and cheating in an affair)..... not really fitting is insufficient reason....you are willing to accept that hard work, maybe lots of hardwork is part of the deal, and you are not going to focus much on how happy you are or are not. You are going to do this and call it love, hoping you are treated just as well in return, and if not, then will just accept it as kinda bad luck, but nothing you can divorce over. I confess to complete befuddlement (even though I did the same for 23 years) why you (and I) did that. I now try to find a reason to sleep with someone, grweater than just because...(you are married to them). I desperately want marriage to be more significant than just the happenstance of who you married (the piece of paper/contract/vow marital model). I don't know why, I just do, the thought that it made no difference who I married horrifies me. That marriage is just work and nothing more depresses me. That happiness is just a choice leaves me feeling hopeless.....that it makes no difference who my w is married to (me) that she just loves me cause I am her husband crushes my spirit. I don't want marriage to be a contract, a business arrangement (you meet my en and I will meet your en)...I want it to be special, I want it to be something that can only be fullfilled by one who fits a certain way, such person not very common, maybe only 1. I don't want it to be work (not cause I mind work) because then it could be anyone. I am beginning to think I am crazy. You are all so convinced you can love anyone, just marry em, and have history, and do the work....I just don't get it, why even live? There is nothing special in that, anyone can do it, why be married at all? Just have a stable of "friends" who in toto meet all your needs far better than any one person could. But..... if there are such things as soulmates, that all changes, and it does make a difference who you are married too (for them as well as you obviously).

Well, I give up. You managed again to twist everybody's advice, encouragement and chastisement into fueling your own self pity. You've (deliberately?) missed the point and recast our words into ideas we don't even slightly recognize. I hope that your continued presence here will be helpful to you, but it's not really clear that you want help (unless the help is to make the world and your life exactly the way you want it or you're gonna take your ball and go home). Since you don't seem to want to make it work with your wife, here's a favor you could do everybody...you don't want to work at relationships? Then DON'T YOU DARE EVER marry again. There is no woman out there who deserves the consequences of making a committment to a man who does not think he should have to work at marriage. <P>All that "well I guess it just doesn't matter who you marry" and "I guess being happy isn't important" is such a load of woe-is-me self-serving crap and you know it. Spare us the martyr routine. You're too intelligent, I think anyway, to actually believe contorted oversimplifications you've constructed out of our advice to you...I think you just don't want to face up to the hard decisions you need to make or the consequences of your actions. You're not doing your wife any favors by "sacrificing" yourself for the sake of "duty". <P>Either you want to save your marriage or you don't. The same goes for Thinker. If you want to save your marriage, then what are you going to do about it? Don't work on "trying", work on "doing"....if you fail, at least there is some honor and dignity to be salvaged from that. I think you both need to humble yourselves before each other, (Thinker, I'm purposely including you in this because this job will require both of you!), and forget about what you want--concentrate instead on what you can give. Yes, SnL, successful marriage requires one to put aside selfish desires. Guess what...it is through serving that one recieves back what they give 10-fold--you used to teach that in Sunday school, I'll bet, SnL. You won't give, then you won't recieve--that giving is the "work" you are so afraid of.<P>I know I'm kicking you in the butt, SnL, but if you're on MB, then I'm assuming you really want honest help and advice, and right now I honestly think you need a kick in the butt! <P>

rusty, I have been working for 23 years, how about you? How much is enuf...I am the one that drug us to counsellors, I am the one that plan a'd for most of those years, I am the one who was emotionally responsible in the marriage, I am the one who was told he was no good, and didn't deserve to be loved for much of that time.....now, I am told to just do it some more, tear down the walls, the walls I begged my wife not to let build, and trust her, and that everything will be just peachy keen...... excuse me if I am just a weeeeeeee bit reluctant. When you have been there, come talk to me. Betrayal of vows comes in more than one flavor big guy, something I think the bs don't always remember. Frankly if I had to choose what my wife has experienced over what I experienced, I'd switch with her in a heartbeat....better the fairly quick chop to the head, than the death of a thousand tiny knifes IMO. And i haven't twisted anything, I repeated very accurately (IMO) what has been said to me....most do not agree it makes much difference who they marry, they think it is more about work. I do appreciate the advice and encouragement (including yours) and the goodwill I believe is there (even when I am being dissed), but it ain't that easy bud, or I would have already done it. I don't particulary enjoy being depressed, lost, and the lightning rod for those who believe every marriage should be saved.<P>r...but it's not really clear that you want help (unless the help is to make the world and your life exactly the way you want it or you're gonna take your ball and go home). <P>snl...cripes rusty, ball and go home? I think whose bed I sleep in is important enough it should be where I truly want to be.... don't you? Should I just sleep there cause I made a vow, or cause I should just "do it" ....don't ya see.... I don't WANT too, but I CAN make myself do so, that doesn't feel right...so I just ignore it? How do you get past this? You think this is just fun and games for me? This is MY LIFE... it is serious to me.<P>r.......you don't want to work at relationships? Then DON'T YOU DARE EVER marry again. There is no woman out there who deserves the consequences of making a committment to a man who does not think he should have to work at marriage.<P>snl...You are absolutely right. Should I find myself single again for any reason, I absolutely will not marry a project.<P>r...All that "well I guess it just doesn't matter who you marry" and "I guess being happy isn't important" is such a load of woe-is-me self-serving crap and you know it. <P>snl...I don't know it, this is deadly serious to me.<P>r...You're too intelligent, I think anyway, to actually believe contorted oversimplifications you've constructed out of our advice to you...<P>snl...I believe everything I say, I do not play games. However I do play devils advocate sometimes, and that should be mostly clear.<P>r....I think you just don't want to face up to the hard decisions you need to make or the consequences of your actions. You're not doing your wife any favors by "sacrificing" yourself for the sake of "duty". <P>snl....* jumping up and down, pulling hair out* what do you think I am doing!!!!! I am facing stuff, or I would be GONE GONE GONE.... I don't have to do this. And I am doing my wife a huge favor, she asked me try.... I was DONE DONE DONE.... I realize I may be doing myself a favor too, I am not a narcissist...but if she had not asked, we would be divorced now. And it does feel like sacrifice, cause there is no passion, how else do you define sacrifice than doing something you don't want to do?<P>r....Either you want to save your marriage or you don't.<P>snl...I don't even know that, I am just barely hanging on to the part where you even consider trying. I realize that if I never get there it will end, if you know where that switch is in our brain that programs us to just do it plz tell me.<P>r...The same goes for Thinker. If you want to save your marriage, then what are you going to do about it? Don't work on "trying", work on "doing"....if you fail, at least there is some honor and dignity to be salvaged from that. <P>snl...I'd say we are doing that, it is just very hard rusty, such is life.<P>r...Yes, SnL, successful marriage requires one to put aside selfish desires. Guess what...it is through serving that one recieves back what they give 10-fold--you used to teach that in Sunday school, I'll bet, SnL. You won't give, then you won't recieve--that giving is the "work" you are so afraid of.<P>snl...well, I am giving. The A is gone, I participate in counselling, I spend more time with wife, I am pretty good about not LB, I am meeting more of her EN, she is protected (not perfectly). It puzzles me folks seem to think I am doing nothing positive, why is that? What I do here is for me, it is my place to vent (in my own oddball ws way), to try and make sense of what has happened in my life, to find the road I wish to travel in the future.....why is that a problem? <P>r...I know I'm kicking you in the butt, SnL, but if you're on MB, then I'm assuming you really want honest help and advice, and right now I honestly think you need a kick in the butt! <P>snl...ok, I do a little butt kicking myself on occassion, and I get the drift of your message, and I realize it is hard to know what happens here day by day. Probably the deal is my needs (for this board) are a little different. I understand MB, plus we use jennifer, so I am pretty well covered there. Nor do I really have much need for support over what my wife does to me (and she has beat the living daylights out of me last couple days, I left the house for a motel last night got so bad, but decided not to waste the money and came home a few hours later), I LB very little in return, whereas a few months ago I woulda cleaned her clock but good. No, mostly what I need here is help in understanding the things I bring up, that is how I live my life, and those are my issues, ultimately the answers will dictate what I do. Whatever it is I won't second guess myself, I will not look back, so I want to make sure I get it right. Stay or go, I am not looking for a roller coaster....my wife has been talking about moving out, plan b (she is unhappy with my progress I guess), I told her she has to do what she must, that I would prefer her not to, but if she goes, I am done, and I mean it. She has been on a blatant power trip, this weekend, and is not sure she wants to be married to me, fair enuf. This stuff has worked in the past to control me, she does not seem to grasp the rules have changed, I hope she figures it out before it is too late, or is really sure she does not want to be married.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>... Nor do I really have much need for support over what my wife does to me (and she has beat the living daylights out of me last couple days, I left the house for a motel last night got so bad, but decided not to waste the money and came home a few hours later), I LB very little in return, whereas a few months ago I woulda cleaned her clock but good. ...She has been on a blatant power trip, this weekend, and is not sure she wants to be married to me, fair enuf. This stuff has worked in the past to control me, she does not seem to grasp the rules have changed, I hope she figures it out before it is too late, or is really sure she does not want to be married.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, something doesn't "fit" here.....to use your words, S_N_L. First you tell us your W was a "project" you took on, knowing it wasn't going to be a M in the correct sense of the word (no passion). Maybe you didn't truly love her when you M. In that case, I have NO idea why you M. That being said, If you felt that way I have NO IDEA WHY you stayed M for 23 years!<P>Now you want us to believe that your W "beats you up" with your infidelity virtually everyday. "Guilting" you into staying? I don't know. It's how I read it. Am I wrong? She sounds "verbally abusive" - apologies to you and Thinker if I'm wrong here, just trying to understand the dynamics going on here.<P>IF I'm right, then WHAT PART Of her was your "project"? WHY did you M her? I was under the impression that you felt she couldn't "cope" with life without a helper....she was emotionally needy and weak, and you were going to be her protector. Is this wrong or right?<P>See, what I'm trying to read between the lines is if she is really "weak and needy" or not....cause if she IS, then NO WAY is she telling you every day that you are scum....NO WAY she would threaten you everyday that she's getting d. and kicking you out....you say these things went on for years.<P>Something's missing from what we are seeing. I see you telling us opposing things about your W, and it's too confusing to help me figure out exactly WHAT your "marriage dance" is. I was thinking about you last night, your M, and I still can't put my finger on what is wrong. <P>I know this: YYOU TWO WILL *NOT* STOP THE M. DANCE YOU WERE ON, AND LEARN A NEW ONE......AND UNTIL YOU DO, YOU ARE DOOMED TO CONTINUE IN THE MISERY YOU CREATE FOR EACH OTHER.<P>My .02<BR>Lupo

lupo..., something doesn't "fit" here.....to use your words, S_N_L. First you tell us your W was a "project" you took on, knowing it wasn't going to be a M in the correct sense of the word (no passion). <P>sml...I didn't know this initially, I just had a lot of foreboding, I was young, I had dated very little, she was the first woman I slept with (which I felt married us). When we didn't marry initially (she said yes, but then could not leave her parents), we had had 4 more rocky years of dating, broke up twice, I didn't know how to stop, to leave her, she wouldn't let me go emotionally, she kept pursuing me, threatening to kill herself, couldn't live without me, promising to change etc. etc. I talked myself into denying my feelings (to get away), that it would somehow work, that I should do the honorable thing.....I was so stupid.<P>lupo....Maybe you didn't truly love her when you M. In that case, I have NO idea why you M. That being said, If you felt that way I have NO IDEA WHY you stayed M for 23 years!<P>snl...Duty, vows, committment, children.<P>lupo...Now you want us to believe that your W "beats you up" with your infidelity virtually everyday. <P>snl...Not everyday, actually was sorta peaceful last couple weeks. She has been treating me nicer (emotionally) than she has in our entire married life....why now? But it doesn't last, the facade cracks and the same old behaviour comes back, only worse, you do not want this woman angry at you. And is not about infidelity, that is just a new tool in the arsenal, it is about showing you how utterly useless you are as human being.<P>lupo...."Guilting" you into staying? I don't know. It's how I read it. Am I wrong? She sounds "verbally abusive" - apologies to you and Thinker if I'm wrong here, just trying to understand the dynamics going on here.<P>snl....More like emotionally abusive (which of course is verbal, but she is not a name-caller, or screamer per se), but then again I think this is more a gender thing, is silly for a small woman to verbally intimidate a large man... but tear em down emotionally, now there is fertile ground.<P>lupo....IF I'm right, then WHAT PART Of her was your "project"? <P>snl...I thought (desperately) if I could hang on long enough, love her hard enough, she would love me, we would find the passion. It wasn't happening dating, and we weren't getting any younger, so I said we can't do this anymore (have a depressing dating relationship waiting for who knows what), we either get married or forget it. I was hoping she would end it, but she didn't, and I kept the promise I made so long ago, I put on my game face and married her. Yes I did her a terrible diservice too, and am every bit as responsible for the wrong way we got married, and that is why I am trying as best I can, to once again keep the promise. That stupid, unyeilding, ridiculous, promise that I have been indoctrinated thoroughly with too.<P>Lupo....WHY did you M her? I was under the impression that you felt she couldn't "cope" with life without a helper....she was emotionally needy and weak, and you were going to be her protector. Is this wrong or right?<P>snl...It is pretty much the emotional/psychological reality of our relationship. She was hopelessly emeshed in a family dynamic that involved an inappropriate emotional triangle of her, her father, and her mother, and her mother wanted her OUT, as well as serious self-esteem issues from a mother who could find nothing right about her daughter. She made it clear I would always come 2nd, not exactly cleaveing. To my credit, I figured this out, and tried to end stuff (after numerous attempts to bond, and promises by her to change), but I am emotionally a powerful rescuer, and it is to that she appealed.<P>lupo....See, what I'm trying to read between the lines is if she is really "weak and needy" or not....cause if she IS, then NO WAY is she telling you every day that you are scum....NO WAY she would threaten you everyday that she's getting d. and kicking you out....you say these things went on for years.<P>snl...Now you know. Like most controllers, she is weak and scared and tries to make life fit her picture of what is needed to feel safe. Emotionally she closed down long before I came along, and will risk very little in being vulnerable. But she can be very strong and determined in action, and anger makes her feel powerful, safe, and she applies it with a vengeance when she feels threatened. The trouble is over the years whenever she would start getting closer to me (vulnerable) she would fabricate a crisis and get angry, use to confuse me, make me mad, make me sad, I sorta understood, but sorta didn't...she was so unfair, finally I just gave up, and tried to exist, stay out of her way, and not ask anything emotional of her. I moved out of her bedroom 5 years ago, she never said a word. I tried to move back, knowing this was really the end, she told me no thanks the dog had my side of the bed. This is the woman who now wants me to trust her, forget the past, just move forward into a glorious happy future.....but yet when I understandably am having some difficulties with this new her, I still get periodically beat up, interestingly after she has been vulnerable awhile, I see no real difference in her pattern behaviour.<P>lupo...Something's missing from what we are seeing. I see you telling us opposing things about your W, and it's too confusing to help me figure out exactly WHAT your "marriage dance" is. I was thinking about you last night, your M, and I still can't put my finger on what is wrong.<P>snl...Does this help? I really don't like doing this, it sounds like I am blaming her, I have to dance too, and I stareted the dance, it really is all my fault, I am the one who knew better. And if she reads this she will go nuts, but oh well, I don't really care anymore. The reason I got beat-up this weekend is cause I didn't respond correctly to her need for reassurance about her father. I tried, and did ok at first, but faltered, she is extremely vulnerable right now. I could see the smoke rising over the volcanoe, but was powerless to stop it (and maybe I didn't want to stop it, that is the toxic dance I am trying to quit), finally she exploded with all the righteousness of having something she can really nail me for, the pathetic useless H who doesn't even know how to comfort a wife with a sick father, and of course she has the perfect excuse for this abuse, she is under stress, and even has the full support of all of you....Lupo you have to understand my wife is very very good at this. You all know how analytical I am, and that I can hold my end up pretty good in an argument..... I am powerless with her, she has an answer for everything, a justification for every nuance of her behaviour, I hardly argue/discuss anymore at all, I either just agree, or silently take my lumps. Usually after awhile she will stop, sometimes act nice, like it never happened. She has no idea the damage she has done to me and the kids (who also get this treatment, after they got old enough to challenge her, and not respond as she thought they should). I could go on with the analysis but it serves no purpose. She will even admit to most of it, counsellors have diagniosed it, pastors have commented on it, jennifer has chastised her regularly, none of it makes any difference. She says yes, she understands, she will change, and she does for a few days, more than I thought she was capable of to be honest..... and she is sorta attractive when she lets herself be vulnerable, but it doesn't last long, and is such a strain for her. The counsellor said is unlikely she will ever change, most can't, or won't, makes no difference it is a life choice, nothing I can do about it. I have come to wonder if it is my fault, if I cause it, the counsellor says no, but I wonder...... she is fine as long as I behave like she thinks I should, and she doesn't ask too much that is unreasonable. I just have to be someone who I am not, and if I will do that, we would have a great marriage by expernal standards. Maybe I am just too stubborn, that is what she says the trouble is. Maybe she is right.<P>lupo...I know this: YYOU TWO WILL *NOT* STOP THE M. DANCE YOU WERE ON, AND LEARN A NEW ONE......AND UNTIL YOU DO, YOU ARE DOOMED TO CONTINUE IN THE MISERY YOU CREATE FOR EACH OTHER.<P>snl...yep, and IMO the foreordained outcome of folks who do not fit.<P>