K,<P>I don't know if this will help you make your point or not, but I think of "an attractive spouse" as an emotional need as very similar to "financial support" as an emotional need. Financial support is extremely important to me. I don't mind working outside the home, but I prefer to work only because I want to, not because I have to. So, I married a man who, at the time, made enough income that I could be a stay-at-home mom if and whenever I wanted. I don't think this makes me shallow, or a gold-digger. For me, financial support just makes me feel better. I hate having to worry about money and finances. I guess I should be ashamed to admit, but I've never even done my own taxes! I like to be able to devote my time to my family and my home, not an outside job or career. I just never have had a desire to be out in the rat-race working force. <P>Well, after a few years of marriage, my H changed jobs, and his income suddenly dropped considerably. Now, I had to work, and I hated it. I now realize that much of my growing resentment through the years was caused by this. I felt resentful that my H didn't make enough money for me to stay at home, or that we didn't have enough money for this, or that, or that we had to rob peter to pay paul. And, I see now that I really blamed my H for not providing the financial support and security I'd expected when we married. I felt like he wasn't holding up his end of the bargain, that he was slacking, and that he let me down.<P>So, I think some men probably feel the same way when it comes to having an attractive spouse. If they married an attractive woman, and that woman starts to let herself go, then I can understand some resentment. I don't think this has anything to do with the natural aging process. It's a given that we are going to age. So, when we're 50, of course we're not going to look like we did when we were 20 (unless you are Goldie Hawn!) But, you can look like the BEST 50 for YOU. I think any man or woman will appreciate a spouse who does the best he or she can be. Men are you listening??? Spare tires belong in the trunk! <P>I also think that things caused by illness is an exception to the rule. For instance, if my H had suffered a debilitating illness or became disabled and could no longer work, I wouldn't have looked at it the same as I did when he chose a new career. I would know that things were out of his control, and I would love him "for better or worse," "in sickness and in health." But again, I think it is our duty to keep things "better" if we can. If it's in our power to keep "the worse" at bay, then I think we all should. That is, if we want our spouses to remain in love with us.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Your explanation, NW - is probably less extreme, however I feel that if the spouses need for sex and/or attractiveness, and/or financial security etc. is very extreme - and that spouse communicates that to the spouse, then it is definitely something the other spouse needs to be careful not to make disrespectful judgements about, but rather address it honestly and gently with a POJA.<P>If one spouse had a need for affection that included lavish Christmas gifts - which to me could be on the level of extreme - and the other spouse "poo poo'd" that idea - then that is where you can really get yourself into trouble. It should be approached with POJA - and not disrespectfully.<P>If my husband had a need for me to have blue eyes instead of brown, and I laughed - that would be a LB. It is the interaction and the effort put toward resolution that matters, no matter how extreme or pointless.<P>Your deepest fantasies and needs should be able to be shared with your spouse without a disrespectful judgement (LB). Or, you are not acting loving or safe - and you can expect resentment and conflict to follow.<P>

JW,<BR>For me, when I see my W, I still see the beautiful person that I married nearly 14 years ago. Yet, it is a pride thing for a man to have a very attractive wife. Though I am strange when it comes to this. My exgirlfriend, the only other person I have slept with, was not the most stunning young lady. I loved her for more than just her looks even though she had very beautiful skinny legs. I thought her legs were very sexy. I loved her for being funny and witty and a whole lot of other things. She dumped me. It took me 2.5 years to heal after that.<P>I love my W for the same reasons I loved my exgirlfirend. She is funny, witty, creative, different than me. She brings out other aspects in me that I knew I needed to work on. She looks much better than my exgirlfriend but looks was not the deciding factor. It was her whole person, warts and all (she doesn't really have warts.) I only wish she would love me including my warts (figure of speech again.)<BR><P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

When I first met my Wife, she wasn’t anything special. We became friends, started dating an got married. Right now, if I had my choice between her, Jennifer Aniston, Christie Brinkley or ANYONE else, I would choose her without a second thought! As they say, “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.” Many women which I would not consider attractive are godly in the eyes of their spouse for the same reason. My Wife was up to 165 lbs, 5’2”, at one time but I never saw her as overweight. She was what I imagined true beauty to be.

Bottom line: no matter how much your husband loves you or how successful he is in his career and family, people in society will suddenly view him as a failure when they see his wife is suddenly very overweight.<P>Sooner or later, the scales tip enough (no pun intended), and this negative social reaction will start to make withdrawals from his Love Bank.<P>Again, no matter how much your husband loves you, he will start feeling the same way you would if he went to an important business dinner where you won't and started bragging ridiculously to your Vice President, using bad grammar, obviously lying through his teeth. Your VP would still think you were a good employee, you might cringe and forgive your husband, but the bad vibes would not help your relationship.<P>I hope this is motivation to help make yourself as attractive as possible, it does make a woman feel better about herself and it is certainly good for your health. Diet and exercise, now you have even more incentive.<BR>

Typo in that last post.<P>"important business dinner where you WORK"<BR>

Good morning all - <P>It's a bit early and I couldn't sleep anymore so I thought I'd check out who's on.<P>I might get flamed for this but I thought I'd add my $0.02 to the stack. I think we can all agree that IN GENERAL, men are much more visual than women. It probably has to do with biology and all this natural selection stuff than anything else. We also all know that men IN GENERAL get turned on MUCH more easily visually than women.<P>Our society has placed a high value on thin, tall, shapely, large breasted young women. Someone pointed out in an earlier post that in other cultures, these features are not as highly "prized" as are others. So it may not all be biological, but societal.<P>I do no in my case that I am attracted to tall, thin, attractive blondes. How do I know? My last four girlfriends before I met my W (including my wife) fit this description. Does that make me shallow? In some people's eyes I suppose it could, but I know that physical attractiveness is very important for me. I agree with other posters, however, that this should not be interpreted any more harshly than someone who has a need for financial security...it's just who we are.

If I can throw in my 2 cents worth, motivation expert Tony Robbins was asked about millenial New Year's resolutions and why we fail at them so often, like a diet.<P>He said basically...<BR>Person A goes on a diet and manages to stick with it during the tempting times because they continue to painfully think "I really look bad, I must stay with this diet".<P>Person B goes on the same diet, encounters the same temptations and says, "you know, I don't really look THAT bad" and eats a bag of cheetoes and stays fat forever.<P>So if my language seems a little harsh, that's the whole point. You can't have victory until you raise your standards to the point to where you will not accept your obesity. Good luck to everyone and keep trying hard.<P>

One question to you gentlemen:<P>If diets worked, would there be fat people? Could Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig make money if diets worked?<P>Why would anyone CHOOSE to be fat? Why would anyone want to have everyone think you are lazy and stupid? Why would women CHOOSE to look a way that says, "YOU ARE NOT DESIRABLE"? Why would anyone CHOOSE a look that makes people think they can go up to you, a total stranger, and say, "You really shouldn't be eating that, dear."<P>If physical beauty is high on your list of needs, so be it. I'm not going to argue.<P>But don't tell me that "All you have to do is diet and exercise." It's not that simple. Most people who struggle with weight have been on diets. Even if you change the way you eat forever, as soon as you go off the diet, you WILL gain weight. The main reason most people (esp. women) have a hard time losing weight is not because we're lazy, and not because we sit down and eat fudge by the pound and twinkies by the box, but because we've been dieting on and off since we were children, to try and satisfy some "standard". Our body chemistry is totally out of whack, and so our bodies react to yet another diet with "Uh-oh, she's doing it again. Better store some fat."<P>Exercise does make the difference. I've lost weight, and am continuing to do so, by cutting down only slightly on what I eat and my stepping up my activity level. Doesn't mean I'm working out at a gym for two hours a day. Again, fat people aren't lazy. But I will tell you that in my experience, the gym staffers I've encountered will not help someone who doesn't already look good in spandex. This is why walking is wonderful. I can do it in my street clothes and don't have to worry about some skinny minny who never had to worry about her weight looking down her skinny-assed nose at me.<P>My point is not that you shouldn't want a woman who looks like a model if that's important to you. But it's a facile oversimplification to say that anyone can be thin if we just put the effort into it. That may be true, but how many men want to give up their back rubs and their cooked dinners and their clean houses so that their wives can go to the gym every night, or jogging 20 miles, to meet that standard?

One thing I have noticed in life in the last few years is that people become more or less beautiful after we get to know them. I meet once a month with a group 14 women in an investment club. A few of the women that i thought were very attractive(I'm a woman so I am judging from my standards which I got from society) became actually quite ugly to me as I got to know their unattractive personalities. Another woman, who at first glance is not terribly attractive, has become beautiful in my eyes. She is just such a nice person, and other people who know her agree. Now I only see her smiling, friendly face. <P> I always thought my mother was the most beautiful woman in the world, I thought she looked just like Elizabeth Taylor. My husband said that as a boy he thought his mother was very beautiful. Believe me, she is not. When I first met her I thought she was very unattractive. I guess what I am saying is that there is more to beauty than the outward appearance.

Ok...I'll probably get flamed for this but it's been stewing around in my head for a few days.<P>Some people say they want an attractive spouse because then other people look at them in a positive way. I think this is one of the main reasons I have had an eating disorder since I was 5 years old. My parents didn't want a fat child because it would make them look like bad parents. Boys didn't want to go out with me because they didn't want to be laughed at for having a fat girlfriend. My husband had an affair partly because he wanted to know what it would be like to be with a thin woman. <P>So how come everybody else is basing a part of their self esteem on what I look like? I have had to give the finger to the world a lot of times because I am fat. The world doesn't know that I work out 6x a week and eat a 1200 calorie diet. They just see a fat woman and condemn me for it. My self esteem has to come from who I am...the values I live by. Otherwise, by many people in this world, I shouldn't be allowed to walk out my front door. <P>I am NOT saying that we all shouldn't make the most of what we have. I wear make up and perfume because I like it.<P>What I am trying to say through all of this is why do people feel the need to make themselves feel better through what their spouse looks like? If you are secure in yourself shouldn't what the world says not matter? Beauty (as the world sees it) fades...what is inside is for always.<P>Just adding some fuel to the fire <P>Jodi<P>

Okay, first-- thank you for replying.<BR>Second-- I think I should clear up something, I’m not married. I am on this web site because I want to find ways to have a stronger marriage than my parents had (my dad cheated). I do worry about getting married and I was reading the posts to see if their was any way I could avoid either a. becoming involved with a man that might cheat or b. finding out how to build a strong marriage so that neither one of us commits adultery. I never actually meant to post anything but that beauty thing really started worrying me. And really, I don't feel any better now.<BR>Third-- I am not currently worried about the way I look; I'm young (24) 5'9" and weigh 130lbs. I'm nothing supermodelish but in a room full of normal looking women I could probably give most of them a run for their money. (I'm not sure if that sounds conceited or not, I'm really not sure where the fine line of 'conceited' and 'feels good about herself' goes) However, I don't expect to always look this way and this, of course, is what's worrying me.<BR>To all of the women who responded, thank you again. Your posts did help me feel better about this question. It's really the men's responses I'm worried about, actually only some of the men I suppose.<BR>To dj, rutger, professorg, and chris(ca123), thank you for saying that you love your wife more for the way she is and the way she makes you feel and less for her looks. Maybe I won't write off for that information on catholic nunneries yet.<BR>To frankie, cuckold, shattered1, and k, well, thank you for responding anyway. The answers you gave though were the ones that make me think marriage might really not be worth it after all. (I didn't mean for that to be an insult). But being worried that the world is going to think you're a failure because your wife is overweight, even if it's not her fault? If your wife was this way and you did feel that way how could that not make her feel like crap?<BR>Could I ask how you men (in general) would feel if things were reversed? I mean truly think about being judged simply on the way you look. They say women aren't visually oriented, I say this is a bunch of hooey. Maybe the men just aren't taking enough care of themselves. Beer bellies aren't attractive either, neither are balding men for that matter (trustntruth, your post cracked me up). But you get a bunch of young guys together with their six pack abs and the good arms and big hands (I really love hands)... Well anyway, I got off on a tangent. My point was that maybe your wives care more about the way you look than you think. How does that make you feel?<P>Sorry again for posting without even being married, I really didn't even mean to post once and now I've done it again. If I offended anyone you're probably going to say that I just don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't been in any of these situations, but I'm not sure if that is true, about every other topic on this board I would say this was absolutely true. But about this, I don't know. I DO know that I understand how it feels to have people base how they feel about you based on how I look.<BR>I apologize for the length of this post.<BR>

The central issue is, no cops outs now, is the individual in their unique situation responsible for the way they have let themselves go? If not, then it's not an issue. If so, then it is and we reap what we sow if we don't at least try to fix what we caused.<BR>

YIKES-my H is basically bald (he's 37) and i find him totally handsome. why do people always make remarks about bald? As if .............he can help it. I can't imagine him with hair-i am serious. He has great eyes and eye lashes!!!!!<P>I think beauty is on the inside of all of us-those who are looking at the outside only don't deserve anything mor thatn what they see!!<P>*heartache*

I have to say I haven't read anyone elses reply on this but then again their thoughts shouldn't change what I think so this is my views on your question.<P>There are many different types of people in the world... some ARE shallow, some are vein or narcisistic and some look deeper. I guess the first thing you have to look at it what kind of person you are talking about.<P>The next thought you might not like... I dont think many will but to me its quite evident though very taboo to actually say. People who ARE beautiful place more value in beauty... those who are not don't. Have you noticed that people who are not so good looking are the ones who say "Beauty doesn't matter"?<P>Perhaps its because it would be very hypocritical for an ugly man to say he only wants to be with pretty women because if they thought as he did he would be very lonely.<P>Now I would have to put myself in the boat that likes pretty women. I hope you do not take this the wrong way... because it is not meant to offend but I could not see myself with someone who was not physically attractive. Having said that I have been with people who are extremely beautiful but had so little inside them I didn't stick around either.<P>So to answer your questions (at last) there is something which when in great abundance can make "beauty" pale by comparison to most men....<P>Attitude.<P>Yep, the WILL to try something, a sense of adventure, the lights are on, no hangups, no making someone feel bad for asking things open-mindedness, discovery, happy go lucky attitude.... All of this can be wrapped up into something that is hard to put your finger on but the bottom line is a person with these traits doesn't HAVE to be beautiful to attact someones attention because it seems to shine through.<P>So I would be less worried about that extra 5 pounds or that disfiguring accident and more worried about coming across prudish or enclosed or closed-minded.... those are far more likely to make someone look elsewhere in my honest opinion.

JustWondering:<P>Your post makes me believe that you don't "get it". I'd suggest that you spend some time reading this site and the question and answer columns.<P>IMO, you seem to be in the "love should be unconditional" camp. Experience shows us that love is not usually unconditional---it's conditional. And you do need to be concerned about successfully meeting the "conditions" for love to last.<P>This shouldn't make you worry about marriage---if you learn this, and learn the skills involved in meeting "conditions" (Harley's Rules of Protection, Care, Honesty and Time)---you will be in much better shape when you're ready to marry than most of your contemporaries (and most of us at that time of our life, too). You need to realize that marriage is work too---it's fun work, if you have the skills, but there's effort involved.<P>If you are going to marry a man who prizes an attractive wife above all else (his top emotional need), you should be willing to commit to a lifetime of "attractiveness". What's more important, you should discuss this together to see what his thoughts are, and to make sure you're comfortable. And after that---you'll probably find that both your needs will change often during the course of your marriage. And if you have the skills to discuss (Complete Honesty), negotiate solutions (POJA), and carry these solutions (Rule of Care), you'll have a terrific marriage.<P>For the record, attractiveness isn't on my top 5 list. And I think my wife is one of the most beautiful women on the planet---because she's my wife! But again, it's not really important how Chris, SHA, frankie or I feel about women's attractiveness---unless you're engaged to one of us. What's important is how your future husband feels about it. Learn the skills here to find out, and discuss it, and you'll be in good shape.

Hi, Jodi! Boy, we just don't go away, do we? <P>Regarding the "attractiveness" issue. In last week's Newsweek, there's an article from Susan Faludi's new book about how current society is shafting men. Her last book, "Backlash", dealing with the same things regarding women, was quite interesting. Whether she's qualified to speak to men remains to be seen, but she DOES address the current "male bimbo" thing going on...that masculinity is being re-defined in terms of a certain standard of physical attractiveness, and that standard is being set by the teen dreamboats on WB shows -- youthful, six-pack abs, full head of hair, etc. She posits that men today are in many ways like women were in the 1950's. Interesting stuff.<P>K, you're right...that if you're a woman dating a man for whom physical attractiveness is the paramount need, and you don't conform to that standard (too short, too heavy, heavy legs, small breasts, big nose, on and on and on), this guy is probably not a good bet. I once dated a guy who was a "good catch". He had his own jewelry store (!), condo on the beach, BMW automobile, snappy dresser, spent money on dates, the whole 9 yards. He was fun to be with, great in bed -- and balding prematurely at 30. I didn't mind the balding, or that he was short. What I did mind was "If you could lose enough weight to look good in tight jeans, I'd marry you in a minute." Clearly I was wasting my time with this guy, because I knew there was no way I'd ever meet that standard.<P>To Lost Soul: Yeah, you're right about "attitude." Dead on right. But it's awfully hard to have "attitude" when society treats you as if you're less than human because you're overweight. Few people have that kind of inner resources to be able to pull it off. Now, I know I talk as if I'm 300 pounds overweight. I'm not. I'm about 40 pounds overweight for ME -- not for the actuarial charts, but for ME. I'm short, but I can carry some extra weight, though not as much as I'm carrying. But still...I don't meet that standard.<P>As far as the idea that "people who are beautiful prefer people who are beautiful", well, it doesn't always work that way. Historically, female power has been in youth and beauty, and male power has been in money. Hence, ugly rich men with beautiful women. It hasn't changed all that much.<P>My H is a very handsome man. He's tall, good chin, nice nose, great eyelashes. Thank goodness he has no idea of how handsome he is, or else he'd be insufferable. He's told me repeatedly that he doesn't think of himself as particularly good looking, and I believe it. He worries about his thinning hair and sagging skin too. And I know men who I think are really unattractive, and they think they're God's gift to women.<P>So...there's really no hard and fast rules about this.

Hey D&C<P>hehehehe..nope...doesn't look like we are going anywhere...particularly on this issue. <BR>I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the whole beauty = thin thing is like fighting a losing battle. As many people have pointed out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There will always be people who think I am unattractive because I am fat. However...my H told me yesterday that he thinks I am beautiful and he loves who I am and that was why he married me. He also said that his affair showed him that where he really wanted to be is with me because that grass that looked so green turned out to be ragweed <P>So...for all the people out there that insist on a beautiful (by Madison Avenue's standards) person at their side..well..IMHO you are missing out on a lot of great people. <P>I think I'm gonna bow out of this discussion tho...I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. Anyway I'm in a much better mood today and this is a pretty negative subject for me to dwell on. <P>Jodi

I just gotta reply to this... <P>Both my W and I have gained weight since our marriage day. Not stating how much in her case...but it has happened. However, she is still in shape and quite beautiful!! I personally do not find the skinny as a rail look appealing in the slightest.<P>In my case...on our wedding day I weighed 145 lbs. Today I am at 260...with a top weight of 310 almost 2 years ago. I don't drink, so most of it is my W's fault due to good cooking <P>Our sex life hasn't suffered due to any weight gain. People you need to realize that you have to be happy with yourself...M or F...and not fall into the trap of changine yourself to please others.

I don't know what some of the other men here are saying, but I think I understand what K is saying, and that is, it doesn't really matter what society feels about beauty or attractiveness, what matters is what our spouse, mate or potential spouse feels. I don't think anyone is naive enough to dispute that our (U.S.) society has inflicted some very unrealistic and unhealthy standards of beauty onto all of us. That's a given, I think. But, the problems arise when we are not comfortable with what our spouses view as attractive.<P>D&C, does your H view you as unattractive because of the extra weight you are carrying? If so, then, I understand your dilemma. But, if he doesn't, I wouldn't worry about what society favors. We are never going to be able to change what the media perpetuates. Madison Avenue dictates that, always has. That's why it's important to find a mate who can view you as beautiful, regardless of whether you fit Madison Ave. standards.<P>Both my H and I were extremely physically attractive to each other when we met. And, fortunately for both of us, neither of us has really changed all that much in that department. My H is a very handsome man, and I'm told that all the time. But, for many years, when a woman would comment on how "good looking" my H was, I couldn't even feel proud. Instead, I felt disgusted. Ya know why? Because he treated me like crap! So, I didn't give a rat's patootie how great he looked. In my [censored], I had a great looking A-hole on my hands, whoopeel! If he had let himself go during our marriage, allowing himself to balloon up to 400lbs, lost every strand of hair on his head, AND lost all of his teeth, it wouldn't have mattered to me as long as he treated me like I was gold, his queen, the most desirable woman on the planet. That's what I needed from him. Good looks could only get him or anyone else so far. On the other hand, if he had gained a lot of weight and let himself go, and treated me like crap, oh, you better believe the weight gain would have become an issue. And, I think that's what often happens. It's not so much as the weight gain, in many instances, as it is the weight gain coupled with all the other unfulfilled needs. It makes for a landslide. <P>And, I suspect it's the same for most men. Even the men who say that an attractive spouse is one of their primary needs, I'd be willing to bet big $ that those men would still worship their 400lb wife if she treated them like a king by showering them with love and attention, affection, and SEX! I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet. But, if he perceives that his wife neglects him, mistreats him, isn't fulfilling his needs, plus she's put on a few pounds, then whammo, he'll focus on that weight gain as if that's the main problem, when it really isn't.<P>So, no matter how hard we try, and as JodiC said, how much we bang our heads against the wall, we're not going to change society's standards. Unfortunately, we're at their mercy. But, we can work with what we have, ensuring that it falls in line with what our spouses want and desire. I want to be the object of my H's desire, not just because he's my husband, but because he looks at me and see's one hot babe! <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.