I'm just wondering, not intending to offend you, but I'm really wondering.<P>You insist you married the "wrong" person.<P>You insist your wife is not capable of meeting your needs.<P>You say you were never "in love" with W in the first place, so there is no love to regain.<P>You say there is no "fit" with wife and insist that because of that, it is not possible to be "in-love".<P>You nor your wife (haven't heard from her on this) are not willing to follow God's plan for sacrificial marriage (which, by the way, could turn your marriage around if BOTH you and your wife would just stop hurting each other long enough)even though you profess yourself to be a Christian man. In essence you are refusing to use the most POWERFUL resource for healing your marriage that you have at your disposal.<P>You insist on holding onto the "in love" feelings for OW.<P>I will say that you have provided, at times, some very good insights for the BS here. I think that is an important contribution. But since you are so incalcitrant in your position concerning the poor prognosis for your own martriage, it is my opinion that you are doing a disservice to other WS who come here and might gain tremendous benefit from listening to RECOVERED WS. I think your often negative input of cancels out the positive from the truly recovereds, especially in the minds and hearts of those who are not so sure about their own marriages. You see, by continuing to proceed in your own circular thinking, out loud, here on MBers, you reel in other WS, into the same non constructive loop that you have carved out for yourself. I personally, do not see it as marriage building and would hate to see someone who has come here in the hopes of recovering their marriage be drawn into a non contructive loop which may ultimately lead them away from rebuilding something so important as a marriage and maintaining something so important as a family. With all due respect, JMHO.<P>

mttrrhbard - you say it so much better than me. Yes-what mttrrbard said. I would like to here snl's response too.

Yep...Yep...Yep...<P>I know I offended at least Snobird when I said that I thought it 'dangerous' for them to post to each other...they reinforce each other's fog almost as renewed contact with OP does.<BR>IMHO!<BR>Cali

Is a fair question, no offense taken, re the first part about my statements, those are not absolutes, they are discussion positions, I don't actually know exactly how I feel (much the same as many others here), as a ws I express that differently than a bs would. But is the same confusion, doubt, fear and such, and I express it in terms that mean important things to me.<P>mtr....But since you are so incalcitrant in your position concerning the poor prognosis for your own martriage, it is my opinion that you are doing a disservice to other WS who come here and might gain tremendous benefit from listening to RECOVERED WS. <P>snl...I am aware of that, and worry about it sometimes. Although I too am trying to reconcille my marriage, perhaps I have failed some test of motivational level, and it would be best if I left....is that what you think best? Maybe this place cannot work for everyones needs, I just feel uncomfortable going to a ws support board. <P>One thing does bother me a bit though about the process, there is something disturbing (in the brainwashing sense) about subjecting the ws to only recovery outcomes, that abandons the needs of ws who should not recover, and should leave the marriage. MB is really a misnomer of sorts, reconcilliation should be about the mental health of people, not the preservation of a specific marriage at any cost. There needs to be a means to recognize when a marriage should end, that it is not a terrible thing, and that people do move on to healthy happy lives building marriages with other people if they wish, sadder but wiser in mate selection, and that it is ok. And in fact that support is present here, but only for bs's whose marriages end. WS are universally condemned, and left to struggle on their own, but they are real people too, the same as everyone else. So maybe my thoughts and agonizing bridges both worlds, similarly folks like lexxy, sno, and a few others. <P>The assumption also seems to be a bs here is automatically a worthy marital partner, when maybe they are not, and their spouse needed to leave them for their own emotional well-being. By having all points of view present, and all circumstances present, the board truly reflects the realities of life, and maybe anyone can come and find the truth for them. As well as a better understanding of others.<P>mtr....I think your often negative input of cancels out the positive from the truly recovereds, especially in the minds and hearts of those who are not so sure about their own marriages. <P>snl...As I suggested above, maybe that is a good thing, maybe it negates the brainwashing component of assuming every marriage can and should be saved. On the other hand, maybe that brainwashing component is deemed desireable by the bs majority here, and it is what they want for ws. But what about weak ws who are in marriages they should leave, but just can't find the support, and feel hopeless and get pulled back into a marriage by a strong bs, or social peer pressure? How does that help them? When maybe with more wide ranging views they would have found what they need to leave the marriage. It really really troubles me that folks say, sure marriage is not an absolute, but when one starts talking about not being married to someone, it sure sounds like it is an absolute to most (in other words, there is no acceptable reason to leave a marriage, unless someone is beating the crap out of you or equivalent...not happy? just suck up and give your life to someone else, no one promised happy, that is really really sad, a life is a pretty precious thing, and a lifetime yoked where you do not want to be is a heck of a price to pay for a mistake).<P> <BR>Ultimately it comes down to this, are people responsible enough to form their own opinions that work for them and should have all viewpoints available, or must we protect them from points of view we are uncomfortable with? Forever leaveing in doubt why they chose to stay married, when maybe they might not have. Most here want to know the ws chose them above all else, not settled for em out of apathy or some such. <P>mtr...You see, by continuing to proceed in your own circular thinking, out loud, here on MBers, you reel in other WS, into the same non constructive loop that you have carved out for yourself. <P>snl...I would demur, I do not think it circular. I think we do drill down to some very different fundamentals, no matter where we start from, (much like you will in considerations of many issues...religion, political therory, porn/sexuality, childraising, abortion, and so forth. But the process is illuminating, as long as it is kept rational, and civil, IMO. Decideing exactly how one feels about something as important as love and marriage is of vital importance to ones mental health. I (and those who feel as I do) cannot go forward very well without some underlying truths. My reality is I love one woman, in ways I have never felt before, but I am married to another and bound by committments and history that are very real. <P>It would be easy if ones spouse were demonstrably evil, addictive, or such.....but much harder when they are not, so I seek the principles which govern this part of being human, so I can apply those principles to my marriage...first to see if it really is a marriage at all, and secondly if it is, how should it be, and what if it never is that way, and how can I tell. These are very hard questions. I will not live my life (actually give my life) to another just cause one school of thought says I should, and that a peice of paper governs all... I chose to be married to someone, and I can choose not to be, and choose another, that is a fundamental condition of being human. What interests me is how this happens, I too thought once it was just sort of something you do, decide..... I am pretty sure now that is not true. If it were, I would just decide not to love the ow, would negotiate EN with w (or leave her if she refused to negotiate) and live happily ever after....this is not hard...MB principles are absurdly easy to understand and implement.....but they don't quite seem to be the answer....why? <P><BR>I have been searching for that answer, I am pretty sure it is cause our feelings do count, and are an essential indicator in how we fit another human being, that means fit does count, and must somehow be assessed in making a marital decision (be it to entre one, stay in one, or leave one). I frankly can see no benefit to anyone (either spouse, family, or community) in maintaining a marriage that is not emotionally healthy for both people. And I think it does a terrible diservice to ws, to suggest they wandered cause they are defective people, rather we should include they wandered cause the marriage should not be, and try to figure that out too. Life is just not that simple, marry whoever is in front of you and asks....for example my ow married out of sheer apathy, hardly knew the guy, and was in a devastated emotional state from just being betrayed by her expected to be husband, she just wanted to be safe, and he was safe, unfortuneately she fits him not at all, and has lived a emotionally barren 28 years of marriage. She would not marry him if she could do it over, she was not in love when she got married, she knew from the wedding day (and night) she had made a terrible mistake, and she would not stop him if he wanted to leave (it is her hope, and the hope of many people in such marriages, including some who have posted here, cause it sets you free).... this is not unusual, what do you do with it? Saying you must have been in-love so rekindle doesn't work, saying suck it up you made a promise, make the best of it, is exactly what she has done for 28 years, essentially plan a'ing the whole time, it didn't work, it is never going to work, now she is going to just try and get his attention and get something for herself, knowing now how it should be...try at least to make it more tolerable, get some en met, but ya know, real life is not like MB and stories of jon and sue (saa) real life is about lots of different circumstances, and people, and some fit a whole lot better than others, and that is what makes it work, makes love (passion for marriage) different that just getting along in a pleasant way. But that is what vows do, they bind ethical people to a lifetime with someone, when they wish they could start over, but cannot break the programming, until they are too tired, and wore out, and old to try anymore, and they just put in their time till they die, either not really caring, or wondering what is wrong with them... vows don't care whether you fit, they are a means to an end, acquiring a spouse, and as much as one possibly can binding them to you..... myself I prefer no binding, I want to be freely chosen everyday, passionately chosen, not settled for....some of us need that, some of us don't, that is one of the things I have learned here. I had far to simplistic an idea of how these issues worked, I know now it is much more complex than I first surmised, and it starts with our internal programing. The worse thing we have ever done to human beings is evolve the concept of marriage lifetime vows (making marriage a legalistic institution, instead of a psychological institution), we should instead have poured all our energy into teaching people how to select mates based on psychological compatibility, and we should have made marriage much much harder to enter.<P>mtr...I personally, do not see it as marriage building and would hate to see someone who has come here in the hopes of recovering their marriage be drawn into a non contructive loop which may ultimately lead them away from rebuilding something so important as a marriage and maintaining something so important as a family. With all due respect, JMHO.<P>snl...Your opinion is fine, and may very well be right. But let me ask you a question. Wouldn't it be just as bad to see someone pulled into a false recovery, cause they did not have the support to end it, and just spend more unhappy years, maybe a lifetime in a marriage that will never work?<BR>That does happen you know, there are lots of marriages that will always be unhappy, where MB principles will not work, what about those marriages? Are they ok? Should we encourage them? When should we encourage someone to leave a marriage?<P>However, I am aware of the nature and bias of this board, and I have no issue with it. I am a minority, and my focus on the mental health of people, not on the institution, and my belief that many marriages are not at all nurturing and should end (and my desire in figuring how that works and where I fit in re my marriage), is at odds with the general approach here.....which is basically just do it, don't ask too many questions, and wait and see what happens. That is ok, it scares me some, cause if feels like brainwashing, so this is how I cope I guess, by trying to understand what is going on too, so I can maintain my integrity and not be so pressured, I just give up and be married by default, to the one I chose in my inexperience (and she I). I want to be passionate about my w, and she about me, and I am sorta stuck. I must be radically honest and voice my concern this is a serious uphill effort, with little likelihood of success (far as I can see), but I am doing it, making the effort as best I can, but it doesn't help being told I am a loser, and I am not doing it good enuf. I can understand why so many married people say no way, I am not doing this, I will stay married to you, I have made my peace with it, but I am not going to do all than EN stuff, and make myself vulnerable and so forth. So don't ask...blah blah blah, people live their lives like that and it is sooooooooo sad, I don't want to be one, I have been one.....for far too long.<P>mtr, haven't you learned? Don't ask me why questions <P>but I am only a guest here, and I will leave if that is the consensus, no hard feelings, I really appreciate all the patience given me on my lonely path.....(yeah yeah, I know I chose it, I just don't know how to do it any other way, this is just me....for better or worse).<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 24, 2001).]

I know I will regret this - snl - you are the epitomy of trying to justify your actions. You have got to quit overthinking this...someone suggested that Thinker should be feeler and you should be thinker. I feel that there is no way we are going to convince you that although the grass looks greener out there, it probably isn't. You seem determined to be stubborn. Can't you see that maybe, MAYBE, you MIGHT be WRONG????? I am so close to saying GO GO GO...but then, I'm not Thinker. Thinker, think about it. (I know I will regret this but these are my feelings right now.)

I've wanted to ask you this same question many times SNL but thought it wasn't really my place.<P>Now personally I don't mind your being on the board...I read a lot of your posts and enjoy seeing the way your mind works and find myself agreeing with you quite often...because there is thought in your posting. It is wrong to never question whether what we believe is the right thing...and your presenting us with alternative thinking is balancing I think.<P>My thought is...with all the thought you have put into this matter...why can't you just decide one way or the other and do it...you have thought and reasoned and rationalized enough to make my head explode....and still you have not convinced the one person who matters the most...yourself...if you had you would not need to keep convincing us because it would not matter anymore.<P>So you wallow in your theoritical quagmire..unable to move one way or the other...but continuing to struggle...and trying to get someone to hear your struggle and help you out. Well, lots of MB have thrown you lines to help you out but you've thrown them right back...so there you are.<BR>Hey, when you want to really get out...let us know...someone will be here to help.<P>Meanwhile, keep posting...at least your posts make me think, even if I don't always agree.<P>Faye<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>One thing does bother me a bit though about the process, there is something disturbing (in the brainwashing sense) about subjecting the ws to only recovery outcomes, that abandons the needs of ws who should not recover, and should leave the marriage. MB is really a misnomer of sorts, reconcilliation should be about the mental health of people, not the preservation of a specific marriage at any cost. </B><P>SNL,<P>You absolutly know better than this. if your to conduct yourself in a less than honorable way, id suggest you find an appropriate place to do it. this is a place for growth toward marriage, if your interested in doing so then challenge yourself and the ideals that are preventing that growth. <P>it is one thing to challenge an idea or concept in hopes of gaining understanding or comprehension it is quit another to be intentionally disruptive to the "Mental Health" and "Growth" of others. <P>there are board for those uninterested in recovering marriage, if you think someone could benifit from those suggest them. but to personally take up the cause here is flatly obtuse and wrong.<P>we share a tremedous amount in common SNL, yet i am unimpressed with this. choose SNL- fish or cut bait is it not a disgrace to your OW right along with your wife to only half heartedly attempt to be the kind of man worthy of having? <P>i am sorry that i havent had more influence in your tenure here. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

chaz I think you must have misunderstood that quote. Surely you agree that subjecting someone to only one outcome is limiting their ability, not only to choose that outcome (freely), but to not choose it at all. I don't really think anyone is here to blindly restore a marriage at any cost, there is the unwritten expectation that the marriage be worthwhile according to good mental health standards.....heck even the harley's say that. As for your influence, well...... most of you influence me, I bounce around like a ping pong ball, but that is what I need to do, it is how I function, how I resolve complex issues. I am a cautious man, and I immerse myself in data before I do much of anything. Heck, I analyzed myself into marriage, overrode my emotions that were screaming no no no, don't do this......it is just me chaz....the only emotional thing I ever did, just do it, go for it, was to let myself fall in love, knowing (but not really realizing the depths, or details) that it was not the analytical thing to do. Now I am being told that was wrong, but to just go ahead and "do it" ..... is it so hard I am having problems with that approach?<P><BR>As for being disruptive, some feel so, some do not, what do you make of that? I confess to being confused by your efforts chaz, but it interests me in my search for understanding about why people do what they do. IMO you take far too much responsibility for the state of your marriage. I think it would have made much more sense for you to divorce, and first fix yourself, and she herself (if you are that screwed up), then date and remarry your wife, why haven't you done that? I don't believe it is psychologically sound to repair personality disorders while married, nor should such a trauma be visited on an unsuspecting spouse, but I guess if they fully know and understand ones psychological condition and go forward anyways, is a free choice.... did your wife know? I can't help but wonder if the stress your marriage is under while you try to fix things isn't doing more damage than the original problem itself. Not dissing you, just wondering about this stuff. I shudder at some of the crud people bring to marriages and just figure it is ok. It is like marrying someone first, then telling em, oh yeah by the way, I have a debilitating disease, and you are gonna have to spend the rest of your life taking care of me, just like you vowed too....what's that about? The more I look at this, the more sure I become that vows are one of the biggest con jobs ever foisted on human beings.....in most cases we enter marriages totally blind to the psychological realities of the spouse (mostly due to the efforts we all deliberately make to mask our deficiencies), and then just expect everyone to suck it up and make it work....why are any of us responsible for assisting or waiting for someone to straighten themself out, shouldn't they do that BEFORE getting married? Anyways I am just rambling here about another part of this business that bugs me a great deal.

Buffy – “My thought is...with all the thought you have put into this matter...why can't you just decide one way or the other and do it...you have thought and reasoned and rationalized enough to make my head explode....and still you have not convinced the one person who matters the most...yourself...if you had you would not need to keep convincing us because it would not matter anymore.”<P>What she says is true SnL but having been there I know just how difficult it is. We were separated for 2 years before my W insisted that we try to work on our marriage. It wasn’t what I wanted but the hysteria of it all and pressure to do the ‘right’ thing for my kids made me return to her. That was in Jan, the months ahead was extremely unpleasant. At first I constantly rationalize the reasons for staying, I put some effort to being close again and doing the things I was uncomfortable doing in hope to rekindle some feelings for her when at the same time going through withdrawal from OW. It didn’t work. <P>I resorted into accepting that I would be in what you call a ‘sacrificial marriage’ which in my head would be until my kids are in college and old enough to understand the situation. I stop expecting the loving feelings towards my W to return anymore, as long as it was tolerable it was ok. But after a while I couldn’t live like that, it was around May that I started to post and read MB. I needed to know why I had to stay, can I ever love my W and while in my mind I knew the marriage is dead I wanted to see if I can be proven wrong (if that makes any sense). Once again, it didn’t work. <P>I have not tried so hard to rationalize my thoughts of wanting to leave this marriage or that my efforts to rebuild it was good enough. When I was feeling so bad, I feel resentment towards W for making me stay and yeah was insensitive to her feelings by being ‘radically honest’ not with the intention to restore my marriage but simply to let her know really I didn’t want to be there. So perhaps she would just get fed up after a while and accept that things were not going to work. I knew what I was doing was wrong, a friend and some people who I met through here pointed that out too. It wasn’t fair for my W to be strung along like that, to get that sort of treatment from me. She deserved to be loved in the same way that I love the OW too. So I told her exactly how I felt for OW, we never really talked about my feelings & relationship with OW. We were separated even before I met OW. Told her that I wanted out. As expected she reacted badly and yeah I was thrown with all sorts of threats and attacks, blaming me for not ending it in Jan. When things calmed down she told me that she knew that after the years apart the marriage was dead but she just couldn’t let me go even though she’s not sure whether she really loved me. <P>We are still on talking terms and for once in years I actually feel comfortable talking to her. We both decided that we would part and will to keep it admicable. She told me she has never felt comfortable and at peace with herself until now and so do i. She still feel anger but has tried to be reasonable about things. I have moved out to my own place and have recently contacted OW again. You can’t help but feel sad at the way things turn out, I regret not because I ended it but just the way things happened. What is weird is my W has a new male friend she tells me about, I think divorced and helping her through it. I am not upset by the fact that she has a male companion but rather annoyed that after all she made us go through she could easily be close to someone else. I wish her the best though. So there you go SnL, what its like to do the thing you so much have tried to justify in doing. <P>SnL - “Look in your heart (and your head), and if you truly think it is possible for you to be in-love with your spouse (the standard being if he was not your spouse would you still want to try), then tear down all the walls, act like you are in-love (and now you know how that looks) for a reasonable period of time, you will either be in-love, or in extreme pain and if the latter, will have to make the final choice, a contract (assuming your spouse will give you acceptable terms) marriage, or end the marriage.”<P>This was taken from another thread and you are right, it describes my situation exactly. So SnL where are you in that quote? Perhaps you can answer those issues that u have post. I don’t exactly know how you are feeling, are you miserable at the moment? Could you identify to the emotions I have described in my story? Does being in this forum help? Sometimes reading what is written in this forum especially those from certain BS may upset you, though they maybe just venting and looking for support from one another, you might see it in a different way (esp when their actions and words affirms some of ur theories). I don’t know, perhaps you might just want to consider using the MB principles but not participate in the forums if at the end of the day it does not help in ur recovery. If u keep trying to convince others, you will end up believing it even if u start of being uncertain about things. Good luck to you. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>[B]I am aware of that, and worry about it sometimes. Although I too am trying to reconcille my marriage, perhaps I have failed some test of motivational level, and it would be best if I left....is that what you think best?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you asking for our permission? That doesn't seem very much in character with the rest of your posts.<P>It seems that both you and Thinker have failed in the ability to forgive the past and to try to build a new life. None of us can fix the past, but both of you really dwell in it. There is an awful lot of "She *always* does a, b, and c." "He never..."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>One thing does bother me a bit though about the process, there is something disturbing (in the brainwashing sense) about subjecting the ws to only recovery outcomes, that abandons the needs of ws who should not recover, and should leave the marriage. MB is really a misnomer of sorts, reconcilliation should be about the mental health of people, not the preservation of a specific marriage at any cost. There needs to be a means to recognize when a marriage should end, that it is not a terrible thing, and that people do move on to healthy happy lives building marriages with other people if they wish, sadder but wiser in mate selection, and that it is ok. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If people were wiser in their choices of second marriage partners, wouldn't you think that the divorce rate for second marriages would be lower than for first marriages? Yet, second marriages are more likely to end in divorce and second marriages that begin as affairs have an abysmal chance of success.<P>The Harleys do not contend that all marriages can be saved. If you read Dr. Bill Harley's Q and A, he recommends in some of the cases that a couple divorce. Yes, I think that there is a bias on these boards that leans toward saving a marriage at all costs, but I am not sure that was the Harleys' intent. If you go to a marriage counselor and say "I want to save my marriage" that becomes his or her job--to guide and coach you into saving the marriage. If you go to the same counselor and say "We are divorcing. How do we get through this with the minimal damage to each other and to our children?" his response/job would be different.<P>What do <B>you</B> want to do? What behaviors are you willing to change and what behaviors is she willing to change? Our behaviors do not define who we truly are, yet you seem to hang on to yours as if they were a leaky life raft in a gale-driven sea. In fact, our feelings often trail after our thought patterns (cognitive therapy) and our behavior (operant/behavioral psychology). If you act loving, the feelings may follow. If those feelings are the be all and end all to you, and they don't follow after a set period of changed behavior (and behavior here is meant to include what words you choose to speak out loud), you can quit knowing that you have tried. What you don't seem to recognize or be able to change is that what you and your wife are doing <B>right now</B> is <B>NOT, NOT, NOT</B> working. I know it is a platitude but one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Are either of you willing to change or is one of you brave enough to call it a day?<P>MJ<BR>

<B>Yep...Yep...Yep...<P>I know I offended at least Snobird when I said that I thought it 'dangerous' for them to post to each other...they reinforce each other's fog almost as renewed contact with OP does.<BR>IMHO!<BR>Cali</B><P>THTHTHTthththththppppbbbbbttt! I feel no fog, at least not what I would consider a fog. My feelings are clear to me.<BR>

Mrs. Job, your points are reasonable, and I am fully aware of the definition of insanity, it is part of my motivation to change things....you could say that change started with a concious decision to continue the developing friendship with ow. Some (many) would say that was not the way to go about changing my life..... maybe, maybe not, most of what is "wrong" about affairs is wrapped in an arbitrary (and inconsistent) moral code applied over every human circumstance. It is quite possible (indeed probable) we do not have a full understanding of the applicable moral (Christian IMO) code, and attempt to implement it in deficient and faulty ways. It is entirely possible that a marriage itself might be wrong, and an A type behaviour exactly the right path to reconcille ones life (either in repairing or leaveing the marriage). No one can prove any of this with certainty, but we can observe affairs are an integral part of the description of human behaviour, so much so as to be considered normal. And in fact we can observe that affairs quite often lead to good outcomes (better marriages, or new marriages, not necessarily with op). Human bonding is a complex behaviour with many variables, and 2 independent agendas as well. We do know one thing though, it does make a difference, studies seem to show "happily" married people have the longest lifespans. Which suggests being marriage material and/or knowing when to throw in the towell is a survival characteristic. <P>re 2nd marriages, you have to break out the statistics. Folks who LEARN from their first marriage go on to have much better marriages relative to the averages of all first marriages. Folks who do not learn, or are not marriage material will of course fare no better 2nd, 3rd, 4th, time around. Just hope you do not fall in love with such a person I guess (for the 1st or subsequent times). To that end MB is a great service, those who study it, try to make it work, probably have a much higher success rate in 2nd marriages. Like folks say, you really have nothing to lose in trying MB stuff, it just cannot gaurantee success. You still have to be married to the right person, and many are not.

SnL,<P>Regarding your statements about 2nd marriages, because we know that you are 100% responsible for 50% of your marriage, I would like to know what you have learned "ABOUT YOURSELF" in your marriage to Thinker that you feel would make you successful in a 2nd marriage. <P>Jo

snobird, there is no call to be rude. This board is not designed for the WS to kick the crap out of BS's, and vice versa. It is to help people in need. Do you think your post here helped anyone but you?<P>You are in the fog, whether you like it or not...you just don't know you are until you are out again...much like a nervous breakdown. And I know what I'm talking about with that analogy there....<P>SNL, <P>So you're a lawyer, that explains why you like a good argument. But your thoughts are skewed right now. Whether you admit it or not, these arguments, although seemingly logically constructed, are just more feathers for your own nest. I think you would be such an asset to this board, if you would only stop preaching, and show some compassion to your wife and others here could benefit from your true wisdom. <P>But, small things say a lot. You are in the fog because you didn't even care that she was trying to sleep last night at 2pm, when you were clacking away at the keyboard in your joint bedroom. Why did you not go downstairs and use hers??? Is that off-bounds or something?<P>Actually, if I was her I would have suggested that.<P><BR>Look, here's my take on this...BS's get really annoyed whenever Ws's try to justify the rightness of an A. Most WS who come here are repentant, and get support. You do not. Why? You are not repentant, and you keep putting your wife down...keep looking for things to make you believe she is evil wife, and you were justified.<P>Just half way through that paragraph, I realised there is no talking to you...just try to do SOMETHING while you still have a measure of control in the outcome.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>re 2nd marriages, you have to break out the statistics. Folks who LEARN from their first marriage go on to have much better marriages relative to the averages of all first marriages. Folks who do not learn, or are not marriage material will of course fare no better 2nd, 3rd, 4th, time around. Just hope you do not fall in love with such a person I guess (for the 1st or subsequent times). To that end MB is a great service, those who study it, try to make it work, probably have a much higher success rate in 2nd marriages. Like folks say, you really have nothing to lose in trying MB stuff, it just cannot gaurantee success. You still have to be married to the right person, and many are not.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi s_n_l,<P>Ya know, I am in a second marriage. I wish I'd never had to get to this point. I adore-worship-love my new H, and yes, we use the concepts and they WORK WONDERFULLY, but... I would gladly have used them in my first marriage and made it last!<P>My second H happens to be a better "fit" by your definition, but my first H was a decent enough guy himself, and I would have saved my marriage and not ever even met my second H, if I could have. <P>OF COURSE, after 20 years, my (past)marriage was a bit boring, blah, blah, blah... but had my ex not gone out seeking OW, we'd still be married.<P>Being married to someone is a priviledge, not a right.<P>Yeah, I've learned how to be a better wife, but dammit, I wish I wouldn't have had to go through all that pain to do it.<P>s_n_l, I like you (ick, eh? ) but you drive me nuts with your circular reasoning. I would suspect your saving grace is your sparkling personality or something... however... you are still hurting (which isn't a strong enough word) your wife... please, please... make a decision and go with it.

<B>snobird, there is no call to be rude. This board is not designed for the WS to kick the crap out of BS's, and vice versa. It is to help people in need. Do you think your post here helped anyone but you?</B><P>Sorry, wasn't intending to be rude. It was just my way of brushing off something that I didn't believe. And yes it was posted just for me. Not every post here is that helpful to everyone. It was just an opinion. <P>IF I ever find I have a "fog", I'll deal with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>chaz I think you must have misunderstood that quote. Surely you agree that subjecting someone to only one outcome is limiting their ability, not only to choose that outcome (freely), but to not choose it at all.</B><P>Do you really believe that people come to a place called "Marriage Builders" to explore other alternatives? with little exception, the folks here are ones who have personally or through association tested the alternatives. and found them unacceptable at least for the moment. even you have made a judgement about the appropriatness of the relationship you had outside of your marriage. Your position is one which tries only to excuse your behaviour and unwillingness to truely attempt to save that which you likely dont want to save and are not honorable enough to move on.<P><B>I don't really think anyone is here to blindly restore a marriage at any cost, there is the unwritten expectation that the marriage be worthwhile according to good mental health standards.....heck even the harley's say that.</B><P>blindly? youre a guy wearing blinders who catches himself looking to the side wondering if maybe theres some truth to this process only to focus on what his "Feelings" are telling him to do and snaps himself and whomever he can drag along with him back to the choice that is some how "natural" as if convincing others that your position might have merit will strengthen your resolve and justify your actions. your wrong. what your doing lacks honor. <P><B>As for your influence, well...... most of you influence me, I bounce around like a ping pong ball, but that is what I need to do, it is how I function, how I resolve complex issues.</B><P>explain the complexity of the situation for me. You entered either through love or deception into a covenant with another human being. you promised yourself and your spouse that you would be their lifes partner. now because you find it convieniant to love another your willing to abandon not only your commitment and promise to another but to yourself. that isnt a strong point in your character, its not an enlightend state of being, its a sorry excuse for failing yourself and your wife right along with you. yes marriages fail, but far too often because people choose to follow the urges and pings of emotion rather than commit to resolving the issues within the relationship they are in. when all has been exhausted, when every real attempt has been made and there is genuine dispare and pain then its time to honor yourself and your spouse by leaving and making room for another to fulfill the promise that your not capable of meeting for each other. SNL what youve shown here however hasnt come close to genuine effort.<P>what your creating is complexity through your lack of commitment. I get that you feel just in your actions, i felt very much that way, I hear the pain of being abused quietly, and have lived it. I understand the use of intelect as justification as if the words sounding good even to your own ears makes the situation just and right. <BR>It simply doesnt change what is right and what isnt.<P>you know what the right thing to do is, yet because you have pain, and have lived with pain your not willing to let go of the crowbar that you discovered. the crow bar that will either save you within your relationship or end the suffering. believe me, when youve choosen one of these two paths for the right reason, all these little diatribes about the ow will end, all the conflict and complexities will fall away and you will have only yourself making a decision ...Left or right... pick a direction and move toward it.<P>either work toward ending your marriage on the merits of the condition of it or work to save it. what is relivent here isnt the OW or how your heart tells you finally that the marriage isnt what it should be but your actions and how you will ultimatly judge yourself when you close your eyes to sleep.<P><BR><B>I am a cautious man, and I immerse myself in data before I do much of anything. Heck, I analyzed myself into marriage, overrode my emotions that were screaming no no no, don't do this......it is just me chaz....the only emotional thing I ever did, just do it, go for it, was to let myself fall in love, knowing (but not really realizing the depths, or details) that it was not the analytical thing to do. Now I am being told that was wrong, but to just go ahead and "do it" ..... is it so hard I am having problems with that approach?</B><P>again your trying to mask a feable attempt at pretending to work on your marriage with words, the analytical approach to discovering whether your marriage is viable or not would include an immersion into the relationship and a pure attempt at understanding and modifying behaviours and actions on both ends to ilicite the origionally anticipated results. the way your going about it is akin to testing to see if you can purify a glass of water without removing the pebble in the bottom of the glass.<P><B>As for being disruptive, some feel so, some do not, what do you make of that?</B><P>there is no doubt that people who seek to understand the seemingly unpredictible behaviour of their fogged spouses find value in what you say, for your a functioning fog bank. one that can at time articulate what may be going on for a WS who is unable to commit. because you are there. there is value in that. it is quite another to promote anything other than the building of marriage in a place where people come to do so. kind of like passing out shots of tequila at an AA meeting. or would you be ok with that?<P><B>i confess to being confused by your efforts chaz, but it interests me in my search for understanding about why people do what they do.</B><P>your confused because your seeking to understand the wrong end. this is a journey of self discovery, not an experiment or invesitgation into the actions of others. the energy and time exerted here isnt my attempt to understand you, as all i will ever have is a judgment for i will never comprehend what has transpired for you in your 51 years, all i can hope to do through sharing of my personal discovery is maybe example in myself what might be an honorable path for you. and hold you accountable for your actions and encourage you to act with integrity. thats it. <P><B>IMO you take far too much responsibility for the state of your marriage. I think it would have made much more sense for you to divorce, and first fix yourself, and she herself (if you are that screwed up), then date and remarry your wife, why haven't you done that? I don't believe it is psychologically sound to repair personality disorders while married,</B><P>Responsibility is for the taking, leaders assume the responsibility in all situations. if i am to lead in my marriage if i am to be the one who provides the avenue by which it will be saved, then i must take on the responsibility. <P>if i choose to blame my wife am i leading? how does that serve recovery? where is your analytical approach to this? successful leaders dont point to the past and blame their predecessors, they look at the now and into the future at what is and what can be. sure they learn from the mistakes so as to not repeate them but they dont dwell on them nor do they continue to live in them.<P>if your marriage were a corporation you would be forced to jointly recover, for the sales and production departments may both be radically disfunctional and even unstable yet one without the other will fail every time. so you have to choose to resolve the issues each department working both independently and jointly toward the common goal. each having ideals and objectives that very often seem opposing and yet in order to find success in order to continue to exist one must have the other. <P>you might counter that its possible to outsource sales or send production overseas but you see that is really the dissolution of the corporation or divorce and if all efforts to save the sales or production department lead to that inevitable outcome then at least the efforts were jointly made and the resolution jointly agreed upon.<P><B>nor should such a trauma be visited on an unsuspecting spouse, but I guess if they fully know and understand ones psychological condition and go forward anyways, is a free choice.... did your wife know? I can't help but wonder if the stress your marriage is under while you try to fix things isn't doing more damage than the original problem itself. Not dissing you, just wondering about this stuff. I shudder at some of the crud people bring to marriages and just figure it is ok. It is like marrying someone first, then telling em, oh yeah by the way, I have a debilitating disease, and you are gonna have to spend the rest of your life taking care of me, just like you vowed too....what's that about? </B><P>just as youve seen describe here the outcome of a relationship built on a foundation of deciet will ultimately end in its demise. youve said that there is an iniciative against divorce i am not sure that you mean here or in society but i couldnt disagree more. if your intent on destroying to person youve married, then i dont think anyone here or in society truely wants you to do so. even most churches will spritually divorce you for such a reason. <P>your rational however seems to attempt to absolve yourself of any responsibility for having entered into the relationship at all. if you made a huge error, if your suffering and being destroyed emotionally by a corrosive person then either rise above it lead the relationship to a healthy state or get out. but let the state of the relationship be the reason, not something as disreputable as your failing to honor your word or commitments.<P><B>The more I look at this, the more sure I become that vows are one of the biggest con jobs ever foisted on human beings.</B><P>how sad that is, have you really become such a lost soul, how would express your love and devotion to your children and your god or even yourself without strong vows of commitment. the rules arnt serving you so they must be wrong huh?<P><B>....in most cases we enter marriages totally blind to the psychological realities of the spouse (mostly due to the efforts we all deliberately make to mask our deficiencies),</B><P>again False, your trying to hoist your situation on to the majority, the majority of marriages still succeed, and are entered into by mature and loving adults who for whatever reason probably committed parents understood what the covenant of marriage was before they entered in to it. or have learned toghether what it is about. either way your wrong.<P><B> and then just expect everyone to suck it up and make it work....why are any of us responsible for assisting or waiting for someone to straighten themself out,</B><P>is it that your feeling guilty for expecting your wife to suck it up and make it work, or is that an assurtion that your not willing to commit to doing it?<P>life is a journey of personal growth, one that can become a journey of interdependant growth you clinging to your mate and fulfilling an even greater destiny than each independantly was incapable of without the other.<P><B> shouldn't they do that BEFORE getting married? Anyways I am just rambling here about another part of this business that bugs me a great deal.</B><P>life has bearily begun when we typically make these commitments, expecting that to be done before would likely end civilization as no one would get married.<P>snl just as many BS hold on to the A and punish the WS unmercifully i suspect that you fancy yourself the victim, the one who gave up everthing to do for your spouse, and got neglect and abuse in return. the kind of abuse that seem invisible to others, the kind that kills you softly without sound that leaves your soul longing and barren while your spouse seemingly lives there life content and happy for they have everything they want and you are the simply the supplier of that contented way of life. while they flourish in sweet happiness you toil at providing it seemingly unable to ask for and recieve what it is that would be sustaining of life itself because somehow its wrong for you to be unhappy while she is content. so now you have leverage, you remember or have discovered anew what makes you happy and alive, and your still unwilling to ask that and recieve it from your wife. your unwilling to let go of what brought you life for fear that you will once again accept what was. and you have guilt about the commitment you made, and seach desperatly for real visible justification to end it rather than fix it. and maybe just maybe she deserve to suffer as you did, she never appreciated what you gave of yourself did she? if she had she would have been seeking to make you as happy yes? and know your vision of her is so distorted that you cannot envision her as someone who could. <P>it is easier to give birth that ressurect the dead, the path of least resistance leads you to the OW or out, yet there is something that keep you there. for me it was the realization that i never set the standards of performance at a level she was expected to achieve. she was simply unaware of my unhappiness. how could i make life so comfortable for her if i was so unhappy? and there is logic behind that. so now my job is to undo the trainging of the last 12 years and invoke new policy and procedures, just as if i were reorganizing a failing buisness, i would throw out the old dysfunctional processes and reinvent the system.<P>that doesnt give me permission to abuse the ones who ran it into the ground in fact its my responsibilty to restore them to a state of productive members. and success requires that i have both feet in the door and my full commitment to the organizaiton to succeed. i cant pine to work and the company next door and expect to succeed here. <P>SNL most of what you spend time pontificating on is simply attempts at self justification for your actions, not trying to examine and understand others the elaborate complexity that your building around the issues is your way of not owning the simpliciy of honor and doing what is right. your failing to examine your marriage independant of your relationship to this OW for fear of losing what has awkened your spirit. and whats worse is that you know your wrong for doing so or you would have left already.<P>if your not interested in building marriages, then i strongly suggest you find another forum, i think you are interested, but very hurt, i feel for your situation but it doesnt justify dragging others in. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

SNL.<P>It seems to me that you are looking for validation for your actions. There is a way out of a marriage that isn't working. You talk about your problems and try to work them out, and if you can't ...You leave. You don't sneak around behind someone's back and find your "soulmate". It takes a real man to end his marriage in this fashion and not someone who looks to "line something up" before he leaves. I don't know you SNL, and I am quite sure I don't want to. You, sir, are a coward. And I do believe that your presence is hurting people who are confused. This sight, I thought, is devoted to people who want to work on there problems, and try to find a solution. The solution can be getting back together or going their separate ways, but not without acknowledging that the WS did something wrong. That's just common sense. Your not looking for a solution, your looking for someone to tell you what you did or are doing is OK. What your did is not OK, and , god help us all if we ever buy into your nonsense. It's just my opinion, but if I tell you it's OK to be selfish, will you go away and leave all of us ,who are genuine in our efforts to solve our problems , alone you selfish self centered man.<P>

SNL,<P>I asked the question because you have often sounded like my H when he was so lost and hurt and confused. His thought process was a lot like yours and..........he's so glad he stayed, I'm so glad he stayed and we both feel so blessed that we've had this tremendous opportunity to build the marriage we both wished we had had in the first 13 years. <P>Your situation with your wife is not uncommon. So many people spend years hurting each other. What's past is past. If you are ever going to begin to make an attempt to save your marriage you have got to TRASH the past. That is the FIRST step and you haven't even gotten there yet, after all of your time here. It's discouraging to us ( MBers)isn't it discouraging to you? How long will you be content to do nothing? For Thinkers sake, I hope it isn't very much longer, for that would be the epitome of cruelty. If you can't commit to trying, really trying, let her go<BR>so she can heal from this, alone if she has to.<P>I would never dream of telling someone here that they should leave, but you can expect that when the regulars here see you cemented in one spot, not moving in ANY direction that we question of what use we can be to you and become concerned regarding the negative vibes you leave in your path. You refuse to let us help you. It makes us wonder if you truly want help or merely a sounding board. If it's just a sounding board you want this probably isn't the place for you.<P>I see Chaz as your polar opposite in regards to approaches to recovery. You can learn a lot from him. He's speaking the truth to you SNL. Does he have to? No. Why does he, when it is likely that it seems to him that he is banging his head against a wall? Because he knows full well that even in situations just like yours, wonderful, fulfilling love filled marriages can be built. I know the same thing SNL. Despite our frustration with you, we care and would hate to see you waste this chance not only to build an incredible marriage but to learn the things about yourself that you seem so intent on and then some. I pray that you find peace and a healed marriage. <P>

S-n-L: It has been awhile since I've been over here to GQII, but after reading your postings, I feel a need to respond.<P>As others here have noted, most of your arguments are based upon attempts to justify your own actions. I'm surprised that someone so analytical could fall so easily into rationalization!<P>I wouldn't expect you to be swayed by anecdotes, but since I don't think I could cut through such a fog of rationalization and self-justification with reason, here goes:<P>My uncle was sad to see that my marriage had ended. My Ex had found her "soul-mate," and used many of the same arguments and justifications you have. We "never should have married," we were never "in love," etc. My uncle was sad because he had heard the same arguments before. In fact, he had made some of them himself! He had married when he was very young, and started having kids soon after. He and his wife were not a "perfect fit," in fact it took years before the rest of the family accepted her. They had different social, ethnic, and religious backgrounds. They argued more often than not, but agreed to keep the marriage together for the kids' sake. <P>When the kids had all grown up and moved out, they came to another crossroads. After all those years together, they didn't even know each other that well! All the differences came out again, and they had to work very hard to keep the marriage together. My uncle says there were long stretches of time, sometimes several years long, when he was sure he didn't love his wife, and never did. <P>Now, after 51 years of marriage, my uncle has a profound understanding of what they have accomplished. Their marriage is stronger than it has ever been, and he has a great satisfaction that he can only begin to explain. He looks back now on all the times he thought his marriage was over...all the times he wanted to get divorced, all the times she wanted a divorce, and all the times they grudgingly decided to "tough it out." <P>Now, at the end of his life, he is glad that he never took the easy way out. He takes great satisfaction that he never abandoned his vows, and he loves his wife more fervently than ever.<P>Were they the "perfect fit" for each other? No. Were they "soul-mates?" Not at first. Yet through hard work, dedication, and the kind of patience most people cannot even imagine, they came to BE soul-mates. Looking back on their lives, they have no regrets...they wouldn't change a thing.<P>That floored me, to say the least. So many people in the midst of marital problems can only see the immediate future. They <B>think</B> that the distant future only holds unhappiness, but what do they really know? If my uncle had acted on what he <B>thought</B> was going to happen, he would not have the happiness that he enjoys today. But he's a stand-up guy. He honored his marriage vows, often times doubting the validity of those vows. Now he knows, more than many of us here can fathom, why it was so important to honor them.<P>