Assuming it is a given that cultural practices change with the needs of individuals (and the state, that eternal tension) how might marriage look in the future.....any ideas?<P>1. Maybe there is a 1-2 year waiting period before you will be granted a marriage license. Along with serious pre-marital (MB etc.) counselling, and role playing. (and no other simultaneous relationships, or you start wait over).<P>2. Maybe there will be a similar 1-2 year waiting period for divorce, and mandatory participation in a reconcilliation program.<P>IMO you solve problems by going to the root, making people stay in marriages by guilt, vows, peer pressure and other similar coercive methods just leads to untold misery for so many. The problem is people without a clue are marrying each other, often with much less thought than they put into choosing a career, or even a car (sad but true). They put on blinders and often marry people everyone in their life is telling em no no no. Etc. etc. we have to make marriage much harder to enter, by doing so, I suspect we could significantly increase the % of successful and HAPPY marriages.<P>3. Maybe we make marriage licenses renewable (from a legal standpoint).... they expire every 5 years and it takes the enthusiastic agreement of both to renew. If not (after 90 days, the marriage lapses, and you must reapply, have a 1 year waiting period, and go through pre-marital counselling tune-up). If someone is not happy, they just don't renew....IMO that removes the coercion effect of vows, and emphazies what marriage/vows should be, the free choice of enthusiastic people every day (or at least every 5 years). Of course would be appropriate (and with teeth) economic fairplay if marriage ends this way. I wonder how many people feel secure enough in their marital love to be legally vulnerable that way, would sure reveal a lot about how folks view their marriages. <P>Somehow the state needs to play a more effective role in helping messy humans manage this most complex type of human interaction.<P>I really don't think we have a marital crisis, or even a moral crisis, what we have is an ignorance crisis, and no effective social enforcement of marital doctrine. People need to do a lot better job of being radically honest re their persons, and mate selection....right now a lot of marriage is almost predatory in nature. I talked to a young woman (about 25 yo) couple days ago, asked her what her plans were, whether she was going to school at night etc. She is pretty, seemed reasonably smart, has nice parents (been married a long time, seem to get along), had a good job...her answer..... my goal is to find a guy with money and marry him...... what are the odds that marriage will have trouble? And do you think she will reveal this to the man she marries? What happens latter when he realizes he is primarily a paycheck, and maybe wants to leave, you suppose she might say you made vows, you promised? Sadly I think far to many of us marry exactly that way, in one form or another we want something, and we don't really focus a whole lot on who we really are, and how we fit each other.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 25, 2001).]

Maybe if people knew that marriage would be harder to get out of, then they would be more hesitant to get married, or be more careful in their choice of partners. I know lots of people with the attitude "If it doesn't work out, we can always get divorced." Some of them are in their 30s and on their 3rd marriage. Getting married is like going to the store and buying a new flavor of potato chips for some people. You bought it, but if you don't like the flavor after afew bits you can throw them out.<P>There was somethign on the news afew years ago about some state (LA?) offering a different type of marriage contract that involved difficulty if there was to be a divorce. Mandatory counseling, waiting period etc. I don't remember the details but it seemed like a good idea. It was completely optional of course. Maybe the disposable marriage people could have one of those 3 year renewable contracts. That way they coudl move onto the next soulmate with a minimum of hassle. The people who feel a deeper sense of commitment could choose the other contract. It would also probably prevent a lot of "potato chip" people from marrying "in it for the long haul" people. My H was behaving bizarrely when he had his A for a variety of reasons, but if he'd had it spelled out in writing "To get out of this marriage you have to do X,Y,Z and it will take this long.." He might have thought about his actions a little more carefully. In his fog state he actually thought we could get a cheap, quickie divorce and that he could pay to rent an apt. for me for 3 months (don't know where he pulled 3 months from). Meanwhile he would keep our 500,000 house. ROFL. This is a man with a Master's Degree in finance. Under ordinary circumstances he knows better. But he really, truly believed it. Along with "We will always be best friends, no matter what."<P>You keep talkig aobut the misery of being stuck in a horrible marriage due to guilt, pushy spouse etc. What you aren't taking inot account, because this isnt' your present experience, is that many (maybe most) WS feel that way at some point in time. But then more time goes by and they feel completely differently and WANT to stay in their marriages. A waiting period for a divorce might give many of those people the time they need to really think about their decisions and analyze their feelings. My sister quickly divorced her WS husband even though she didn't want to. He absolutely, positively wanted a divorce, he was so miserable blah blah. They didnt' have kids, he agreed to everything so she gave him a quick annulment. He told her on the day of the annulment "This is the happiest I've ever been." He also told her that on the wedding day, but I digress. Anyway, guess who came crawling back with a flood of tears, crying about his horrible mistake, 2 months AFTER the divorce was final? He suddenly realized my sister was "his true soulmate" and the "love of his life". Maybe if there had been a waiting period and mandatory counseling things would have been different.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Assuming it is a given that cultural practices change with the needs of individuals (and the state, that eternal tension) how might marriage look in the future.....any ideas?<P>1. Maybe there is a 1-2 year waiting period before you will be granted a marriage license. Along with serious pre-marital (MB etc.) counselling, and role playing. (and no other simultaneous relationships, or you start wait over).<P>2. Maybe there will be a similar 1-2 year waiting period for divorce, and mandatory participation in a reconcilliation program.<P>IMO you solve problems by going to the root, making people stay in marriages by guilt, vows, peer pressure and other similar coercive methods just leads to untold misery for so many. The problem is people without a clue are marrying each other, often with much less thought than they put into choosing a career, or even a car (sad but true). They put on blinders and often marry people everyone in their life is telling em no no no. Etc. etc. we have to make marriage much harder to enter, by doing so, I suspect we could significantly increase the % of successful and HAPPY marriages.<P>3. Maybe we make marriage licenses renewable (from a legal standpoint).... they expire every 5 years and it takes the enthusiastic agreement of both to renew. If not (after 90 days, the marriage lapses, and you must reapply, have a 1 year waiting period, and go through pre-marital counselling tune-up). If someone is not happy, they just don't renew....IMO that removes the coercion effect of vows, and emphazies what marriage/vows should be, the free choice of enthusiastic people every day (or at least every 5 years). Of course would be appropriate (and with teeth) economic fairplay if marriage ends this way. I wonder how many people feel secure enough in their marital love to be legally vulnerable that way, would sure reveal a lot about how folks view their marriages. <P>Somehow the state needs to play a more effective role in helping messy humans manage this most complex type of human interaction.<P>I really don't think we have a marital crisis, or even a moral crisis, what we have is an ignorance crisis, and no effective social enforcement of marital doctrine. People need to do a lot better job of being radically honest re their persons, and mate selection....right now a lot of marriage is almost predatory in nature. I talked to a young woman (about 25 yo) couple days ago, asked her what her plans were, whether she was going to school at night etc. She is pretty, seemed reasonably smart, has nice parents (been married a long time, seem to get along), had a good job...her answer..... my goal is to find a guy with money and marry him...... what are the odds that marriage will have trouble? And do you think she will reveal this to the man she marries? What happens latter when he realizes he is primarily a paycheck, and maybe wants to leave, you suppose she might say you made vows, you promised? Sadly I think far to many of us marry exactly that way, in one form or another we want something, and we don't really focus a whole lot on who we really are, and how we fit each other.<P>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 25, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SNL,<P>Have to disagree with you on this one. The last thing we need is the government placing it's values on us. <BR>You asked me earlier who decides on what and when it is acceptable to D. I kind of sensed a trap there. Now you are advocating the regulation of marriage. <P>Straight between your eyes. You're now looking for someone else to let you out or wish that things were in place to make it easier to get out without taking responsability. If you hang long enough and let your W be the one to end it all you are doing is puting a bandaid on your guilt. <P>BTW, why are you talking to a 25 yo girl about what she wants in life?<P><BR>who

Yes, here I am to agree with a few things SnL has said! I think more prep work should be given to the consideration of marriage. More church support and relationship workshops and classes. Also moving up the legal age might help (what do you think? 30-35??). The idea of a renewable marraige license doesn't bother me either.<P>If you simply make a marriage HARDER to get OUT of, then that makes about as much sense as that theory that if prison life is harder, then people will be less likely to commit crimes. When you get married you aren't thinking about ever wanting to get out. That comes some time later, if at all. The same with a crime. The criminal doesn't commit it with a MIND to be caught. He thinks that won't ever come up at all. Like divorce. <P>(Okay no comparing us to criminals or marriage to prisons! That wasn't my point.)<P>Sno

SNL,<P>Maybe what we do is educate people on how to have a good marraige and what marriage really means.<P>If all couples were taught something like the MB principles and concepts BEFORE they got married they would undestand what it takes to build and maintain a good marriage.<P>Z

Who....BTW, why are you talking to a 25 yo girl about what she wants in life?<P>snl....LOL, yes, a very perceptive question, and an issue that never crossed my mind. I am a talker, and I am intensely curious about (and like) people. Now my wife is paranoid about me talking to woman, she thinks that is how I was ensnared. I'd like to think I am not that simple minded, just raw meat for any predatory female who won't respect that I am married. But be that as it may, naturally the issue of the day is marital stuff, life stuff, and I talk about it with all kinds of people, men , women, old, young, divorced, single whatever. In my job I meet about 600 people a year (2/3 women) in their homes, that is thousands in the last 20 years, I have never done anything inappropriate with any of them, nor would I. But I have had some pretty in depth conversations, people are generally quite willing to tell you there life history in intimate detail if you are a good listener, and I am (believe it or not). If I have not succombed now, I doubt I ever will just because of that. And it underscores my point re fit, I was never attracted to any of them, although I liked many of em just fine (well actually there was one once, but I did nothing about the attraction). However, there was a powerful draw to the ow from the instant I became aware of her (she was a fellow poster on a board), I have no idea how or why such things work, and that is part of what I am trying to figure out. But re this particular 25 yo woman, my wife was with me and participating in the conversation she also is paying a lot of attention to who I talk to anymore, and I do not try to hide anything, I tell her about all the stuff.

<BR><<<If you simply make a marriage HARDER to get OUT of, then that makes about as much sense as that theory that if prison life is harder, then people will be less likely to commit crimes.>>>><P>I think a lot of people don't commit crimes because they don't want to go to prison. It's awfully tempting to cheat on taxes, but a felony conviction, and subsequent prison term, is a pretty big deterrent, at least in my eyes... Of course people don't go into marriage planning on getting divorced, though there are many who don't think of divorce as a big deal. My point is that if people know it's not easy to get out of a marriage, then they will be more willing to put in the WORK to make it better. My H never gave me the slightest clue that he was unhappy (until he started his A of course). When I asked him how I was supposed to know he said "You weren't, I didn't want you to know." When I asked him for a chance to work things out he said "I did work on it." How did he work on it? "I've been here the last few months when I wasn't really happy." His idea (at the time) was that his mere presence in the house was "working on it". Luckily his perceptions are completely different now.<BR>

<B>I think a lot of people don't commit crimes because they don't want to go to prison.</B>*********No, I think people don't commit crimes because of a sense of right and wrong within them. I could commit all sorts of things and probably not get caught, but I don't want to. However, there are acceptions. If I or my family were starving, I very well might steal. If I were being chased by someone bad, I might steal a car. I didn't NOT have an affair previously because I was afraid of being caught, but because I had never wanted or felt the desire to.<P><B>Of course people don't go into marriage planning on getting divorced, though there are many who don't think of divorce as a big deal. My point is that if people know it's not easy to get out of a marriage, then they will be more willing to put in the WORK to make it better.</B>********hmmmm, I just don't think that would really work. If it's harder to get out then maybe more people wouldn't get married at all and there would be more live-in couples. Not that that bothers me, but I think marriage should be thought of as a good thing, beneficial, fun, rewarding, etc. Making it look like just a legal contract (though it may be) isn't going to make it more appealing to those on the fence about anything. And you will never really beable to make every marriage 100% divorce proof. I say, let's not make it any more difficult than it already is, when it is needed.<BR>

<<<<I didn't NOT have an affair previously because I was afraid of being caught, but because I had never wanted or felt the desire to.>>><P>I was in a long term live in realtionship and I very much wanted to have an affair. Several differnt times. I did feel lie the relationship was dead and going nowhere, he didnt' want to work on things although I tried. I didn't cheat for several reasons. I knew it wasnt' right, first of all. The only way I would know for sure if leaving the relationship was the right thing to do was to do it on my own. No backup person urging me on or to fall back on. I knew that if it was really not the right situation for me, not salvageable, then I could do it on my own. Nothing to cloud my judgment. The added bonus was that my subsequent relationship wouldn't be tainted by previous cheating. One of my friends married her OM. After afew years he started telling her she could never be trusted because she was a proven cheater. It's still an issue with them. And the reson I never marreid the person I lived with and left was because I didn't want to be legally entangled with him, since I was unsure. If marriage was even easier to get out of I might have married him. Scary.<P><<<I just don't think that would really work. If it's harder to get out then maybe more people wouldn't get married at all and there would be more live-in couples.>>><P>And that would be fine. Those that weren't sure if they were willing to expend the effort to stick it out and make it work would be obvious. To themselves and to their perspective partners.<P><<<I think marriage should be thought of as a good thing, beneficial, fun, rewarding, etc.>>><P>Of course. It shoudl be all of those things. But people have to recognize that it won't always be a bed of roses. Too many go in with unrealistic expectations. My own H did. He said "I never realized being married would take work. I thought things woudl just run smoothly without ever having to do anything." That rarely happens unfortuantely. Now we both make daily effort.<P><<<Making it look like just a legal contract (though it may be) isn't going to make it more appealing to those on the fence about anything.>>><P>Part of my point. Those who are "on the fence" should NOT get married! <P><<<And you will never really beable to make every marriage 100% divorce proof.>>><P>That's true. But I think the numbers can be greatly reduced. If couples put half as much effort into their marraige as they do into "amicable divorces" there woudl be a lot more people staying married. <P><<I say, let's not make it any more difficult than it already is, when it is needed.>>><P>But so many people would change their mind if there was a longer waiting period. I know so many people who regret their divorces. I've heard 3 wandering spouses who did divorce say "If he/she would only have fought harder for me we would still be together." All 3 of them left the spouse and none of them ended up marrying the OP incidentally. That doesnt' even count my exBIL who begged mys sister to take him back 2 months after the divorce he desperately wanted.

Nobody who cheats will ever say they want a short-term or temporary marriage.<P>What most of them want are the benefits of marriage AND the fun and games of a harmless little fling on the side.<P>Look at all the fence-sitters talked about here on MB!<P>The only thing that will help this is 1) spouses who refuse to tolerate this situation, and 2) having the affair made PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE as soon as it is found out.<P>Have a special section in the newspaper - or a special website - that posts those lovely emails and letters and phone messages the two of them send to each other. Let the whole world see what they're really about.<P>Bet you could sell a lot of newspapers that way!<P>Psycho_B***h<P>

in what way does this conversation strengthen your existing marriage? <P>i am not interested in what you would change about the cultural practices of marriage i am interested in what you are doing to increase the chance of long term success in your current marriage.<P>oh i am sorry your doing some kind of thesis on how other people succeeed in marriage but not for the purpose of saving yours i forgot.<P>just another way of talking about marriage to ease your conscience when not working on really saving or owning the reality of your own?

Here is a thought as to how we can assure the success of more marriages. What if we just tried to treat our spouses with kindness and respect? How about applying that Golden Rule to our personal lives? I do not believe vows should protect anyone from repeated abusive behavior--just because we are married doesn't give anyone the right to disparage, criticize, and browbeat another human being. How about a vow that says we won't do this kind of stuff anymore?