<BR> <BR>I am still going through a lot, I think the anti-depressants that I just got from the Doc. are starting to kick in, but I am still very down. I am not the same person as I was, probably never will be. I think before all of this, I would have said these are the times that make you a better person, and where life tests you to see how strong you really are. I can't believe that though. I feel we all protect ourselves in some way from everyday life. We block our hearts and our souls from being hurt by others, especially those we don't trust. I feel like I had no protection, I opened up totally for her to rip my heart out and dice it up into little pieces, so she could hand it back to me and say "now try to put it back together like it used to be." It will never be like it used to be, I will never be able to love like I used to. I feel like I am numb inside, like I have no feelings or emotions. I still feel love, but I have a hard time feeling anything else right now. I actually had a hard time the first week because I didn't even feel love, that scared me more than anything. I had no feelings of love for KS, and I could only think that feeling wouldn't return, or if it did, it wouldn't compare to how I felt about her before all this.<BR> <BR>I am hoping and praying that this will work out, but I have a hard time with the many questions I am having. I don't even ask why it happened anymore. I seem to be stuck on the fear or question of whether she is telling the whole truth or not. I question if she will do this again. I fear that she will do it again. I question if she is being honest about how she really feels and if this is truly what she wants. I worry if I start to get over this like I was only 2 weeks ago, if she will land another blow that will probably kill me the next time. I am actually afraid to move on because I honestly don't think I could handle going through this again...I told her that this is the last time, and to tell all now because I will, I promise I will not stay if more info comes out about the time I start getting over this. I never intended for us to have to go through this, and I never married her to be killed by my love for her, I married her to be happy together. This is unhealthy, mentally, physically, and emotionally. <BR> <BR>One of the only reasons I am so willing to work on this marriage at this point is because I am afraid I will never find a woman I could trust after all this. I wouldn't trust another woman after these things have been done to me. How could anybody trust their hearts with another after having been destroyed by someone they love so much. I trusted her every bit with my heart, I let her care for my heart, hold it, love it, and she instead destroyed it. How does a person trust again after all this. I am not just talking about trust her not to lie, or cheat, or any of that. I am talking about, how do you trust her with your heart again after the things she did to it. I hope I can find the answer soon, before I completely lose everything that has ever ment anything to me. I love my family, my W and kids, but I love myself also and I am afraid that this could destroy all of that. Another blow like this, could destroy what little I have left.<BR> <P>

SEM--<P>I'm gonna recommend some books to you that have really helped me with the things that you are struggling...they are by don Miguel Ruiz...<I>The Four Agreements</I> and <I>The Mastery of Love</I>. I ordered my copies from Amazon.com.<P>Please don't take offense...but according to Ruiz, this is all about you being able to change your mindset from "how could she do this to me." to "this was all about her...I can accept that it was not about me and choose to move on..."<P>He writes a lot about where our current agreements and beliefs come from and how we can change them to new ones...<P>In <I>Mastery of Love </I>, he talks about why all relationships are 'doomed' to fail unless we face certain truths about humans and how we are socialized.<P>The last book is by Bruce Wilkinson, <I>The Secrets of the Vine</I>, I recommend if you are 'churched.' If you believe in God and can trust his path for you, I think this book will also speak to you.<P>These three books, I read over the summer, really gave me reasons and helped me to change and do an even better plan A.<P>Hugs,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

SEM I'm sorry you're feeling down. Wish there were something I could do to make you feel better. I know it sucks. Glad to hear the anti-depressants are starting to kick in. Any plans for the weekend? Try to focus on something for you. Maybe you need a little me time. Hope tomorrow is a better day for you.<BR>hugs and prayers<BR>c

SEM,<P> Man I am sorry things won't seem to come together for you. <BR>Go out this weekend and do some of that camping or hiking we talked about. You are going to have to take a break. This crap is gonna eat you alive. Take a few days to yourself. <P> I know how you feel man. Today was another low, low point for me as well. This SUCKS!!!<P> My ICQ appears to be down at the moment. If it comes up tonight I'll try to catch you on there.<P> jd

Maybe this will help!<BR> <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/forumlinks4.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/forumlinks4.html</A> <P>Love and light,<P>Jacky<p>[This message has been edited by Nina too (edited September 28, 2001).]

Ok sem, try this on. There are 2 possibilities...<P>1. You choose to trust, the facts make sense, who wants to admit to casual sex in the restroom (I think she said, but whatever), obviously an incredibly stupid, defenseless (can't even claim love), act of wanton disregard for not only you but herself. Who in their right mind is gonna want to admit to that....but rather will tell themself it is over, temporary insanity...and so forth. But they find they have to own up, so they do.... yeah feels suspicious, but still makes sense.....so you go with it, choose to believe it, no longer focus on it..<P>A. she is telling the truth, you recover and live happily ever after.<P>B. She is lieing, you find out eventually, your heart gets broke, you figure life sucks, blah blah blah....but you will survive, people always do, it is an attitude thingy, you move on.<P>C. she is lieing, and you never find out...that's tougher, but if she has healed, it becomes a part of her past that is no longer relevant, she never acts thusly again, and probably will tell you someday when she feels safer....she is only human sem, and it is the future that ultimately counts.<P>Or 2. You choose not to trust, stay stuck, apathetic, until either you or ks gives up, pronounces the patient dead and you end up divorced anyways.<P>Lastly she may cheat again, but then so may you, such is the risk we all take. One of two things happens with ws....it is a learning experience, a life lesson, and regardless of how the marriage goes (ends or not) the ws will never allow themself to be in such a position again. OR a ws is revealed for what they are, a flawed human who is never to be trusted, and probably not marriage material, only acceptable to those who are willing to trade what they have to offer for the risk of the infidelites they will also be subject to. You have to make a decsion, to trust or not to trust, and go boldly forth. <P>I can't help but notice the similarities between where you are and where a ws is that is being asked to come back, to trust, and has trouble finding the feelings even if they are willing to accept the possibiilites it will work. Makes me kinda sympathetic to your plight, and feel a little hypocritical for telling you to essentially get off the fence...oh well, do what "I" say, not what I "do"...or something like that.......if all else fails you flip a coin, I am beginning to think that works about as good as anything, trying to figure it all out gives one a headache.<P>But I do know one thing sem, whatever I do it is going to be what my heart says, my head figures it all out, sees all the issues, all the parameters, does the work, but ultimately, when the time is right, my heart will make the final choice. That means no matter what, I will be scared, uncertain, and vulnerable, cause that is the way hearts work....but I will not look back, and trust God to keep me in his hands whether I choose right or wrong.... What does your heart say eric? <P>

hey snl-<BR>Why is it that I'm sensing a turning point here for you. I'm seeing a caring person trying to help others instead of whining and trying to make excuses. Thanks again for your thoughtful post to me last night, and I hope that sem can make the right choice...you've given him quite a lot to think about, I'd say.

Oh, the whiney guy is still here, I prefer to call it truthseeking though He is mulling over stuff (he is cautious that way) and will be back with more, but for now he is giving the agonizing a rest and doing what he likes to do, help folks. Ya all need a break anyways.

bless your soul snl. All and any help is always appreciated. Hey, can you find me a job? :-) I think I'm coming out of the oh-my-god state and passing through the pissed-as-heck state and hopefully moving on to the i-can-do-this state. Tweaking up the old resume with the help of some excellent marketing friends, and we'll see what happens. Thanks again for the cyber hug, can't tell you what that meant to me after the bashing I have given you in the past. <P>Sleep tight <BR>Debbie<BR>

SEM (and KS too)<BR>What you describe is NORMAL. OK? It really is..I've been there, felt exactly the same way...it will get better. The one piece of advice that I was given the most often that I absolutely HATED was...it takes time...you can't speed it up. But, now that my hindsight is getting closer to 20/20, that's exactly what it does take.<P>Now, that doesn't mean you sit around watching the clock/calendar waiting for everything to be hunky-dorey again. It means it's time to take some tiny little tentative steps in the right direction.<P>SEM, yup, you're depressed, the anti-d's will kick in fully in about 6 weeks...you can hurry that up a little...get outside and walk for 45 minutes every day...that will help...releases the body's endorphins..a natural anti-d just waiting to be released...don't think about it..just do it.<P>There is an exercise in one of the million recovery books I read that is simple and good...put a piece of paper on the fridge, your name on one side, her name on the other. Each day write down one thing you appreciate about her, she dows the same for you.<P>Acceptance...this may be a little early, but go ahead, let yourself believe she's told you everything..I really think she has. Anyway, this will help you get out from under the barricade waiting for the other bomb to drop. It's hard to let it go, but really make an effort.<P>Write it down..anger, sorrow, humiliation, hurt, frustration, fear...all of it...simple phrases but get them out.<P>Accomplish one thing each day...clean the car, clean out a closet, balance the checkbook, but each morning think of ONE thing to accomplish and get it down<P>OK, enough for now, hang in there you two..still think you've got what it takes.<BR>T<P>

SNL,<BR>Your advice sounds sound great. I pray that you take it in effect as well. <P>Twyla,<BR>I will go ahnga paice of paper on the fridge right now. Thank you so much <P>SEM,<BR>I pray to God to find a way to prove to you that I'm telling you the whole truth. No lies, no omitting of anything. So I write this to you.<P>I hate to see you hurt,<BR>Cause I know I'm a big jerk,<BR>and I know it's all my fault.<P>I have nothing to gain<BR>when I see you in pain,<BR>Right now I'm full of fear<BR>And that only brings more tears.<P>I hope one day you'll forgive me<BR>Cause right now I can not see<BR>and once you try to forgive<BR>I know I can really live.<P>You gave me your heart<BR>and I did not do my part<BR>So now I give you my heart<BR>and I ask you for a new start.<P>I long for your sweet kiss<BR>From those wonderfully sweet lips<BR>Please find it in your heart<BR>to begin a new start<BR>I love you in every possible way<BR>Each and every day<P>I love you more than every sand grain<BR>I love you more than every drop of rain,<BR>I love you from the bottom of my toes <BR>to the tip of my nose<BR>I long for your touch<BR>And I love you so much<P>I need you<BR>and I hope you need me too<BR>I really love you<BR>Oh yes I do. <BR>Love Sherry<BR>The 29th day of September of 2001

Wow Keep Smiling,<BR>That was beautiful. I pray for the day when my H can feel this way. I am saying a prayer for you and SEM. Keep doing what you're doing. It's great to see that kind of love after all the crap.<P>MOM

SEM & KS,<BR>How to get over all this hurt and disappointment and move on? Woww, big question and no set answer that applies to everyone in every situation. <P>For ME, and I emphasize ME, it came down to a CONSCIOUS decision. I had asked every possible question I could think of. I had repeatedly asked the same questions over and over, forgetting the answers or trying to determine if the answers varied. The answers gave me no peace, no relief. No matter what the answer,,it STILL happened. No answer could erase that fact. I HAD to face that fact and decide where to go from there. I KNEW I wanted to keep the marriage IF he could be honest and we could work this out. He insisted he was being honest and wanted to rebuild. <P>For me, it was a conscious decision that from THIS day forward, I would NOT bring up the affair. I even marked the day on the calender so I could keep track of the day and my progress. I didn't tell him of my decision, I just did it. Yes, I did have a few backslides, but marked a new day and started over. After a while, the need to discuss it fades. Sure, I had triggers and "bad days" but it no longer became the focus of my thoughts.<P>We also started some little home projects. Projects we could work on together. It gave us something to discuss, plan and work on having nothing to do with affairs. A common goal. And a real sense of accomplishment of what WE could do together when we applied ourselves as a team. Hmm, kinda makes sense huh? Home project+rebuilding marriage. Now I'm not suggesting major home overhaul. LOL. That can get expensive and frustrating. Repaint and redecorate a room, add a patio, rearrange and organize the garage with places and shelves for everything, build a pond, a barbeque,,,,something! Don't know how to do that kinda stuff. There's instructions on the internet for doing anything. <P>Or plan weekend trips. There has to be places around your home that you haven't seen. Places you thought sounded kinda interesting that you haven't been. Plan some things together, whether it be a project or a trip. Gather around the kitchen table and share ideas, plans, guides. <P>You can do this. You can. If you want this marriage to survive and THRIVE, you need to make that decision to let it go, and start from here and now. You'll have backslides but take a deep breath, pull yourself back up and focus on that goal. <P>

I feel very guilty for writing to you when you are hurting so badly. I am a WS trying to decide whether or not I should tell my H. I lost a sister several years ago and know what pain is. I think whenever we lose someone - we go through the same basic cycles. Even though your WS isn't "gone" part of what you had before is gone - trust, etc. And that is what your are grieving for. <BR>I see so many similarities between all people's problems - alcoholics, drug addicts and WS are all addicts. The same basic recovery steps apply. The same goes for BS and survivors of tragic experiences and death. A similar pattern of the grieving process is experienced by all.<BR>For women, rehashing it over and over, thinking about it and talking about it, no matter how painful, seems to get it all out. I am not sure how men deal with things - but I suppose DEALING with it over and over helps you to move on versus not thinking about it and pusing it aside.<BR>I am no one to dole out advice at this point in my life. I feel like such a low life, but I hope some of this insight from a female perspective helps.

Cali,<P>I am always up for suggestions on things that can help, and reading books and this sight has helped save my sanity. I will definetelly order them and check them out. thank you<P>Cybil,<P>No we take our days off on WED adn THUR we both work on the weekends. I am doing better today, I feel like I have a little more energy and I feel like I am a little more willing to work on the marriage today. I don't get my hopes up though, these feeling better moments seem to be short lived, but I try to make the best of them. I just hope some day the feeling good will last a lot longer than just a moment or day. Thank you<P>JD,<P>Thanks JD, I am sorry you had a bad day as well, I am doing better today, hopefully you will have as well. I have been doing a lot of thinking about things, and I seem to be making more sense of things. I hope I can get through this soon. I will keep the time alone in mind, it is hard to plan ahead, because my mind seems to be stuck on the now. I am also so afraid to spend a day alone. I am afraid it might make things worse in my mind, like maybe I will feel better being by myself. I don't know, I will do it if I am still in this rut when my weekend comes, either way. Thanks for the help post on Recovery, thanks for looking out for me. <P>Nina, <P>Thank you so much for your help. You have been so helpful over the past few weeks, it is people like you that make MBs such a great place to come. Thanks.<P>SnL,<P>You made some very good points. I have been playing so many scenerios in my head and I have tried so many ways to rationalize everything, it helps when others give me different views to look at. I think you are correct on the casual sex in the restroom, the only thing that I am really concerned about is how convient they all happened 4 years ago, and nothing since. I am afraid she won't tell me something that happened more recently because she is afraid that would make a difference....it woulnd't. I will just have to come to the realization that I have to move on and not worry about it, it is something I can't control. Like JD says let god handle the things I can't control, and that is the route I will take. Thanks for your help SnL, you always amaze me. <P>Hi Twyla <P>Thank you, I will have to work on that. You actually named some of the stuff my C gave me as homework. The accomplishing at least one task a day, I haven't been real good with it, but I am starting to give it some effort. I like the idea of writing things we like about each other, it is hard to remember right now and this will be a good way to remind me. Thanks for the encouragement.<P>Myownme,<P>Thanks for your prayers, we definately need them. <P>Nearlycrzy,<P>I totally agree, I feel I need to make a councious decision, but I just can't get by all these feelings and concerns I am having. For the most part I have stopped asking the questions about the details of the As, but I just can't get past the possibility of there being more. No matter how much she reassures me, I just can't totally believe her. She says "there isn't anymore to tell you", and I discard her statement and tell her how important it is to tell all. I know I am harping on her, but I guess I need some reassurence that there really isn't more. I just don't want to be led into this more if she isn't being totally honest. It is very hard having delt with 3 months of "recovery" after learning about only one of the four As, and the whole time she was able to look me in the eye and tell me she has told me everything. <P>I like your idea on the calander and marking the last day we discuss the As. I do want to get past this, I just need to make that decision to move on. Hopefully I can do it, I am just very afraid to at this point. Thank you you all are giving me much to think about.<P>Lizie, <P>Don't feel guilty for posting to me, you belong her probably more than I do right now. Anyone who throws advice my way will be heard, I may not agree with some, but I always appreciate the help. You are in a situation that you can help many here. You can help explain how and why you keep it a secret. You can help explain what you were thinking when you started your A. I think you are very valuable to this BB for your imput on the WSs point of view on a lot of things. <P>Your thoughts on this are very inlightening, I think you are correct, at this point I do need time to "greive" or basically learn how to rationalize how and why and all the other questions that come up. I think I need to do the same thing I did the first time I delt with the 1 A and find a way to deal with it mentally and emotionally...I call it a way to write it off in my mind on the whys and hows. Thank you for your thoughts.<P>Thank you all for your support and encouragement, you guys are life savers. <BR>Eric

Dear Sem & KS, <P>Latecomer here but I wanted to express to the both of you how encouraging it is for me to see you both able to share your progress. All sides of it. You see, there are many of us out there going through similar. We don't all have the added benefit of our mates getting support from MB. I wish we could be we don't. <P>Knowing what you are experiencing is helping me and I wanted to let you know that. Feelings of despair and frustation make recovery hard. Yet, I sense that it is part of the normal pattern and therefore should be expected. <P>Nerlycrzy (not sure why I have such a hard time with your name), made some good suggestions. It is hard when one's normal tendency is to be negative. My SIL was told that her family (parent's & siblings) appear to be very negative and this can even affect one's health. There are many health issues in H's family. I tend to agree with her specialist (alternative medicine specialist). This person (not a doctor) has been treating my SIL (breast tumors and MS/ALS) including working on her emotional side. During her treatments many bad and suppressed incidents from her childhood have been surfacing leading to her releasing great amounts of anger, stress and toxins. I believe my H has similar pent up emotions as well and hope to get him that help soon. Part of the problem is that I need his cooperation and he is not as interested in participating as his sister and father. <P>Thinking positive and making a concentrated effort to do even little things to please our mates is vital to recovery. Easier said than done I believe and that is where I can see how the BS can also go into a depressive state during this time. <P>Again, thanks for being here. I wish you well on your continued recovery. <P>Mahalo,<BR>L. <P>

SEM,<P> What are friends for man? Besides I get valuable information from others advice to you as well. No, my days have not been much better. It seems one day is pretty good, then the next is bad again. SUCKS! lol. <P> Guess that is why it's called the rollercoaster huh?<BR>Wish I knew how to stop the dang thang...sigh.<P> Hang in E, things will get better. They have to at some point.<P> KS,<P> I liked your poem very much. <P> jd<P><p>[This message has been edited by jdmac1 (edited October 01, 2001).]

JD,<P>Thanks. I have actually been singing it in the shower. I find water very comforting and that's when i feel closer to God. So for the last couple of moths I have been singing love songs in the shower thinking of SEM. Then I saw your poem and decided to put all the words on paper. So I say to you Thank you for the insight . <P>Last night SEM said that he forgives me. I am so happy, but I don't think that I can forgive myself yet. It seems to early.<P>I hope your ok. I have been praying for you both Ya know.

Orchid,<P>Thank you, I know how reading others stories and how they are reacting and feeling has helped me bunches. I am glad to be here with KS, you and the other MBers that have helped us have probably saved our marriage, and for that I couldn't thank you all enough. Without the guidence and support from here, we probably would have been a lost cause. I can only hope to repay you all with my insight in the future, and if reading our threads helps, it sure makes me feel better to know that at least I am giving a little back by just being here. <P>Hey, I agree with the thought of it being hard not to be negotive if you are naturally a negotive person, I think that describes KS very well. I however, have always been the positive one of the bunch. I never let everyday stuff get me down. I usually am very patient and I am calm in seriouse situations, but that has all seemed to change since d-day. I think I lost all of my self confidence. I am very negotive about myself and our marriage anymore. I am no longer patient, I snap at the kids when the are getting into trouble or doing things that are borderline out of line, where I used to explain why they shouldn't do something, I snap at them and tell them to put it down or get out. I feel awful after doing these things, I know I have hurt their feelings lately.<P>I am feeling better these last couple of days though, like I actually want my marriage to work out. It is different, I am not just moving my lips when I say I want my marriage, now I actually feel like I want my marriage. I think things are looking up for me, only 3 weeks after d-day #2.<P>Ok I think I just made my thank you to Orchid really long and it kind of turned into an slight update. <P>JD, sorry to hear things aren't going great for you. Hopefully we can catch up to each other tonight or tomorrow night. How did your "thing" go today?

Hi Sem and KS,<P>Very similar sem. I am a lot like you in many ways. My disadvantage is that I am the W. But we can always benefit from encouragement. <P>Your post was fine. You 2 keep up being there for each other and the rest of us will rally around you two.<P>I am very happy to see your progress. <P>All the best to you both,<BR> <BR>L.