H's younger sister ran into a woman at a funeral home who expressed her sadness at hearing of my and H's separation. My SIL firmly denied any truth to this (she knows absolutely nothing!) and brought it up jokingly at a table with my H and MIL/FIL. My H denied any truth to this rumour. Problem 1?<P>Problem 2, this woman found out about our problems through a friend of MY MOTHER's! I confided in my mother and firmly asked her to respect my privacy. She, basically, has cried to anyone that will listen and believes that EVERYONE should know, she doesn't care how I feel. I've basically disowned her. I can never forgive her for violating my privacy. I thought I could trust my own mother. She has become dangerous with the knowledge. Basically, I never want to speak to her again. I explained to her many times that no one has to know, that I'm working on the recovery of my marriage, etc. She is so against any recovery and will almost try to prevent it. She also believes that my H is gone for GOOD. She reminds me continuously that I'm being STUPID if I think he's coming back!!!<P>That's it for now.<BR>

T<BR>Have you read Harleys SAA book? He says that keeping this a secret is not a good thing. Please read this book. <BR>Plan A is NOT " kiss butt" like I have seen people write. Plan A is no disrespectful judgements which is sarcastic remarks, jabs etc. Plan A is also no love busters which is pressure, constant calling and asking needy type of questions. Plan A is reading and getting stronger, working on you and only you.<BR>Your mother loves you and this is killing her. You need her. Give her the books you are reading so she can be on the same page as you are. The growth that MB provides, if used as intended, helps all of us in any relationship. Even that of a Mother / Daughter.<BR>Adultry hurts lots of people along the way. Don't discount your mother's pain.<BR>I know this ((T)) , I'm the mother too.<P>------------------<BR>Marry

Oh, Terrified...mothers can be ...argghhh... mothers. They are trying to protect their own. Not to say what she did was right or even acceptable, but being a mom, if my daughter was in your or my place, I would back her to the bitter end. And maybe she's worried about what people will think of her daughter...I don't know, just playing devil's advocate here. Tell her strait up that you don't want or appreciate her talking about your personal life, and you know she loves you, but stop! Don't know. My mother has also told everyone I know about my life, but, think about it, we have nothing to be ashamed of. WE DID NOTHING WRONG, except letting our marriages build a bit of dust. We are TRYING to right this. We are trying to better ourselves or we wouldn't be here, right? Maybe I'm off base here. Don't know. (how many times can I say "don't know" in one post?) I think she probably means well, and is trying to defend you? ... I don't know (oops). I don't think I was much help, was I?

I can somewhat relate to your feelings towards your mum right now. I have the same kind of feelings towards my dad.<P>The difference with me, is that I willingly told (far too) many people about my H's A's. It was necessary for me at the time, as I didn't know how else to deal with it all.<P>Now that H and I are in recovery, it is difficult to deal with my father's opinions of my H. I've asked him not to say anything to me, and he's abided by my wishes. But that doesn't keep him from talking to other people.<P>It's so true, that your mum has her own healing and grief to deal with right now. All she knows is that her daughter is hurting, and she HATES to see that.<P>You can't change your mum's actions, but you can try to help her to understand yours. That's all you can do. I wouldn't suggest disowning her altogether... but if she refuses to listen to you, then perhaps a parental plan B might be necessary?<P>Karen<BR>

Dear T, <P>Come on here, sit down. Now refocus a bit. The issue is your H's A. You know how it is affecting you. With this knowledge, understand that there are those who care and love both of you together and separately. <P>If you were your mom, how would you feel? Ever have a friend that was hurt? Didn't you want to come to their aid? Maybe not in the way your friend needed by in the only way you knew how? That kinda sounds like what your mother is doing. <P>Understand and refocus. When I began disclosing the A to close family and friends, one of the first things I did before telling was to ask that they respect my wishes. Then I explained that what I was about to tell them was very painful for me. This set the precedence for them to have sympathy for me. I needed their understanding before I hit them with the news. You see shock can do strange things to people. <P>With that in mind, those that did speak to H did so with the view to help. Some were better than others. All in all they all did a better job. Some were still yucky in their assistance but bless their hearts they tried. FIL for one is not a close dad type. His kids feel very distant from him. But even he tried and I have to give him credit for that. Even though he makes me angry at times because he is more of a big talker than a doer. <P>So reaces your problems. They may take on a different perspective now. The problem about people finding out about your H's A? No more than you learning about other Wss here. It is painful for all of us but yet if it is a secret, where is the motivation or benefit to learn?<P>Take Care, <BR>L. <BR>

Good morning...actually slept and didn't call H at all. One night down.<P>Thanks for your input. GT, I know I'm fairly emotional right now and not seeing clearly but shouldn't any love be about respect and trust? I've been betrayed by a man I thought would love me for the rest of my life. My mother has betrayed my trust too. How is my mother's betrayal any more right? All this talk about recovery and telling as few people as possible...hasn't she hindered my recovery (if there ever was a chance) even further?<P>EWO, Right now I feel like a huge failure as a woman and as a wife. I am alot to blame for the breakdown of our marriage but just didn't "see the light" until it was possibly too late. Society can be mean. Not everyone is a MB'er. My mother is a bitter woman and has said some fairly mean things as of late "get over it, you don't need him, come out with me, maybe you need to meet someone else, the only reason you still want him around is for status, etc". The list goes on. Oh well,<P>T25, I'm with you on Plan B. I just hope I, like you, move to recovery and live to tell the story. <P>O, Refocus? I'm so confused and numb at times, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I pleaded with my mother to respect my privacy for the purposes of aiding a potential recovery path. She doesn't believe in this BS as she puts it. She's often reminded me that if someone says they love someone else, they're gone for good. <BR>

I feel so differently than the rest of you. Everyone seems to think that its what the WS deserves, and so what about their feelings (I do NOT mean the posters on this thread, but some of the others on this same topic)<P>I think most WS's are in a pretty fragile place. <BR>So many of you express frustration about the fence sitting, and I think that if the WS feels strongly about this, its a big push to the other side. <P>Most WS's (and BS's too) are in a state of depression over the situation. And if you read the Harley books many WS's go through such severe depression that suicide seems like a solution.<P>My husband has already put a wedge between me and my parents, all of his family, and a good number of our friends. So basically everyone in my personal life has been taken away from me. If he continues with his threats against my professional life, the only outcomes I see are that I will be one of those suicide statistics or I will completely disassociate with my life with H and I will strongly pursue my life with OM.<P>This has been a complete shattering of my hopes for recovering with my H.<P>I hesitate to post this to you T, cuz I don't want to scare you. But if your H feels anything like I do, this is a really important issue.

the problem is not your mother, it is your H. He is the source of the problem, and the lie. These kinds of lies cannot and should not be honored by anyone. When you tell someone, you may ask and hope they do not tell, but the truth is they may very well do so and rightly so. There are good secrets and bad secrets, this is a bad secret. This is what you teach kids too. If you didn't want your mother to tell you shouldn't have told her, you have no right to burden any other human being with a bad secret. There are lots of kinds of bad secrets, I am sure you can think of some yourself, to see my point. <P>There is also no such thing as absolute privacy, humans are social creatures, and everything any of us do affects every single other human being to some degree or another, so we all have right to interfere in each others lives as we see fit. To avoid bloodshed, and other interpersonal difficulties, every culture, family, relationship has evolved it's own set of rules we label privacy. They work when everyone is on the same page, they break down when not. Clearly your H is not on the same page and it is his action that has upset all the privacy rules currently in force for you and those you relate too. Your mother is totally blameless, you put her in an impossible position, I suspect deep down you knew that as well, and are not particularly surprised, maybe even deep down secretly glad. Your anger at her is displaced anger at your H, for making you a party to his deception, and seperateing you from those you would seek succor from, as well as making you a party to protecting him from peer pressure and accountability. <P>That is what lies do terrified, now your H has seperated you from your mother too, how despicable. IMO you stop this runaway train by telling everyone, this is a family issue, and everyone needs to know. The fallout from that is healthy conflict, not the sick conflict the secret has now caused between you and mom (for just one example). This argument comes up from time to time, going public with the dirty little secret. How the family will be affected, who will interfere, blah blah blah. This is baloney, the truth is your H is an adulterer, has left his family, and no lieing deceit is going to change that. All those related to him and you (parents, siblings, friends, etc.) have an absolute right to know so they can adjust their relationship accordingly. How can anyone choose not to be his friend, to disown him (or put pressure on him) as a parent, to kick his [censored] (as a sibling) if they don't know. These are monstrous lies, they trick everyone into thinking about him differently than they would otherwise, this is not ok stuff terrified. Lies are the tool of satan, the truth sets you free, washes away the bad lies in the light of day. You might consider an attitude adjustment terrified, realize you are compromising your values, and assisting your H in gross manipulation of all in his life he supposedly respects. And tell your H for your sake you are not going to be a party to his deception, give him a chance to tell himself, but if he won't make it clear you will not be a part of his dirty little secret. Will he get mad? Probably, why do you care? It is his problem, if he blames you and stays away why would you want such a man in your bed? Follow the right path terrified, and whatever happens will be what should happen. <P>The reality is by keeping the secret you are trying to manipulate him back, by seeming to be on his side, helping him. That is not how reconcilliation occurs. It occurs cause both people look deep, decide who they are, and choose each other, not punish each other. If he is coming back he will, your telling makes no difference, and he will respect you a lot more for not letting him manipulate you. This is something the bs have a hard time understanding about ws. Work on yourself terrified, realize this is out of your hands, and be true to yourself. You have a long life ahead of you, and will be fine. If he doesn't come back it is his loss, you will find someone better. I think people always do if they learn from their mistakes, and do the psychological growth. The most attractive bs's are the ones who do this. Who quit the toxic dance, and become strong, not needy, who make it clear they are no longer going to be manipulated by fear, terror, anger, but that they forgive the ws, and want them back in a NEW marriage, on different principles.<P>As for the realites of telling, yes there will be fallout, family relationships change. Maybe for the better maybe for the worse. Depends on the people, someone suggested giving everyone the MB literature, I think that is an excellent idea. Also reminding folks that everyone lives in a glass house is useful too. But the bottom line terrified, is those who will punish or hurt you or your Husband are not worthy of a relationship anyways, this is a good time to find out the truth about those who are close to you. So you don't waste emotional resources on relationships (even close family) that are based on judgemental stuff, rather than loving stuff...ya know? It also gives you an opportunity to grow with your family and friends through a crisis, this is what builds long deep bonds. It is sorta like moving you find out who your friends really are, or are not. Life is always easy when it is easy, it is when it is hard we find out what really is true. Good luck.<P>btw As you know I am the ws. I asked my wife to not tell lots of family, so I too succumb to self-interest and conflict avoidance. But I know I am wrong. She has told some, and I would take no action regardless of who she tells. Some of the family I have no relationship with anyways, and makes no difference to me whether she tells em or not, just know they will make her life harder too, and she does not want to um........ reduce those relationships. I think she values them too much, I have a real problem with valuing relationships that one is fearful of losing if truth is known, I mean why have them anyways? IMO what one does (so to speak, but not actually in this manner). Is go to each individual, tell em the truth, and ask them if they have a problem with this, and adjust the relationship accordingly. Let the chips fall where they will. Yes that is hard when it is parents, children, or siblings, but these are the people who deserve to know the truth the most, radical honesty applies to more than just a spouse. It is the basis of any REAL relationship, without it, you just have phoney pictures. Personally I want to know what happens when crisis hits, and everyone is stressed to the max, and it is those who are worthy then I want to spend my time and emotional resources on in life, not the others. Sadly you find out some people, maybe even your mother, are not really worthy of your efforts, and you turn away forever, and invest your resources where real love grows, not the picture kind of love. However, I think you know the truth about your mom, and she didn't do anything wrong. It would have been better if she had given you the chance to tell, saying she cannot keep such a secret, but you can forgive her for not acting perfectly, this is hard stuff.<P>I will also say this should not be about vindictiveness, revenge, choosing sides. Such an attitude would work against you, but if you feel that way you should fess up anyways, cause H needs to know who you are. No, this is just about consequences, one of which lots of people are affected, and they all have a right to know. Affairs are never private, they are a public health issue (emotionally as well as physically) and should always be revealed, no exceptions. Will it be ugly? You bet, but sometimes going trough ugly, is how you get to beautiful (think corrective surgury here).

SnL --<P>If the world were perfect I might agree with some of your ideas. <P>But I think you need to filter all of this to personal situations.<P>Speaking personally, I do not have what it takes to face the accusations, the anger, the disappointment -- or all the other emotions that this "truth-telling" brings on.<P>And I think there are many circumstances where this isn't done in a passion for honesty -- but simply out of anger, vindictiveness, or just malicious gossip.<P>Sure, the truth is the truth. But I think there is an appropriate amount of truth that is "owed" to others OUTSIDE of your relationship.<P>To apply your standard SnL, should my 8 year old know all the TRUTH? Its simply not appropriate. Nor are the detail owed to friends or family. Radical Honesty is a concept that is applied to H and W -- not to everyone in the world.<P>You study human nature and relationships SnL -- don't tell me that you don't recognize the pain that results from this. And its not so simple that you just say well, those relationships must have had a flaw so begone with them....<P>

Hey Terrified ~ I can't postively tell you what you should do, only you can decide....but here's my thoughts:<P>By keeping this secret for your H, you are assisting your H in avoiding the consequences for his affair.<P>He chose what he is doing right now, and he's trying to avoid the negative aspects of that choice.<P>What you are doing is called ENABLING.<P>Should you run out and call the newspapers, shout the information from the rooftops, and sell your story to the latest neighborhood gossip? <P>No.<P>But you know, family members should know. They don't have to know the nitty gritty details. But they should know. YOU have the right to have someone to confide in. You have the right to have the support and love of your family members while he is doing this.<P>He's effectively isolated you - which keeps things under his control - and his agenda right now is purely selfish - damage control for himself.<P>How humiliated will your sister in law be when she discovers the truth and what a fool she looked like?<P>I agree with alot of what SNL said: Your anger is right now being inappropriately directed at your mom. Your mom is who she is, and ok, so she isn't supportive of recovery. But then again, how would YOU react if someone hurt your little girl? Her reaction is understandable.<P>Don't discuss it with her if you don't want to hear her advice...but don't be angry at her if she does what she always has done if you do discuss it with her. She is who she is, and you gotta face that reality along with the reality of your H and his own behavior.<P>IMHO, the next time someone brings up the subject, you shouldn't deny it. <P>Say: Yes, H and I are separated. <P>How much more information you offer is gonna have to be up to your own judgement.<P>If you can, call Steve Harley and ask him for his advice. He'll be able to give you a far better opinion than mine.<P>I can tell you that in my situation (I had not found MB yet) I did tell. And as a result, my H was not outcast from his family, in fact, they did everything they could to make sure that they objected to his choices, but that he was still loved.<P>They put their real support and love behind me. My inlaws were absolute SAINTS during their son's affair.<P>My H continued to deny that he was having an affair, and constantly told them that I was nuts.<P>Until, (again, disclaimer here, I didn't know MBs and I don't know if this is a Steve Harley recommendation!) I found a number of emails between H and OW. I forwarded those emails to my attorney (it put me over the edge and I filed for divorce) and to his family, with the comment: I have to divorce your son and this is why. I am not casting off your son without extreme cause, and I am NOT casting out his family. You will always be my children's grandparents.<P>And THAT was the beginning of the end. They told my H what they had read. There was no more denial.<P>You see, until the affair was exposed to the light of day, my H continued with his outrageous behavior. It took another 9 months and one failed recovery before we actually reconciled. But that was the real turn around, when he could no longer protest to his family that he wasn't doing what he was doing. <P>If they had been less supportive of me, and turned more of a blind eye like many parents do, maybe it might not have worked out. But to this day I bless my inlaws for their reaction, their support, and love of both of us. I am convinced it was the FAMILY reaction that was a major factor is waking him up and bringing him home.<P>BTW, Lexxxy...my kids did know that their dad was having an affair. They had a right to know why their lives were being ripped apart.<P>I was careful, and I had them in counseling and therapy. They still go. I didn't tell them that their dad was a bad man, or try to turn them against him. In fact, we prayed together for him every night. But they did know. And I don't regret it. I don't keep secrets from my kids like that. <P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Yes, lexxy it is more complicated than a short post can do justice too. And I do think delivery (which I only indirectly addressed) is important. Also this applies to adults, children are owed honesty too, but that has to be consisten with their maturity.<P>I do believe in radical honesty, actually I always have, it just is hard to put into practice. I had no real issue with my w knowing I was falling in love with ow, but she would have reacted badly. Rather than trying to figure out how this was happening, and what it means about me, and our marriage....she instead would do as bs always do, react in their own self-interest, and become coercive. I know I am unusual, my core belief about human relationships (even as a child) was that I wanted no coercion, wanted people to choose me cause they wanted me, not cause they owed me. I think this is essentially radical honesty and why I am pulled so strongly by the principle. This is the only way to eliminate manipulation from human relationships. No one can act toward another honestly, unless they know there is to know about that person...right? <P>This is why I argue vows are meaningless. We all know vows cannot gaurantee love, and in my world the biggest LB my wife does is tell me she will stand by me cause of vows. I don't want her vows, I don't want anyones vows, I want to be chosen cause they cannot not choose me. I don't want it to be a decision, I want it to be oneflesh, I believe in the mystery, and I believe it is only through feelings one can find in-love. I am willing to live the rest of my life alone if I cannot live that way. I thought this was how everyone felt. I did not realize many people are willing to accept love as a contact, a decision, this is so foreign to me, I still do not really understand it. How can you live intimately with someone, share your soul, be totally bare and vulnerable, never gaurd, sleep in their bed, as a contract? Doing so only if they work at meeting your needs, stay cause you promised you would, only I don't want to be here. It is monstrous. I did this for 28 years, it has almost killed me emotionally, trying to make "decide" to love work. <P>When I married, I was totally honest with her, we had a rocky long-term relationship. I told her before we married if we could not find in-love we would pay a price one day. People can say what they want about me, and I am not good at art, or music, or sports, or much of anything, but I am perceptive, and I know why people do what they do, I always have, like breathing to me, is effortless. My error was even at a young age, (started dating her at 22) after a time I discerned the issues, but I didn't have the tools to understand the detail, or why, or even understand my perceptual skills, I had no experience in assessing marital circumstances, and I made a fatal mistake. I married out of duty, I "decided" to love. I did so cause I wanted so badly for it to be true, I loved her, but it was the wrong kind of love. It was the caring kind, the history kind (we dated 5 years), and it was the vows and committments I made to her during the courtship, and one of my own weaknesses, the one that comes with perceptual skills, I wanted to rescue her, to fix her life. But I wasn't in-love and should not have married no matter how devastated she was going to be (she threatened suicide twice, whenever I tried to end it). We had talked about these things, she knew the issues too, saids she would change if I loved her, but knew I didn't fit her in some important ways, she was not completely honest with. I knew she wasn't in love with me either (couldn't be cause I wasn't with her, cause in-love is NOT a decision, it is a fitting, so my instincts were sound). So here we are, 1/2 a lifetime later paying the price (as are our kids) for not being radically honest. We had no business getting married. So now we try again, but this time it is to a different standard, it will be honest, and it will be in-love. Settling for a contract is more attractive at this point too for all the usual reasons, age, history, family, societal expectations, financial issues, and fear of change, fear of being alone...so I may give up, I may settle, but if I do it will be an informed, albeit sad choice, but at least will be honest, and she can choose as well, being fully aware of my honesty.<P>The point of all this lexxy is how severe the repercussions are of not practicing radical honesty. At all junctures of ones life. Families regularly let each other down under crisis, and that is cause they do not really know each other, and therefore have erroneous expectations. Maarriages do not exist in a vacuumn and we all have a vital interest in the circumstances of each others marriages. Families certainly do cause they are investing time and emotional resources in each other they may very well not have if they knew all the facts, how can this be ok? Should we all hire private detectives to spy on each other because we assume people are only going to be forthright with us when it suits them? Take even a trivial example....one does not know w is having serious marital difficulties so is vulnerable, and some nice guy sensing some emotional thingy befriends her, next thing you know you have an affair. Shouldn't she have told him I am having serious marital difficulties, and may be inappropriately vulnerable? Or better yet, why hide it, maybe should let everyone know, so people can respond accordingly. What about a mil, who is on record as going to disown any spouse that has a affair, well does lieing about it make it not so? Why not just let her make her choice accordingly, and let the family dynamics adjust. The outcome may even be good, who knows....the point is there are ripples lots of ripples, and it is impossible to predict the outcomes, many of which could be very good. The issue is do we value honesty in relationships, or manipulation, and secrecy is the biggest manipulation of all. I vote for honesty.<P>This does not mean one blurts out the complete bare truth without explanation the moment it is known. There are indeed ways to reveal things that are appropriate. My issue is with concealment solely for the reason to avoid consequences, or manipulate others (such as denying them their choice of how to interact with you).<P>lexxy....If the world were perfect I might agree with some of your ideas.<P>snl....The mother of all rationalizations, the world is only as perfect as we make it by each of our individual choices one by one. I am self-serving too lexxy, and I will never pass judgement on another, not even the hitlers, and psychopaths of the world. But I do admit my self-serving to myself, and try not to make it my reason for choice. And I do try to discern the principles we live under so as to apply them. Being on MB has been an enormous help to me in understanding in detail what marriage, love, bonding is, and where I am in those regards. I had kinda shutdown from w, that is a violation of radical honesty, and I know understand was one of the things troubling me the most. I can't live like that. But she does have trouble with my doing it, I talk about things she does not want to deal with at all. Radical honesty has always been one of the troubles between us. It is far and away my most important EN. So much so that if there is the slightest thought on the part of a marital partner that they are passionate about me, I want em to leave, now. I know she has those doubts, heck she even told me for years I don't measure up to how she thinks her H should be, but she wouldn't leave me, that is what vows do for you, she should have left long a go. So should I, cause deep down, I had given up long ago. If I had realized I was emotionally divorced from her, I would have told her, but I didn't quite understand, I still thought marriage was the piece of paper, I didn't realize it is the condition of the heart, the paper means nothing, is just a financial document. So I erred, I let myself love another while still bound by a document, I won't do it again, and would have divorced her first had I understood, but I didn't, and now like you, I pay the price to set the books straight. There is nothing ever wrong about love, it is a gift from God, that we can do so. But there is duty and obligation too, and I violated those, so here I am.... again cause I violated the concept of radical honesty. I should have dealt with my marriage the moment I knew I could no longer live like this forever, and that was 4-5 years before the A.<P>lexxy...But I think you need to filter all of this to personal situations.<P>snl...Only in delivery, how truth is revealed. For example, the moment an A is revealed, you don't get on the phone and tell everyone. You take time to comprehend (the spouses) to discuss, to regain balance.... this may take days, maybe a few weeks, then you tell, ideally the ws tells, they are the transgressor, but bs or ws, the telling is done, in a way satisfoctory to both, as long as not deceptive.<P>lexxy...Speaking personally, I do not have what it takes to face the accusations, the anger, the disappointment -- or all the other emotions that this "truth-telling" brings on.<P>snl...This, as you know, is self-serving. Sometimes we have to face the music in life lexxy, it rarely kills us, humans are remarkably resilient, and sometime the fear is worse than the outcome, and more damaging. I suspect the secret has taken an enormous toll from you, not just as obvious though. But hopefully one has some time to psychologically prepare, to do the preliminary work, that can help a lot. And turn a disaster, into a personal growth experience. You are a good woman lexxy, God loves all his children. You have made some errors of judgement, including possibly choosing your husband as a mate. A question all bs and ws have to deal with. I suspect you may suffer concerns about guilt, or others judging you by guilt. I personally think guilt is useless, and debilitating, I refuse to feel it, or let anyone coerce me with it. I know what I did and why, my concern is simple, what to do about it, there is no role for guilt. You must do the same, all ws must. We all have an obligation (I think) to make emotional reperations depending on the circumstances, but we are not property, and we do not owe anyone anything. No human being does, no one can owe anyone anything emotionally, only contracturally, and I refuse to accept marriage is a contract. It is annoying when family and friends act in a judgemental rather than supportive fashion, but that says more about their failings then it does yours. Do not accept any judgements but your own. And politely, or forcefully, as needed, seperate the grain from the chaff in your personal relationships. Those who would choose sides are not wise at all, and it nay be illuminating to find that out. Why would you want to have a relationship with any friends or family who would condemn you, or choose sides? Being supportive is one thing, and is human nature to some extent, but those who speak ill of either you (or your H) need to at the very least, remove themself from the fray until they learn how to behave.<P>lexxy...And I think there are many circumstances where this isn't done in a passion for honesty -- but simply out of anger, vindictiveness, or just malicious gossip.<P>snl...You bet, and that is my point, let all reveal who they are under stress, that is where you find the truth. You must decide, but your H has been revealed for the mean-spirited, controller he is. It is doubtful your marriage will ever be more than a function of how well lexxy meets H expectations. For some that is ok, for me it is not. I find the actions bs take when confronted with this crisis (and ws too) very telling about how good the marriage will ever really be, again another vote for radical honesty. Your H was being radically honest, he did warn you, now you get to decide whether you can deal with what he revealed about himself. The price you paid for this knowledge is the isolation and condemnation you are going to recieve. Is it worth it lexxy? You made the choice ya know. And by not telling earlier you placed yourself in this position, there is that pesky radical honesty thing again. Had you come clean earlier, in your own way, possibly may have been better. No one said life as a ws is easy, it is hard, cause you are upsetting your worldview, the bs is hurt, but they have no crisis of conscience, they seek to preserve, the ws seeks change, is the harder road. The ws in a sense tries to keep their options open. The most significant one being the ability to continue interaction with the op, because we need to work that out to fully understand ourself and why we might choose to reconcille, rather than be coerced back into the marriage. This comes at a price, and you are paying that price lexxy. I did too, but I paid it knowingly.<P>lexxy...Sure, the truth is the truth. But I think there is an appropriate amount of truth that is "owed" to others OUTSIDE of your relationship.<P>snl...Then what is the rule lexxy? How do you differentiate proper from self-serving in deciding? That is the vexing trouble with principles, they are absolute. The rule is, if you interct with someone, and you know something important that they don't, you must tell em, it is a very simple rule. Most principles are simple. Your suggestion that you get to decide just means everyone does what they want, a much more complex outcome don't ya think? And no way at all for trust to exist in human interactions. One can always find a "reason" to conceal truth from someone, and the reasons are always revealed as self-serving. Meaning you do not want to deal with the percieved negative consequences. That I say is wrong, for sound psychological reasons. But I also suggest that the truth has an interesting way of generating unpredictable and unthought of positive ripples.<P>lexxy...To apply your standard SnL, should my 8 year old know all the TRUTH? Its simply not appropriate. <P>snl...No, not now. She does need age appropriate honesty, and the truth when she is an adult, cause this is now part of her history too, and she needs to know that in her adult life.<P>lexxy...Nor are the detail owed to friends or family. Radical Honesty is a concept that is applied to H and W -- not to everyone in the world.<P>snl...There is nothing special about H/W it is just part of the continuum of human relationsips, and yes radical honesty applies to all, by the standards I said. Does everyone need to know the details of your sex life with spouse? No, that is relevant only to you. Do others need to know your H hits you (as an example)? Absolutely yes. This is a family issue, not solely a marital issue. Infidelity is essentially a community issue, it affects everyone, family, friends, social circle, even workplace and general community. <P>lexxy....You study human nature and relationships SnL -- don't tell me that you don't recognize the pain that results from this. <P>Snl....I do recognize the pain lexxy, and it is terrible pain. One should use compassion and good sense in dealing with it. But pain is part of life, and more damage is done avoiding it than facing it and giving it a chance to heal IMO. There is this disturbing implication that if one does not know a secret it somehow does not count, is rendered impotent. I disagree, a secret kept causes more damage in a million subtle ways than a secret revealed methinks. And saying we keep them cause it is not a perfect world, and the repercussions too undesireable, is the same reason we mistreat each other, when we look the other way rather than get involved. It will never be a perfect world, but we can improve it by taking a stand and doing the right thing whenever we can. <P>lexxy...And its not so simple that you just say well, those relationships must have had a flaw so begone with them....<P>snl...Why not? It is that simple. If the truth, revealed in an appropriate manner distances rather than helps a relationship, than somebody was using somebody...right? Plus the relationship never really existed, it was a picture, maybe a pretty picture, but not real, and will vanish the moment the light of day shines on it....why worry about preseving a picture? <P>Isn't that what you are saying lex (and I don't want to be mean), but you are using the unknowing support of family and friends cause you fear the truth will turn them from you? But you are the same lexxy are you not? Why do you want the support of someone who is only there for the phoney lex? Not the real lex? Maybe what you really fear is you will lose your courage and stay in a marriage you really deep down do not want, if even more pressure is brought to bear on you. It is tough being a ws, you are truly alone (well unless your H is beating you daily or some such awful stuff). You are the different monkey lex, your very existence is threatening to everyone. There is no easy road, if you want to leave, think you must, the way is through the fire...you can't just run, you must face the music to have a future, it all part of the unfolding of the truth about your marriage. My advice (and what I do), I am completely honest about my feelings, and how the marriage must look to for me to stay, the emotional swings are enormous, and I made myself a promise, if it doesn't work I am going to end it. I don't concern myself with what anyone else thinks. I won't argue with em either, it is my life, and who I give it to for the rest of it I have left has to be my enthusiastic choice. I am not saying argue with folks, just tell em you must decide, and don't get in useless debates over what you should or should not do, or how good marriage is or isn't. Only you can assess that, no one else has to sleep (so to speak) with your H everyday, only you, and if you don't want to be there, it is done. Tell em if they want to be supportive you appreciate it, but if they don't be best to just keep some distance for awhile. Even family.<P>And this is the story of many marriages as well, they are nothing but empty shells, why preserve them? Fix em, or end them, that is how we deal with all illnesses...don't we? (well like removing cancers or something, not a good analogy, but you get the point)<P>I have some other things I have been meaning to post to ws in positions like you (and I) and a few others. Hope to do so in a few days. Good luck<BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited October 03, 2001).]

Wow, what a thread. I am learning a lot. I gues we all need to put a lot of thought into who, how, what, when we tell!<P>((((T)))) (I don't really like your user name, I'll just use the initial if you don't mind.)<P>It's very clear that there are varied opinions, I'm learning from them all, but I still wanted to state mine in case it helps:<P>on Problem 2:<BR>You are ready to work on and improve your relationship with your husband and he has broken vows. But your mother has broken promises and you "basically disown" her? This doesn't seem quite fair. I agree, she has NOT supported you. She did do things you specifically asked her not to do, and it sounds like being around her and her comments will make it harder for you to continue to do what you have decided is best. I think you need to plan A her - tell her your needs in that relationship and see whether she meets them and maybe give her Harley books if she'll read them so she can understand your plan. Then plan B her if needed - Say "I love you, Mom, but if you can't avoid behavior X, I can't be around you." In this case I think behavior X anything that discourages your recovery. But give her another chance first -explain your boundaries. You really don't want to cut her out of your life if you don't have to when she can support you in child care etc. and you need support now! OTOH some of the comments you reported from your mother - well, you don't need to subject yourself to that!<P>Problem 1 is really a problem too, which most posters here seem to have ignored. your H is not even admitting what he has done. Fog really makes them give strange reasons for what they are doing, but he's pretending he's not even doing it??? There should be no problem with you saying "we are temporarily separated." since it is the truth, and will become more and more obvious.<P>This piece of advice is the one I really want you to hear:<BR>Don't make any decisions too fast. I know you've (mostly) gotten over the shock of DDay, but the move out is a whole new level of abandonment of the marriage by the WS and you are probably in shock again. Be careful of yourself. Like Lexxy said, telling people is something you can't undo. (I only wish I could...)<P>Listen T, you were not a perfect wife. No matter how much you do, you will never be perfect. However, I am willing to bet that you were better than you think right now. So stop beating yourself up. And I bet you'll be a better wife from now on if H gives you a chance. BUT the hard part is, he may not. You can still grow from this, and you need to do what is right for you.<P>(Lexxy) I hurt for you. But even if I never tell anyone else about WH, I will tell my kids sometime, maybe when they get engaged. This is NOT going to another generation if I can help it.

Hi, T!<P>First of all, don't stop speaking to your mother. IMHO, she was wrong and betrayed your trust, but you can't change that.<P>I told my mother Robert left. No more. And asked her not to share it. Told my brother the same thing. He honored my trust, my mom did not.<P>I was angry and I told her. And I shared no more with her. I learned a lesson. Lots of people are like this and I should have known mine would be. "I'll honor your request as long as I think it's reasonable and I don't think doing something else is better!" <P>But I did NOT stop speaking to her. I absolutely refused to talk to her at all about Robert, my marriage, my emotions, my feelings. When she'd ask, I told her it was because I didn't feel I could trust her with personal information, but that we could go shopping or talk about anything else. I never yelled or shunned her. She pushed (she's like that), but I stood strong. My brother said my mother respects me more now than at any other time in my life.<P>You do what is best for you. Tell if you need to tell, don't if you don't want to. I do not believe that not telling everyone is a "get out of jail free" card for the WS. Trust me, a recovering WS has plenty to deal with. I did not NOT tell to protect my H, nor because I was ashamed, simply because I am more private. I do not feel it was a violation of honesty; one's personal life is just that and no one is under any obligation for the sake of "honesty" to discuss things they may deem are no one else's business. It changes your mother's life somewhat, granted, but the marriage is between you and your H. It is your decision who should know what.<P>I do not feel it's displaced anger either. The situations are separate and can be addressed separately. You are angry with your H for the affair and with your mum for betraying your trust. Betrayal of a confidence is a serious thing, with or without an affair, and the subject matter makes no difference.<P>But, go easy on her. I had to admit, and I believe you might too, that it was not contrary to my mom's nature to behave this way and she didn't expect it to change our relationship. I doubt it's the first time yours has done what SHE thought was best instead of what you wanted, now, is it? So, you do need to take that into consideration as well. If you KNOW the type person she is, aren't you somewhat responsible as well for simply asking her to go against her nature?<P>She's your mom. Define your boundaries and go from there. <P>As far as Plan A is concerned, you've gotten good advice. You can tell or not and still be in Plan A. What you DO need to do is work on you, find your strengths and stop letting his every word and move direct your life. You can do this, I know you can.<P>Hang in there, Honey. (And call your mom to say "Hi"!) <P>Love,<P>Lori

While I rarely agree with SNL on anything, I think he is dead right on this one. Deceit is what caused the situation in the first place and MORE deceit will certainly not solve the problem. It simply muddies the water further. If this bothers the WS, my advice would be to stop doing things that you feel a need to HIDE. That is logic 101.<P>Someone else mentioned that exposing the affair would "push" the WS towards the OP. Nonsense. They would be running. If the TRUTH causes the WS to RUN AWAY [because it most certainly is a CHOICE that is entirely in the WS' control] then that is probably the best place for the WS - AWAY. Again, it's not up to the BS to assist the WS in hiding from the consequences of thier actions, nor should they help the WS hide out.

Hi Terrified.<BR>I don't agree with all SNL has to say either. (didn't take the time to read his second post as I'm on a time frame here, but will go back to it later.) I haven't told anyone around here about my H's affair. Only two other people, one from this board whom I have talked to on the phone, and my friend south of Chicago who has gone through some of this same stuff know anything about this besides my counselor. I haven't told because I feel personally, that it would adversely affect our relationship with the family, friends, and people I go to church with and with H if we do completely reconcile. Not because I have enabled him. I'm having a difficult time dealing with this whole thing with him, and I don't feel I could deal with their responses too. <BR>Once in church our pastor told us it is a sin to take on feelings of anger towards others for something that has been done to them. It is in the bible and I'm not good at quoting, but I am guilty of this myself. Like If this happened to my sister, I would probably hate her H. That's not my place. It has to do with judging people. We are not to do it, although we all do. I have been working on this particular sin for awhile and have at least learned to recognize it in myself and I now have some personal revelations when I do it that I would never have done before. The fact is, we are all human and it happens. In SAA Harley also says to be careful with whom you show this information. My parents are dead. My sisters have their own problems and probably wouldn't be supportive. My H's mother, and siblings already have what I would call near nonexistant relationships with each other so there wouldn't be any support there either. My situation would be different if I had a supportive family. You need to do what YOU need to do. I feel for you. Continue to vent and get it out in a safe place, which is here.<BR>Mikkey<BR> I too, would be angry with my mother if she had done that. But, you probably need her. One broken relationship is enough to deal with at a time. Follow some of the suggestions written above. I feel for you, its like being betrayed twice I agree.

Oh sure...its simple to say "ITS WHATS RIGHT" <BR>The truth is on your side.<BR>But that doesn't mean its gonna help your marriage.<BR>(how many times have you seen the "you wanna be right or you wanna be married?" quote?)<P>Anybody here make a list of Pros and Cons when you're trying to reach a decision? I did it when I was trying to <BR>decide what to do about my marriage. <P>And one of the Pros was to maintain the relationships with friends and family. Well last week that turned into a Con.<P>So my H can have all his friends and family supporting him, but now he can't have me -- and thats what he really wanted.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lexxxy:<BR><B><BR>Anybody here make a list of Pros and Cons when you're trying to reach a decision? I did it when I was trying to <BR>decide what to do about my marriage. <P>And one of the Pros was to maintain the relationships with friends and family. Well last week that turned into a Con..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It turned into a "CON" because of thier knowledge of *YOUR* actions, not because your husband told them. You are trying to blame your H for the natural consequences of *YOUR* actions, which is wrong. To put it another way, your argument is with the TRUTH, not your H, yet you are blaming HIM for it. Wrong target. If you are angry about thier reaction to your affair, your argument is with the person in the mirror, not him. Again, their reaction is due to *YOUR* behavior and you have only yourself to blame for that. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So my H can have all his friends and family supporting him, but now he can't have me -- and thats what he really wanted</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>hmmmmmm, if you CHOOSE to punish him for the fallout from your own affair, that is your choice, but you can't blame him for that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana114:<BR><B> It turned into a "CON" because of thier knowledge of *YOUR* actions, not because your husband told them. You are trying to blame your H for the natural consequences of *YOUR* actions, which is wrong. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jumping in here for a brief comment because this is one of the things that irks me.... frequently everything that happens AFTER an affair is somehow always blamed back on the affair. Now, I'm not saying that having an affair is not free of true repercussions within the relationship of the spouses, but come on, not everything and every reaction that happens afterward can be pinned on the WS/affair.<P>It wasn't Lex's actions that H's family and friends were told.. it was a choice that her H made. Everything that is done or said after D*Day by the BS cannot be blamed back on the original actions of the WS. They are separate actions...good, bad or otherwise. Everyone makes choices on how to handle a situation, any situation. Some make good choices, others make major errors. And each choice/action is independent with it's own set of consequences.<P>A mirror example.. for about 6 months after DDay, my H displayed constant anger. <BR>Twice he drove recklessly at crazy high speeds in and out of traffic with all of us in the car because he was having a "difficult moment" dealing with his anger. If he had wrecked the car and killed any of us or any innocent people in oncoming traffic, would that be because of the *TRUTH* of my actions, and not the actions of my H? <P>There's more abhorrent things like this I could list here of his actions, that are even worse, that I certainly am not to blame for. They were *HIS* actions.<P>[This message has been edited by Waiting2Exhale (edited October 03, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Waiting2Exhale (edited October 03, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waiting2Exhale:<BR><B> Jumping in here for a brief comment because this is one of the things that irks me.... frequently everything that happens AFTER an affair is somehow always blamed back on the affair. Now, I'm not saying that having an affair is not free of true repercussions within the relationship of the spouses, but come on, not everything and every reaction that happens afterward can be pinned on the WS/affair.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Embarrassment caused by the affair should logically be blamed "back on the affair." But I would agree with you if this knowledge was told in a vindictive manner for the sole purpose of humiliating the WS, however, we are talking about sharing a family issue with the family for the main purpose of support. To deny the BS that comfort that comes from this support is especially pernicious, it is asking the BS to not only live with an affair, but to SHUT UP about it. No thanks! <P>And what is even more pernicious is to punish the BS for not participating in the WS' attempt to hide from the consequences of thier behavior. Again, it is not up to the BS to protect the WS from the consequences of his/her behavior. The thing that is so embarrassing is knowledge of the affair and that is something that was caused by the WS, not the BS. <P>So, I am sorry you are "irked" but it irks me when I see WS' who destroy the lives of others and then expect them to shut up about it, especially at a time when they need their friends and family the most.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waiting2Exhale:<BR><B> If he had wrecked the car and killed any of us or any innocent people in oncoming traffic, would that be because of the *TRUTH* of my actions, and not the actions of my H? <P>There's more abhorrent things like this I could list here of his actions, that are even worse, that I certainly am not to blame for. They were *HIS* actions.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Of course your spouse is responsible for his actions, just are you are responsible for yours. That is my point. Blaming you for the above actions of your spouse would be as irrational as blaming him for your affair.<P>