Indy,<P>Things here are going ok. STL finally had a chance tonight to take a break. He's been working around the clock on a special project and of course there is his travel. That's why he has not been around MB much for a while.<P>You know Indy, like Orchid I am not convinced with your words. I see a man who is very hurt and trying to protect himself. You say that you are not depressed but you express the feelings of a depressed person.... you say that you are not worth anything, that your W killed you, that you were a bad father and husband, and that you have no feelings. Sorry Indy, but those are not the words of a man who is alright. You are hurt and I still would place a bet on the depression. <P>I saddens me so that you will not seek the counseling and medical help that could pull you through this whole. You and your children are a family. Millions, upon millions of parents the world over raise children without the other spouse living in the home. You can share care of your children with your wife. <P>If I recall, you have talked in the past how your wife did not really seem to find the time for the kids. Now you are going to leave them with her? And what do you know of the OM except that he is morally deficient?<P>Please forgive me, but could this be a manipulation to show your wife how much she has hurt you? "You have hurt me so much that I don't feel anyting. I have no family. I'm a failure and not worth anything. I'm going to get stationed in a war zone (read suicide) because the man I was is dead."<P>Indy, if you do this, you are ultimately giving up on the ones who need you the most... your children. I wish you could talk to STL about what that is like. His father walked out on him and his mother and sisters when STL was 13. He has not seen or heard from his dad since then. The pain and damage that was done to STL and his sisters still plays in their life today. <P>More resently, STL's x-wife walked out on him and his children. Today his children are paying a heavy price for this. His 22 year old daughter has been in and out of drug treatment programs, 4 times since she was 14 and she still has a drug/alcohol problem. Last weekend we checked his son (14) into a residential treatment center for (not drug related). His D-11 is severly depressed and borderlined suicidal. Why? Because his x-wife had to "find herself" with her OM. And today, 5 years later, she is leaving the OM because he is not her "soul mate" after all. Oh gee aren't we surprised?<P>You have built a fantisy in your mind that your kids will just move on. Re-read what I wrote about STL's kids..... you can pretty much expect yours to go through the same thing. Is this really what you want for them? Do you really not care enough for them to want more? <P>Do you know the one thing that is pulling STL's two younger kids through all of this? It is that their father, STL, is the one anchor in their life. He is the one parent who cares enough about them to always be there for him. Now that we are married they have me too. But you know what? As much as I do for those kids, as much love and attention as I give them, they really only want one thing. Their mother back and their lives whole.<P>Your wife has been the unstable one through all of this? It seems that leaving your children with her would be very much like STL leaving his children with his X-wife.<P>I care about you Indy. I hear the pain in what you say. And I hear the depression. But you are not listening to me and all of the people here who can see it too. How I wish I could just shake you and make you really hear. If you do what your are contemplating, the day will come when you will regret it. Please give yourself some time before doing this.<P>You are a good man Indy but you are hurting and don't know how to ease the pain. Reach out and get the help you need.<P>Z

INDY_357,<P>Have you asked unbias third party opinion?. At time I want to listen to my WS & give up, she look at me like I have contagious disease. However my D need me now than ever I enjoy time with them as much as I could and give them lasting memory whatever happen next. They understand that and we are closer than ever, clinging to each other.<P>Hang in there and wait and get help quick.

Hi Indy,<BR>We don't mean to beat you over the head with all this, but the KIDS! I am BS/F. I left my 1st H with my 3 little kids 18yrs ago because I felt it was best for them. He re-married, the kids called W Mom and me by my first name at W's request. I didn't do anything about that. I saw my kids on my weekends and pretty much stayed out of the way so they could have their happy little family. Ex-H divorced again....When my kids were older, their one question to me was, why didn't you fight for us. Why did you let Dad's wife take over? I never realized it hurt them....BADLY. I thought I was doing the right thing. Please..hind sight is 20/20! Roe

Indy,<P>I can understand where you are at, but I will give you my perspective from the child's standpoint, as did Nyneve. My parents were D when I was about 1 1/2 years old. My "dad" did the visitation thing for a few months, and then decided that Mom would be better off building a new life without him around. He thought things would go smoother for "everyone". I went throughout most of my life, until the age of 37, wondering three things...who my father was, why I wasn't good enough for him to stick around and get to know me, and would he be proud of who I turned out to be. I have been on both sides of the coin, both as the child and as the father whose kids are now living a thousand miles away, not by my choice.<P>I can tell you, from experience, just as you say you will never again be with another woman, those children will never have another "Dad" or "Father", no matter what you feel. My kids have someone else in their lives, but we still talk 1-2 times a week, and trust me, they know when I don't call cuz I hear about it!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>No matter who your wife is with now, or five years from now, those kids are YOURS..they know it and will never let go of that!! If you simply "disappear into the fog", do you think that will really help them? One loss, of their immediate family is going to be hard enough, but to couple that with losing the unconditional love of their true father will be something that will leave a hole in their hearts and lives for years to come. It did me...right up until the age of 37, when with my Mom's help, she found him. I was then able to contact him and face him after all those years. (That, in itself is another story.)The upshot is, no matter how you feel about the WS and OM, those kids need and love you, their DAD!! I know how you are feeling, but I can tell you from experience, you are the only one that they can turn to for truth and unconditional love now. Your WS and OM will sabotage and most likely cover up many things to the kids for many years until, someday one or all of them will find you again, seeking answers to the questions that will plague them. I implore you....this is NOT the best thing for your kids...I KNOW!! So do a great many others...the issue of your M and your kids are not one and the same!!! Your WS may know what she wants, but those kids want YOU!! <P>Please, think about it! For YOU and for them!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Indy:<P>I'm new/old here and I can completely sympathsize with your plight. My best advice is simply: DON'T DO IT!<P>I have walked the same road as you. My ex had her A in early '99 and disclosed it to me in late '99. Of course, everything was my fault! I too, worked odd shifts and was often home late. I was told I wasn't a good provider but was a good father to my two kids.<P>Basically, I was told at the time, that ex's A was as a result of my actions, not of hers and me, being the frightened soul I was, chose to believe that.<P>That is, until I went to therapy and through talking to a therapist that no one deserved the treatment that I was getting. Sure, I may not have been the "perfect" husband but that still was no excuse for my ex to run to an OM.<P>Ex and I divorced in '01 after she met second OM while we were supposedly "working" on the marriage. Both ex and I are now remarried and I am relishing the second chance at happiness.<P>Ex has full custody of the children and I have visitation rights every second weekend. My children are adjusting but it is an ongoing process. It hasn't always been smooth, there's been plenty of heartache all around from my children's side and from my new W. But together we are working it all out.<P>If you are out of sight, you will not be out of your children's mind. They will wonder though, why their dad left them. They will think it is THEIR fault.<P>Give custody of the kids to your ex if you feel you must but don't give up your parental rights. They are your children to and you have a say in their life. Your marriage may have failed but that does not make you a failure.<P>If you are worried about confusion it may cause them, come up with a visitation plan that you -- and they -- can live with. Even once a month on a Saturday and make sure that time counts.<P>Your post reached me when I saw it. It made me want to scream YOU ARE WORTH IT!!!!!<P>Please take this time you have to really think about it. Talk to people and get second, third and even fourth opinions. I think if you search your heart, you will realize that you are not a failure.<P>I won't claim to be a military expert but isn't common in all branches of the service to believe that the good of the unit outweighs the good of each individual? Remeber, these are your kids, your own personal unit, shall we say. What's good for all of you is what is important.<P>You may be sad now, but I really think giving up the rights to your kids will only bring more pain. Give your ex the house and everything else if you want. They are just things. These kids are part of your legacy in this world. Don't give that up too.

Hello Everyone,<P> i am not sad. I just think that it is best for everyone involved. I am thinking about everyone else. This is the best way to solve this problem of mine.<P>Z,<P> I am sorry that you and your family are going through such a rough time right now. I hope that STL's work slows down alittle for him to catch his breath. I know how things can make you go in 20 different directions at one time. You also sound like you could use a break yourself. <P>Indy

All,<P> I have not had a good day. I almost did it. I had a argument with my mother and I packed the bag for the kids. I loaded them up and went to work. After there I drove around for awhile. I came back to my parents for some more of the kids stuff. I then proceeded to drive over the their house. I got to the street and I couldn't do it. I turned around and came back to my parents house. It was really close. I almost did it. <P>Indy

Indy,<BR>Do not do it man. Hold it and give it some time. You could do it any time later. My personal story ... I had to make a decision 14 years ago to leave my father, family & my father's bussiness that I built it from the ground up due to disagreement how the bussiness should be run. ( I want it to run it w/ professional management, not as family bussiness where the brain is all in me ...). I waited for 2 years the I came to decision that the situation is hopeless, I left everything including my part of inheritant $$$$$ and my family will disown me. See my signature below, that is my motto. If I have to do it again knowing what I knew then, I will arrive to the same decision, no regret. The bussiness went under 6 years ago, my brothers spend it all [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ... but the one then regreting it are my family. I sleep everynight like a baby and at peace w/ my soul. I give them my best shot.<P>Have you see a homeless person who swears like mad and speak to himself ?. They are not crazy, they have something in the past that they could not forgive themself.<P>My point is <B> THIS IS THE BIGGEST DESISION IN YOUR LIVE ... </B> you better damn sure that you would not regreet it later ...... <P>Hang in there man, you are tearing my heart apart ... keep us up to date ...

Indy,<P>I am very glad that you did not do it. This is not something to be done in a fit of anger. <P>Does your wife want the children? Have you discussed this with her? With the OM?<P>Did you tell your children what you were about to do? If you did they must have been very frightened. Please tell us what you did and said to your kids when you were driving around with them.<P>Z

Z,<P> I will post later tonight.<P>Indy

Does your wife want the children?<P>I don't know if she even wants the kids anymore. Everytime we talked about this type of thing she always blamed me for the kids having to live with me. I think that in her mind her life would have her the OM and the kids in a house living happily ever after.<P>Have you discussed this with her?<P>I can't talk to her. Everytime I hear her voice I want to go home to my family. I ripes my heart out when that happens.<P>With the OM?<P>I have met the man once. He told me how much of a bad husband and father that I was. Then you also know what happened the last time I saw him. But, if I were to take a guess. I would say that he would. He won my family. He took it right out from underneath my nose.<P>Did you tell your children what you were about to do? <P>Yes, I told them that they were going to live with their mom. I also told them to stop calling me dad. Mommy choose a new dad for you kids. I told them that I would never see them again. That they would be with their sister and everthing would be better. I told them that they would be happier with them anyway. They seemed very happy about it. I listened to them talk about how they were going to have fun with their sister and the OM's son. Also, how they are going to get to play with the OM's dog and everything. I am starting to wonder if they truely would be happier with them. I know that I will never be happy again without the rest of my family.<P>Indy<P>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: INDY_357 ]<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: INDY_357 ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by INDY_357:<BR><STRONG><BR>... I don't know if she even wants the kids anymore.<BR></STRONG> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One more reason to hold and figure out since they might be neglected and what percausion would you have by then.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <STRONG><BR> ... I can't talk to her. Everytime I hear her voice I want to go home to my family. I ripes my heart out when that happens.<BR></STRONG> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are still in sad mood. Calm down and get yourself together. Just remember this love could be the fuel of your strength to continue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <STRONG> ...I have met the man once. He told me how much of a bad husband and father that I was. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> </STRONG><P>Low blow !!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Your enemy knows that you are down and he want you out also.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <STRONG> ... I also told them to stop calling me dad. Mommy choose a new dad for you kids. I told them that I would never see them again. .... I know that I will never be happy again without the rest of my family.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> </STRONG><BR>If you want your family back you have to start with the one you have. Never involve the kid, if you two are back again they will get confuse like hell. I am sorry I have to disagree with your action here. W did not choose new dad for them, W choose new dad for herself !!!. You choose new dad for them by giving them up.<P>I know you are hurt and down but from all of your posting it shows that you still love your family and W. Use your pain to make you strong and work on LB and work on to win your kids heart. I lean on my kid and they cling on me as they know that at least one of the parent love them and try to work it out.<P>Be strong and get help. Focus on your kid, work on them and show them love and caring ... unconditionally.<P>Hadi

Dear Indy,<P>I am sorry for your pain. I would like to let you know that children have a way of surviving. They may carry the scars that show up later but they do survive. Does that mean we should intentionally put our children through an unwanted war? <P>No. Indy despite all you have said, you still love your children. No OM, OP, WS whatever can ever take that away from you. Not even yourself. Your children may appear to be taking it ok but really they are not. Yes, they will survive but to hear that their dad walked out on them is a memory they will carry with them forever. <P>Indy, if you can stay, stay. Let your mom and others know how hard it is for you. Don't give the OM and the WS the satisfaction of 'winning one over you.' Life is not a game. You can't just start over again like nothing happened. That is fogese thinking not normal logic. <P>I am not a dad but I have seen my son through this experience. His reaction is about 7 - 10 days in the rears. He mulls over his thoughts and when he is ready he packs a wallop. Concise thoughts with full impact. Only 6 six years old and he told his father exactly how he felt. In a letter once and in person several times. No words hit H harder than those from that little boy. <P>Your children can be your greatest supporters. Love them with all your heart. They need you as much as you need them. <P>{{{{hugs to you and your family}}}<P>L.

<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

Looking to see if you are out there Z.<P>Indy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by INDY_357:<BR><STRONG>Looking to see if you are out there Z.<P>Indy</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Who ? zorweb ?. He was around on other forum.

Hey redhat, I'm a woman... better be since SeenTheLight (STL) is my husband. He'd be real surprised otherwise... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] lol<P>Yea I'm here Indy, how are you doing today?

Z,<P> I hurt alot today. My WS called the office again today. It was wonderful to hear the sound of her voice, but in the next instent it hit me all over again. I told her that she couldn't have the kids on Thursday. She asked why and I told her that she needed to pay her child support and hung up. Now she has called about ten time in the last twenty minutes. I answer the phone and when I hear her voice I hang up. Am I being childish or what? Speaking of STL were is he today? I haven't seen him post since the server was changed over.<P>Indy

Indy,<P>Ok, you said that you don’t know if your wife wants the children. But that she blames you for the kids having to live with you. <P>Interesting. How much time does she spend with them and how much dose she ask to spend with them? This is a really big indicator.<P>When I split with my XH I refused to leave until he let me take our son. His idea was that I would leave him, our son and all of our assets. That was not my idea. Nothing, hell, high water, or another man could have gotten me to leave my son. So I’d venture to say that your wife is not wild about having full custody of the kids. But it sure is a good thing to complain about. One more way she can emotionally beat up on you. <P>I believe that if she really wanted the kids she would be with them… period. STL’s EX does this. She laments about how he keeps the kids from her. Then, times like this summer, when we thought she was going to take them for an 8-week stay, she returned them after 4 weeks. She had travel plans. It’s always like this. <P>RE: I think that in her mind her life would have her the OM and the kids in a house living happily ever after. <P>You will now know until you ask her. This sounds more like something you are thinking of, something that you are using to beat yourself up with. Have you discussed this with her? <P>I know that you cannot discuss this with her because her voice rips your heart out. You are also in Plan B. How about discussing it via email? Or how about letting your attorney discuss it with her attorney? It’s an expensive route but it works. I use a mixture of the attorney and email to communicate with my ex-H because I cannot talk to him. Not because I care for him but because he finds a way to chew me out every time we talk in person. (Actually he’s doing it less and less now that he is engaged… finally) <P>As for the OM. You have met this man only once or twice. He is having an affair with your wife. He was rude to you and told you what a bad husband and father you are. Is that really the kind of man you want to raise your kids? I don’t think so. As others have pointed out. He has not won your family. He is having an affair with your wife. Most affairs end within two years. He has a long way to go to even really win your wife. I know it does not feel like that right now. <P>He has not won your kids… he is just someone who probably treats them halfway nicely so they think that visiting is fun. That is a far cry for loving their daddy. YOU ARE THEIR DADDY and you will always be.<P>RE: “if I were to take a guess. I would say that he would. He won my family. He took it right out from underneath my nose.”<P>I will make a guess here. One of the reasons your wife is not making too much noise about having the kids with her full time is that her OM does not want them around all the time. Few men are wild about raising another man’s child. If he wanted them there, he would be encouraging her to fight tooth and nail for them.<P>I am so sorry that you told your children what you were thinking of doing. They may not have shown it, but I am sure it confused them. How old are they? I do not recall. <P>Not only were you telling them that you were abandoning them. But you were making a promise that could not be kept. You told them “everything would be better. I told them that they would be happier with them anyway.” This is another promise that would be broken. There is no way they would be better or happier if you disappeared from their life. <P>Indy, what are you doing to help you keep your sanity? Are you in counseling? It’s free through the military. Do your parents help with the kids? You really need to build a support system to help you. And you need to find a way to get rid of your frustrations so that you do not take them out on your kids. Your kids need you.<P>I know that you keep telling me that you are not depressed but the more you talk about all this the more you sound depressed. You are also very angry. Anger is one of the stages of recovery. Can you go the to gym and beat the living daylights out of a punching bag? Or get one for your garage. <P>It’s incredibly therapeutic (my brother’s tell me it is anyway. All three of them have well used punching bags. Get mad, get it out, and move on. Then love those kids.<P>Z

Z,<P> The OM is a divorced person. His wife left him for another woman. He has a son. They set up so they have the kids all at the same time. They take them over to my inlaw's house to try and act like a family. I can't get this out of my head. I don't want a life without my WS as my wife. That was the best day of my life. I felt so alive with her. I roll over at night to hold her and she is not there. That happens about every morning. I still wake up in the morning and I see myself in my bedroom in the apt. I miss kiss her when I leave for work in the morning. Yes, my parents help me with the kids, but it is not the same. I find it funny that she wants to spend time with her kids, but where is she tonight. She is at the OM's house. I think that it is time that her little vacation be ended. <P>Indy<P>Sorry I forgot to answer one of your questions.<P>She spends very little time with the kids. She did for awhile. Twice a week. Then she went for about two weeks in July. That was when she the OM and my stepdaughter went on vacation. It has been that way since then.<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: INDY_357 ]