I'm curious about how many BS's have a really strong fear of change?<P>My H has a strong aversion to change. He would stay with a job he hated for years -- because he feared the change. He would not consider moving out of the community he grew up in. He detests major purchases like houses or cars. I also think he is fighting for our marriage for the same reason. He doesn't want the change.<P>I've been trying to analyze from his perspective. Why does he want to stay married to me? I don't think its love. I have not met his needs for the last 3 years. And for a shorter period of time, I have made him really really unhappy. How long can a person go without having their needs met before the lovebank is empty? Its just not possible that he has that "in-love" feeling for me. In fact he has acknowledged that he's not sure of it. <P>I think this is all about his fear of change. And I think I have sensed this for a long time. It was one of my resistances to re-committing to him. That he didn't love and want me. He just doesn't want the change. I don't want to be chosen because its the convenient answer. <P>I wonder if other BS's also have that fear of change, and that is why they work so hard to keep the marriages together.<P>And I also wonder if other WS's feel like they are not loved -- just wanted to keep the status quo. Or if that is where the possessive feeling comes from -- like you are property.<P>Any thoughts?

Lexxy,<BR>I think a fear of change is in everyone - BS, WS, whoever. With change comes the unknown, going outside of one's comfort zone, and perhaps redefining who you are and your own dreams and goals. It can be a scary thing - for anyone.<BR>I don't know if my rambling has helped - but just my thoughts.

Lexxxy,<P>An excellent question. I know when I go to a mortgage company and sign my name to pay amounts of money that just boggle my mind, I feel great anxiety. It isn't a fear of change, it is the commitment.<P>I would like to turn the question around on you. Do WS have affairs because they are afraid of change??<P>Here is what I mean. If the marriage was so bad, why wait to have an affair why not divorce? Is it that the WS doesn't want to change the fact that they are in a relationship rather than face the world alone?<P>Is it that until they have a "safe" place they won't speak up and let their spouse know how truely bad they feel?<P>You see as Alberta points out, no one likes change, but they like it even less if they are going to face the change alone.<P>As for your H, my guess that he fears that nothing will change right now. As you said, you have done little or nothing for him for 3 years, and now you have hurt him like little else can. That kind of pain people WANT to change, and while you don't appreciate this, the common response is to divorce the cheating spouse.<P>Yet, he hasn't done that. I would say he is praying for change, but he has doubts about whether you could ever love him and he doesn't want to lose his love of you.<P>So, I don't know the answer to your question. But it is an intriqing one. I'm sure SnL will come on and give you a good page of "logic" about this. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Hope you get your answer.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

No, L., no fear of change in me. I have a great aversion to stagnancy, however. Perhaps a great contributor my marital problems. My H (the WS) on the other hand was so parylized by exactly that fear that he stood still, in a state of confusion and depression for many, many years. No matter how often I tried to initiate changes (even ones I'd heard him mention previously) I was met by a brick wall. It can happen to anyone. I don't think being a BS/WS has any bearing on it. <P>Interesting thought, though. HE was the one certain that he wanted to keep the marriage. I waffled for a long time, decided to get out twice. <BR>Snow<p>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Snowwhite ]

okey dokey.... YEP. I fear change. I really do. I can stay pretty content with stuff, in general....<P>But I still love my H and believe with a plan, we can turn things around in our marriage and be happy. That's why I'm here... not because I'm scared of losing the "marriage". Fear of change is prolly... ummm... maybe 20% of my reason for being here.<P>Good question Lex... thanks!

Well -- cool questions JL.<P>I know that in humans there is a basic resistance to change. What I've noticed in my H is a resistance that is to the far end of the scale. <P>Myself? I tend to embrace it. I change jobs with a sense of excitement. I tend to be more impulsive when it comes to decisions -- buying houses or cars. Because I don't view those things as permanent. I can change back, or change to something else.<P>Now I am not at ALL implying that I have viewed my marriage that way. Nor do I think it has anything to do with my affair. My A was not about having a safe place. I am very comfortable alone. <P>I just think it has a lot to do with how different we view divorce. It is unthinkable to H, and I really wonder if it isn't because of his fear of change rather than some undying love for me.

Lexxxy,<P>My W (the WS) has asked me many of the same questions. Why do you want to stay married to me? Why didn't you have the affair if so many of your EN weren't met (after completing the EN questionnaires)? etc. She also says that people grow and change with time.<P>I don't think giving up on a marriage and having an A is a good way to show personal growth and change. Am I afraid of change? Yes, I'm an engineer and I build things to last. I'm not really good at facing new stuff but I do move on with life (I can buy a new car, change jobs, etc. but I consider a lot of information before making this change). However, these sort of life changes are much different from changing a personal relationship. Yes, we change friends over time and other personal relationships with family, etc. but I feel that my relationship with my W is much different and I'm not ready to change.<P>I would look for many of the same character and personality traits she has in a new spouse if I ever felt like I could risk my heart again. I'm working on the relationship because I'm not ready to change. It is obvious she wasn't totally committed to a change either. Why else didn't she just totally leave? Why did she always come back to lay next to me in bed, to cook dinner for me, to wash my clothes, etc.? Maybe she wasn't ready for change--or at least that kind of change.<P>I don't know your story too well or that of your H. For me, my W deposited a lot of love units over nearly 20 years and I love and care for her deeply. She played an important role in who I am today and in the lives of our children. Right now, I can't see why I need to change partners. I also know that this change would be incredibly difficult for our three children. It seems like we just need to find that "key" that is keeping my W from letting down her guard (she says she doens't know what it is). I found that key 20 years ago. We just need to figure out how we are wired today and work with each other. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<BR>SG

Lexxxy,<P>Good question. I think it will be different for a lot of BS but I'll tell you what I think and feel.<P>I've never had a problem taking risk - until the A. I've always been able to handle anything that comes my way. I even handled DDay very good and the first few months after that. I took my W for granted in the few years leading up to the A and never really knew how much I had until it was gone. I kinda embraced the change that was happening and looked at it as a chance for our relationship to change for the better. I worked real hard to win that back and when it didn't come I was lost. I've never set my mind to anything and not have it work out. Now, I know you all are going to say that you can't controll anything but I truly believe that I love my W and I could win her back. Lesson learned. Looking back at it from her point of view I can see that she probably thought I was very needy and clingy. I can see how she could think that I was afraid of change even though I've never been that way.<P>We had talked about divorce a few months before the A and even though the subject was dropped the damage was done. In W's mind we were going to D as soon as we started a second business so our lifestyle wouldn't have to suffer too much. Now when I found out about the A I was kinda in a panic. After a lot of soul searching I knew I wanted to try to make it work with us and I was also afraid if it didn't we would be stuck splitting everything up and I would be working the rest of my life to pay her off. My future looked pretty bleak at that time and yes, I will admit that I was willing to suffer for a long time not to have to become a slave to a M that didn't make it.<BR>When I finally talked to my W openly and honestly (and we did go through the threats and battles that you and your H are going through now) and told her my fears. She knew that I needed to have a life where I could continue to grow and not be worried about giving up my business dreams. I told her that I would be fair but I need her to work with me to give me the freedom to pursue and take risks. I couldn't become a slave. We would both loose. So now I've kinda come full circle. Learned a lot and feel like I'm getting my confidence back. I'm about to jump into another business. There was no way I could have done that a few months ago.<P>I know your H owns his own business and probably has a lot of these fears. That is why I bring it up. <P>What is so funny about the question is that my W is paranoid of change. We built a new home about 4 years ago. It was about 3 times as large as our previous home. It was a dream house. Me and kids lived there for two weeks before W finally moved over. She lived in our old house for 2 weeks because she was so afraid of moving. We (probably I) decided to sell that house and build again about a year ago. She decided to go back to work about the same time. All of the sudden change wasn't so hard anymore (at least on the surface). She changed quite a bit. That led to my screen name. <P>No real answers but the subject is something I think a lot about. Hope I didn't drift to far off the subject. I hope things are getting better for you.<P>who

Great question and thread. My view is that people are not necessarily afraid of change, itself. Having worked in the corporate world for years and heard all kinds of banter about how "people inherently dislike change...", it is just not true. I mean, think about it, if your boss came in to your office and said, "There are going to be some changes around here. The first changes is we are going double your salary. The second change is the fact that you no longer have to work on Fridays..." I don't think too many employees would be down at the watercooler *****ing about the changes. <BR>The issue is this: people are resistant to changes they perceive as negative to their health or well-being. Or, to changes where the impact is unknown. It may be negative, it may be positive - it just is not clear yet. This is where your personality and taste for risk comes in. Some folks are risk takers, some are not. If you aren't and you are presented with a change option where the impact is unknown, yes, you would be fearful.<BR>So, when you say your husband doesn't like change. I think you really mean he doesn't like to take risks. He will take the safe route. Staying with you is safer (more familiar) than the unknown avenue of divorcing you. Either that, or he percieves Divorce to be a really negative change in his life. <BR>Even though you can't imagine how he could really love you. Maybe you should open yourself to the idea that he could.

Actually, my H may say that, but your know I am the one who wanted to move, not him, I am the one who wants a new job, not him, I am the one who plans and dreams, not him. So actually I think my H is the one who has a fear of change. Maybe I do to an extent, but I still hold a lot of love for my H and he has fulfilled my ENs for a long, long time. Even in the midst of this he has here and there. <P>But we were getting to a point where decisions had to be made about moving, jobs, buying a house, kids, etc....and he just didn't want to make any. Instead of telling me all this and letting us work through it all and come up with us both being comfortable, he feels he needs to leave because he can't "give me what I need" (not sure what he thinks that is though) and he is "holding me back." So basically my impression is he is hitting a place where he needs to start becoming a little more of an adult, and he just doesn't want to. He wants to stay in the same place, he doesn't like to change. This is actually new because he used to be ok with it (unless he has been faking, but I don't think so). So my H's A came from the fact that the OW will never leave the area, she doesn't want to get another degree, she doesn't have many plans and dreams. No pressure, no commitment really, no need to grow up ir change at all. He doesn't want me to change for him (not that it would be FOR him from MY perspective) and he doesn't know if he can change to be how I need him to be (again, all his percieved ideas of what would make me happy or not without asking me).<P>OK, so there is my 2cents. Have you ever considered that your H might be of the thinking (and I very much am) that you two were in love before and if you can learn to compromise and work together that love will resurface, there is just too much getting in the way right now. Just a thought...maybe you should bring this up to him so he can see that he HAS to make some changes if he really truly wants to be with you and you trust that he wants YOU, not that he just doesn't want to change. It may not help or change anything, but then again...maybe it will put a whole different spin on things.

Both. I don't like change...especially the catastrophic kind...but I do like change...probably change that I can control [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img].<P>My early life was filled with many moves...dad was military...then when they divorced (BIG SURPRISE)there was HUGE change in our lifestyle. There was also a HUGE change in lifestyle when the second stepfather appeared. Guess CHANGE and FAMILY are a problem for me.<P>Now as to jobs...I did work at the same school for 12 years...but what I taught changed from year to year (English, Social Studies, Yearbook, Drama, Reading) and I moved rooms at least 5 times! When I moved schools it was to a 'relatively' safe job with someone I knew...<P>But I would relish moving to Central California...just wanted H to have his clear teaching credential...again...controlled change...<P>This is probably clear as mud...hopefully you get something out of it...<P>BTW...I keep thinking about WHY I still love my H...and...well that's for another thread.<P>Cali

I truly believe that my H is not in love with me.<BR>He just doesn't want to be without me. (and the Me that he wants is just the superficial things -- how I manage the household, pay the bills, provide for the family, etc.)<P>He doesn't want a change.<P>He fears finding someone new.<BR>I think that his insecurity makes him cling to me rather than find someone else who would be a better mate for him. <BR>But he doesn't love me. I've asked him. He says the words -- but can't really express it if you know what I mean.

Lexxxy...<P>What could he say or do to help you believe him?<P>Cali

good question! Having been in the military for 20 years and moving every 3 of them, change isn't a big deal. I have looked at my motivations quite closely for wanting a life with my W to ensure that it's for the right reasons. I love her with all my heart and I do fear losing her terribly. But if anything it's not the fear of change that drives that, it's the fear that my feelings for her never will change and I'll have to live with her in my heart forever. My W on the other hand I'm not so sure about. Her A is on-going (I-net romance with one face-to-face) yet she is still here.. She gave me a half-hearted invite to move back in and even suggested our spare bedroom was unsuitable when I suggested I use it. Yet she'll not comit to working on our M and she says she is indifferent most days. So why is she still here? I figure it either boils down to she really does love me and she's not ready to address her fears in the M or she's afraid of changing her life and leaving her comfort zone. Who knows... I'm terminally confused most days. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

disclaimer....these are just my personal opinions...NOT FACTS, although some of it is supported by research findings.<P>Without resorting to a definition of "change" suffice to say it is not change itself, it is "rate" of change, or magnitude of change (as some have a alluded too). Sort of the first derivative of growth (that was for jl). <P>Clearly humans are hard-wired for change, it is how we have been able to move from the stone-age to the electronics-age. It is essential, it is the weapon we use to make up for all our other physical deficiencies which would have rendered us extinct long ago. No one "hates" change, we are change.<P>On the other hand, empirical observation of how we treat any advances (which lead to big change), and the people who make them (we often kill them, or imprison them, and supress their efforts at change), which lead to substantial changes in our lives , suggests we like our change in very small, non-threatening bites.<P>This makes sense, small change, with the time to assess it's efficacy leaves us in "control", big change can be catastrophic, and will be resisted cause it is dangerous..... Take hitler, he led a catstrophic change of values re human life, and population planning. At the time we had no means to really assess quickly whether he was right or not, but we (the rest of the world) reacted decisively (albeit a little slowly), and we killed him, and scrapped his plans. Yet we do the same things now, with cloning, genetic engineering, and so forth, in small acceptable bites. Eventually we will probably end up where he was going (in a sense) total control over our the biological nature of human beings. Even now, large numbers of people would scrap all genetic engineering and never allow the skills to be developed, if they could. Why? No good reason usually, just fear of change, gussied up in morality or ethical semantics.<P>IMO our species is divided into 3 groups, and for very good reason, it works....how do we know? We still exist to talk about it. 20% of us are risk takers, in that our comfort level for change is higher than the norm. We don't mind changing jobs, moving out of town, trying out new technology (more on that in a minute), or challenging our marriages (and other personal relationships), we view change as an opportunity, not something to fear. The other 80% maintain the status quo, they just want everything predictable, and they are loathe to take risks. Of that 80% maybe 30% are flexible, and will take a wait and see attitude if provoked, allowing the other 20% to suggest/implement change. But they are the swing vote, the bridge between the reactionaries and the progressives....the moderates. Btw this sort of thing is being revealed in on-going research into personality types. This is hardwired stuff, no one is going to change their programming, but one can learn to be more adaptable and such.<P>Re marriage, a bs is clearly facing a catastrophic change, and since 80% of us are reactionary, they are going to very predictably resist (even previous mild mannered bs, turn into very aggressive determined fighters), and resist hard. Likewise many ws are also going to come to their senses and fear of change kick in. By disposition more ws are gonna be risk takers for obvious reasons, hence IMO, the laments about fog, and throwing it all away. Some ws are ok with that, it is how they are hardwired, the risk is acceptable. If a ws is one of the 80% there is some usefullness in using risk aversion arguments. But one should understand their ws, cause if they are one of the 20% it is not very useful, and may be counter=productive as they percieve the bs as weak, and needy, and clingy, and therefore not the "strong" mate we all seek (for obvious reasons). I suspect those bs, who quickly conclude, ok buster, you got 5 minutes to make up your mind, start working or hit the road, are in the 20%, they may be unhappy with the turn of events, but they will survive, and they kinda welcome the new opportunity to fix the marriage or start anew with someone who appreciates them, they are not afraid. And if their ws is one of the 80% they quickly return to the fold rather than risk all, just greatful that things will now get fixed. I don't say much about this here, but it is interesting to look at the various marital situations in terms of risk taking, and fear of change, it is a very obvious ingredient in much of the rhetoric.<P>Finally I ponder myself. I too have (apart form any other reasons) a certain reluctance to end my marriage, and I wonder about it. Some say it is cause I know I am wrong, or cause I really do fit, but I don't think so. I have not read a single story here of anyone who did not regret the end of their marriage, no matter how bad it was. I think (now) we are all suspicious of big change, and need to face it squarely on when we choose it (and that includes staying in a marriage, but changing the rules), make a decision and just act on it. Knowing we will experience fear and trepidation no matter what we do, but have a plan, and carry it fully out without faltering....then reassess and regroup if need be. This is the so-called fence sitting, false recoveries, or bs suddenly losing interest, and so forth, it is all fear driven, fear of change, risk, the unknown, and it is inescapable. That is why we have plan a/b and rules of protection/extraordinary precautions (in revovery), and MB principles...to overcome the fear. What needs to be addressed more is time, their has to be time limits on this stuff, each must decide for themself, but their needs to be an end to the process. IMO this counterracts the fear, a time when you say ok, I have chosen, stay or leave, I am in it for the long haul now. Some can wait years before dealing with it, that IMO is mostly fear driven, they (bs or ws) just cannot, will not, deal with the end of the marriage, and until it is done to them, will just exist. Neither working very effectively at the marriage (risk of changing themself), or leaveing the marriage (risk of finding someone else who will meet whatever needs currently getting met), and these marriages may go on for years, lifetimes, but it is so sad. The choices are left up to the other spouse, who either is resentful of carrying the marriage, or is resentful of being the bad guy and ending it. So they end up (of afraid of change) doing nothing either, and the marriage just lurches along until the next affair, or crisis, or someone dies.<P>I think you are right about your H lexxy, near as I can tell (or anyone can about others spouses, from the info presented). He is one of the bs (and I think they are legion), who "loves" the marriage, not the spouse. And part of that love is having their comfortable world come apart. But it was never real anyways, was just a picture, the deep bonding never happened. They do not want the change, and may even make a transparent effort to temporarily negotiate to maintain it.....IMO the tip off is how angry and/or manipulative the bs comes as they try to maintain what they want, and how little concern they have for what the ws wants, especially if the ws does not want to be married to them. I really don't think it is that difficult to assess whether a marriage is desireable or not. It does take a lot of work, but ultimately if you would not marry the person again (if go back in time), or would not choose them now (if both single), there is very little reason to stay married (for either party) from a love standpoint. After which it all becomes a pragmatic decision, risk assessment, fear of change, finances etc. And one chooses a negotiated marriage, and forgoes love, hoping at least for caring, and respect.<P>You are absolutely right lexxxy, I don't believe my wife loves me. I believe she is scared of life without me, and is willing to settle for me. I do think she cares about me, and likes me some, but I stress her, just by who I am. And she gets angry, maniplative, and hurtful when I am not behaving as I should. But is fine as long as I am meeting her needs, and works reasonably diligently at meeting mine. She has done pretty much the same things as your , but not quite to the degree or as hurtfully. But she has trashed me to the kids, she has treatened my well-being (financially), she has made it clear she will hate me if I leave, she has condemned me as a Christian, she has questioned my morals and motivations, and belittled me in every way possible. But ya know what, I will never feel ill about her personally, I make all the same excuses that she is just upset and all..... but ya know what, that may be true, but it is not love. However, it is consistent with her behaviour throughout our marriage. I don't blame her, we just don't fit. Nor do I want a marriage where it only works when I meet her needs the way she wants them met, and at the expense of being who I am. Actually things have calmed down a fair amount. She now says she is not so sure she wants to be married to me either, the only real change now is I do not let her anger control my actions. If she wants to be angry it is her problem, I can't make her angry. Frankly I think she would "love" whovever she was married too, I am irrelevant, I am just filling the husband slot. I asked her that, and she said probably true. Anyways, I digress, yep, IMO fear of change plays a big part in all this, but for very good reasons.

Lexxy - <BR>I have no fear of change, love to try new things, like new people, cultures, etc, etc.....and I want to NOT change husbands even though mine had an affair.<BR>Why.<BR>Because I love him.<BR>However, I WILL change husbands if my trust is ever betrayed again. Period. <BR>And here's the scarry part....in the early weeks after D-Day, there was actually a tiny little piece of me that was actually looking forward to the whole divorce, new relationship thing and I think this is because of my NEED for change...I think I was like, well...the absolute worst thing has happened, you are total pain....what good do you see - oh, yeah...something new! I think that was THE MOST scarry thing I faced, actually. I did admit this to my WH and he cried. I feel bad because I think this was kind of a Lovebuster even though I didn't say it in a mean way. oh well. He'll get over it.

Yes this is thinker, I have not trashed my H in front of my kids. <BR> That is why I will never love another man in my life. <P>As far as telling the story, it will end here. I am sick of reading how such a not very likeable person I am.<P>I don't want this marriage, the way it is going now. I feel my H is hiding things from me to this day.<P>I still love my H, and I am sorry he doesn't feel that I do. I will leave if that is what he wants, life will be tough, and remember I was by your side during all the trama in your life, not your OW. I am sorry my H does not love me, states he will never love me, states that we do not fit. Life with the OW was euphoria, fantasy, and all. But will he admit it, ask him?<P>Depressed today, home from surgery. H home, on the computer. Life is a B*T*H and then you DIE.<p>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]

Oh thinker I am so sorry for your pain. Your H is a very sick man but you know what you need to take care of yourself. Staying in your situation any further will destroy you. I think the vast majority of the posters here do not buy into all his bs. <P>For your sake please consult a lawyer you cannot depend on your H to treat you fairly. He is so hellbent on making you responsible for all his unhappiness that he will not hesitate to destroy you financially. I have a feeling that even after you two split up he will continue to blame you. So you need to have as a little contact with him as possible. Also please get some IC for yourself<P>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]

Thinker,<P>Keep your head up. Maybe you and your H should switch screen names?<P><BR>who

Thinker,<P>I am so sorry for your continued pain -- both emotionally, and now physically.<P>You know, right now is not the time to think about your marriage -- just HEAL from your surgery.