This is a topic a few of us have tossed around a lot, lately. It may not apply directly to everyone's situation, but the discussion is worth the read for anyone.<P>Many of our spouses' affairs began with online relationships. We can all associate with the dreaded sound of fingers typing furiously on a keyboard in the other room, while we were left feeling neglected and alone. We'd go to bed alone, wishing our spouses would just tear themselves away from whatever "fascinating" conversation was keeping them online, but they don't. And we fall asleep, alone, and feel sorry for ourselves. <BR>Sometimes, we'll approach our spouses and try and discuss our feelings of neglect. These discussions are usually met with opposition. Our spouses have found the freedom of expressing themselves online, without fear of judgement, or rejection, and it is far easier than trying to talk to us.<P>So the story goes... Eventually they meet someone of the opposite sex. Very easy to do online. You don't even have to look for it. It happens to you, sometimes. It's happened to me. They develop a bond of trust. They feel as if they could tell each other ANYthing. They CAN tell each other anything. They are usually seperated by many miles of space, and this rids our insecure minds of inhibition and frees our souls. <BR>Soon that bond turns to friendship, sometimes, love, oftentimes sexual relations when they meet.<P>So what am I getting at??<P>What did we, as BSes, do wrong? Should we have insisted they spent that time with us, and not online, with other people? Should we have thrown the computer out the window? Is it really the source of the problem? I think we all know the answers to those questions.<P>But what about the question... why did our spouses abandon openness and honesty with us, and develop it with other people? Maybe it is because we were indeed judgemental or we made them feel uncomfortable about being truly open about their feelings. Maybe we weren't judgemental at all, but they just got tired of hearing us say the same things over and over again.<BR>My wife craves attention, and has this need to constantly reaffirm her attractiveness. It stems from a low self esteem issue that many of us can associate with, I am sure. She's always craved attention from me. She'd constantly ask me if I thought she was beautiful. As time passed, it got harder and harder to convince her that I did indeed think she was beautiful. I'll have to admit, I stopped trying as hard, after a while. <BR>Online, there are millions of guys, just waiting to express just how beautiful they think a woman is. They know exactly what they hope to achieve. And the women like my wife don't mind it, just because they are having this EN fulfilled. <P>So what do we do? I guess what I am asking, is what do I do?? I try and show my love for her constantly. I genuinely express my desire and attraction towards her, and she accepts these expressions of love, but it doesn't seem to satisfy her. She loves to dress provacitavely and get winks and smiles from other men. How do I help her overcome these issues? What can I do to help bring her focus back on me, instead of every guy with a grin on his face and his eyes on her body?<P>Sorry this post has become so long, but I've got a lot on my mind.

I am one of the ones with the midnight life, so was ow, both our spouses went to bed about 9-9:30, but neither of us had ever chatted or been active in any on-line relationship. We happened to be interested in the same things and "met" on a board, much like this one, only about religion. It was not the comp that made this happen. We chose to exchange email, then message, then telephone, then meet....the comp did not make any of those choices, and it would have happened no matter how we met. Affairs, love or otherwise, are not about communication mediums, they are about the choices of the people who have them. HOWEVER, one cannot deny the role opportunity plays. And in my on-going contemplation of the effect on-line communications have on human beings I have come to some conclusions. On-line communications are a new phenomena for human beings, one not present in our evolution, and it is changing us in unexpected ways. People on-line have a subtle but very real personality shift. The shift is a reduction in inhibitions. That is neither good or bad, it just is a fact we need to be aware of. On-line has brought many people out of their shells, as their is enough distance not to trigger shyness and embarassment behaviours, but still real enough to make it fun to do. Humans are gregariuous, social, animals, we LIKE each other, and like to interract.<P>Therein also lies the danger, we fall in love by getting to know someone, and on-line facilitates that. But people do not have affairs cause opportunity presents itself, they have affairs cause of who they are. And if who they are is an unhappy person, married to someone they do not fit (leaveing aside whether that is permanent or fixable) they will fall in love sooner or later with someone. In real life, and times past, your opportunities may have been severely limited, so you never had the "chance". But on-line you are essentially exposed to hundreds of prospective mates (so to speak) and one of them will eventually "fit". It is a simple numbers game, coupled with reduced inhibiitions, coupled with opportunity for annonymity. Secret meeetings on the computer are very hard to "discover". <P>Trying to follow your spouse around, is essentially begging the issue. Why would anyone want to be married to someone they are fearful will find someone else? This is where I differ from the harleys, I don't believe in protecting the marriage, I don't want to be married to someone who doesn't freely choose me everyday, not cause they can't choose someone else, but chooses me OVER everyone else. But that is cause honesty and openess are far and away my greatest need. <P>In the beginning I tried to include my w in on-line activities, I enjoy it. I like surfing, I like boards, I like playing games, I like doing reasearch for stuff. She wanted nothing to do with any of it. So I went on without here. She eventually became resentful and jealous of the time spent, and would nag me about it. This frustrated me even more, she obviously just plain doesn't like who I am, wants me to be someone else (made in her image), and only made a distressed marriage even worse. Ow had the same issues, her spouse too liked it better when she was fullfilling the dutiful roles he expected AND talking with strangers, and having a life was NOT on his agenda of allowable behaviours. So we both kinda fought with our spouses for this activity (this was before we met), and enjoyed the enrichment of our lifes on-line brought. We both became aware we were not such defective people after all, others liked and respected us, and we were valued by someone. I think this happens alot. Many spouses are in "controlled" marriages, and the comp is the escape from that. The controller can no loner control us, or our thoughts, and by gosh, they better not try, cause we will finally fight back for this access. <P>The rest is just details, the opportunity, and mindset is in place, all that awaits is the right chemistry. So yes, by leaveing your spouse alone at night, the marriage will be put to it's severest test, but followng them around, and insisting they sleep the same time you do is only addressing the symptons. The disease is they are not in-love with you, and this is as good a way as any to find that out, and then deal with it. It would be nice it we could learn from life experiences without having them, but then that is not really possible is it. It is not easy (without training, or prior experience) to tell if your spouse is not in-love with you, or just is a night owl with different sleep habits and all is well. But you can probably trust your instincts, both our spouses asked us if we were having an affiar, we both said no, we just enjoy talking about stuff. And we did, enjoy talking about stuff, we really had no idea what was happening, until we were in-love.<P>As for the loss of openess and honesty with spouse, obviously depends on the people. But I (and ow) had lost trust with our spouses decades ago, it we ever had it all. Interestingly there are things my wife does not know about me (my life as a whole), but there is nothing the ow does not know about me......I do wonder about that, and it plays a part in my conjectures here about the mysteries of fitting. Likewise the ow, and her stuff. I can only arrive at one conclusion, those of you who wonder about the loss of honesty, never had it, only an illusion. No matter how much you think you were in-love, your spouse never really trusted you. That may say something about them, or it may say something about you, but IMO is could also (and often does) say more about how you fit. I do think trust, openess and honesty, are functions of how well you fit someone, and cannot be simply chosen to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GodlyMan:<BR><STRONG><BR>Many of our spouses' affairs began with online relationships. We can all associate with the dreaded sound of fingers typing furiously on a keyboard in the other room, while we were left feeling neglected and alone. We'd go to bed alone, wishing our spouses would just tear themselves away from whatever "fascinating" conversation was keeping them online, but they don't. And we fall asleep, alone, and feel sorry for ourselves. <BR>Sometimes, we'll approach our spouses and try and discuss our feelings of neglect. These discussions are usually met with opposition. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GM -- I had all of the feelings you described except it was the TV keeping me and H apart. I'd lay awake listening to the sounds of channel-flipping and wondering what was so compelling that you would ignore my pleas to be with me in bed....???<P>After we bought the computer, it was my turn to keep him waiting. So a bit of it was revenge.<P>As I posted on Cali's thread -- I also think online you are more susceptable to getting intimate with others. If a man flirted with me in person they way that they did online, I would most likely have walked away from that situation. Online I didn't feel like I had to run or hide -- there was no physical flight reaction. <P>Also in real life, my husband was always somehow present. Even if it were just me and my girlfriends out at a bar, any man that tried to pick me up would have gotten a brush-off -- because I would never let my friends see that. They all knew I was married, and they know my H. Online there was nobody "watching". I think that has a lot to do with it too. <P>Online you are able to develop these relationships without anyone seeing what is going on. For me personally, by the time I actually physically met OM, we had talked every day for hours for months. We knew each other and loved each other. No of course we didn't know what it was like to live together -- but I can tell you this: I knew OM better, more intimately, more completely before I ever SAW him -- than I knew my H when I married him.

Godlyman,<P>I also think online offers that ability to be unknown and therefore nonjudgemental. You can say shocking things without anyone telling you to be quiet or being shocked.<BR>And because you are unknown you can bear your soul without worrying about being judged. I think a lot of this goes to the break down in communication within the marriage. If the marriage communication was what it should be, the partner online wouldn't be as succiptible to those that flirt with them.<P>I too have a great need for affirmation. Since your W enjoys being online, just send plenty of romantic cards. There are so many sites you can go to that have cards you can set up to send at different dates. And when you go out make a point of letting her know how great it makes you feel to be seen with her. I'm sure you treat her like the sexiest woman in the world since that is how she wants to be seen. Just make a habit of letting her know how great she looks, how sexy she is and how much you want her. <P>My H was very good at that when we first started getting our marriage back together, but once again he is too busy and too involved with all this projects to realize that he is not meeting that need for me any longer. So i will have to tell him. I won't seek to have that need met anywhere else even tho I know it would be easy to have some other man meet it online. After having an A that started out as an innocent internet chat, I know to stay away from that.<BR>But it is still a big draw for me and one I constant work to curb.<BR>Good luck.<BR>Debbie

What happened to commitment and respect for spouses, marriages and family ? All marriages have their ups and downs and the idea is to support each other through those times. Long time married couples will tell you that they did not always love or even like each other but the commitment to stay and work through those times was there. <P>Having someone tell you how beautiful and charming and witty you are on a daily basis is not something that normally happens in day to day married life. Would continual flattery be the expectation if the old marriage was ended and a new one started with the on-line affair ? That person is still human with all the good, bad and ugly parts. <P>Perhaps putting the same amount of time and effort into chatting with the spouse, spending time together or with family or friends, working on hobbies, exercise or self-improvement would fill the void and the need for the ego stroking. <P>What was the attraction to the spouse in the first place ? I would venture to guess that there was a lot in common at that time as well and bedtimes were not an issue. Lies and secrets associated with an affair, through whatever medium, destroys trust and communication. <P>Words are very powerful and easily communicated but obviously not the same as a face to face, day to day real-life relationship.

Juice -- <BR>Those are all good points -- they're just not the reality of what we're dealing with.<P>Sure, yup, IF i had told my H all the problems were adding up, and IF he had responded in a way that had fixed them -- we wouldn't be here today.<P>Fact of the matter is -- we failed each other.<P>And I personally didn't think I was susceptable to another man. I understood that my marriage would have its ups and downs, but that overall we were working toward the same goals. <P>But when I started realizing that I was the only one working, and that he was along for the ride, my resentment built up. And he knew I was upset, disappointed, resentful. But H has even said -- he thought he could get away with it. He never thought I was capable of unattaching myself from him.<P>My A was not about flattery and compliments. But rather about someone who took the time to know me. My H was not willing to be that person. I tried. And he knows I tried. And no matter how sorry he is for that now -- it can't change what happened.<P>And he was only sorry when he lost me.

sad and lonely wrote:<P><B>In the beginning I tried to include my w in on-line activities, I enjoy it. I like surfing, I like boards, I like playing games, I like doing reasearch for stuff. She wanted nothing to do with any of it. So I went on without here. She eventually became resentful and jealous of the time spent, and would nag me about it. This frustrated me even more, she obviously just plain doesn't like who I am, wants me to be someone else (made in her image), and only made a distressed marriage even worse. Ow had the same issues, her spouse too liked it better when she was fullfilling the dutiful roles he expected AND talking with strangers, and having a life was NOT on his agenda of allowable behaviours. So we both kinda fought with our spouses for this activity (this was before we met), and enjoyed the enrichment of our lifes on-line brought. We both became aware we were not such defective people after all, others liked and respected us, and we were valued by someone. I think this happens alot. Many spouses are in "controlled" marriages, and the comp is the escape from that. The controller can no loner control us, or our thoughts, and by gosh, they better not try, cause we will finally fight back for this access.</B><P>.....sorry, to me this is just c**p....<BR>my spouse doesn't want me to spend all my time online so now I'm in a relationship that is controlling.....<BR>Whatever.<BR>If your in a controlling relationship and you don't like it and the person refuses to change....GET OUT OF THAT RELATIONSHIP!<P>What a weak rationalization for an affair. Pathetic.<P>LLL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GodlyMan:<BR><STRONG><P>My wife craves attention, and has this need to constantly reaffirm her attractiveness. It stems from a low self esteem issue that many of us can associate with, I am sure. She's always craved attention from me. <P>So what do we do? I guess what I am asking, is what do I do?? </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have a question..by chance is your wive an adult survivor of childhood abuse?? What was her FOO like? <P>You say that she craves attention..there are different types of attention..<P>There is communication..where you sit down and talk to each other..openly and honestly about everything..where you both share things<BR>not just about your day, but your past, what makes you the person you are today, and what makes her the person she is today? your dreams, your hopes, your fears..and hers as well..and really listened to what was being said, not gotten mad, upset, angry, not walked away in the middle of a conversation?? (thats one thing about online things..the other person doesn't just get up and walk away when your saying something you feel is important) <P>2. There is the attention of needing to know your attractive--This is usually caused by a low-self image..and no you can't "fix" that in her..and other people can't "fix" that either..that has to come from within..<BR>and her liking herself..<P>That can come by education, healing damaged emotions..knowing that you are important for who are..and not what you look like..if she was ever teased about her looks..then others helped plant the seed that "looks" make the person who they are..(much like the blonde jokes..so many ppl automatically assume a blonde is stupid) and also much like the "game" some teachers did in school to teach about racism..where they would seperate all the "blue" eyed kids from the "brown" eyed kids and tell the blue eyed kids they were stupid..and worthless..and they were below dirt..if they hear these things enough..they begin to believe it..and it doesn't matter how much someone else tells them it's not fact..until they relearn their own internal<BR>thoughts about themselves..you can never meet that need..(I speak from experience) but if she was brought up to believe that beauty is <BR>all that there is..and she is just her body..and nothing else matters..that change has to come from within..<P>Does your wife like to read?? If so there are<BR>some wonderful books out there that can help..one of which is "Beauty for Ashes"<BR>The Wounded Heart..and a few others..you can buy them to read for yourself..and sit up and read while she is online..and as you read through them you could share with her things that it says..that may pique her interest..and want her to read more..

Wow, a lot of great replies. I even have to defend SNL's post. loveslabourslost, I don't think SNL was trying to offer rationalization for an affair. But he was trying to express his mindset, and the actions that led to the possibility of an affair. These same actions might not have culminated into an affair in another couple, but it did with SNL and Thinker. That's all I believe he was saying.<P>I strongly agree that the Internet has thrown the first truly new monkey wrench into relationships, in many many ages. We've had bar and pubs, in which people could go and drink, and lose their inhibitions, have their one night stands. I'm sure many affairs in the past were created in bars and pubs. But the internet is much more complex, and more common. We're all on it (obviously!) and it's a really dangerous place. Like SNL said, it is a powerful test of committment and trust. I overestimated my wife's committment and trust. I don't regret it, though. It's this unwavering and unquestioning love that I want to give, and recieve. I won't let this affair destroy that in my heart.<P>For Lexxxy, it was her husband and the TV. Also a common "escape" from the responsibility of open communication between spouses. And then the freedome and uninhibition of the internet opened up a world in which she found satisfaction for her needs. She didn't even need to nag her husband to fulfill those needs. She found them, in secret, seemingly without consequence. But now she's aware of that danger.<P>We all are.<P>So do we throw the computers out the window? I've already decided - no. The same reason I wouldn't take the dark-ages approach and murder the OM. Because I want my wife to decide that I am the man she wants. And I'm going to do my best to be the best man I can. But I know I'm making mistakes, and I know I've made mistakes, that pushed her away. I wish I knew what they were.<P>Debbie, you made some awesome recommendations. These are things that my wife will even hint to me. For example, sometimes she'll ask "Are you proud to be seen with me, like, in the mall?" and I always enthusiastically say yes! The truth is, I am! She's beautiful! She's tall and has gorgeous long blonde hair, and guys are always staring at her, but I just hold her hand tight and grin. I need to express myself more often, perhaps. She probably couldn't possibly get tired of hearing it, but not in the same way. time and time again.<P>I definitely admit, that for a long time, I became obsessed with my hobbies, and talked more about them than I ever talked about her, and how beautiful I thought she was. I definitely became far too relaxed and comfortable in our marriage. She never (seriously, never) really expressed to me her dissatisfaction, though. She never even seemed unhappy. Even now, while she maintains contact with the OM, and lies to me about it, she still seems so happy when she is with me. But she tells him, in emails, that she only tolerates being with me, until she can talk to him again. When she is with me, at an ice cream shop, she wishes it was him that was there with her.<P>Those are painful emails to read. I'm glad I don't have access to them anymore =(<P>Moving on to respond to Juice - you definitely have a strong point. There is somethign wrong when a spouse NEEDS constant reaffirmation of their attractiveness and desireability. My wife has extremely low self-esteem. Her relationship with her parents is good, overall. Both of them have short tempers, and so does she. She doesn't tell me all that much about her childhood, though. I try to get her to, and usually start with telling her about mine. But the result has been that she knows practically everything I did when I was a kid, and I still don't know much about her. She builds these walls to guard against these insecurities, and doesn't let many in. Not even me. But she claims, in emails to the OM again, that she has let him in. This angers me, almost more than anything. My despair is that I wish so badly she would let me in. <P>ThornedRose, my wife does like to read, but only for entertainment. She detests self-help books and that's why I can't get her to read SAA. She isn't interested in recovery, anyway. Even though she's trying to make me think otherwise.<P>I wish I could help her build up her self-esteem. I know I have, to an extent. She is a lot more confident now, than she was when I met her, years ago. But now she is creating this dependency on outside confidence - getting attention from guys to make her feel attractive. And it worries me. This is something that has the possibility of building into something that will never change. And that would be terrible. For me and her.<P>I know I can help her. If she'll just let me. I am going to try and initiate "talks" with her about it. She doesn't like to talk. She avoids environments in which we *could* talk. But I am going to initiate it in email. That's how we met and fell in love, so that's the media we'll have to go back to. I want to reassure her that she can open up to me, and I won't judge her, or make her feel worthless. On the contrary, I want to help her. I know the Harley's recommend against annoying depressing talks in Plan A, but I will keep the conversation away from the affair. I just want to help her talk again. She needs it so bad, and she's got to get it somewhere. And if it's not me, then it's the OM. <P>Sorry my post has been so long again. But thanks for reading and replying. I appreciate your help SO much. Thanks.

Okay, your relationship started online..in e-mails?? so maybe she just isn't comfortable in face to face relationships..but there has to be a reason why...<P>you say she doesn't talk to you about her past..hmmm..trigger trigger..<P>You could try the e-mail thing again..but<BR>is that the kind of relationship you really want with your wife?? through e-mails???<BR>I don't think you could be satisfied with that..<P>As far as her not liking the self-help type books, do you like to read? does she know this about you? if so you can write her e-mails and add some information about what you've read..even things from this site..<P>Like..I found this really neat site..and send her a link to the emotional needs section..or something..to maybe get her to look at it at least??

SnL Wrote:<P>"As for the loss of openess and honesty with spouse, obviously depends on the people. But I (and ow) had lost trust with our spouses decades ago, it we ever had it all. Interestingly there are things my wife does not know about me (my life as a whole), but there is nothing the ow does not know about me......I do wonder about that, and it plays a part in my conjectures here about the mysteries of fitting. Likewise the ow, and her stuff. <B>I can only arrive at one conclusion, those of you who wonder about the loss of honesty, never had it, only an illusion. No matter how much you think you were in-love, your spouse never really trusted you.</B> That may say something about them, or it may say something about you, but IMO is could also (and often does) say more about how you fit. I do think trust, openess and honesty, are functions of how well you fit someone, and cannot be simply chosen to do."<P>SnL,<P>You are wearing on my last nerve. Honest to gawd. Again with the blanket statements regarding "ALL" WSs never really loving or trusting the BSs. <P>I've come to conclusion that you, SnL, use your situation, experiences and relationship ... "YOUR FEELINGS" and draw the assumption everyone else in this mess falls into the same category as you, Thinker and OW. <P>Or is it perhaps if you include the entire world in your rationalizations and weak conclusions that it makes you feel justified and less guilty? i.e., "*EVERYONE* that cheats never loved or trusted their spouse in the first place so their marriage was imminently doomed from the beginning, just like me." <P>SnL, I have a request. Knowing most of the people here are in the worse anguish of their lives, could you kindly pare down your blanket statements to referencing solely your particular situation? It would illustrate a degree of respect and compassion for your fellow posters.<P>I realize I do not have the right to curtail what you write, this is simply a request.<P>Best,<BR>Jo<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

jo... [B]I can only arrive at one conclusion, those of you who wonder about the loss of honesty, never had it, only an illusion. No matter how much you think you were in-love, your spouse never really trusted you.[B/] That may say something about them, or it may say something about you, but IMO is could also (and often does) say more about how you fit. I do think trust, openess and honesty, are functions of how well you fit someone, and cannot be simply chosen to do."<P>SnL,<P>I've come to conclusion that you, SnL, use your situation, experiences and relationship ... "YOUR FEELINGS" and draw the assumption everyone else in this mess falls into the same category as you, Thinker and OW.<P>snl...I only draw that conclusion if I think it is true. I do thing there are psychological principles that affect us all, I cannot see how it can be otherwise. I differentiate between my feelings that may be sitiuational, and my feelings that arise I think from more general truths. I may err of course, I realize that, but so may anyone, maybe even you in this post. So what do we do? Try to guess what will offend someone, but in fact may help us or others, do we self censor? Or do we simply practice politeness and reasonable sensitivity, and let each be responsible for their own feelings. That is always the problem in a board dealing with volatile issues. It may be distressful to hear someone suggest your ws never really trusted you, but it may also me true jo. I do think trust and honesty (as do the harleys) are the bedrock of true intimacy, and I think it is very rare. I would be willing to bet every ws did not trust their bs with the truth. Heck the affair itself proves that, or would never have happened cause the pre A stuff would have been revealed and discussed. <P>jo....Or is it perhaps if you include the entire world in your rationalizations and weak conclusions that it makes you feel justified and less guilty? i.e., "EVERYONE" that cheats never loved or trusted their spouse in the first place so their marriage was imminently doomed from the beginning, just like me.<P>snl...Jo you unfairly paraphrased what I said, to make your point. And you added in a disrespectful judgement (rationalization), I have repeatedly addressed that specifically. I don't need to understand or excuse the past. Never have. Nor do I seek validation from anyone (in the normal course of life). But I do seek others opinions re the issues that concern me, and so I ask questions, make observations, explore conjecture, so I can finally make a choice, and feel it is as informed as possible. The truth honesty issue is a big one for me, and always (IMO) been a big problem in my marriage. So I replied with my thoughts.<P>jo....SnL, I have a request. Knowing most of the people here are in the worse anguish of their lives, <P>snl...And I am not?<P>jo...could you kindly pare down your blanket statements to referencing solely your particular situation? It would illustrate a degree of respect and compassion for your fellow posters.<P>snl...That would be purposeless and defeat the whole point of looking for larger truths, and wide spread behavioural models. The vows folks do not seem concerned that saying such things apply to all (and that those who disagree are pathetic [so some say]). I think there is a tremendous amount of fog on the part of bs, and an almost manic desire at times to preserve marriage at all costs, and not nearly enough hard look at the psychological nuts and bolts of intimate relationships so as to understand what happened to fail a marriage, for the purpose of assessing how hard (and in what way exactly) to try to repair (or even to repair at all). That is part of what I need to work through in my own case, otherwise I don't know what to do. I am finding that being handed a list of EN stuff to do by my wife is just giving her ammunition to belittle me if I do not peform right. She has screamed at me several times today that I am doing nothing (an untruth) she latter modified to not doing enough, I am being judged, and I am becoming very resentful about this whole process. I get very little, essentially none, positive feedback, I am expected to just do it, and do it cause she deserves it, and do it right. But then this has been the pattern of our marriage, I never do it right, that way she is always in the morally/ethically/whatever position. The point being I as one of the anguished participants here want to hear everything someone has to say, but politiely. I'd hate to think someone said something only applied to them when they really think maybe applied to everyone (in general), those are different thoughts, and I would prefer the whole thought.There is a difference (for example) between one saying vows work for them, but not everyone, and saying I think vows apply to all, and ignoring them causes you negative consequences.<P>jo...I realize I do not have the right to curtail what you write, this is simply a request.<P>snl...I understand that. And I do try to be sensitive. And I realize I have a somewhat more radical issues with marriage reconcilliation, I think we don't do enough work to understand what happend, and why in an affair, and jump right to restoration, they do kinda go hand in hand, but my problem is how to deal with the motivation, and being able to trust my wife emotionally, as well as why do it at all (the fitting stuff), so I kinda do that thing, while others do what they do, so we have a full range of opinion I guess. IMO it makes good sense to for a bs to consider the love they thought existed was an illusion, and that they really need to understand the ws did not necessarily leave just cause some laundary list of en was not met, that is way to simplisitic. And that maybe they should recover by keeping high standards, and leaveing the ws (and vice versa) cause the ws may not be good marriage material in the first place. This is not a game, but it sometimes feels like it, what do I have to do to win my ws back, well, maybe you really should consider whether they are worth winning back. Whether they will ever be open and honest, whether they ever loved you, whether they can ever love you, or whether they (or the bs) are self-serving controllers, or whatever.

Thank you Resilient<BR>I find this kind of rationalization for affairs insulting to say the least. Some of us are dealing with the ramifications of affairs and I can assure you that there are none that would not change things if they could and have indeed tried with all they are worth. <BR>To insinuate that there was never love or honestly is .. yes... **Crap**

SnL,<P>You are right, there was a disrespectful judgment in my post to you. I do apologize.<P>I intend to write more, altho right now I need to leave from work. I would just quickly like to say that I am sorry to hear you and Thinker are having a rough time of it. Perhaps a discussion of POJA regarding compatability is in order.<P>Jo

This reminds me of an uncle I have in Europe. He is poor, and when he can't afford something (such as a car) he tries to rationalize in his mind that he doesn't really need a car, anyway. <P>Just because your love for your wife has waned and become "poor", SNL, it doesn't mean that it never existed. Her love for you, also, I am sure has waned. But even so, you sound less than wise when you are so assured that the love never existed.<P>But... in reference to honesty/openness, I partially agree with you, that if it doesn't exist now, that it most likely was found severely wanting before. The distance between my wife isn't something new, is what I think you're saying. That distance, and lack of openness, has always been there. It is the same distance between any two strangers. But it is a gap that should have been closed as our relationship progressed. It never did, and that's why she removed herself from me, emotionally.<P>ThornedRose, I initiated an email conversation about this very topic today, with my wife. I don't want to have to rely on it forever. yes, this is how we met and fell in love, and I have no doubt that she finds it easier to communicate her feelings in that way, than in face-to-face conversation. But maybe this type of correspondence will help jump start us into a real, open, honest way of talking that we've never really had.<P>It's the only hope I have right now.<P>I've read the Harley's information about internet relationships and he covers a lot of this same stuff - the transition from internet communication to real, face-to-face conversation. Check it out, if you get the chance.