I have only posted on here a few times but generally I have only read other posts to try to find support and answers. I feel my story is so long, but I will try to summarize. <P>My W had an EA and a limited PA (kissing, hand-holding etc) 3 years ago. We tried without counselling (she didn't want any)to work through our problems during the last 2-1/2 years. Discussions became nasty arguments into the wee-hours of the morning. We always made up from these fights, thinking each one would be the last. <P>I did not know anything about MB until just a few months ago. I never felt I needed to since we always seemed to get over our fights. Now I feel guilty. I made those demands of her. Get over this guy, get him out of your mind, make me first, etc. It was tough feeling I had to compete. The more I argue, the better I made him look. He certainly wouldn't treat her that way.<P>My wife begged me to move from here with her and the family. I felt I couldn't. I tried. I applied and was accepted at different jobs. I was too afraid to move and uproot my kids from their school and for me to change my career to simply move her from temptation. I was too afraid to do so many things without some spoken committment from her. She would never promise to leave him alone. There were a few incidents where she would either phone him or see him somewhere.<P>Again, I was not aware of Dr. Harley and MB. I read in one column where he recommends putting away your pride and moving to save a marriage. I am not sure I could have if I tried. I took one trip to look at a community where we could move and nearly had a nervous breakdown thinking about moving. I was so insecure about giving up so much when I feared my wife would not emotionally give up the OM. <P>She would guarantee that she would never get involved with anyone else, but wouldn't rule out further involvement with this particular OM. Something about him was special I guess. I sure don't see it.<P>So where am I now? My wife moved to a house that her Mom and stepfather bought for her in town. Out two kids go back and forth from her house to mine on a weekly basis. I am making new friends and doing a lot of searching. I am basically doing a plan-B without the letter so many talk about.<P>Please do not take this offensively, but I must admit, I am not real sure about posting here. I realize I am among people who can relate, but I worry about relying on opinions from those who are also suffering like me. Does misery love company? Can we help each other fight out of the holes we feel we are in. Do people contemplating divorce seek support from others feeling the same way making it easier for them to accomplish?<P>My intentions, tough as they are, is to try to wait for my W to see what she is missing by leaving me and to let her discover whether this other dude (presently in the process of divorcing his wife) is what she really thinks she wants. Sometimes she would say she wondered what it would be like not to depend on any one, but based on her track record before we were married 14 yrs ago, I don't know if she can live with out some by her side.<P>I am trying to discover who I am or who I was as an independent person- though it is much easier said than done. I am able to perform the tasks required of my kids, job, and home. I can still eat and sleep fairly well and I do exercise. Mornings are the hardest part of my day, though I don't know why that is. My fear is high at this time and I find myself so tempted to call her for help that she is incapable of giving. I did a few time s after she first moved out. The rejection and her inability to try to be compassionate made it worse. <P>By evening I feel stronger. Fear diminishes and I actually start to believe that though I know I made mistakes prior to her A (she says I wouldn't listen to her dreams and the OM would) and made a great mistakes after discovery of the A, I can't accept all the blame as hard as she tries to lay it on me.<P>I see my W at different functions where the kids are from a distance which sometimes hurts awful bad. Her family calls and sends me birthday cards and other things. They are obviously upset at the situation too, but I do not engage in conversation relevant to our situation for fear of putting them in the middle of things.<P>This is alot of rambling I know. Perhaps someone can relate and suggest some things. I read this site to find some comfort, but I must admit I don't always get that. Sometimes I feel so guilty after realizing all of the mistakes I made and perhaps continue to make. The discussion of whether guilt is a productive emotion or not left me undecided.<P>Hello to all. I sure would like to start climbing out of this hole and feel like the future can be brighter.

Hi, and welcome, again!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Here's my opinion, and it is simply that...<P>I think you should begin a different approach...<P>I think you should read this link again, very carefully: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A>. <P>You are NOT doing Plan B without the letter-- instead you are simply ignoring her, and she doesn't understand that you are trying to preserve your love that is left (which is the reason for Plan B). <P>I suggest that you begin a Plan A effort, so that she knows that you're willing to save the marriage, and she realizes that your marriage is a safe place to return to.<P>Begin to meet her <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> whenever possible, and avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> whenever possible. <P>I'd also suggest that you check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A>, and perhaps call the Harley's.<P>I wish you a restored marriage.

Sheryl,<P>Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.<P>I have to be honest. I have read the plan A, plan B descriptions and as a so-called educated person, I still don't know how to apply plan A in the current situation. Off and on I did throughout the last 3 years. I tried to listen more, to do things she liked to do, and to listen to her dreams. She always talked about moving out west to a cabin by a lake in the mountains. I realize it was a dream, but now it is what she wants to become reality. I struggled with how to make such a dream come true. Maybe I was too selfish, but I found it difficult to accomplish this and maintain the type of life and career I was accustomed to (hence the constant guilt I feel for perhaps putting my life first).<P>I thought we arrived at a compromise to suit both our dreams when we bought a piece of land here in the midwest and built a new log-cabin style home. The whole process and adventure excited her. We lived there for less than two years (I hadn't even completely finished the house) before the A started.<P>Can you suggest someways I can apply plan A, especially when she has suggested the marriage has run its course? For instance, her house does not have a stove. Do I find one for her or let her find her own. How do I convey my interest in staying married when she does not really want to talk about anything serious except where the kids are concerned? <P>After we first separated she took the kids on a vacation out west to visit her father and his wife. I wrote a long letter to her explaining how I wanted to stay together and that I realized the long, unrelentless discussions had to end. I sent her a dozen roses. <BR> <BR>During a phone call, she threatened to stay out west fearful of returning to the situation back home. She said she wanted me, but only if I moved there. I was terrified. I called my employers and asked what the consequences would be if I were to just up and quit. The price was high. I struggled with the idea, wondering whether such a chance might end my career. She said I could work for her father there with no promise of a steady salary, no insurance, and we could live with them. She said to put the place up for sale, gather what I needed, and get out there. Again, I couldn't, as much as I realized that to do so might put myself and my kids in jeopardy. She reluctantly came back, but not to my house.<P>Again, this is just to explain what I have been through. As my counsellor says, a very multi-faceted diamond. <P>If you could make it clear to me what acts or deeds I should attempt in an effort to plan-A, I certainly would like to try. Any effort at reconcilliation seems so one-sided right now. She has said she would like to end our marriage, but not right now. Her philosophy is to take one day at a time. That works for some, but the limbo I am in is terribly uncomfortable. <P>When I did call her on those rough mornings, I did make it clear she was welcome to come home any time, we could get some professional help to try to learn to meet each others needs (by the way, is moving to a cabin out west a need?). I think she took it as grovelling and typically rejected any effort on my part to work things out. I asked her whether she was in touch with the OM. She said she had talked with him in sort of way; in person or on the phone she wouldn't say; it was none of my business anyway she said.<P>By the way, I think it is worth noting here. When I accepted that moving might be a good way to salvage our marriage, she felt it necessary to go meet with him to tell him goodbye. I didn't know why that was necessary and the act made me mad at her again. Again, pre-MB, but still, was that necessary for her to do at what appeared to be at my expense. Giving up on traditional emotions based on what I feel is right and wrong is tough to do. Should I have been grateful that was what she did? Am I hanging on to all of the things I did and feel guilty about now? Should I let them go and chalk it up to learning and experience?<P>I am a quick learner when it comes to many subjects, but matters of the heart seem to come slow to me in this time of crisis. At times I feel like giving up. But what does that mean? I couldn't file for a divorce now . I don't want to. Such decisions are too important to conclude so quickly. <P>I still love her very much. I ache when I see her walking with the kids or driving around in her car, or wherever. Sometimes I wonder if I just miss being needed or miss who she was. I don't recall having those doubts before she left me.<P>I am ready to read further input.

Originally posted by modelt:<BR><STRONG><BR>Please do not take this offensively, but I must admit, I am not real sure about posting here. I realize I am among people who can relate, but I worry about relying on opinions from those who are also suffering like me. Does misery love company? Can we help each other fight out of the holes we feel we are in. Do people contemplating divorce seek support from others feeling the same way making it easier for them to accomplish?</STRONG><P>No offense taken. I can see your concern with this. I think we are all here to save our marriage, and with that it, we all want to see others continue their marriages as we want for ourselfs. I don't believe I have once seen anyone here encourage another to divorce their spouce. This BB is for saving marriages not ending them, so don't worry about that.<BR> <BR><STRONG><BR>My intentions, tough as they are, is to try to wait for my W to see what she is missing by leaving me and to let her discover whether this other dude (presently in the process of divorcing his wife) is what she really thinks she wants.</STRONG><P>I think you should listen to Nyneve, you are not in a good plan B because you don't sound as if you did a good plan A. So therefore she only sees coming back to a marriage that wasn't a safe place, it was not a happy place before she moved out. You need to show her you want the marriage and show her a place where she will be happy when and if she choses to come back.<BR> <BR><STRONG><BR>I read this site to find some comfort, but I must admit I don't always get that. Sometimes I feel so guilty after realizing all of the mistakes I made and perhaps continue to make. <BR></STRONG><P>We have all made mistakes...that is why we are here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] That is why we continue to come her, to correct the mistakes we have made and continue to make. This is not only a great place for support, but it is a great place to learn how to make a great marriage, and learn to correct our mistakes.<P>Good luck, and I hope you continue to come here and participate.

<STRONG>Originally posted by modelt:<P>I have to be honest. I have read the plan A, plan B descriptions and as a so-called educated person, I still don't know how to apply plan A in the current situation. Off and on I did throughout the last 3 years. I tried to listen more, to do things she liked to do, and to listen to her dreams. She always talked about moving out west to a cabin by a lake in the mountains. I realize it was a dream, but now it is what she wants to become reality. I struggled with how to make such a dream come true. Maybe I was too selfish, but I found it difficult to accomplish this and maintain the type of life and career I was accustomed to (hence the constant guilt I feel for perhaps putting my life first).</STRONG><P>It sounds like you want your life and career more than your marriage. Have you sat down and really thought about what you want in life? What are your goals, where do you want to be in 5, 10 or 15 years??? Who do you want to be with? What is most important to you, money and career, or your personal life and your W, and your life together?<P>I only whish I could afford to move right now, we are planning to move across the country, but we have to wait about 2 years to get the finances in order. You sound like you are completely capapable, but you are unwilling because your life outside your marriage is more important? This could be your new begining in your life and marriage, it is an opertunity, IMO. <P><STRONG><BR>Can you suggest someways I can apply plan A, especially when she has suggested the marriage has run its course? For instance, her house does not have a stove. Do I find one for her or let her find her own. How do I convey my interest in staying married when she does not really want to talk about anything serious except where the kids are concerned? </STRONG><P>I am no expert, on this but after reading a lot, it seems that you probably don't want to push seriouse conversations. Take her out on dates and just have fun. Show her a good time, and yes buy her a stove. Act like you are dating her for the first time. You wouldn't be talking about heavy conversation when dating, so don't engage in this type of conversation with her untill she is ready or when she brings it up. Be as nice as possible and when she upsets you or makes you mad vent her or to a friend, don't blow up on her, be nice to her. <P><STRONG><BR>During a phone call, she threatened to stay out west fearful of returning to the situation back home. She said she wanted me, but only if I moved there. I was terrified. I called my employers and asked what the consequences would be if I were to just up and quit. The price was high. I struggled with the idea, wondering whether such a chance might end my career. She said I could work for her father there with no promise of a steady salary, no insurance, and we could live with them. She said to put the place up for sale, gather what I needed, and get out there. Again, I couldn't, as much as I realized that to do so might put myself and my kids in jeopardy. She reluctantly came back, but not to my house.</STRONG><P>This sounds like you are nearly willing to move with her, the only thing that holds you back is insurance and money. I am sure you can work on finding a job with benifits and good money in the area she wants to move to. If you actually looked into the possibility of moving without much planning, I am sure you could work with your W and plan the move together and find a good job before you make a move. It sounds like you know the answer to what you want in life, you just seem to be unwilling to work on it until she is already gone. You say you were afraid that by making less money and having no benifits could put you and the kids in jeoperdy, do you not think that being seperated is hard on the kids, and you. Isn't that more difficult money wise?<P><STRONG><BR>When I did call her on those rough mornings, I did make it clear she was welcome to come home any time, we could get some professional help to try to learn to meet each others needs (by the way, is moving to a cabin out west a need?). I think she took it as grovelling and typically rejected any effort on my part to work things out.</STRONG> <P>I am in a situation where I am not happy where I live, I don't like the big city, and I have wanted to move for years. Perhaps your W isn't happy with where she lives and would like to start a new life in another area...and it sounds like she wants to start the new life with you. If you don't want to perhaps she sees that as you not wanting a life with her. So, yes I would say that is a rejection in a way to work on the marriage.<P><STRONG><BR>By the way, I think it is worth noting here. When I accepted that moving might be a good way to salvage our marriage, she felt it necessary to go meet with him to tell him goodbye. I didn't know why that was necessary and the act made me mad at her again. Again, pre-MB, but still, was that necessary for her to do at what appeared to be at my expense. Giving up on traditional emotions based on what I feel is right and wrong is tough to do. Should I have been grateful that was what she did? Am I hanging on to all of the things I did and feel guilty about now? Should I let them go and chalk it up to learning and experience?<BR></STRONG><P>I don't think plan A is giving up on your emotions. I would have been mad as hell if W went to say goodby to OM. Plan A is not showing your spouce that you are upset, vent elswhere, not to her. If you are upset with her get away and talk to someone else about it or just go for a walk. That would be a lot to ask anyone...to give up your emotions especially when it comes to your spouce having an A.<P><STRONG><BR>I am a quick learner when it comes to many subjects, but matters of the heart seem to come slow to me in this time of crisis. At times I feel like giving up. But what does that mean? I couldn't file for a divorce now . I don't want to. Such decisions are too important to conclude so quickly.</STRONG><P>I totally agree, it took time to get married, so don't get divorced on a whim, give it time and work on it. I sometimes want to give up. Give yourself a time line 6 months, a year before you make a decision.

modelt,<BR>I am the WS and I think you should read alot of Dr. Harley's books. Like "His needs, her needs" I wish somebody would have gave that book to us when we married. I llike the way he words everything. You can understand what he is trying to say and he puts it in laymens terms [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You should also try "Surviving an Affair" This is a very helpful book.<P>You talk about So much dammage has been done. I had 4 A's 4 yrs ago and my H didn't know until June. D-day #1 was June 18 and D-day #2 was Sept.11. I have brought him a lot of pain and dammage to my family and friends. But we both come to MB's for the support. I think I have better friends here at MB's then my own friends here in person. That stinks sometimes cause we all need a real hug but the ((hugs)) like this are still helpful.<P>I know that since D-day my H and I have taken time together alone and that really helps both of us. At least one day a week we find something that the two of us can do alone. The problem is agreeing on what to do. So each week one of us gets to pick. Today I want to play putt-putt. Next week my H will want to probably go hiking or shooting. So take time out that you both enjoy. Good luck. Sherry

Hi there,<BR>I just wanted to add that in order to effectively start the Plan A, you and your wife would need to fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire as well as the Love Buster Questionnaire. You can read about those concepts on this site, then download the questionnaires and see if she is up to filling them out.<P>Plan A is when you do your best to meet your spouse's most important emotional needs (you would need to know what they are first tho), and avoid love busters (same thing--you need to know what those are by filling out the questionnaires together).<P>No damage is too difficult for God to repair.

Hi, <P>Just a quick note. My take on what you wrote is that your W may be trying to set you up to fail. <P>For some reason she always seems to put herself (her wants)just out of your reach causing you to take risks. You mentioned 2 in your post, are there more? <P>If that is the case, be careful. Do not put you and your family at risk over someone who is willing to risk all for someone else and not you or your family. <P>Why would a W want her H to leave a job to an unsecure one? Of what benefit is that to her family? Still in contact with the OM? Hm..... Just my thought but I encourage you to be careful. <P>Be available but cautious. Maybe asking her to list the benefits so you can undersatnd how her suggestion would work out for the better. This requires her to provide reasons for her requests. That may help you see her real motives. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.

Do you feel and does your W where you live is more important than who you live with? A change of scene is great but you take YOU with you, wherever you go.<P>There are no guarantees that she will be happier with you, out west. Maybe she's looking for a big gesture on your part.