Hello all. I hope this finds you all well. It's been a rough couple of days here. I moved back home last Tuesday after a month long separation. It was a half-hearted offer but I felt it was all I was likely to get for a good long while and I figured it would make Plan A easier. Things went well for a few days and the weekend was OK but now I wonder if it was a good choice. Monday and last night got very ugly. <BR> I don't even remember how it started Monday, I think she wanted to talk about some things and it snowballed. We hashed everything it got very heated and many hurtful things were said. We can't talk about any of my needs or issues without it getting ugly. Apparently it's selfish of me to have a problem with her A. Tuesday she punched by buttons and I reacted true to form. Another ugly evening! Most of the time I can't even talk to her! All I want to do is talk like adults but the mockery and snide remarks start flying and I get frustrated and I jump back. After 22 years, she knows all my buttons and she plays me like a virtuoso. I know there's no winning these situations yet I seem to get sucked into them every time. There's so many contradictions in her words and her deeds. She *****es that I think it's all about me one minute and in the same breath say that I'm supposed to be working on my depression not our M and that I need to "fix" myself first. <BR> Today I just feel fractured. I think if anyone was to look at me hard I'd shatter. All i see in my mind's eye is the anger and contempt in my W's eyes as she said "so I had an A, so what get over it". So who is this person and where the hell is my W? I see a cycle starting to develop though. It seems we'll have a few good days and then I feel like I get "ambushed" and we're right back to square 1! I know she's pushing me away just as hard as she can. After living with an angry depressed man for over 10 years, how can I blame her. She's very afraid that I'll sink back into that blackness. So am I for that matter. It's so very confusing. I see signs and snatches of the woman I love from time to time. I see her smile and It actually touches her eyes sometimes. It melts my heart. I see her in her chair sewing and it feels nearly "normal". i see her hurt and I want to hold her and make it all go away. I've been plan Aing my butt off and it gets harder to keep my taker at bay. I feel so alone and hopeless. The hopelessness is doubly troubling in that it's so very familiar yet now it's only associated with the only aspect of my life that it wasn't associated with during the depression. It's hard to resolve myself to our current reality. I suppose only fully coming out of the depression 4 weeks ago may have something to do with that. She's watched our marriage slide away for 10 years! Of late, I seem to hear a nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me I'm too late. The last bout resulted in her refusing to have any involvement with my counseling, not being even willing to discuss MC and complete isolation. Yesterday was also the first time I asked her to leave in all seriousness and the first time she mentioned lawyers. Yet not an hour later she's chatting with me and laughing at a movie on TV! What the hell is that! I feel it all slipping away and I&#8217;m helpless to prevent it.<BR> I do need to back off a bit. I need to stop pressuring her for a choice as well. I do have a tendency to be very intense! It seems to be even more prevalent since I'm now fully "awake" for lack of a better term. How does one go about backing off and allowing space? All I want to do is hold her! I wait for her to come to bed at night since it's the only time she touches me at all. We still sleep the way we always have, curled up together most of the night. Maybe I'm laying things on a bit too heavy. The "Tigger on speed" reference she uses for me now I suppose is a good indication... Sorry for the long vent. I guess my questions would be&#8230; How does one back off and allow space without allowing withdrawal? How does one prevent LBing when none of your needs are being met? She did say that she&#8217;s only heard from OM once in the last week. That&#8217;s a far cry from the everyday it was not too long ago. I also think she may finally see that, while the OM is a central concern for me, I do understand that he&#8217;s not the core of our problems and we have much work to do after he goes away. Sorry again for the length of this rant and thanks again for all the support!

Hi, <P>You gotta give the space for them to hang the A. Right now, both the OP and Ws tend focus on how to hang the BS. Plays it like a game. You know some even practice how to instigate trouble. I think some OWs even coach the Ws. Not sure if OMs do the same. <P>Knowledge is power and power is knowledge. So now that you know, use this info to your advantage. This will refocus your thoughts more on improving yourself and less on how to break the A. Let them do that after all they started it without you right? <P>WS used to pester me for a D. I finally gave in and said yes. Oh with such confidence that OW got scared. Told H to watch out since I had become according to the OW, cold and business like. OW could no longer predict me. Oh yes, OW no longer could control me. <P>So all that talk about how we control them? That is reverse fogese. To be translasted into whatever the wS accuses you of is really about them. For a while, I took the WS's accusations and repeated them back to him. My son did this when he was about 2 years old. That little guy really got to me..... he he he and I learned how quickly a child learns to be manipulative. 2 years old. Guess what? It worked. Reverse fogese confused the WS and frustrated the OW. It led to the OW LBing over and over again. Eventually led to H trying to come home and after 3 futile attempts the last one is that he has come home and showing signs of recovery. Oh, I still wonder but ya gotta read my older posts to know what I have been through. Trust me, my imagination is not that great, the stuff was crazy. I could have never made it up. But hey, it did happen and we did survive. <P>OW? She is still out there possibly reecking havoc on someone else. There have been periodic attempts to get back at me and get H back in her bed. Maybe the 'ol gray mare (the OW in my case), aint what she used to be. I sure hope so. <P>In the meantime, you hang in there. <P>L.<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Thanks Orchid,<BR> As usual, your words are comforting and thought provoking. I&#8217;ve been doing a group of reading of late and I realize that I do need to back off. I need to start working on myself a bit more. God knows I have enough issues to focus on! J I tend to be very analytical and trying to make any sense or glean any discernable pattern or logic from this mess is making me crazy.<P> Tuesday I was a basket case and it was all going down the tubes. Yesterday, we&#8217;re back on the up swing and near the top of the arc (as far as it swings these days at any rate). I got a phone call from her at work yesterday just to ask if she could put things back on the table I had just refinished. She was very cheerful and sounded like herself. I cautiously went home and was greeted with the same attitude. We had a very nice dinner with our daughter, talked for 2 hours on her plans for finishing the decorating of our home. VERY big deal! That is one of the things she has always prided herself on, making our home very comfortable and inviting. She calls it the &#8220;big hug&#8221;; it&#8217;s quite accurate really. Walking into our home has always felt like getting a big hug. Those efforts were also one of the first things that went away as our problems developed. Things got even better from there and we had a very pleasant evening. <P> So, up and down&#8230; round and round&#8230; I halfway wonder if my demeanor when I walk in the door acts as a catalyst and determines her reaction. I thought about that and it makes sense&#8230; When I was fully in the clutches of the depression, she says she used to watch me when I walked in after work to gauge how she needed to respond and if it was safe for the kids to go on playing. God that hurts! I turned into my father and didn&#8217;t even know it! At any rate, it makes sense that she would continue to do that even as only an associative habit&#8230; I figure I&#8217;ll see if me being up beat and happy will reflect on her mood directly. Can&#8217;t hurt&#8230; <P> I also definitely have to stop with the hurt and pained attitude. God knows it does hurt but it&#8217;s a massive LB for her. It&#8217;s tough to do. I suppose I&#8217;m quite simple emotionally&#8230; in my world there&#8217;s not much an &#8220;I love you&#8221; and a big hug can&#8217;t cure. J I see her pain and I feel compelled to &#8220;love it away&#8221;&#8230; I&#8217;m thinking that I need to spend a bit more time on me and do some things. There&#8217;s a lot of people I still need to reconnect with after &#8220;waking up&#8221;. I figure at this point it can&#8217;t hurt at all to give her all the space she needs. I only want her back really if she honestly wants to be here. Thanks again for your support!!!

sofar...<BR>You got some great advice from Orchid!! (shes so dang smart!!!...)<BR>I'll just try to add my perspective...I think you two are in what I call the "oozing" stage. The A is like an infection in your M that is full of venomous poison and puss! The effects of everything that has happened, on both ends, has been allowed to fester underneath the surface for so long, that true to form, it has all come to a head. Now all the poison and venom is oozing out. You know the quote, "Everything gets worse before it gets better", right? Well, one thing that you have going for you is that, at this point, even though negative and hurtful, you two are communicating. There are so many here that are trapped in totally shutting down, that nothing gets communicated. For whatever reason, things always seem to have to go this route with couples that have any chance. There is alot of hurt and anger and frustration in both of you. Try to be more in tune with yourself, and don't let those things come out quite so freely, so fast and so often. <P>I think there has to be some withdrawal, on both your parts. She has incurred a big loss as a WS, and you have too, as a BS. Both of your feelings matter! You have to have respect for each others feelings and realize the losses you have both incurred. I am not justifying the affair, but there needs to be a new foundation of respect laid for your relationship to go ahead, together. Focus on you and her, and less on OM for starters. What can you do for each other. Recognize how the loss of OM affects her, and in return realize how to use that to your advantage. Listen to what she says about how the OM made her feel, what he did for her, etc. and learn to replace what OM did, with what you can do! She will turn to you more and more. Will there still be some LBing? Most likely, but it will lessen with time. <P>Write down alot of your EN, take the EN questionnaire together, write down things that you normally LB about for yourself. Many times, we just want to get it out of our system. Don't hammer her with it, but don't let it fester. Take those moments, like sleeping together curled up at nite, and build on those. Those are your foundation to springboard to a better understanding of each other. Set aside a time to talk, maybe once a week on what to focus on in the coming week to help satisfy one or two of your unmet needs, rather than trying to conquer them all at once. I have found, baby steps, like you see in so many of the other posts. Don't expect immediate results, but revel in even the smallest of conquests. Best of luck!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]