I have been doing a lot of reading here lately. And I am really disappointed.<P>It is about choices. It is about maintaining a commitment made, in most cases, before God. It is about keeping promises. It is about promising and working on building a life together. It is about raising the children you made together. <P>It is about hopes and dreams and the future. It is about communication, and demonstrating love to one another. It is about cherishing and loving. It is about building a family. It is about choosing to love. <P>It is about a business, with assests and debits. It is about building a financial future together. It is about working together for the betterment of both. It is about support, financial and emotional and physical.<P>I am reading and hearing about so much CRAP!!!!<P>Are we as a society lowering our standards, justifying immoral behavior. I am so sick of the ME rationalizations. The lies, the deceit, the hurt that accompanies an affair. It is awful.<P>Look at the damage you are doing to your partners and to your families. It is so sad. <P>There is no excuse for an affair. Weaknesses or not, unmet needs----those are all excuses. If you are so unhappy---do something before the affair. Work on your marriage before there is too much pain and hurt to recover from. <P><BR>There are very few cases where marriages are so bad they should be ended. Commitment is important and communication skills need to be developed--but quit making excuses for having affairs. It is a lack of moral judgment. We are taught from the time we are little that lying and deceit are wrong. Why do you justify it because you think you are in love? <P>SNL....grow up. You made a commitment to your wife. Either honor it or move on. Stop your psychological babble. Most of the time...what you write makes me literally sick. When you got married, you were to forsake all others. There was a reason for that. Marriage or living with someone all the time is hard work---and yes at times, the passion and love wears thin. But there are other times, it is incredibly great. <P>I wish my husband had not made the choices he has. He has destroyed our family, my confidence, our future, our finances. All because he has such a big ego and couldn't keep his d***in his pants. I am sick of listening to the rationalizations. I am sick of taking the blame for all of this misery time after time. <P>I am so sorry I devoted 25 years of my life on him. What a waste. If your wife has any sense...she will say the same if you continue to spout the same trash that you have been spouting.<P>It is about commitment, integrity, honesty and loyalty. Without the above, you aren't anything. <P>I am sorry for the vent...but my H has left me with a huge mess, 4 kids to raise, not enough money, and I owe my lawyer $1500 so far. We are bouncing cks all over the place, my daughter needs to order graduation stuff, my son's birthday is on Friday, my car broke down. My H wants me to take off the restraining order or "I am hurting the kids". Of course he is moving here on Fri with his bimbo. <P>I can't believe that I have lived honorably, loved and supported him through 21 years in the military and and 4 years before that, raised our kids practically on our own--and I am left with nothing. Everyone keeps telling me things will get better. Each day seems to be getting worse.<P>And now he is walzing around here acting like everythings fine. <P>I am so sick of living like this. I am tired of taking the blame...because I know I have loved him and supported him. I have never lied or cheated or deceived him. I feel like I am continually hit in the head. <P>My anniversary and my birthday on Oct 1st were horrible because of his behavior. Tomorrow is his birthday...and I know he expects us to laud him. Well, guess what...it is not going to happen...if he is sad...so be it. He doesn't care when he hurts anyone else. For years we have celebrated his special day. He and my son have birthdays 2 days apart. I hope he is hurting tomorrow....it wouldn't be near enough hurt tho. <P>I hate being so negative...I am just so tired of this hell. I want my life back. Please keep me and my kids in your prayers.

MNM:<P>Bravo!!!!<P>You're inside my head exactly. My latest choice of words with my H (WS) is just waht you were saying "CHOICES". <P>He choice to cheat..nothing or no one made him do it. He choice to put himself ahead of all others.<P>I like you have remained the ever faithful wife. I took my vows seriously. For "better or worse" says it all. I made the commitment & sacrifies no matter what.<P>Did he? Nope.<P>Did any of these WS? Nope.<P>So why are we suppossed to caudle them & make them feel better about a "choice" they made.<P>It's sickening. And letting them get away with it just continues the sick cycle.<P><BR>MNM: Sorry life sucks right now. Mine too.<P><BR>Married 16 yrs<BR>4 kids 15,14,10,6<BR>D-Day #1 Feb 2001<BR>D-Day #2 Mar 2001<BR>H has been having PA/EA since 1990<BR>4 different A's that I know of<BR>Oh well...some people have NO Morals

wow!! That was great!! My husband was the most moral person in the world and beratd anyone that had affairs. It just happened he says and he didn't mean to hurt me- which I believe he really didn't set out to do. I was very moral too and swore I would wait for my H to want only me again but I was with someone too.You are exactly right...it is about choices. We choose to do right or wrong . We choose to feel sorry for ourselves and we choose to make our marriages work or not. I am choosing my marriage and if my husband doesn't then that is his choice, NOT mine.

MnM You go Girl! I think you have just summed up what I am feeling. Yes it is a choice and obviously our WS's have made some really bad choices that not only affect them but their spouses, children family and friends. I certainly did not ask for any of this nor do I deserve it and neither do my children. I am sorry that life sucks for you right now. Mine is no better believe me. Trying to raise 3 kids, go to work, in a financial mess b/c of all this crap, and H still doesn't know what he wants. Well I for one have had enough! Hang in there you are not alone. I know better days are ahead for all of us. At least that's what I keep telling myself. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <BR><<<Hugs>>><BR>C

Way to go MnM I agree with you 100 percent, it is about choices my H choose all the wrong things, I also am juggling 3 kids 2 jobs and a financial mess, My life is very difficult and depressing right now. I feel like e-mailing what you posted to my WH. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Love Sally

MNM,<P>Thanks for your post. My thoughts , also.<BR>I'm sorry for your situation. I also know that you will get through this, and you will be stronger for this. You have the basis for future happiness. You can heal. On the other hand, your H may never regain peace of mind.<P>Have you wondered why so many people think that just because it's something they WANT (i.e., the OP), they have a right to get it no matter what? Since when do we have the right to demand whatever we want, anyway?<P>Life is a series of choices, and choices have consequences. You're 100% right. An affair is a choice. It's what someone wants. And for one reason or another, the WS doesn't care about anyone but him/herself. This we all sadly know.<P>Take care everyone and stay strong. <BR>Estes

Thanks everyone. Your understanding helps me feel a little better.<P>I just feel like I can't handle anymore tonight. I had an appt. with my lawyer's secretary tonight to go over the interogatories...and she hit me with this huge bill. <P>I am struggling to make ends meet anyway and I haven't even seen the lawyer since August.<P>My H called my two little ones while I was at the lawyers. He told Kyle they can't wait to take him out for his birthday. He promised that he would buy him all sorts of stuff and take him to Chucky Cheeses...if mom will let him.<P>I really don't want him near us this weekend. He has destroyed our family...and doesn't see it. <P>He accuses me of hiding money....RIGHT. He is the one wining and dining his OW. He is the one who has been staying in hotels for 1 1/2 years instead of sharing a place with other pilots. He is the one taking all the money from his paycheck that should be used to pay off bills. I can't stand it anymore.<P>What have I done to deserve this? He is cold, unemotional and could care less about what he has done to our family. Now he is going to flaunt this B**** in front of our faces. I don't know if I can handle anymore. Why did this happen? How could I have married such a jerk?????<P>I did read a post by SNL earlier this week that actually did make sense. It was about sociopaths. The counselor I saw this summer said that Jim was a sociopath based on his behavior and emails he had sent to me. Now, reading SNL's post, it described him perfectly. Why did I deny it for so long? <P> I hope something good starts to occur for us soon. I can't handle anymore pain.

Louser,<P>Was just reading through the posts again. Our kids are about the same ages. My are 18, 15, 10 and 7. They really keep you busy, don't they? <P>Our life has always been hectic. My husband's career in the AF was all encompassing, and the kids are really active. It is hard being the only one here.<P>I think I am really exhausted tonight. You know, everyone feels for me....but our lives go on and the expectations are still there. I guess I have to learn that I can't keep this life up anymore. It is going to kill me. Have to go run and get homework done and the kids to bed. Take care everyone!!

Way to say it. My thoughts exactly. People need to follow their words and promises, it is a huge integrity issue. I wish my husband would see this...the man he used to be, the man I still think he is at his core would agree...he is very loyal. Just not to me right now. And I am offering my love, commitment and all changes he needs on a platter.<P>You vented all that was in my head [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear MNM: <P>You ask-- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> What have I done to deserve this? He is cold, unemotional and could care less about what he has done to our family. Now he is going to flaunt this B**** in front of our faces. I don't know if I can handle anymore. Why did this happen? How could I have married such a jerk?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you tonight.<P>I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this. How much this must be upsetting you! You are right-- YOU don't deserve this. No one deserves the pain of infidelity. <P>Remember that your H's poor choices SHOULD NOT reflect poorly on you-- or make you feel bad about your decisions. I'm sure that when you married there were many things to love in him. <P>Furthermore, <B>I believe that character DOES COUNT. Always remember this: HE DIDN'T CHEAT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, BUT BECAUSE OF WHO <I>HE IS</I></B>.<P>As to WHY-- "How could they do this to me if they loved me?", I'd like to quote Sylvia Browne: "Their spirit has a longer way to go on its journey than yours does, or they wouldn't put so little value on love." "...Take a long, honest look, not at who you wanted them to be, but at who the evidence proves they really are; recognize that their spiritual limits, not yours, caused the betrayal to happen--and let it go."<P>The Answer to "How could I have been so gullible/stupid/blind?" is (again by Browne), "By believing that everyone's heart and mind works like yours." They don't. It's that simple. <P>And, once again, because the original topic of this post was about morals/character/choices, I will again post an excellent website which continues to bring me peace of mind:<P> <A HREF="http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.josephsoninstitute.org/MED/MED-intro+toc.htm</A> <P>Peace to you and your children! ~Marie<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]

Well, does everyone feel better now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Nothing like a good vent, huh?<P>Choices...yes, the WS did have choices and he/she made them...perhaps out of a bit of selfishness...and now they are so wrapped up in their choices that they are so to speak oblivious of "what they have done and what it might mean to the future." If you think they are thinking much about that, you're wrong...the only way to maintain the illusion of the wonderfulness of this new relationship is to tune totally into it and exclude all other relationships (including for the most part...children).<P>So they're floating along on their balloons of oblivion...looking down on the distruction they've created and through the hazy clouds it doesn't seem so bad...everyone will get over it....and realize that it is so wonderful that it was worth what had to be given up to attain it.<P>Can't everyone see how wonderful this is...how can they ask me to give it up? Rather I should just float off into forever...carried on the winds of my own happiness. It'll be alright....alright....won't it?<P>What they can't see is the envitable storm that is coming just over the horizon...a storm that most likely will tear their dream apart and send it crashing to the ground..to vanish like fog in the early morning sun.<P>What happened to their old life...is their anyone around who still cares what happened to them...maybe...maybe not...but those choices were made and they may now have to pay the consequences for the rest of their lifes. Would you wish this on anyone?<P>How much better to realize that this was a mistake...a big one...a very hurtful one...but a mistake....and mistakes can be forgiven...just as God forgives our mistakes.<P>How many of us have seen the fallen...broken and abandoned by their dreams...left alone with nothing but memories...all because at some time in their lives they made mistakes...mistakes that someone could not forgive them for...and so they stand on the outside of what once was their lives and wish they had it all back again...but it's too late...the pieces can't be put together again.<P>I still see myself as the guardian of our life...the one who still has all the pieces...and I'm lovely nuturing them and preserving them for now.<P>And in my mind I know that I am where I have to be...the protector of the faith...and nothing that WS can do or say can deter me.<P>So hold on to the pieces of your life...pull them close to you while this storm rages...because this too shall pass.<P>I pray that things will get better for you.<P>Faye<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: buffy ]

first misery let me say once again, you have gotten a raw deal. I have been following your story and it is just hard to believe. But if you are right about H being a socipath, that is how it works. They are very good at getting people to marry them, then they suck the life out of you. I diescribe them as emotional black holes, everything goes one way. All you can do is pick up the pieces and survive, and not let the experience leave the the final insult, make you bitter and cynical about life. Instead let the experience teach you how to avoid sociopaths in the future, and now you can teach your children that lesson too. Your life has not been wasted misery, you have 4 wonderful children...right? I have four also, 23-15. And yes, the impact on them of not only my affair, but years of marital disharmony weighs heavily. The only bright note is they all say they will never get married, and at these vulnerable ages, maybe that isn't so bad. Unlike your H, if my w and I do seperarte, she will not be left impoverished. I feel strongly about the need for a special fit in an intimate relationship, but I also feel strongly about responsibility, and regardless of where the truth (or blame) re our marital disharmony lies, she is still the mother of our children, and was the designated stay at home parent. That has "earned" her my respect and support as long as she lives. I do believe in consequences arising out of committment, I just do not think one can promise, or make themself, love someone in that special way. I will always caringly love my wife, but that is not what intimacy is about. And despite the flack I keep getting from the displaced anger of bs (and that is ok, I understand it). I am certain love is more than just choosing to cohabitate and make the best of things. I do not believe in sacrificial marriage, I believe in enthusiastic marriage. One cannot fake enthusiasm, and I do not think one should pretend it either. Let me ask you something misery. If your H was being responsible in every other way, financial support, full participation in parenting, treated you with courtesy and respect, just did not want to be married to you, would you be as angry? Would you want him to stay out of duty, if he was not passionate about you? <P>anyone else can answer too. That is the crux of the issue (for me anyways), what is marriage really, if not simply the vehicle for expressing the most personal choice a human can make, who to be intimate with, and what do we do when someone no longer wants to be intimate with their spouse? How can we do anything but say a sad goodbye, and hope any future choices are more sound. Can re really make intimacy a contract, a duty? Doesn't this violate what an intimate life partner is all about, an enthusiastic, freely made, uncoerced choice, renewed everyday?<P>misery...SNL....grow up. You made a commitment to your wife. Either honor it or move on. Stop your psychological babble.<P>snl...my babble is how I try to find my way, some people need to "vent", some need to cry, some need advice, I need to understand why I am married, and why I should stay married, if the desire to be married is not there...so I babble. But it is a process misery, and I (or my wife, who left me today) will decide, and act......she has come back temporarily (she was really angry, and I asked her politely to return), but it is a sort of unsettling experience, having no control over this kind of thing, gives me a little insight into how bs feel.<P>misery...Most of the time...what you write makes me literally sick. <P>snl..why misery, I fundamentally am only questioning what marriage, love, and bonding are, is that so threatening? Shouldn't we try to understand these things? Yes, I do include my personal details and travails, and no doubt some find it distressing (I too find many stories distressing, and some make me sick too).<P>misery...When you got married, you were to forsake all others. <P>snl..I did, for 23 years. And when I didn't, I offered my wife a divorce, on any terms she cared to name, was only fair, and stopped the A (although it took a few months to sort out the EA part).<P>misery...Marriage or living with someone all the time is hard work---and yes at times, the passion and love wears thin. But there are other times, it is incredibly great. <P>snl..What if your partner does not feel that way misery, what do you think should happen? Would you bind someone to you by invoking vows, would you lay with them, live with them, if you knew they did not want to, was only honoring vows? Radical honesty requires them to tell you. What do you do when you ask your spouse if they would rather be divorced and they say yes (as they m,ust if they are honest about their feelings).<P>Good luck to you, is tough enough to be divorced when all are acting responsibility, is hell when one is a sociopath, but it is not about you misery, you don't deserve this, is about him.

Thanks once again for the posts. I have calmed down a little and want to apologize for the venting.<P>ohmy_marie...I found a little time tonight and read that site. It was really good. I want to copy it off for my kids to read. I really feel we need to get back to a society that values basic right and wrongs. We have let things slide for so long and the everything goes attitude is destroying our country. I teach kids from all the chaos these broken relationships cause. It is awful. They are really hurting...and the parents don't seem to care. I hate that my kids are going to be in that position. I don't know if I can forgive him this time. What he has done has hurt too bad. I wish he was out of my life for good.<P>Buffy, thanks for your comments. I had hoped for months that my H would again come down from the clouds. But that is not to be. It still hurts terribly.<P>SNL,<BR>I feel like I attacked you tonight. I am sorry for that. I listen to your rationale...and can hear my husband saying the same type of stuff. I think you and your wife are in a sad situation. I don't think the romantic love you find so enchanting is reality. I think there is a deeper meaning of love that goes beyond the beginning passion you and my H are so enthralled with.<BR>When I talk to older married couples...they don't talk about a perfect fit. They don't talk about passion. But they do show and feel love for each other. They are comfortable together by their experiences and their commitment. I have talked a lot about this with them....to see what I could have done better. Couples like this seem to accept each other.<P>My H. seems afraid that life is passing him by. He needs to be up on a pedestal....and I am afraid he fell off mine a long time ago. I know he is human with faults like everyone else. I also know his good side. <P>I don't think he has treated me well in our marriage. And that is sad. No, I don't want him to "settle" for me. And I think he has done that since his first major affair in 1990. That is not a good feeling.<P>He is a good looking man...and enjoys the attention of younger women. It is too bad though, because he is missing the love that has endured 25 years with him. He will be missing his family. He will be missing our future we had planned.<P>He doesn't see that yet. Maybe he won't ever. I know that I have loved him with my whole heart and my whole being. As you say, maybe that is not enough.<P>I am sorry to hear that your wife moved out. Why did you ask her back? What exactly do you want? Perhaps you need to dedicate yourself back to loving you wife and family. I think you will be amazed how your love will grow. You just have to decide to do it. Love is an action---not just a feeling. I believe that with my whole heart.<P>Have you watched Fiddler On the Roof? I think that is the greatest example of married love that I could think of. When Tevia asks his wife "Do you love me?" That is such a great scene.<P>I come from a family of strong Norwegians. All my grandparents came from Norway and settled here and struggled to make a living. There were no divorces until my generation. Do you think their marriages were all about passion? No, but they were about love and commitment. Those aren't evil words...they allow you to grow and live fully. You shouldn't have to worry about whether or not you are passionately in love. You should cherish and care for your partner. I think that is why we have so many miserable people around...everyone is searching for this "right fit"...listen, you will always be two individuals. The fit won't ever be perfect....or maybe I should say...the fit is as perfect as you want it to be. <P>My H also says he "fits" with his new partner. He has said so many hurtful things about me and our marriage...that it made me wonder if we ever did love that way.<P>Well, the other day, I was cleaning up in the basement for our annual fall cleanup and yardsale. I found a box full of all of our old love letters for about the first 5 years of our relationship. I started to read through them and amazingly they sound just like the ones Jim has been leaving around here for me to see from his new flame. We were so passionately in love. We couldn't stay away from each other. Or at least that is what I thought. I also found 2 letters from a girl H had mentioned to me a few times when I had left ASU to go back to Albuquerque to teach high school. I went back home to help take care of my father who was dying of cancer. Turns out, in the 9 months I was away from him...he was having an affair with her. Found naked pictures with these letters. This was when he was telling me how much he loved me....interesting!! Hurt to see those even now. <P>Well, guess I have been on this way too long tonight. Thanks again for your posts. I wish my life was different then it is turning out to be. But, I don't have any control over it. Take Care everyone.

Bump for further comment!!

Okay. I'm almost scared to post anything here because it feels like everytime I do the thread dies. And I know I don't have the final word!<P>But I have to. I just can't help myself.<P>Misery: Your life and mine run so parallel it's spooky. I stole a line from Estes today and put it in my "signature" for all my email ... which is the only way I can deal with my H right now ... and it is:<BR>"Character is what you are when no one is looking." Let him see that everytime I email him. <P>SNL: People do not have to be "in love" to love and cherish each other and work at their relationship. Apparently my H has been screwing around for years but only recently found someone special enough to leave us for. I would have done anything to reconcile my marriage - but he flat refused. He didn't just walk, he RAN. Love is not just a feeling. We're back to the whole choices thing here. There was never a reason in our marriage for him to wander. I am still the size I was when we married and we enjoyed a wonderful sex life. He quit. I will probably never know why. I don't want to spend my life trying to figure it out because he's just not worth it. <P>Have you ever heard one of my momma's favorite sayings, SNL?<P> S**t or get off the pot!!

billbailey, yes I have have heard the saying, and I agree with it. I too have been married about 24 years, never wandered, always worked at it as best I could, and it did not work. Now that means different things to different people, but let me ask you a question...... Suppose you came to understand you did not want to be married to your H, (not now, but if he had done nothing despicable). Didn't hate him, not going to ignore him, still have a relationship, and history in common....just no longer want to be in an intimate relationship...... ok, you do the work, fix anything that needs fixing, but after the dust has settled, you still do not want to be married.....what do you do?

Being a child of divorce, I'd find a way to work it out. My kids don't deserve the pain they're suffering.<P>We loved each other once, we should be able to find a way to love each other again.<P>Or so the theory goes. Unfortunately the cases where nobody did anything horrible are very few and far between. I think the only thing I was ever really guilty of was believing him that I could trust him - and losing too much of myself in my role as wife and mother. He's been having A's (unbeknown to me) for years and years. I think he finally found the one he thinks will bring him happiness. What fools they are. They were both cheaters - why do they think they won't do it again?

I too was the child of divorce, and I hated it, and it was a burning committment in me that I would never do that to my kids. I know exactly how you feel, and the rrealization that I have failed, is crushing. But none of us are one-dimensional, and I know I am not perfect, and that God loves me, so I will survive. It is somehow more satisifying to be the bs and have that moral pridefullness to bolster one in the failure, but I have come to realize failure comes in many guises, and mine is to wear the clothes of a ws. I know now that the failure of a marriage is the failure of both, and that the failure started long before the A. <P>I don't believe that any two people can be married bailey [sorry, calling you bill just feels weird [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ], well, they can be married, but I mean I don't believe any two people can experience the deep psychological connections humans instinctively seek and what marriage is supposed to be the vehicle to express them in. Fit does matter, in the degree of success one will experience in that way. Nor do I think just cause two people at one point in time agreed to marriage that means anything about how well they fit. Marriage is often entered very shallowly/irresponsibly (psychologicaly speaking). Association with any human being over a long time should generate caring, irrespective of fit, otherwise one would not associate at all. Looking at the good things in a person is a choice too, and no one (well almost no one) is so evil they don't have good points, good days, good behaviour..... none of this has to do with fit or bonding..... It has to do with habituation. <P>So the argument one was supposedly in-love at some point does not hold water as an absolute (it may be true, and if it really is, the bond was really there, people will recover with or without MB). When the inevitable marital breakdown occurs (however it manifests itself), the only issue is whether one is bonded enough (or at all) in that special way.......or whether one is going to reject bonding as a reason for marrriage, and just do duty (vows etc.) and ignore the emotional truths. This is the basis of the caring love argument. I have looked at this for months, cause it confused me too, the caring but not in-love argument that drives us all nuts. People care because they are decent, and wish no one ill, and cause caring is a survival trait for out species, and it can be very strong, it is definitely situationally dependent, how well you know someone, and how much time you spend with them affect the degree of caring love. But one can feel immense caring love for total strangers too, especially ones who have been terribly hurt in some way. None of this has anything to do with romantic love, one can care about anyone, but one can only bond intimiately with a few IMO. <P>And therein lies most of the stories here, they are not about romantic love, and it is necessary to refute romantic love as ephemeral, and unimportant, and only a phase in an early relationship. I have considered this for months, listened to hundreds of stories, read between the lines, pondered my own life experiences, and decided that is not true. Romantic love, "in-love" is the measure by which we recognize intimacy and the means by which we cleave to another, and become oneflesh. I acknowledge these are murky areas not well-suited to rhetorical analysis, and fraught with room for error, and misunderstanding, but that makes it no less real, and does not sheild us from the consequences of trying to live in intimacy with someone we only caring love, but are not in-love with. I think being in-love is essential to emotional well-being, and growth as a human being, and we suffer in various ways if we do not live with this in our life.<P>However, I realize one does not have to have romantic love to survive, and therein lies the pathos of marriage and all the misery. This notion of "mature" love, which is essentially a settleing for someone you are not romatically in-love with, not that deeply bonded with, maybe not even that much in common with (other than kids, family, and history)........but someone you care about, feel secure with (all those financial, safety issues in crazy world), and feel can be reasonably comfortable with. This is the arena of vows and committments and promises..... that one, when the time comes, and the realization sets in for one (or the other) that one is never going to really connect any deeper, can't connect any deeper, or worse realizes (one way or another) that they can connect deeper with others (or worse of all, someone in particular), one is expected to look to the contract the committmnents, and forever turn away, living the rest of their life with the first effort at finding this bond. With sufficient incentive (usually fear of losing spouse) folks may "work" harder at making it comfortable (ie meeting en), and that is the story of the rest of our life. Now clearly I have put a less optimistic spin to this, others would say that is all life ever is, choices, making the best, and focusing on the good and the benefits and from that one derives the happiness we seek. And they are right too, both viewpoints are right, to some degree it is attitude........ but the essential question still remains, do we fit everyone the same? We know that is no. Does that affect our mental health? Yes it has too, otherwise why would we be so upset when a relationship (even a lousy one) ends? So can just staying in a "mature" relationship cause duty says one should be good or bad? That is the question isn't it, what does good or bad mean? I say it makes a difference, a huge difference, and what works for one couple, may very well not work for another.......precisely cause of who they are, and therein lies all the conflict between us posters on what love and marriage and bonding and vows, and committment, and emotional health means in terms of behavioural choices. If marriage is voluntary..... and it is........ and if marrriage is not absolute....... and we all agree it is not.......... then divorce has to be ok too, and the fundamental reason to divorce has to be only one thing....... one (or both) parties just don't want to be there. And even on that most agree, if their spouse cannot look them in the eye and with radical honesty say I am in-love with you, and want nothing more in life then to wake up each morning by your side, and look you in the eye and thank-God I am married to you, I choose you over all others.......then most would prefer to divorce........right? So what do we do....... when you, or your spouse cannot do that? Even you billbailey, you say you will find a way to love, that sounds like you are saying you will find a way to convince yourself to deny the truth of your deepest feelings, the ones in our heart where the truth lies about the bond we have with another. People deny many things, humans are good at denail, we deny things that hurt, and what better place to deny than the truth of ones heart? The pain we cause another, the pain we cause ourselves, when in the dark time of night, when all is quiet, and allthough we are laying next to someone, we know we are really alone, and this is not what we really really want...... and we run screaming from that thought, not even necessarily cause of who we married, who is not evil, and may even be content with us, and behave by all standards admirably.......... no we run from the thought cause of what it says about us, and what we must face if we admit it.........instead many ferociously bury the thought, never to see the light of day, never think about it, never even tell the spouse, unwilling to accept that maybe it is a truth, the truth we all know about how well we fit someone, and what we have to give up if the fit is not there, the bond is not there. We deny deny deny, those around us will help us deny deny deny, I am not the only one here asking these things, I am just the most insistent that it has to be addressed. It is interesting to read the stories about those in recovery who have decided to stay, both bs/ws stories, A is over, blah blah blah, and they are struggling with this, and saying things like I don't wanna live my life like this, married but alone in some fundamental way. And they describe their stuff, and folks say oh just be patient, it will get better, blah blah blah........but ya know, yes it will get more tolerable, but it may never get "better", and what these people are dealing with, is whether they can settle, whether they can accept no passion if it never happens...... and each will decide for themselves, but I don't think there is any one right answer, settle not settle, stay, leave, it is all the same, it is what you need, and it has to be a selfish decision, it cannot be an altruistic one, you cannot love (maritally speaking) sacrificially, it violates the paradigm of intimacy, and makes the marriage a dependentcy. Every psychologist acknowledges this.......as annoying and frustrating as it may be for each of us........ our choice of partner has to choose us, freely and enthusiastically, and they cannot (well they can, but they should not) misrepresent the deep truths about their enthusiasm...... and if they do not want to be there, they should leave, and we should let them go......without anger, without rancor, without demonizing them..... and if we can't, what does that say about us? I say it says something we don't want to face, we really never loved em either, we loved the picture, they wrecked it, we needed them and they let us down, and that billbailey is about selfish isn't it? That is not about love. Maybe love is only a decision, as you indicate with would find a way no matter what (which of course begged the question I asked, which is what I thought you would do if you believe love is only a decision and it makes no difference who you are married to, you cannot think any other way with out changing your internal worldview). But maybe love is something else, and if so, and marriage is about that love, then a divorce is not about ending a marriage, it is a recognition that the marriage never really existed. Cohabitation with sex existed, and that is a sort of marriage, a legal contract, but it is not the bond we all instinctively seek.<P>billbailey...Being a child of divorce, I'd find a way to work it out. My kids don't deserve the pain they're suffering.<BR>We loved each other once, we should be able to find a way to love each other again.<P>snl...You don't really know you loved once, no way you can know, and the actions of your husband (and perhaps your persistant anger toward him) would suggest the bond was not very strong, if it existed at all. No one "deserves" pain, it is just an integral part of life. It isn't the divorce that hurts kids, it is the poor parenting that follows which does, and this board is populated by people who suffered a lot of pain at the hands of married parents as well. But I hear you bailey, this is the most significant failure of my life, and learning to live with it is not easy, but trying to kid myself or deny it, is not the solution.<P>billbailey.... Unfortunately the cases where nobody did anything horrible are very few and far between. I think the only thing I was ever really guilty of was believing him that I could trust him - and losing too much of myself in my role as wife and mother.<P>snl...In a way you are right. But I would state it a little differntly, what you are guilty of is a wrong choice. None of us are perfect observers, or adept psychoanalysts, especially at young ages, but your H behaviour was predictable if you understood him well enough before marrying him. In most cases (IMO) people are so blinded by love (the hormone type) feelings they simply refuse to also caluculatingly assess their prospective spouse, or themself (as well as doing very little testing of the relationship). This board has a fair number of people who even knowingly married someone they had issues with, thinking love would triumph, or they could fix em, or love would solve their own (often foo) issues. I am one of them. <P>bb...He's been having A's (unbeknown to me) for years and years. I think he finally found the one he thinks will bring him happiness. What fools they are. They were both cheaters - why do they think they won't do it again?<P>snl...I agree. At least she is a fool, cause he is obviously unreliable. Life is a learning experience, one can be excused most things, especially complicated stuff once, even an A. But pattern behaviour is a whole nother ballgame. Your H is revealed for the poor marital choice he would be for ANYONE. Not cause of A, but because he clearly is unable to learn from experience, has no concern about others pain, and continues to repeat the defective behaviour.....actually your H sounds like a sociopath, the marriage only existed for what benefit it gave him, and he gave back as little as needed to keep you from disrupting it. That hurts bailey, I know it does, and you should be angry, you were decieved. My pattern behaviour is the opposite, I was faithful for our entire marriage, it failed not cause I was focused elsewhwere, it failed cause of the interactions of myself and my w with EACH other. The A (whether is really love or not) came about cause we were emptionally disconnected, for all practical purposes we were allready divorced.........that is the psychological truth of emotional withdrawal. It was my choice, I realize that, and although I did not seek it out, I let it happen when I realized what was happening.....but part of that was a a developing realization the previous few years that I was done, the marriage was done, I had failed, and I was coming to grips with that, and what to do about it (live masrried but a seperate life, honoring vows, or divorce). This was no mystery to my wife, she had refused twice my suggestion I move back in the bedroom with her (had my own for 5 years) as well as made it clear she was going to divorce me as soon as she figured out how to pay for it. (now she says she was just angry, and didn't mean any of these things...... but that doesn't make it any less real, people in love just don't do that). So you could say I was vulnerable, but that is victim talk. I think everyone not bonded to another is "vulnerable" just like everyone who is starving is "hungry". So I fell in love with someone, came to understand that cannot work that way (as did she) and we voluntarily stopped and returned to our marriages for whatever resolution there is to be. But, I know now, how incredibly difficult it is to love that way, and how one finds themself in such a circumstance, and I will never do that again. Because it is if not "wrong" in an absolute moral sense, it is incredibly ill-advised, and even if you find love, the fact that it is an A may possibly destroy it, just adding additional misery to the mix. On the other hand people really should not just "exist" but repair or end marriages that are not safe nurturing places, unfortuneately being messy humans it often takes something significant to get us off our butts. And IMO that is pretty much what an affair is, lifes way of getting people off their butts, and like a lot of natures solutions, it can be pretty painfull.<P>If you would bailey, I really would like an answer to the question I asked first time, if you can. I could have asked it differently, what if your H stayed but continued to have affairs, but discreetly, would you continue to maintain the marriage at all cost, hoping he would change? Would you plan a forever? Would you live in a plan B forever? That is an easier question, but it is essentially the same one I asked above. What do you do when you don't want to be married anymore billbailey? YOU, not cause of what someone else does or does not do, but YOU, when you don't want to be married. Do you deny self and just do it? Or do you end it? That is really all any of this is about. All the myriad reasons for and against, and all the endless accusations of justification, rationalization (bs or ws stuff) really just boild down to one thing. Do we do what we want (feel) or do we deny and do what we convince (or others say) ourselves we should do.