I don't know why this is bothering me, I'd like to get some help with this.<P>A lot of people that don't understand MB think that Plan A and B are manipulation. It's even easy for some people that ARE familiar with MB to slip into that way of thinking as well.<P>Is it manipulation? <P>The basic "plan" is to execute a good Plan A (for 3-6 months), and then when the love bank is almost gone, and the WS has not made a decision, to move to Plan B.<P>I know Plan B should be done to preserve the love that is left by the BS for the WS. And it gives the WS a taste of life without the BS....<P>help me? anyone and everyone? Has anyone ever thought of Plan B as manipulation?<P>Thanks [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]!

Hmmm... interesting Faith. I think of plan A and B as being more of the ideals of two extremes. A being the best of you, B being none of you.<P>And instead of the word manipulation, I'd say it's more along the lines of reality (or what reality could be).<P>Plan Aing is for you. And it should never ever stop. How can you possibly manipulate yourself by it? Even when you go into plan B, you still plan A yourself - you just don't extend it towards your spouse.<P>So, you say plan B is perhaps manipulation? I guess I can see how it could be seen that way. In some ways, when someone moves into plan B they're messaging that it's their way or the highway. But how bad is that? To be sure of what you want, and to protect yourself from any more hurt?<P>Karen

In a manner of speaking, all behavioral changes induced by another party can be seen as manipulation. Whether those changes are for better or worse, manipulation does take place. By its very definition, manipulate, is to put things into a pattern or form that will allow things to change, align, or realign. The problem that I have is that the very sound of the word manipulate is a perceived as being bad. Human beings have a choice, always, whather they are to feel "manipulated" or not. If we do not like the direction something is headed, we can change it. The stronger the desire, the easier the manipulation. We have all felt the effects of manipulation at some time or other. Even a 12 step program can be seen as manipulation, if you really stop to examine it. Is a guilt trip not manipulation? Is a long, deep kiss not manipulation with a hopeful result? Almost everything we do and say can be categorized as manipulation. I think the problem most people have is their own perception of manipulation, and they justify it by calling it something else. Just my opinion though... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Hi Faith,<P>Well it depends on your perspective/motive. To the WS trying to promote the A, yes it is manipulation. Then again, to that kind of WS, almost everything is manipulation. So is that what it is? No. Just because the WS may be stuck in that mental thought, doesn't mean that we have to be stuck there with them. <P>If a child says candy is good, is it? No. It takes a real adult to correct that thinking and realign the child to face the real facts, truth and reality. Is that manipulation? Well, the child could view it as such. So what, give in to the child? Let him have a mouth full of cavaties and loose his adult teeth before he is 10? Hm.... <P>So what really is plan B viewed from a realistic, truthful and factual position? Well IMHO, plan B is design (as atested by others even prior Wss), as a protection for the BS and family. Protection from a WS who has displayed conduct and characteristics contrary to their former self. Since the WS acts appear to be strange to the family and friends, plan B serves as a protection until it is better understood who and what this person is or has become and whether this is a permanent change. <P>Hopefully for many, this is not a permanent thing. For some it is and for those, plan B does prepare them to continue and survive. The BS, family and friends actually learn to move on with there life. Where does this leave the WS? It leaves the WS with the WS. Can be kinda lonely out there with only yourself to agrue with, but as seen even here, many a WS like to argue. In some cases, the WS becomes highly agressive and antagonistic. When a BS displays similar attitude, it is immediately met with WS opposition, as if those qualities are the sole posession of the WS. Hm...... now who is being manipulative? <P>L.

I think the only way Plan B should even remotely be considered to be manipulation, is when the WS shows a continued desire to have both the marriage AND the affair. It can be a way of showing the WS what it would be like to have ONLY the affair, and not the marriage. They already realize they can't have both, but Plan B from WSes side, is a time to test themselves and see whether or not they really miss the BS, and whether or not the BS is worth giving up the affair for.

For me, I see Plan B as setting a boundary. You don't want to be hurt by the WS's behavior anymore. You want to keep what love you have left for them. I think spelling it out in the Plan B letter lovingly, without LB's should not be considered manipulation. It's about telling your WS how much they are loved, and that you don't want to lose that love by continuing to be manipulated by THEM; because in my opinion, getting some needs met by OP and some met by BS is a MAJOR manipulation by the WS. It may not be done conciously, but I see it as manipulating the lives of 2 people to satisfy their own needs. I think the reason this has gone on for me so long with my H is that I did NOT do a good Plan B, therefore, I was enabling the destructive manipulation on his part to continue.<P>MOM

Manipulate:<BR>1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner<BR>2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage<BR>3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : <P>Ultimately I think you need to analyze your own goal. What are your intentions with Plan B? <P>Plan B is about protection for the BS. It is not supposed to be about getting the WS home (if that is the intent then I think it is manipulation)<P>I think that some of the possible OUTCOMES from Plan B are that the WS realize their loss, want their spouses back, and recommit to their marriages -- however I don't think those are supposed to be the GOALS of plan B.<P>Just my opinion

thanks, everyone. these are really great.<P>keep 'em coming.

If what you say is true, Lexxxy, then yes, I think Plan B is manipulation. And that's exactly what it will be for me, if it comes to it. And having my wife leave home won't protect my love, it will just make it go away. See, my wife has a shrewd little act going on at home, where we just pretend nothing happened, and we have fun, great sex, romantic dinners, quiet evenings, and all the while she still calls the OM every day and listens to him pant and wheeze while he jerks off.<P>So, sorry, maybe that was a little self indulgent, but the truth is that my wife is having it all, and in my case, some Plan B will do her a lot of good to help her realize just what it is that she wants.

Yes,<P>this is extremely helpful as I just gave my H a Plan B type letter this morning. I just have to be strong enough to avoid contact now. I'm already finding myself 2nd guessing my intentions. I've tried to convince myself that plan B was the only way to keep my sanity. H refuses to move out of house with OW but because he still wants to be my friend, I've let him. I've tried to say I'm just protecting myself and that I have to move on but deep down I think I'm going to Plan B because I want to make my H see what life without me is SO HE WILL COME HOME. The bottom line is that I'm trying to Plan B to shock him into coming home. I also know it is what is best for me emotionally but I feel like I'm turning my back on my best friend. Plan B is definately about establishing boundaries. I just haven't been able to uphold them yet. <P>I have already filed for divorce.( another thing I did because it was the right thing to do, but with the hidden hope it would shock him out of the fog) <P>I think I'm ready to accept that my marriage is over but I'm grasping for any ideas that will make him see the light. Looking at it in that perspective makes me think I am trying to manipulate him. It isn't my intention but it is the basic truth. I want to convince him how he feels and what is best for him. Reality is that it is not my place to do that and that I have to come to grips with him being a grown-up and let him suffer the consequences of his actions.<P>Yikes! My head is about to explode. PP