Debbie;<P>Your statement struck me very hard;<P>"Our recovery is going well, but it has now come to an impass. This is where we started.<BR>He's busy and I'm alone. He goes off to see friends and I go to work. On my days off he has things planned that don't include me. Or are things that I don't like to do. But I try. And it starts the cycle again. On the surface, things look good. But underneath,<BR>I find I'm hurting again." <P><BR>Debbie, I think you and I may have communicated a year ago....I had an EA with my coach....he broke things off. <P>Well, my husband and I worked very hard at making things right between us [using MB books and principles and this web site]....and seemed to have put things right...for a while, but are now back at ground zero. <P>My husband spends at least 3 hours every evening playing tennis with our son. He says he wants to spend time with me, but finds an excuse at every invitation I give. I feel/felt once again alone....[for hours and hours on end.] <P>About a month ago, Coach came back into the picture. We haven't had contact for over 10 months. I mean absolutely NO contact...but now I am really scared.... The attaction between us is so incredibly strong...and I need the affection, attention, encouragement, and love that I feel from him. <P>My husband, on the other hand, simply 'relys' on me to help him get things done,[he is also demanding and often critical about things that I do not control] but he doesn't crave my time or attention---occasionally sex, but I guess we all need that. <P>Debbie, I have turned to this medium for help before...we seem to be in the same situation...let's ask for help from those more wise than we are.<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]

Hi C & I,<P>IMVHO, I think you should tell your H how you feel. Tell him how you are finding yourself back to how you felt when you had that EA with coach and tell your H that you fear since coach is back in the pic, it may start again but you don't want it to [Radical Honesty] .... your H <B>DESERVES</B> to know.<P>As a BS myself, I wish to gawd my H had told me he was feeling vunerable <I>AGAIN</I> so I could see that we had stepped back into our routine that fostered his first affair. It is only <B>FAIR</B> you tell your H, C & I. He is supposed to be your best friend and because he has the MB principals behind his belt, he should know how to deal with it correctly, without LB.<P>I know you may be frightened to tell him, I can understand that, but it is his right to know NOW ... not for you to tell him AFTER things have already gone too far with you and coach.<P>Please consider my plea as a BS.<P>God Bless.<P>Lv,<BR>Jo

Jo;<P>Thanks for the words of encouragement, but how long do you try? The other side looks very inviting right now.<P>My husband has been invited, REPEATEDLY, to spend time with me. He only will make time for our son. <P>An example....last night, we were out as a family. I suggested a movie....my husband said "no"..... had my son suggested a movie and the answer would have been"sure what do you want to see?". <P>Need another? Last weekend we were at at tennis tournament. My Husband invited another tennis Dad to have dinner with us. He LITERALLY sat with his back to me during the whole meal while he talked to the other parent. I pointed this out to him and he apologized....then wanted to have sex.<P>Another? My husband regularly invites my son's tennis Coach to share a room with us at tournaments. I am again, completely ignored.<P>Sorry...I didn't mean to simply get on here to whine....but I am angry right now....which is a step up from withdrawn.<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: confused&insecure ]

C&I, don't know if you know me, I am a ws but greatly concerned with the same kind of issues you raise. Although circumstances are different, the underlying question essentially is, what is marriage, and why am I in this one if it isn't nurturing. One school of thought says you just keep "working" forever, it will get better...but ya know, sometimes it never really does. It may get more polite, but the bond never happens. And IMO that is one of the reasons affairs occur in the first place, people are married to the wrong people (not a value judgement, just it will never work cause the two do not fit well enough). I have asked hundreds of questions about all the ramifications I can think of re marriage, love, bonding and such. It has been a heck of an education here, and there are no easy answers. But one of the symptons IMO is that one is lonely, and/or one just really does not want to be married to this person. In fairness humans communicate on many levels, some hard to discern, your H could be picking up some on stuff you are projecting, and responding accordingly, you have to figure that out on your own. But I also know humans hate change, and divorce is about as big as change gets. Sometime people just force themselves to be together, and really aren't ever gonna be passionate. If that happens they live what is called a married living singles lifestyle. Wherein you are married for sake of kids, finances, social status, families etc. but each essentially has their own life. People can do this, I did for most of 23 years, but I can't and won't do it anymore. My w and I are in the process of trying to understand all this, while she recovers her self-esteem from my A, is too soon for us to make any permanent decisions, but we have made one.... we will be passionate, or we will part. Although it is blasphemy to say so, if you had no contact for coach for 10 months, and still find him worthy, it is possible you belong with him. That will involve going through the agony of divorce, but having an A again is no solution at all, so you must continue to stay away from him until you resolve your marriage, as others have said, you need to sit down and tell your H your feelings, and make it clear if it does not change you cannot live your life this way. Do not avoid this, if you do it will only bite you in the butt......hard. Good luck.

Sad-n-lonely<P>I think I do remember some of your posts....but, as I said I have been off of these boards for quite some time. <P>Thanks for your insight. But I have a question....do you think that your unique perspective could be from that of a WS? <BR>I am trying my best to take a step back now and take an unbiased look at my situation, but it is difficult. Many of the thinks you said also hit home....staying for the kids, living separate lives [except for sex]...<P>S&L, I haven't stepped over that line...and won't. I'm not toying around with the physical aspects...the emotional are too hard as it is.<P>My husband and I have worked at these things before...several times. I just don't know how long I'm willing to live a life without joy.<P>C&I

One common thread that I read in WS posts is the unhappiness or joylessness....<P>Just at church this morning, my thoughts were affirmed once again as a bible teacher talked that love must be inside you and YOU SHARE IT...joy must be inside you and you SHARE IT...<P>In my very humble opinion, I think that those who become WSs are so needy and so empty that they look to others to fill them up...they look outside themselves for joy and happiness...<P>No one can fill you up with this...that is why people 'keep' looking for the perfect one who fits...but they usually find another needy person...and, at first, they work really hard to fill each other up...but eventually in the ebb and flow of relationships...one or both stop...start feeling their TAKER take over...then the balance is no longer...and one person is GIVING...GIVING not sharing....<P>LOVE IS ABOUT SHARING WHAT YOU HAVE....not GIVING WHAT YOU DON'T...<P>again, this is my very humble opinion...<BR>Cali

Eeeek! C&I, I doubt you came back here, knowing that this is <B>Marriage</B>-Builders, looking for someone to tell you that perhaps you should go for Coach. You write as though you would prefer for your marriage to return to love and passion than to commit adultery, which is definately the right choice on your part. Talk to your husband, tell him how you are yearning for love and attention and that Coach seems to offer this and that you want to get it from your husband instead. Let him know just how serious the problem is, or he may not give this the attention it requires. Try to get yourselves into marriage counseling.<P>Nobody wants you to live a life without joy, but see how your husband responds to this truth. Be honest with him and give him a chance to work on the marriage with you.

C&I..Thanks for your insight. But I have a question....do you think that your unique perspective could be from that of a WS? <P>snl....We all carry our biases, which is why I try to make clear my status. However I do not believe my ws status has any impact whatsoever on my conclusions re marriage. Contrary to some folks efforts to paint me with the selfish/rationalization brush I am neither. I have been a responsible H, and reasonably attentive father for 23 years. I have never looked at ow, much less pursued one. However I have been very lonely most of my marriage. I (not my w usually, but she would participate) have instigated endless counselling efforts, we have attended marriage seminars, read books, had endless relationship talks (I am the talker in the family).... nothing helped. We are both decent, conservative, Christian, hard-working people. But we are very very different psychologically. Some of the problems are serious personal issues, but some I have come to believe, are simply the natural consequences of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't work, whether it is the hole or the peg is irrelevant. <P>I DO NOT believe any 2 people can be married and achieve the deep psychological bond we label "in-love". I DO believe now (didn't before), many people can choose to stay married, and practice MB principles, and have a comfortable relationship, sort of cohabitation with sex, and call it love. It is these relationships that are quite amenable to MB stuff if people want to settle for them. MB principles cannot make people be in-love. I have come to refer to these 2 kinds of marriages as duty marriages (vows, promises, history, caring love, etc., something you could do with most anyone, and in fact many of the descriptions I read here about how people feel about their mates sound like that, this is the one I have, so this is the right one for me, and I will make it work)...and the other as in-love marriages, where there is a deep bond, and a whole different sense of belonging, safety, trust, of being only 1/2 of a whole. <P>The first is relatively easy to obtain, and MB will keep it going, and it works for many. The second is much harder to find, involves tremendous emotional risk, and is easy to fool oneself about and enter one that is not really so. Many of these can morph into the duty kind when the reality comes about (and the kid, history, caring develop). Many here think I am if not outright crazy, that I am trying to justify the ow, and leaveing my w for her. I am doing neither, justification has never meant anything to me in my life, I am my own harshest critic, and I pretty much do what I think is best, makes little difference to me whether someone agrees with me or not. I only respond to the better argument. Because this place in my life has really thrown me a curve, and rattled my self-confidence rather severely. And because I did my wife an injury (and I do care about her alot), I was (and am) amenable to making myself available for reality checks, appropriate chastisement, and reconcilliation behaviours a la MB. Nor is the ow in the picture, I )and she) realized we had to end the A, and we did, it is over, she is gone, I am gone, we resolve our own lives alone. But the effect we had on each other is now part of who we are.....However, this effort does not mean I give up control of my choices to others, I still have to choose my marriage cause it makes sense to me, and is what I want to do. Not what my w wants, not what my kids want, not what my family or community wants, cause that is no good. Who wants a spouse who does not freely choose them? That is the truth about marriage (of either type), it cannot be sacrificial, it has to be the "selfish" honest, choice of BOTH people. For me, that means I must understand everything one possibly can about the psychology of marriage, what it really is, why do we choose it, why do we stay in it, what do we do when it is not working, when do we end it, and why. <P>So I drive the people her nuts exploring all this in great detail, cause it is the only way restoration will occur for me. I am incapable of just "doing" it. I cannot function that way. I know now, we all have different needs re understanding before acting on stuff, some can just do it, that intrigued me, I had to understand why, now I do (but that is another post sometime).<P>Ok back to your question, I would have done exactly the same thing as a bs, an A ENDS the marriage, the quicker folks realize that, the better, it destroys the trust basis which marriage must have to mean anything at all. What each must do (bs ws) is essentially choose all over. Because there is a certain momentum, and the legal document is still in place, marriages tend to continue on...BUT the ones that do not change, fail, all of them 100% I suspect, whether one actually divorces or not. Those who realize that (most here I'd say) learn, or figure out you must pursue your spouse again, and hopefully they will choose you. Those that just throw vows in the ws face do not fare very well. But that means your spouse (bs or ws) may not choose you, and will leave. What isn't talked about much (understandably) is that that is often enough the right choice for the mental health of the individuals, the marriage is never going to be mutually nourishing at satisfactory levels. IMO that must be, and should be part of the reconcilliation process. A discovery of (and lots of discussion about) what marriage really is, so 2 people can see if they are on the same page, and if not, amicably end it before more years of emptiness and unhappiness, or additional trauma (affairs etc,) occur.<P>Since this is not really provided (MB does not include much material on why be married, they just offer the usual standard, kids, history, family, everyone will be upset, caring love, blah blah blah, problem is none of this kept one from being unhappy or someone from having an A, and none of it validates that maybe one party to the marriage just does not want to continue, and is allready aware of all those reasons. IMO we all are woefully ignorant of the psychological dyanmics between people and how our mental health is affected by being in an intimate relationship that does not fit, and will always be a lot of work to sustain. Fact is, I have asked many times, and recieved little or no satisfactory answers to why stay married to someone. I do think small children create a large responsibility, but even then is not an absolute by any means. Other than children, why be married if you are not passionate? Some suggest a mature love...so? <P>I don't have to be married to my w to love her caringly and maturely do I? And if people do not fit well, they will not spend much time with each other, they will be present, you will see them there, you may even satisify each others physical needs for sex, but you are really alone, and you know it, and you know it will never be any different, cause it can't be, not given who the 2 people are. Is that ok? Depends, each sets their own acceptable sense of being alone. And we sublimate (is that the right word), we look to God, we will just accept this "quiet" love, and find our joy in giving our life away to another, no need to get anything back. A beautiful sentiment, and pure hogwash. God does not describe marriage as a one-sided animal, nor does He celebrate dutiful sacrifice. And no reason to question how we came to marry someone, and that it may very well have been an unfortunate mistake made in the ignorance of youth re mate selection. The religious arguments get very interesting when you start trying to prove what God actually says about marriage and bonding. <P>This is what I have been doing C&I, taking marriage apart and looking at it through a microscope, then factoring in my feelings (cause feelings do count, and happy is not a 4 letter word) to find my own path. This has transcended my role as a ws, bs have similar concerns and feelings, and I feel comfortable I am being as unbiased as one can be in assessing why and how to make a personal choice. Some folks think you do not question a marriage. They are dead wrong, a marriage is nothing more than the random choice to try and forge a special intimate relationship with a stranger (people rarely know very much beyond superficialities about the folks they marry), it is fraught with opportunity for error, a fact evidenced by the appaling divorce rate, and the even higher unhappiness rate (adding in those who are gritting their teeth, and gutting it out for whatever reason). Ones well-being, and mental health is seriously affected by who you are married too, and how happy you are (with them...NOT God) is a measure of how healthy the marriage is. It truly surprises me how we celebrate being in-love, and marrying, but then say we should not listen to our feelings when we know it is not working, and choose divorce. They are the same feelings ya know, they come from that same place inside us that assesses our life emotionally. We work so hard at talking ourself into staying married (and ignoring dissenting feelings), and then are surprised when we are still unhappy, or are told to work even harder at surpressing the truths our heart is screaming at us, and we wonder why so many people in long-term marriages don't seem too happy....but they are still married, they win the prize, they did the duty......I know, I use to be one of them...... but not any more. I need a reason live a life of intimacy with someone, and that reason is passion, marriage is not a contact for me. If I have to regularly wonder why I am married, or convince myself I am happy, or stay married cause it is a duty...... then I am not really married at all, I am simply co-habitating. There is absolutely no reason to be married that way, cause you can do everything you do as an ex....be friends, share memories, visit family, you name it... it can all be done as an ex.......so why be married at all, if you are not passionate, if you cannot imagine living without waking next to this person and seeing their eyes every single day for the rest of your life. If you don't mark time by when you next are together (when apart), and so forth and so on. That IMO is what being in-love means. One can caringly love someone, but why does that mean being married to them? Anyways you get the point.<P>C&II am trying my best to take a step back now and take an unbiased look at my situation, but it is difficult. Many of the things you said also hit home....staying for the kids, living separate lives [except for sex]...<P>snl...I know what you mean. It hits you like a pile driver, when you start looking for reasons to stay married, you are no longer in-love, it has become something akin to a business arrangement, and that just doesn't seem enough. That is my problem with MB it can (and is) making things more plesant, but it does not deal with the fundamental issue, should we continue to be married. That I had an A suggests at some level we should not. I am not addictive, I was not solving any problems, I was in an emotionally withdrawn marriage for years, it only existed on paper. We are not newlyweds we have not avoided conflict, there is little I do not know about my wife, or she I, maybe some miracle will occur and we will spontaneously fall in love, but it seems unlikely, to her or me. Our arguments revolve more around settling for what we got, and she is angry cause I question that (probably cause it feels threatening to her). But I literally cannot see any difference between us being married or seperated. I cannot see anything marriage does for us. As long as I see to her support needs (so she is not impoverished), do not abuse her (by trashing her), am available if she needs someone to talk to or help her, do not make family functions uncomfortable, if I can do all this as an ex...then what purpose is served by being married?<P>c&I....S&L, I haven't stepped over that line...and won't. I'm not toying around with the physical aspects...the emotional are too hard as it is.<P>snl....Yes. I do wonder something though. Divorce is not death. I wonder what the fear, maybe people who are very troubled re desire to be married, should divorce, if the 2 people don't like it, they just get remarried. I think people are scared of divorce (or even seperation), cause they are afraid to put the relationship to the ultimate test, setting each other free. That way there is no more coercion, they are free to date each other, and rebuild their relationship from the ground up, I think that is what is generally behind the trapped feelings. Maybe an affair should mean automatic divorce, and people either remarry or they don't.<P>C&I...My husband and I have worked at these things before...several times. I just don't know how long I'm willing to live a life without joy.<P>snl.....There are those who will tell you joy comes from within, well then why don't we just all be monks and nuns? We bond for a reason, and that reason is measured by joy, do not give up on it confused, it is indeed what marriage should be about IMO.

Sad-N-Lonely;<P>Thank you so much for your well thought out reply....and the time you took to respond to me. <P>We have some things in common. My marriage celebrates 20 years this month. I also, had never taken a second glance at another, and I have also been very lonely for most of my marriage. My husband is a loving father, a hard worker, handsome and a genius. I say these things in all seriousness. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with him. We simply have different interests....no common ground-->no conversation-->no time.<P>I sometimes see my marriage as a "duty" marriage, as you so aptly labeled it. My husband's opinion would differ. He sees nothing wrong, says I do a great job of fulfilling his needs....[which seem to be taking care of the house and having sex.]<P>In truth, we don't argue, we laugh quite often when we are together, but we only spend on average 10 minutes a day in actual communication with one another....the rest of the time our lives are completely separate. <P>I have a question about a one of your statements. You said "I and she realized we had to end the A, and we did, it is over, she is gone, I am gone, we resolve our own lives alone." Did you mean that you resolved to live your own lives alone? That is the way I read it on my first pass. That was my exact resolution 10 months ago when Coach broke off our relationship. I resolved to stay where I was, care for my family, and live my life alone.....[Pardon my saying so, but, how sad for anyone who ever reconsiles themselves to that.]<P>I decided to try to give the MB principles a try. My husband agreed and we worked diligently at it. My husband did a good job of Plan A for a while...but it seems that, since it is only a plan and not his true character [or would desire be a better word here?], that we are almost back to ground zero. I suppose my question would be, do I really want to start MB all over again...feeling sure the result will only be temporary?<P>SNL....You are much farther down this road than I am....actually, you sound as if you have already decided you are leaving your relationship. I understand your reasons....I am living a good many of them, but do not know which direction I will go as yet.<P>I told coach that I feel like I am balancing with one foot on either side of a deep canyon. Either way I try to save myself, I am giving something up. The only other option is to let myself drop into the canyon and settle for a life alone.<P>I am not a fearful person. I am not afraid of a divorce, per se, but I do fear hurting my husband, my children, my in-laws etc. <P>So I am not making one bit of progress here today. I am not clarifying my points to myself or anyone else....guess it's time to go...but SNL Thanks for your perspective.

Hi C&I,<P>Thanks for writing. I finally went for the radical honesty thing and told my H that he is missing that mark again. My top two needs are things that he really has to work at because they don't come naturally to him.<BR>And I find that I seem to gravitate towards men who do natually fill those needs.. Oh, not to have an A, but just to talk with and laugh with. Now that I understand how things work for me, I am much more careful about the kinds of friendships I have with men. But I am scared that if my OM came back into the picture that I would have the strength to stay away from him. I am so glad that he has moved away and I don't have a clue where he is.<P>My H told me he would try harder again. And he is, but it's very hard. I work nights.<BR>He gets off work only an hour before I go to work. Because of the situation with our daughter this is the work schedule we have to use for now. But it sure does make things hard to keep any real communication doing in our marriage. My H does come to my work during my lunchtime and we talk some, but while that is nice, it doesn't meet the important needs in my life. It meets his.<P>I have learned much from this forum and those who write. sad n lonely makes me think on most issues that he writes on.<BR>I have learned to love my H very much again.<BR>I have made a conscious decision to never hurt him again. Many things I feel I just keep inside. Sometimes I wonder if I have to right to vent. But then I realize that if things hadn't deteriorated in our marriage, I would never have ended up having an A. I wouldn't have needed to look somewhere else for someone else to meet my needs.<P>Just like you, we have a had time communicating. His recreational activities aren't ones that I am interested in. I spent most of my married life just enduring those acitivies while he never bothered to do the things that I liked. Most of those who know what happened, think I just had a mid-life crises. But I just totally rebelled against doing those things that I really don't like. <P>Now I wonder how long he will keep trying to meed my needs before he will be involved in something else and all that will fall by the wayside again..and I wonder if this is what my life is doomed to be.............<P>Debbie

C&I...Thank you so much for your well thought out reply....and the time you took to respond to me. <P>snl..You are welcome. Don't know how right I am, but I do work hard at thinking this all out.<P>C&I...We have some things in common. My marriage celebrates 20 years this month. I also, had never taken a second glance at another, and I have also been very lonely for most of my marriage. My husband is a loving father, a hard worker, handsome and a genius. I say these things in all seriousness. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with him. We simply have different interests....no common ground-->no conversation-->no time.<P>snl...Well, I am a little more into analyzing why we have difficulties, there are always reasons, but it does not mean someone is "bad". However my w is a good person too, hard-worker, very helpful and caring, artistic/musical, attentive mother, and attractive. Marital difficulties aren't always about some wife beater, or shrew, those are the relatively easy ones. The tough ones are when you could be brother/sister, good-friends, successful co-workers, but something does not work for intimate mates. There has to be something about fitting that refelects the psychology of the individuals, and how they mesh, it cannot be faked, it cannot be chosen, it is or is not and you just live with it...but that is so sad. Actually some studies (kierseys stuuf about temperament) beat this out in real world experience. There is a pattern to the likelihood of marital success, and it is predictive based on psychological profiling.<P>C&I....I sometimes see my marriage as a "duty" marriage, as you so aptly labeled it. My husband's opinion would differ. He sees nothing wrong, says I do a great job of fulfilling his needs....[which seem to be taking care of the house and having sex.]<P>snl....I do not know your particular circumstances, but in general that is not an unusual comment for marriages the outside "world" thinks are great, but one party is usually desperately lonely. I do not think the other partner is always as perfect as one says. I do think the world is composed of a fair number of people who only work as hard as needed to get what they want in a marriage, they range from outright sociopaths, to regular personality disorders. The common denominator is they are focused on their needs only pretty much. They are usually better at manipulating the marriage in a million subtle (and not so subtle) ways to get what they want, and so of course are "content". This is unacceptable IMO. But they usually marry people who are loathe to hurt others, and are forever trying to make it right (at the expense of themselves) until they have a nervous breakdown, an affair, or just give up alltogether, and live a married but single lifestyle.<P>C&I...In truth, we don't argue, we laugh quite often when we are together, but we only spend on average 10 minutes a day in actual communication with one another....the rest of the time our lives are completely separate.<P>snl...How much of the arguing is avoiding conflict? (walking on eggshells type stuff), and how much of the laughter and good interactions are on his terms, in his time? Not suggesting anything, but often in these kinds of relationships, the "content" party dictates the emotional agenda, and the emotional temperature of the day. How does he react when you don't "play" by the unwritten rules, or when you challenge him hard? If he gets angry that is another sympton. <P>C&I....I have a question about a one of your statements. You said "I and she realized we had to end the A, and we did, it is over, she is gone, I am gone, we resolve our own lives alone." Did you mean that you resolved to live your own lives alone? That is the way I read it on my first pass. That was my exact resolution 10 months ago when Coach broke off our relationship. I resolved to stay where I was, care for my family, and live my life alone.....[Pardon my saying so, but, how sad for anyone who ever reconsiles themselves to that.]<P>snl....That is part of it, more on her part. I was galvanized to settle no more, (but I had been going there a couple years before A, she was just starting to wake up, and the emotions of the A scared her more than me). Still I am afraid I might just give up and settle, the pressure to do so is enormous. No one supports the notion a marriage should end for the well-being of the ws, rather you are pondscum, and just need to be reprogrammed. It is very hard to escape when you are a conflict avoider, and hate hurting people. But the key is coming to understand you are not responsible for others hurt, they made choices too, all you can do is be radically honest, and that is what has saved my life, and broken the toxic dance I was in. Now my marriage will survive or not on it's own merits, and by the desire of us both, not just one of us. It is what these merits are, and how to assess them that I freely explore now, something I never did before.<P>C&I....I decided to try to give the MB principles a try. My husband agreed and we worked diligently at it. My husband did a good job of Plan A for a while...but it seems that, since it is only a plan and not his true character [or would desire be a better word here?], that we are almost back to ground zero. <P>snl...I just had this very discussion with jennifer tonight. How does plan a (and mb principles) work with motivation, and how is that tied into who you are. Where is the line drawn between being thoughtful of spouse, and becoming someone different than who you are (and being resentful and uncooperative, cause we all fight for our identity). The truth is, all this stuff only works if you want to be married to someone, and that is (in part) determined by how you fit, and all the desire in the world is not going to change that one iota. It is finding the truth about us, our spouse, and our marriage that is hard, and agonizing, especially coming to understand it is never going to be the deep bond some of us seek.<P>C&I....I suppose my question would be, do I really want to start MB all over again...feeling sure the result will only be temporary?<P>snl....That is indeed the question, when is enough enough, and when will the loneliness end. One of the problem with MB is it reduces all this to behaviour modification, it takes away our self-awareness, it suggests we do not know who we want to be married too, that we can just be married to anyone, I don't think that is true. You cannot take history with someone and turn it into intimacy. History is a 2-edged sword, it gives you some assets to grown on, but it also gives you the experience to decide you do not want to go on.<P>C&I....SNL....You are much farther down this road than I am....actually, you sound as if you have already decided you are leaving your relationship. <P>snl...I have not decided at all. But I am a highly analytical person, actually by temperament an analytical dreamer (rationalist-inventor). We are a very small part of the population, and extremely high maintainence. I drive my poor w nuts with all this stuff, but it is who I am, I don't know how to be any different, nor do I want to be any different. I like me. What you sense here is my assessment of current conditions, I do that all the time, it is confusing, cause folks (including wife) think that means I have made a decision when I have not. When I decide ....I act, and I do it decisively. Such was the affair, it was not an accident, it started innocently, and was confusing, but at one point I knew what was happening, I contemplated it, and I choose it. It was not fog, it was not temporay insanity, it was what I wanted to do. Likewise I decided to stop, after several months of intense discussion and contemplation. And that is why no contact is no problem, I understand how this stuff works. My feelings are unchanged, they just cannot live in that enviroment. Likewise I will choose or not my marriage....when the time comes, and I will not look back. I know I will never know for sure, all I can do is make the best choice I can, and I can only do that by understanding this stuff, and accepting that divorce is as valid a choice as anything else. That has not been easy to do, but now I know it is an essential part of a successful marriage, the risk one can lose it makes it the marriage a choice, everyday, without that choice marriage is bondage, and that has nothing to do with love.<P>C&I...I understand your reasons....I am living a good many of them, but do not know which direction I will go as yet.<P>snl...Another thing I have concluded is seperation is a valid tool. It gives distance, and perspective to relationships that are dependent based, not love based. Usually the dominant partner will resist it cause they are afraid the other will get away. That is the whole point of course, if after a reasonable period of seperation (say a year) there is little love interest in the spouse, that is significant. It may be a painful and risky time for a marriage, but any marriage worth having will survive it quite well methinks. Sometimes people just cannot change/heal/whatever when right under each others noses day after day. There is nothing immoral, or unethical about seperation, I do not think it is used nearly enough, and is a very good tool for assessing how well a couple fit.<P>C&I...I told coach that I feel like I am balancing with one foot on either side of a deep canyon. Either way I try to save myself, I am giving something up. The only other option is to let myself drop into the canyon and settle for a life alone.<P>snl...Very interesting analogy, one I use (internally) quite often. IMO one literally has a foot in two worlds, and the chasm between em is wide and deep. The interplay of stay married, be alone, pursue op, let op go, seek another alltogether, etc. is crazy making. Most sane people finally realize that letting the op go to resolve their fate, while accepting one may end up alone with no one (and or losing both), is the right path, that has to be the mindset this is resolved in. I have reached some resolutions, one is that if I am to be alone, I may as well be divorced, that is preferable to being married and alone.<P>C&I....I am not a fearful person. I am not afraid of a divorce, per se, but I do fear hurting my husband, my children, my in-laws etc.<P>snl...This is what cripples most empaths (folks that acutely feel others pain). We spend our lives trying to not hurt people, but lose ourtselves. This is the reason no psychologist will condone sacrificial love, it does not work. The fact is, as many say re the ws, happiness is a personal choice. You cannot be responsible for H, kids, in-laws, family, or anyone elses feelings of happiness.....not by making yourself sleep in a bed you do not want to be in. No one can impose their happiness on another that way. None of them have to sleep in your bed, nor are any of then going to let you tell them how to conduct their intimate lives. You family and in-laws live like they want, they do not ask your permission, likewise kids grow up and do what they want, they don't live their lives based on making us happy. Ditto spouses. Hard as it is, there is no escape, choosing a mate has to be a blatantly selfish choice, it has to be what you want and cannot consider anyone else at all, anything less is sacrifice, a loss of identity, a loss of self-determination, you just cannot ask that of someone for your agenda. This comes up all the time, pressure exerted on a spouse to stay in marriage, but ya know what? It just says the folks care more about their wants and needs (you staying married, and fullfilling their picture), then they are about you, or your happiness. That is not ok. I do think one can make a limited sacrifice in the case of small children, but that is a parenting decision, not a marital decision. Eventually the piper will be paid, the payment is just deferred. But adult children have the same status as everyone else, their feelings are irrelevant, all that counts is whether you want to wake up next to that man everyday for the rest of your life, looking into his eyes, and wanting nothing more in life than to do it again tomorrow..... not for him....not for kids......not for MB.....but for you.<P>C&I....So I am not making one bit of progress here today. I am not clarifying my points to myself or anyone else....guess it's time to go...but SNL Thanks for your perspective. <P>snl...Progress? Depends on how it is measured, but since you seek illumination, and understanding, it is all progress. Just remember, no decision is a decision too, everyday you remain in emotional limbo extracts a price from your life, and everyone it touches. Leave, or stay, you need to find your passion and act on it. It is all scarey, you only have one life, and spending it foolishly is unwise, and painful. That was another thing I learned, no matter what I do it is going to be hard, and painful. But doing nothing is the worst choice of all. Good luck.

SNL<P>Okay....you have me pegged. Way, way too much of what you said is applicable.<P>I'll give you the short list of the truths you have discovered about me...by the way, what brand of crystal ball are you using? It is very powerful!<BR>1....."one party is usually desperately lonely"---that would be me!<BR>2.....SNL...how much of the laughter and good interactions are on his terms, in his time? [Actually I can honestly say about 90% of the time.] <BR>3.....the "content" party dictates the emotional agenda, and the emotional temperature of the day.--Bingo <BR>4.....How does he react when you don't "play" by the unwritten rules, or when you challenge him hard? <BR>[He stonewalls until I give in, or her will record my "deed" in a mental notebook which will undoubtedly be used against me at some point in the future. But, he never shows physical agression...by that I mean shouting, turning red or blue or anything like that.]<P>SNL, A comment of yours made me sad and uncomfortable at the same time. "No one supports the notion a marriage should end for the well-being of the ws, rather you are pondscum, and just need to be reprogrammed."<P>5.....I feel that I already been 'programmed' to some extent....but others might see that as bending to accomodate another in a relationship. i.e. Compromise.<P>SNL..."It is very hard to escape when you are a conflict avoider, and hate hurting people."--It seems that it is not possible for some.... <P>6....."when is enough enough, and when will the loneliness end?" There is no answer to this....remember the balancing act...choose either side and you lose....fall in the crevice...you also lose.<P> SNL "Another thing I have concluded is seperation is a valid tool. It gives distance, and perspective to relationships that are dependent based, not love based." C&I I'm not sure I agree with this statement...after all, how can you work on a relationship if you are not together.<P>7....."Usually the dominant partner will resist it cause they are afraid the other will get away." This is absolutely true. I have been thwarted in 2 separation attempts. Both times my husband convinced me to stay...and things got better for a while....<P>You know SNL, I have told myself several times that it is one thing to choose to be <BR>lonely....another thing entirely to have lonliness foist upon you. However,those were always during my braver moments.<P>Regarding my canyon anology....Coaches side crumbled today....he was too overwhelmed and broke off contact with me again....All the better. I don't need this insanity.<BR> <P>All for now....Thanks again...<P>By the way Keirsey says I'm an Idealist....but you already knew that.

C&I....I'll give you the short list of the truths you have discovered about me...by the way, what brand of crystal ball are you using? It is very powerful!<P>snl...The same one we all have, only it is grey and kind of squishy not crystal [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] This stuff is knowable, and put a rationalist into crisis and he will find the answers, and he won't stop till he does. Also idealists and rationalists experience life the same way, and communicate very similarly, so not to hard to recognize, and fill in the blanks. On the other hand I did not understand gaurdians/artisans very well, even though I have been married to a gaurdian for 23 years. <P>It has been difficult, but I have come to understand all the temperaments better, and why there are these variations in what is love, marriage, bonding and such, and how they interact on intimate levels, it has been a fascinating (albeit incredibly painful) journey.<P>1....."one party is usually desperately lonely"---that would be me!<P>The thing is, the other temperament (I suspect your H is a gaurdian) is usually lonely to in some ways, it is just not as big an issue cause they have different worldviews re relationship issues (marital expectations). For an idealist it is life and death. Rationalists can go either way, some need a lot of interaction, others can sublimate to work, I am the former, a rationalist with idealist overtones. It seems at first the gaurdians just don't care, how could they let us suffer so, but the truth is more complex. It is more about they don't really understand, and they project their standards on us. As long as life is in order, the roof doesn't leak, food on the table, the kids healthy, all the rules followed (their rules, for everyones good doncha know), everything in order....what's to be unhappy about? There are to do lists to focus on, that is where security and safety reside.... etc. etc. And that is not bad, a motivated gaurdian is the salt of the earth, society would collapse without them, they keep things running smooth. <P>But these same traits conflict in intimate relationships with dreamers. I think gaurdians (especially male gaurdians) are drawn to female idealists, they recognize and appreciate the abstractness, the different focus on people and relationships, it is comforting and interesting, and they are very controllable. But when they convince one to marry them they do what gaurdians do, then time to settle down, stuff to be done, in a certain way, in a certain time, and they starve the very qualities in their mate that attracted them. These are some of the issues that affect fit, people must have at least a pretty close worldview, and psychological approach to that worldview to have a chance at nurturing each other IMO. Idealists continue to nurture, cause that is what idealists do, gaurdians protect, and get stuff done, cause that is what they do, but they are getting nurtured too, and thriving pretty much, but eventually the idealist starves to death, along the way the gaurdian notices (sometimes), and they care, but they don't know how to nurture the idealist, and unless they are motivated to learn, and do that hard work, their efforts are ineffective, and the marriage goes into withdrawal....<P>at which point idealists either become a shadow of who they really are, just a reflection of what everyone else needs, or they run away (bury themselves in kids stuff, social good....and/or divorce/affair)....occassionally they self-destruct and become chronically depressed or kill themselves. They will not generally fight for themselves, not cause they are afraid for themselves, but because they cannot stand hurting their families. Unfortuneately, they cannot save the family, cause a family with a dysfunctional idealist parent, is allready seriously damaged, and it is better (for all) for the idealist to save themself, and become healthy again. At the very least they need to do something to break the marital role modeling that has been taught to the kids. So hopefully they will not make the same mistake in who they marry, and how they nurture a spouse.<P>2.....SNL...how much of the laughter and good interactions are on his terms, in his time? [Actually I can honestly say about 90% of the time.]<BR> <BR>3.....the "content" party dictates the emotional agenda, and the emotional temperature of the day.--Bingo <P>4.....How does he react when you don't "play" by the unwritten rules, or when you challenge him hard? <BR>[He stonewalls until I give in, or her will record my "deed" in a mental notebook which will undoubtedly be used against me at some point in the future. But, he never shows physical agression...by that I mean shouting, turning red or blue or anything like that.]<P>snl..This was not hard to predict, it is the same life I lead.<P>C&I...SNL, A comment of yours made me sad and uncomfortable at the same time. "No one supports the notion a marriage should end for the well-being of the ws, rather you are pondscum, and just need to be reprogrammed."<P>5.....I feel that I already been 'programmed' to some extent....but others might see that as bending to accomodate another in a relationship. i.e. Compromise.<P>snl..Yes it was a bit of hyperbole, but the point is gaurdians are the largest segment of the population, and they dictate these things. An idealist or rationalist is far more likely to look at the well-being of all participants (including op) in an affair. But for a gaurdian, you have just broken a major rule, and there is nothing to discuss, you just fix it, and that means you start acting right, or you are gonna be excommunicated so to speak, punished severely....ie no one cares about pondscum. They are not motivated to negotiate, or search for answers, they know the answers, and too often they take you back as martyrs. You are their spouse, and they will stand by you, cause those are the rules, but nothing gets fixed. People should not compromise in a marriage, or bend. It does not work, and the more one has to do so, the more one wonders why be married (at least to this one) at all. Even marriage builders recognizes this, compromise means both give up something....poja means you find an enthusiastic alternate choice, or nothing happens. Gaurdians (or controllers of any temperament) do very poorly with this concept, and often will not participate in good faith. They prefer to reprogram you to realize the error of your ways, or needs, or whatever....<P>SNL..."It is very hard to escape when you are a conflict avoider, and hate hurting people."--It seems that it is not possible for some.... <P>6....."when is enough enough, and when will the loneliness end?" There is no answer to this....remember the balancing act...choose either side and you lose....fall in the crevice...you also lose.<P>snl...Ah but that is a limited view, and the weakness of an idealist. We think pain is to be avoided at all costs (especially others pain), but it is in pain we grow, and often heal too. True you (the idealist) do lose, you allready have C&I, cause no matter what you do, someone is gonna be unhappy, H, family, op, you sealed that fate when you allowed someone else in your heart. You must forgive yourself, and start walking the path of radical honesty. You cannot make everyone happy, but you can be honest about who you are, and what you will or will not do, and the marital outcome you give to God. If it is to be you will find in-love with your H, if not, you can choose accomodation (but now know how to negotiate acceptable conditions, if your H will negotiate), or you will accept it cannot work, and end it with as much caring as your H will allow. <P>SNL "Another thing I have concluded is seperation is a valid tool. It gives distance, and perspective to relationships that are dependent based, not love based." C&I I'm not sure I agree with this statement...after all, how can you work on a relationship if you are not together.<P>Seperation is a valuable and recognized tool by all psychologists, as well as the Bible. It is not a divorce, you are still married, but it serves to illuminate the dependentcy relationship for what it is. Often the dependent party will blossome and achieve a level of confidence able to stand up to the spouse, and/or leave. The dominant spouse gets to see what it is like to not have their spouse, and contemplate whether they are willing to change. You still interract in many ways, you just no longer have to deal with each other on a constant basis. IMO married people who are happier when their spouse is at work, or away, then they are when they are home need to seperate. Also for a spouse who has pretty much decided they do not want to be married, but are not strong enough to do it, can gather the strength to do so, by removing themself from the cloud and control which is often paralyzing them.<P>7....."Usually the dominant partner will resist it cause they are afraid the other will get away." This is absolutely true. I have been thwarted in 2 separation attempts. Both times my husband convinced me to stay...and things got better for a while....<P>snl...That is the pattern. If twice has not worked, if MB has not worked, it may be time for you to plan B him, he is not participating in good faith.....it may be he never will, it may be you really don't want to anymore either, and it is sooooooo hard to admit that to oneself, but whatever the truth, seperation is another tool, a powerful one, and an important one in regaining control of ones life.<P>C&I...You know SNL, I have told myself several times that it is one thing to choose to be lonely....another thing entirely to have lonliness foist upon you. However,those were always during my braver moments.<P>snl...You are not a victim C&I, no one is holding you captive, you are choosing this...you are everybit as responsible as your H for the state of your marriage. That is very hard for an idealist to accept. You are doing no one any favors by avoiding the pain of confrontation. Give the fear up to God, and get radically honest, it is the only path to healing. Even if you end up in divorce (which is not sure at all) it is not an ending, it is a new beginning for both of you, to find someone you fit with, someone you can bond with. By being honest you insure the process works as well as it can, just giving up, or running away, resolves things too, but not in a positive way for anyone.<P>C&I...Regarding my canyon anology....Coaches side crumbled today....he was too overwhelmed and broke off contact with me again....All the better. I don't need this insanity.<P>snl....It is better to deal with H and not in conflict with another. But I assume in coach you got a glimpse of how it could be. It may be coach is not worthy, or it may be he recognizes you must do this without his interference. It is a very narrow path for an op to walk, being a friend, but not confusing you, in any event crumbled or waiting out of temptation range, you have to do this yourself. Even here I have pushed the line of manipulation, being supportive in ways that could be viewed as encouraging you to leave your marriage. IRL we would be dangerous for each other, cause we share similar temperaments, and I know what you are feeling and experiencing. You will continue to be vulnerable to other empaths, as they seek to heal you, and you them, it is part of fitting...keep that in mind and resolve your marriage before you find yourself trying to survive again, but in an inappropriate way. Maybe if you hit your H with a big enough 2 x 4 you will get his attention, and he will apply that genius to understanding who you are, and what he must change. But don't do it if you are not prepared to walk the path to the end. I was paralyzed until I finally decided, one way or another I am not going to live the rest of my life this way. The old marriage is gone, a new one will replace it, or it will end, and it will be passionately chosen. But that was my deciison, yours may be different, at least make it be an informed decision.<P>C&I...All for now....Thanks again...<P>snl...You are welcome.

Okay SNL--now you've made me cry....out of what I don't know. Sadness? Frustruation?<BR>Just how did you acquire this depth of insight? <P>You are right...the ball is in my court. Am I brave enough to pick up and shoot? I don't know... I have accomplished many things in my life...physically and academically. This emotional arena is new...and scary. <P>You were right when you said "no one is holding you captive, you are choosing this...you are everybit as responsible as your H for the state of your marriage" <BR>SNL, I have never been one to "pass-the-buck", I'm a good old girl [TX] ready to take her licks when I derseve them....it's just the part about passing them on to my family that concerns me.<P>I'm considering letting my husband read this post. What do you think?