Absolutely amazing.<P>My son is having a real hard time with feeling good about himself. Kids don't like him in school, he's in a HUGE hitting slump, loads of homework, not to mention that his brother died and his family is falling apart. He really is not happy and questions why his life is so hard. It breaks my heart.<P>I'll do anything to help him. Even stop Plan B.<P>Got in a big conversation with my wife after tonight's game because <son> fell apart.<P>Her: We have to be friends to be able to help <son>. He's being harmed so much because you won't be friends with me. We are going to divorce and it's in the best interest of <son> that we be able to get along in matters that concern him.<P>Me: OK, I understand, but wouldn't it be in his best interest if we DON'T divorce?<P>Her: No. I don't want to be married to you or live with you. I stopped loving you years ago because you couldn't meet anybody's needs but your own. And you haven't changed since I left you. That stupid Plan A and Plan B is nothing more but a way for you to try to control me and manipulate me. Can't you see that? You've done horrendous things to me in the past year because of that ridiculous counselor you have. You've tried to hurt me and ruin me financially. I can't even imagine what has motivated you to do these mean things to me. Didn't you see how this would hurt <son>? What were you thinking? I don't believe for a minute that it's "too painful" for you to asscociate with me. Don't you think for a minute that keeping this up will cause me to come back to you. It makes no sense at all. <P>Me: <Speechless>.<P>I mean, how can I respond to that? I know I shouldn't even try.<P>Me: (Finally) I'd love to discuss all of this with <son's> counselor because it affects him.<P>She went on to blast me more for being aligned with MB and she says that people on this forum wrote violent things like, "I wish I could get my hands on her and shake her some."<P>But the petty kicker was a short exchange about the dogs.<P>Her: You have to do something about the dogs because <son> knows you're unhappy having them. Why can't you just lighten up and enjoy them?<P>Me: Well, why can't you take one? It was a shared responsibility.<P>Her: You know I can't afford it!! How many times do I have to tell you that?<P>Me: Well, I'm sorry you can't afford it, but that's none of my concern. Why can't you take some responsibility for one of them?<P>Her: Don't you understand that when you made the decision NOT to leave the house, you were accepting the responsibility of everything in it? You could have left like I asked you to, but NOOOOOO, you made the decision not to leave. Therefore, you have to take care of the dogs. You need to accept that the marriage is over blah, blah, blah. You and <OM's W> blew our innocent friendship WAY out of proportion. If you hadn't made such a big deal out of our little innocent trip to Chicago, none of this probably would have happened, but our marriage would STILL be over.<P>I have to help my son. I don't see my wife coming out of this twisted logic influence of the Mothership any time soon. He is stressed because of my devotion to Plan B because it causes stress for my wife. Her stress is caused by my son's problems and she believes my Plan B separation makes it harder to work together for <son>.<P>I feel like I'm in a no win situation. She's hell bent on divorce and I believe it will happen. For my son's sake - if I can't restore the family - why should I continue with Plan B?<P>WAT

Dave,<P>Plan B isn't just for you to stop meeting needs of your W .. it is also, and more importantly, for you to distance yourself from your wife so you can emotionally detach and make it on your own with as little damage to your self esteem as possible. <B> IT'S FOR YOU AND YOUR INDIVIDUAL RECOVERY</B><P>Good Lord, the hurt and conflict you must be going thru right now regarding your son. I'm sorry Dave. <P>I think you need a session with Steve on this. After all the time and energy spent following the Harley's concepts and principals .... and if now you're thinking of bagging Plan B, you should most certainly talk to Steve first, no?<P>I'm gonna say something and I hope I don't regret it. I'm leaning in the direction that what you have told us is true, your W is somewhat of a controlling personna.<P>I wish you the best, and only the best, Dave.<P>God Bless you and son.<P>Love,<BR>Jo<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Hugs Dave...<P>My heart is with you...sometimes it just seems easier to give up, no...give in...why fight?<P>But as Jo says plan b...when done for the right reasons...IS FOR YOU...<P>You can still be 'pleasant' to W regarding son...<P>besides...anything we do that goes against what they 'want' is seen as mean, manipulative and controlling...<P>I sometimes feel that my words are going into the air and getting garbled before they reach his ears...<P>Cali

Wat,<P>I see what you mean about Plan B, you certainly have a good argument. It sounds to me like your wife is using your son to get to you. Maybe your son knows too much about what is going on. He should not really know about Plan B. What is really hurting him is your wife and you having conversations like this one in front of him. And it sounds like she may be saying very similar things around him when you are not there. You are separated but your son has no peace in his life.<P> If you end Plan B, what does that mean? Does that mean that your W will suddenly quite these convoluted conversations? I think not. They will probably happen more. Does it mean that you and she will parent together more effectively? Probably not.<P>You can continue with a modified Plan B but still work on co-parenting issues. Is not OK for her to give you a hard time in front of your son. Perhaps you and she need to see his counselor to come up with an agreed upon way to discuss issues about your son.<P>On thing that you really need to impress on her is that you are no longer living as man a wife. She no longer has the right to rant and rave at you whenever she pleases (not that a wife really does have the right anyway). When she discusses things about your son, she needs to stick to the topic.<P>She obviously does not understand what plan A and plan B are all about. So just don’t use the terms with her. Just do it.<P>Z

What happened with the appointment with the counselor? <P>If and when divorce happens, do you have it in you to be "friends' with her? What does she mean by being friends any way? You are already being civil and cooperative. Does she expect for the two of you to have some kind of relationship? How do you feel Dave? <P>I think she feels guilty for breaking up the family, thus her continued hostility and frustration and pettiness. I'd guess she's trying to make you feel guilty and that if she can get you to agree to some kind of friendship, her own guilt related to the ill effect her behavior and actions has had on your son would be lessened. Might not some counseling sessions with you and son, work to explain and enlighten your son, as to why it is extremely difficult to be just friends with her, while at the same time eliminate his discomfort by pledging to be cordial and cooperative in parenting with her?<P>I don't know Dave. I think her motivation is purely selfish and directed towards eliminating her own guilt. However, your son should be the last one to suffer. I really think you ought to sit down with your son's counselor and find out exactly where he's at from someone who's heard it directly from son and can offer an objective point of view to the whole situation.Then be a dad first and decide what's best for your boy.

mthrrhbard,<P>How do you do that? Talking about clarity of the situation.<P>Thank God we have you here.<P>Jo

Dave<P>Sorry your son is having a hard time. My heart breaks for him, he is truely the inoccent party in all of this mess.<P>Sounds as if your W maybe doing some ranting in front of him. It is hard not to do so, I know I am guilty of that some but when my boys push my buttons usual OS, it is hard not to reply back well if your father hadn't done......whatever. I am getting better but it is hard. I bend over backwards trying to make things easier for all of them & then I get blamed. sorry didn't mean to go off on me<P>btw think I am the violent one, I am pretty sure the LB fairie has wanted to come shake some sense into your wife. Really funny when I am a very passive person<P>Talk to Steve, set up an appointment & talk to son's counselor again by yourself (of course your W may think you are going behind her back)<P>One thing my STBX refuses to do is fight in front of the boys, we may go at in emails but in person we are very civil, even sitting together at OS last ftball game. YS doesn't like it when I sit somewhere else. <P>I wish peace for you & your son

I am so sorry she is being like this.... really... want you to know I am lurking and call me if you want... I'm still here at home :-(

Hi Dave,<P>Well you certainly can't do no right. That sounds like a sad love song. <P>She is 50% right and you are 50% wrong. Go figure. The calculator is broken again......<P>Now Dave, I recommend that you plan B for your info with her but plan A regarding your son. That should remove the eliminate of guilt she is attempting to use on you. Remember the purpose of plan B. <P>If your son is having difficulties then the question is, how is the mother of this child addressing those problems? What is your son actually telling the counselor? You already know when to admit your guilt but let her know that admitting guilt to make her feel better by admitting to a lie is not acceptable for you. <P>Does your son really say stuff to you about his mom? Is she filling in the blanks to come with those accusations? Hope not. Ask her, even if 1/2 of what your son says is true what does she plan to do? Would she like you to tell your son, that son's mom is being a good mom by living away from the family, that going with another man to another city is ok and that all mom's should do those things? Maybe your son has already let others know that his mom is doing these good things? If your son has, that is beyond your control, what will she do then? Maybe that has already happened? Remember she did no wrong, so it should be ok. <P>Now she could accuse you of being sarcastic but she needs to be aware that you can not control what your son says and does when he is out of your presence. <P>If your son is coming to these conclusions on his own, then your W needs to be aware. My 6 year old figured out his dad was with another woman without my saying anything. I am sure your son is more astute. <P>Hm..... more to think about. Again, I am not a counselor just a spouse who also went through some rough times with my spouse who said and did many hurtful things. <P>L.

Wat,<BR>I'm sorry to hear that. I don't have that kind of experience to advise you in this matter. That's where I'm stuck. Whenever I look at my kids I couldn't break my family apart. People can flame me for that. They can call me a doormat if they want to. I might not be happy with my wife's action but at least I know my kids are somewhat happy to see their parents are still together. I know it might do harm than good in the long run but no one knows what the future will turn. <P>That's why I CAN'T go to plan B, not yet anyway. My wife is still with me. We are still doing thing together as a family. That's where it counts so far. It doesn't mean I'm out of the wood yet. <P>Wat, I think Z is right about your wife didn't understand about plan A and plan B. Don't say anything related to those plans. Just do whatever your heart tell you to. It is your life but no one else. You know what is best for you, for your son, and maybe for your wife too.<P>Mrs. WAT if you happen to read this. Your husband still loves you very much. Deep down inside of you I think you still cares for him. I'm saying this not to make you think that I'm on his side. I'm just another human being who tries to save my own family from breaking apart. If I can help in someway to have you think that people are not perfect, that including you, me, WAT, and other. But to be friend you two have to start somewhere. That's where you have to play a part of it to. Action speaks louder than word. <P>Peace and god bless your family.<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]

I think I said in your other thread that conflict is good, and I repeat that here. If she was withdrawn, not reacting etc, then I would worry a lot more. She is finding ways to push your buttons, and criticizes you because it does not appear to be working the way she thinks it should...or you aren't reacting in the way she expects. <P>Therefore you have changed WAT, she knows it darn well, but is trying to put you back in the categorised box she made for you, where she thinks you belong. If you were back in that box, it would justify her actions. That she can't get you to LB must frustrate the h**l out of her.<P>I feel for you regarding your son,too. I have a boy right now who is finding things very difficult because of our break up, and he doesn't speak to me or his father at all. I am getting him into counselling now. <P>Why I bring this up is that I would imagine your son has lost a lot of trust in his mother, like my boy has for his dad...and maybe he is NOT talking to her at all about things. He may be clamming up, which would frustrate her, and rather than blame herself, she blames you. Forget blame here, this is a child, and he needs fixing. If you cannot do it on your own, get therapy for him.<P>I hope that for the sake of your child, you and your w can come to some peaceful impasse, at least when he is around...he is more important than either of you (not that I think YOU don't know that WAT!).<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Thanks, you guys.<P>My wife's perception of MB and Plan A/B comes, I think, from a few of my forum posts that my SIL printed out and sent to her back in the summer. I love my SIL, but she didn't help matters at all by selecting the posts she sent. But what I said in those posts is my responsibility and I hold no ill feelings towards her. It's the classic case of "one oh s**t cancels a thousand atta boys." I have never discussed Plan A/B with W, although I did send her a copy of SAA. Clearly she doesn't understand, but based on the posts SIL sent her, I can understand her perception.<P>None of these conversations took place in my son's presence - my W has not done her ranting (to me) in front of him. I have never discussed Plan A/B with him, other than explaining my efforts in Plan A to self-improve and asking his input for his perspective on things I do that bother him.<P>Yes, I am guilty of saying too many things to my son about our problems, but NEVER in an attempt to demean my wife. If the truth has that effect, so be it. I cannot and will not lie to my son to cover for his mother. I did that once when we told him the reasons we were separating. That said, I believe she's using him in her charade to justify her behavior and I will address this with her in the presence of the counselor. The only good news here for <son> is that we appear to be heading toward frequent counseling sessions in our joint efforts to help him. Only good can come from that.<P>After sleeping on this whole episode, I can clearly see the typical WS behavior, especially the revisionist history thing and the "my relationship with OM has nothing to do with any of this" mindset. I like Marsha's statement, "I sometimes feel that my words are going into the air and getting garbled before they reach his ears..." Amen to that.<P>One of the things W said in the conversation was that she asked <son's> former shrink about Plan A/B and he agreed with her that it was a bunch of hooey. I'm tempted to call him and ask.<P>Jacky - actually, it appears that my son talks quite a bit to my W and complains about me and Taz - our au pair. I'm sure some of this is because we try to get him to eat better and we are more strict regarding TV time and doing homework early. So, I'm not surprised he's playing us against each other a bit as is normal (to a certain extent). He may be emotionally closer to his Mom due to the motherly nurturing thing and I expect he has talked to her about differences he sees in our perspectives on our family crisis. He knows of my dislike and disrespect of OM - a former friend and pallbearer in our deceased son's funeral - yet he sees him regularly as "normal" - because his Mom obviously has a different view of him. Interestingly, he paints OM's W as a nut case - always referring to her as "crazy" on those rare occasions when we interact with her. Hmmmm, wonder where he got THAT from?<P>According to his counselor, <son> knows we both love him dearly and he's torn between us - trying desperately to please us both. He is afraid of me getting angry at him - leftovers from before the affair and before Plan A when I admit I did not respect him as much as I should have, but still today, a point my W loves to rub in my face.<P>To Motherhubbard; please e-mail me your address at dcscandals@yahoo.com .<P>To SIL - I love you and say again that I have nothing but <son's> and your sister's best interest in mind. You know how hard I've worked and that I will do anything to help her, even after letting her go and not resisting her divorce. Please, just don't misrepresent me again.<P>WAT

Dave,<P>Sometimes it sounds no matter what you do it makes your W angry. You try & change, wrong thing, you become a better father, but not good enough for her. I keep seeing one of her dogs chasing its on tail because she can't find anything else to complain about, her logic runs in a never ending circle, <B>IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT</B> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <P>How does your son feel about all the counseling? I thought I remember you mentioning he didn't like it. My OS doesn't he tells me if I make him go, he will lie, like he did in Singapore to the witch shrink.<P>Good luck as always.

Dave,<BR>I sent you my e-mail addy.<P>Jo,<BR>You are much too kind!