Well, WS had her first individ. therapy session last night and just called me to tell me how it went. She told the C that her goals were to see where she was in the whole marriage, separation, divorce picture, whether or not she should carry on the EMA relationship, and whether she was generally a healthy person. She also asked how the counsellor ranked in terms of traditional religion- "pretty traditional".<p>She said that we need to talk about it, and I asked what I should expect.<p>She said that she couldn't get into it but that I (she might have said "probably") wouldn't like what she was going to have to say.<p>I told her that no matter what she said, I wasn't going to give up on our marriage. I know that I can make her happy, but that I know I hadn't done so in the last year.<p>
HELP! I'm terrified that she's going to tell me she wants a divorce....after only 2 months of an A? I hope that she only wants to remain separated, but I'm so scared it's worse than that.<p>
What do I say to her?<p>Please help!
Kev<p>[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]<p>[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kevco,
There's not a lot you can say or do at this point. Being in the same place, I find that in most cases anything I say will likely make matters worse. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You're plan Aing, she knows how much you love her, she knowns what you offer. As hard as it is, give her some space and time and just be there when she needs you to be. It's tough to be sure! Be her friend. I know it's not any help, I can say it and it certainly doesn't make it any easier for me to do.
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I have a little mantra I repeat to myself when I start losing my grip: "Time and patience, give her space, you have no control". Find something that helps you remain focused. Best of luck to you man.<p>Take care,
Paul

kev,
My H told me he was divorcing me...he never saw a lawyer. After 2 years of the turmoil, I served him D papers, and he did not want me to continue the D process.<p>An affair is not necessarily the end of a marriage, separations is not necessarily the end of the marriage, even saying the dreaded "d" word--or pursuing it is not the end.<p>It sounds like she still talks to you, for now, stick with Plan A and loving her. That's your role right now. It's difficult, but it is your part of making a reconciliation possible, even as she seems to be going in the opposite direction.

kevco,<p>You're hitting the challenge that many BSs have to live and cope with - and that is that the WS seems to be in control of the situation. It is the WS who has the power to choose, whereas the BS must wait for a decision. I don't agree with the BS playing victim - it's a weak, untenable position. I prefer to show that I'm not dependant on anybody and I'm only interested in a relationship if it's on an equal footing. What you can do is either try and change the power base by putting yourself on that equal footing with the WS or you can play the waiting game.<p>If you choose to get on an equal footing it will win their respect (because it surprises them) but it does mean that you need to clearly show your boundaries. Yes, you are prepared to work at the marriage, yes you want it to work. But these are the parameters which are acceptable to you - for example, there is to be no contact with the OM, there are to be no surprises in the future so you want everything there is to be said out on the table now, you accept that there will be setbacks during the recovery but this doesn't mean given up on the relationship, etc, etc. <p>Discuss your expectations so that your wife understands them. Tell her that you're prepared to do everything you can but selling your soul to the devil isn't part of the deal. You both have to agree on how to move forward and what is acceptable. Only then can you move forward on an equal basis. <p>If you choose the waiting game, then don't try to second guess her. Resolve yourself to discuss what she wants. You never know, she may pleasantly surprise you.<p>- Freddy

Hi, kev!
I know that terror feeling well. Take a deep breath. Remain calm. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] THat is the best thing you can do. Be prepared for whatever he has to tell you. Be respectful of her decisions - or thoughts, as she expresses them. Listen to her. Ask questions, like why do you feel that way. When you have a chance to respond, be sure to tell her you believe you can turn this around, and get things back on track with your marriage, and learn some things to make it better than before. Say you have already learned some things about yourself. Suggest you take your time - she take her time - to really be sure what she wants. THat you are here for her during this decision process. If you say you are fighting for the marriage, that puts her on the defensive, so try to avoid wording it like that. <p>just a few ideas. Keep us posted. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Kev,
If only we could tell you and get you to understand what NORMAL behavior this is for a WS in the fog. My H called me 2 days after I caught him with OW for the first time, and was UGLY. He said I hadn't changed (as far as I went OFF on him and OW when I caught them, who wouldn't?), that I would never change, and he wanted a divorce. Then he proceeded to ask me if I would take care of it (I work for attorneys). I said "you're kidding right?" He said "no." I said "I think you're reacting pretty hastily, and so if you want a divorce, I'm not going to do the work for you." Well, after we talked (he was ugly, I mostly listened) for about 45 minutes, I hung up. 10 minutes later, he calls crying and says he doesn't want a divorce, he is SOOO mixed up, he doesn't know what to do. I said (H), go figure out your life. That was in May; he waffled all the way up until 10/2. Some days when I talk to him, I feel as if he's still waffling. Do what the others have said; listen respectfully, try to get your point across without LB'ing. Just do your best Plan A. It hardly seems fair, but if we as the BS don't initially do it, who's going to? They are to deep, usually, in the fog to want to fix anything by doing anything other than running away from it all. More prayers coming your way.<p>MOM

Kevco,<p>Threatening time. Control tug of war here. WS thinks she sees clearly and wants to make life changes. <p>Is she ready? Can she? Will she? You are afraid. I know and understand. Now I am going to tell you that there is not a whole lot you can do at this point. <p>She may not listen to you but expects you to listen to her. You know your priorities. Understand that she is not on the same page with you. <p>Based on the above, you can let her know how you feel, then let her go do her thing. See there is no guarantee that she knows how to do her thing. She may even want you to do it for her!!!!! <p>You control your actions and let her know she needs to control hers. I let my H know that his actions as well as mine would cause actions and reactions among others. This is a normal process in life. Somehow the A people think they can do their thing without an impact to anyone. Unless they are living like a hermit, that is not possible. <p>What I share is what I have done. It may or may not be what you need to do, so take my thoughts with a cupful of salt!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My H talked the D word, OW gave him the websites (about 5) to do a quickie D. WS bought the books and CD to print the forms. I went to the courthouse, consulted with an Attorney, went on the web and asked many questions from a lawyers web site and looked up the CA D laws. Guess who was more prepared? After my research and viewing my options, I told H go ahead. H renegged, he said the H paperwork was too hard. Go figure. <p>Take it slow and let us know what you need. <p>Take care,
L.<p>[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Thank you all, I will try to not lose faith (or my temper!)<p>This all just seems to be going SO fast....granted I've been a lousy husband (and "emotionally divorced") for a year, but the A and the possibility of a divorce all seem too quick.<p>I just want for her to not cut off ALL contact w/ me so that she CAN SEE that I truly am working on my faults (for ME, if not for her).<p>Your continued comments are welcome...I'll check back in this eve.<p>Again, thank you.
Kev

kevco-,
I am in the same situation right now, WW still talks D. The funny thing is she could just walk to any lawyer in town and be done with it. Many people will tell you to "stand up" and so on and I am very tempted to do so. However you should concentrate not to LB (as W defined the term) and work on yourself. The more change you show her the better and also do not push it. W might label it as fake and so on but be consistent and presistent (unless W told you is an LB). This is also to "train" us to make the changes to be come habit. It is hard when you co-habitat w/ WW and A still going on. If you are a christian check on my post on waiting<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=013327<p>Right now W still not sure.

I don't know if it's going to be talk of D or just talk of total separation for her to sort things out....Either way, I truly believe I've lost. If she's determined to D, because she's not (normally) the type of person to make major decisions and then to go back on them, I don't think there'll be any out. Similarly, if she's going to talk of a complete separation, then I've already lost because I haven't been the H that I've wanted or needed to be for over a year and that's what she'll likely be basing her decisions upon.<p>I just don't see much hope right now. I know that I'd much rather #2 above, but STILL, that's not much of an option.<p>I'm just SO afraid of losing the ONE thing in my life that truly completes me. I see NOW, what it was that I should have been doing the whole time, but I just don't get the chance.<p>I'm just so sorry I failed her; me; us. I don't know what I'm going to do. I pray constantly that God give me strength and her clarity. That God can see it in his plan to give us a chance. I'd take just one in a million. I want no guarantees, I wouldn't accept one because I know these are SERIOUS issues to be resolved. I know it would take months if not YEARS to attain the relationship that I hope for.....but she's told me she's not sure she wants to work that hard for it.<p>
I'm so lost! I'm losing my best friend, and I can't do anything about it.<p>K

sorry for the bump, but I'm desperate for guidance!
K

Hi Kevco,<p>You need to step back, collect your thoughts and breathe. It is NOT the end of the world. Just a bump in the road of life. Big bump maybe but a bump none the less. <p>You will survive. You will become a better person. Think about becoming a better person so that when she is ready, really ready to come back to her family you will be strong enough to help the both of you. <p>You will need that strength, Kevco. Read around here. Many of the guys have gone through really rough times. Us women can be a mean bunch when riled up. Stubborn, prideful, selfish and greedy. Ooops did I just describe a WS or a woman? Hm....... guess that could be any of us. <p>Love will find a way. Remember that. Now stop anticipating. Anticipate only if you are thirsty and want a beer nothing else. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>OK?<p>L.

Wow, I really hate therapists (actually they're both counsellors)....that's twice in two weeks that I disagree with their outlook.<p>The C told WS that she thought that she was pretty much done with the M, and had been for quite some time....nothing like empowering it.<p>I understand that W has had some SERIOUS issues with the M and me specifically over the last year (at least). I also realize that she's grown quite a bit in the last year (when she was all but forced to be independant by me). But to base the decision to end a 12 year relationship over a single bad one....don't get me wrong, the three previous were seriously up and down, but only the last year has been really bad (even then, we had some great times like our Alaska trip this past June).<p>See victoria farrar's post in the topic "More from SNL on WS psychology" (page 3) to see right where W is.<p>She's convinced that she wants a D right now. She didn't expect me to agree tonight, but she's sure pressing that issue. And she's also going for pretty much total separation, though she agreed to dinner once a week (but no other contact except in case of emergency- does my undying love count as an emergence?).<p>I took full responsibility for all the terrible things that I've done over the last 4 years...hmmm let me count them.<p>
I had an EA.
I didn't tell her about it.
I began to avoid conversation for fear of it coming up and me losing her.
I stopped talking about ANY problems in the M.
I disrespected her- emotionally, intellectually, etc...
I completely removed myself the last year (emotionally, communicatively, respectfully, recreationally, sexually...pretty much all the EN's).
I freaked out when D-day rolled around.
I freaked out when I caught them corresponding.
I made them sign a contract to stop it.
I physically threatened her (if only for a moment).
I assulted her car.
I (irresponsibly) told her she could see him, and then FREAKED out when I caught them together.
I told her cousin the whole story.
I told her parents the whole story.
I had her parents perform an intervention to stop the A.<p>
Well, those are most of them, anyway. I asked her to please find it in her heart to forgive me for those things. She said that some of them (parents) might just be TOO much, might have put the last nail in the coffin.<p>I asked her if there were some miracle that could happen that would persuade her to even CONSIDER working on the M, what would it be....couldn't come up with one.<p>She told me she's been emotionally D for over a year. I let her read Victoria's post and told her that I understand that that's just about where she's at. I HAVE been trying to consider this from her side, I know that we have to make OURSELVES happy, I know that we can't be concerned with what others think, I know that she's grown (independantly of me), I know that I too WILL grow, I realize that I may not even want HER when we get to our respective growth points.<p>But I love her so much and it just doesn't matter. I really see no choice but to resign myself to a D. I don't want to accept it, I've BEGGED God to at least give us a CHANCE to consider reconciliation. I've begun to work on the things that I need to change....through therapy. None of it matters at this point, just "too little too late." Even though it's never really too late in my mind.<p>I requested that we try to be friends for a couple of months and that she try to find it in her heart to forgive my transgressions. Then we can reevaluate and consider a D then.<p>WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE? I hurt so badly, I'm physically sick.

Is she truly convinced or just babbling? Hm...... if you think she means what she says and says what she means then you will react accordingly. You don't sound real convinced though and with that thought, I would tell her that. <p>Not push it but I let my H know that if he really wanted the D and meant all that I haven't ever really loved you stuff, then please by all means go ahead. I really didn't want to be with someone who really didn't really want to really be with me. foggy?? You bet. I fogged his brain often. confused him and made him think!!!! That was my goal....... I couldn't make him think with logic so I double talked him until he stopped in his tracks. Oh, OW hated that the WS would even try to think. <p>See now I am learning that the OW was 'telling H how to feel'. hm...... she told him how to eat, sleep, feel, think, talk, walk, etc. A control freak? In my opinion yes. <p>So I say, set a goal. When you are ready, tell your W you need to do exactly what she has done so you can move on. I had a dream...... (for real), I had a dream that gave me the strenght to know that I would not be cast aside for life. That there would be someone to care and love me. If it was not H, it would be someone better. Hm..... with that thought, I told H go ahead, get the D. That shook him up. Shook up OW also. She enjoyed making me miserable. Gave her some sort of power. <p>Ahh.... when I reclaimed control over my life and no longer gave into the whims of the OW's control, I became stronger. A better person. <p>Yes, I had great moments of depression and even wanted to end it all, but I was able to bounce back. <p>You say all of this is making you sick. I am here to tell you that you need to pay attention to your body. Sometimes we experience anxiety attacks. This is our body telling us 'no more stress'. Listen to it. Visit your doctor, talk to your counselor. Deal with it and soon. You only have 1 body. I did get very ill, I don't recommend it as a way out. <p>Take care of yourself. please!!!!!
L.

I just don't understand it. Why would a friend (let alone a spouse) just give up? Why wouldn't one do everything in their power to get the other the help they needed before just giving up on the relationship and going dead?<p>She seems rational in all of this. But then she says that she doesn't want to continual a PA while still married, but she wants to "date" the OM.<p>She says that she just doesn't see us being right for each other any more...and I know that the ME of the last year absolutely wasn't the right man for her OR ME. But to have just given up after being together for 12 years....and not even being receptive to the history being brought up as a partial justification for at least EXPLORING the possibility of working on the M. I just don't get it.<p>She said that all the requests that I was making for more time was just me dictating the time schedule; she feels like she just wants to get on with life...well, he** yes. Of course I want to delay this process, I've said from the start that it's all just too quick. I replied that I feel as rushed as she feels held back (I think she really understood that point). <p>I told her that no matter how clearly she is thinking, that until/unless the A is put on hold, I believe that it'll remain a part of the decision making process. You just plain can't evaluate relationship X when all you want is to start in relationship Y (not in my eyes, anyway). I know, I was right there 4 years ago.<p>Why can't she see that, why won't she listen.<p>I'm afraid that she'll never come out of the fog until it's well too late. At some point, I HAVE to move on with my life. I'll never love anyone like I've loved her (Like I still do). I just don't think it'll be possible. I'm pretty hard to convince to give second chances (at least I have been). I didn't speak to my mother for 9 years because she did this very thing (left for OM). I just don't know if I'd be able to get over it if WS decided to come back in a year.<p>Why didn't I find this site prior to D-day? It would have at least caused me to THINK a little before I did some of the horrible things of the past couple of weeks.<p>All I have are questions. I have hopes to the answers, but no real ones. I pray that God will reveal them to me {soon, maybe in one of those dreams [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] }<p>I'm at a complete loss for what to do. At least after D-day, I had the flood of emotions to draw upon for action. Now, I'm only feeling complete despair. I honestly feel worse right now than before the anti-depressants, great!<p>I just don't know which way to procede. Sorry to be SO needy this last week. But I can't be needy to WS, I've seen what THAT begets. You people are my saving grace at this point. I hope to be able to return some of that.<p>
Thank you.<p>k<p>[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]<p>[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Hey Kevco,<p>You are crying out for help (that is ok), but when it comes your way, can you acknowledge it? It seems like you are asking for help over and over again. Some people are trying to post to you but you seem to keep asking the same thing. <p>Maybe it's just my perception........ We want to help but you have to work with us, Kevco.<p>You are in this deep, can't see the forest for the trees and you are sounding desparate. Step back and reassess your whole situation. Can you control your W's actions? No. You can mention it to her but the WS in the fog likes to remind the Bs that they can not be controlled. They are right but it doesn't mean they are right. Get that!?!?!?! <p>Your W will try to convince you that you are wrong 50% of the time and she is right 50% of the time. Is that correct? No. But she may think that anyway. So what do you do? You don't get suckered into that kind of thinking nor do you let your actions lead you that way. <p>Set your goals and sites in the right direction. Work towards a clear mind and a calm heart. Show your W what a sane person is like. Be her shining star, she will sit up and take notice. She may not tell you that but in most cases the BS actions to better themselves do not go unnoticed by the WS. <p>L.

Orchid,<p>Hmmm, that's funny, my reply of a few minutes ago went POOF, I'll try again.<p>Thank you for your works of calm. I AM trying to take in and understand the guidance I'm receiving here. Please know that. I'm trying to be very thoughtful in this whole process because I know that's the only way that I can procede successfully. No more kneejerk reactions (hopefully).<p>I am trying to step back and see the trees (there are just so many). I know that I can't control WS actions/thoughts. I know that I HAVE done that for several years, and I know that she resents that fact. I didn't intend to become my father, it just sort of happened and I don't like that part of myself (along with several other parts).<p>I'm trying desperately to make some sense of this and to see it from her side. Actually, I don't particularly blame her for seeking her ENs elsewhere...I've been a horrible husband for at least a year. For that part, I've already forgiven her. Right now, I'm working on forgiving myself for the last 4 years and I understand that's going to take time.<p>It's just hard for me to comprehend and accept that it may be over. I know that I have to work on ME, and I am. I'm just sad that it's not going to matter much to her/us.<p>I know that right now she just wants to "get on with her life, because she was done a long time ago." She even repeated to me something that I had said to "them" in the last couple of weeks....Just end it (M when she said it, A when I said it) and if it's truly meant to be, then it will happen later. Just sounds like she REALLY wants to jump right into another permanent (or potentially so) relationship.<p>I WILL try to listen and understand these posts. I'm just so overwhelmed right now. At least I'm not in quite as much of a panic today as last night.<p>Thank you for your kind words.
God bless,
K

Hmmmmm, A 19 yo should get pretty old, pretty quick if your wife is close to your age. Likewise, I'm sure a 30 something woman won't fit in real well with his crowd of friends.<p>Tell her you love her. Tell her you're sorry and that you will be going to counseling to learn how to transform yourself into what a husband should be. Tell her you respect her need to decide if she wants to remain married and let her go. Don't push her for contact, take what she's willing to give (even if it is only dinner once a week). During those times be loving and caring and interested and enjoy your time together. Be the man she fell in love with. DO NOT GROVEL. Weak is not attractive. Be strong, loving and self assured.Make REAL changes in yourself. Focus on YOU, not on her. That's the way to win her back.

Oh, BTW, many, many recovered people hear have heard the exact same things you are hearing right now. My H said the same thing your W is saying "I've been done with this marriage for a long time now". We're happily recovered going on our third year in rebuilding a marriage that's a hundred fold better than the old one. What she's saying now about how she feels doesn't carry a lot of weight, she's in the fog. Give her a chance to experience the life she says she wants and give reality a chance to set in with her. Do not analyze everything she says, you'll be wasting the time and energy you should be expending on improving yourself.