Ah, well Aus, it is very typical for the H to be put aside after babies are born. No, it is not right, but I know that once my kids were born I had an overwhelming sense of responsibility and some fear. I was also exhausted so the thought of fulfilling yet another person's needs when all day all you've done is nurture and care for others is, well, damn hard. I wish NOW I had been clear with my H about what my NEW needs were once the role of Mother was added to my "repertoire". Had I received the nurturing and appreciation I needed (but alas didn't let him know cause I figured he just should KNOW) I would have probably reciprocated in fulfilling his needs.
Oh hindsight....

Alberta,<p>I realised when i posted that I would look like an ape expecting wife to cope with everything and put out for me. <p>Let me humbly say that I was the perfect husband and father to our four children for the first 3 or 4 years of their lives. <p>My wife barely missed a nights sleep (maybe 6 in 4 kids) and has a cat nap every afternoon due to my insistence and support. I protected and provided for her through this difficult time and understood and accepted her frigidity. Even when she asked me to go pay for it I refused to do so.<p>Isnt it funny. I am now paying dearly.

ausinfidel, who appointed you gaurdian of marriages? And why do you think you have the power to make or break marriages? Not to mention that it might just be in the ow marriage best interest to get this stuff out so the resultant turmoil can clear out the emotional debris of her marriage. Whether it ends or is restored is not in your hands, and contrary to some who said your affair would be the "destroying cause" that is not true either. Nothing can destroy a marriage except for the desire of the participants (one or both) to end it. Both of your marriages ended anyways when you chose to have an A. They no longer exist, it is just the bs doesn't realize you ended it. How can you possibly justify keeping such information secret forever from someone, you are essentially enslaving them to you using the secret to do so...if they will leave you...tough, not your choice. If the ow marriage ends and you feel guilty...tough, not your choice. How would you feel if your w ran about having affairs and didn't tell you (for your own good of course)? Ya know, at first you can sorta excuse someone for what you are thinking, it is a self-serving, but understandable rationalization....but if you stick with it, you are a really despicable human being (on this issue, the witholding of critical information from someone), and really shouldn't be married to anyone. You have no choice, this is not your decision to make, you have no right to this secret.<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

[QUOTE]And why do you think you have the power to make or break marriages? }<p>isnt that the very problem.... we all have the power, I just exercised it! Now I am trying to deal with it.

you mistake cause and effect, you have no such power and have not exercised it. Everyones life is the sum total of their genetics, their nurturing, and their experiences. Your interactions with wife and ow affect both them and yourself, and thereby ripple through many lives because they are who they are (and same for you), you assume that means you have power which presupposes you can know the outcome of your actions. Since you obviously have no way of knowing, it is not power it is consequences. Your assumption of power leads you to conclude you should do certain things, that is the nature of megalomania, and the rationalization that drives it. Your dilemma is simple ausinfidel, do you pursue what you percieve to be in your best intetests (not having to deal with the guilt you percieve in being the cause of a marital breakdown), or do you act in the best interest of your wife and ow. You might argue that you are doing that, but then you have to explain why your assessment not to tell is more likely correct than the accepted knowledge of the folks who are expert at such things (the psychologists who study the nature of successful marriages). If you reject their expertise, without a more compelling argument, you reveal yourself for the self-serving (and having the attendant personality disorders, including using people which is sociopathic in nature) individual you must be. At best you would be a garden variety conflict avoider, rationalizing your way through life (hurting those unfortunate enough to be in your life), at worst you would be a wannabe sociopath, who always figures what is in their best interest must be in everyones best interest.... cause they are incapable of putting themselves in others shoes..... either way the damage is allready done, you did it, now you withold the means for all the people involved (your w, ow, her h, their extended families) to heal, and grow. Secrecy does not mean it never happened, it just means only you get to use the secret as you see fit. <p>I can't think of much more despicable in human relationships then to bind someone to you by a secret (your w), or to allow other people to go through life ignorant when you hold the keys to their mental health. If the ow (the best choice) does not tell her H, then you should, it is the only responsible choice you have, you caused the injury and should hold yourself accountable for it. That is not power, cause you are not choosing to act based on an outcome, you are choosing to act based on the consequences of your choices. Depending on who applies what standard, the outcome may be good or bad, but in reality no outcome is good or bad, even if both bs immediately divorce you and ow there is no way for anyone to say that is good or bad, that is why you have no power. Whether you tell or not, also becomes part of their lives, but we have a body of knowledge that says witholding vital information from people is harmful, because then they cannot make important decisions for themselves, and that makes sense to me. I guess I would prefer to live in a world where people did not conceal things (and I told, I am a ws, I didn't have to tell, I didn't want to tell, for the same reasons you are saying, but I did...can't say it was good or bad, but it feels right to do so), rather than a world where I am always wondering who is manipulating my life with secrets. How about you?<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SnL,<p>Regarding keeping secrets from your spouse and/or lying to your spouse thus not allowing them to make decisions for themselves ... I agree with you whole heartedly.<p>This issue was a huge source of contention in my marriage. And I did my best to explain it to my H. He never got it. He used lies, half-truths and omission of the truth. He'd say the truth would hurt me too much. I'd say "then whatever you're doing that would hurt me so much, you probably shouldn't be doing".<p>But what I believe were his real reasons were he was protecting "himself", not me. A real conflict avoider. I always thought it so interesting that someone that disliked conflict so much would do things that would ultimately cause the worse conflicts imaginable. And in addition, the women he picked to have A's with have very aggressive and in-your-face tendencies, wonder what *their* conflicts must be like. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jo<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

ausinfidel,<p>Geez, it's easy to see why you feel attacked and flamed here!! Even many who preface their remarks with "just trying to help" or "just trying to tell it like it is" or "just trying to follow MB principals" are really riding that fine line between frankness and pure meanness. I'm sorry for that.<p> I, too, am a WS and I can understand your point of view. Despite what everyone else is telling you here (and there is indeed merit to some of their points) I am not a believer that coming clean is ALWAYS the best thing to do. I might go so far as to say OFTEN it is the best way, but by no means always. It depends on the couple, and every couple has a different dynamic.<p>In my own case, my H discovered my A, so it's a moot point for me. But, surprisingly, there are some spouses, who, even when given the choice, would rather NOT know. There are some spouses who would see it as a selfish unburdening of your own guilt at the expense of their feelings, which does nothing to bring the two of you closer together or mend marital problems.<p>I know of at least one couple in which this has rung true. In this instance, the H had an affair that lasted only a few months, and nearly a year after it was over, the guilt ate at him and he confessed. His wife was devastated, and expressed to him angrily,"If it's over, and you didn't love her, and you're not leaving me, why did you bother to tell me???"<p>In fact, I've read several books on affairs since my own marital volcano erupted, and coming clean is not universally recommended by every psychologist/counselor/ author. Many regard it as a personal decision.<p>Alright, now once again (to avoid the flamers), I ADMIT THAT THIS IS NOT MB POLICY!!! I understand the policy of "radical honesty" as applied to marriage, but I still believe that every situation is different, and a tweaking of MB doctrine may be necessary in some cases, as evidenced by many other couples here.<p>Good luck to you in making the best decisions, and in restoring your marriage. Consider all your options--even the unpopular ones!<p>Calla

Calla30, thanks for throwing a bit of balance into the process.<p>Sad_n_lonely is obviously committed to one school of thought and I respect that. I just can't help but consider both options before I decide what avenue I will take.<p>Remember, I am the one who has decided to refocus on my marriage. I have not been caught out, dumped or rejected. I looked for reasons to get out of the relationship that I greatly valued but had the potential to cause a great deal of pain. I am afraid I may have hurt a good friend in the process and having had the shoe on both feet, am not sure if telling is the best option.<p>I hear the impassioned plea that the secret is something that can be used to empower the holder. How the hell is that possible? As someone who has held such a secret, I can tell you I dont feel empowered.<p>I read something saying dont do anything that you may regret in 10 years time. (wrt leaving family for ow etc) I think that may also apply to saying something.<p>I know of many (too many) men and women who have had One Night Flings, realised it was not all it appeared to be from the outset and became devoted to their family for the experience having said nothing.<p>What power does that give them? I think nothing. If the A was discreet the chances of the BS finding out would be almost non existant and life goes on their spouse enjoying the new levels of interest and deposits into their love banks. <p>After all wouldnt the MB principle support the notion of not making a withdrawal for the sake of it?<p>I am not looking for excuses, just balanced understanding and rational thoughts.

Aus<p>I am a BS and I discovered the A on my own. I don't think that I would've wanted him to tell me. But I did find out and I was devastated beyond belief. I had stopped focusing my attention on H. Niether one of us were putting any effort into the marriage. Our lives had become so predictable.<p>I am grateful that I did find our the A. It helped me to open my eyes and realize that I needed to water our garden, because we were letting it die. We don't take our relationship for granted anymore. We realize the importance of making time for us.<p>If you choose not to tell your wife, do you think that guilt may eventually take over your relationship, with time? Do you think that your wife had any idea how serious you were about what you wanted?

wife knew i was serious even suggesting in all seriousness that i go out and pay.. I am a tight wad so that was out of the q.<p>I decided to end the A so in your case isnt the same achieved.

Aus,<p>I have a question; what do you mean "go out and pay?" I think I catch your drift, but I'm a little unsure. Thanks.<p>I agree on a limited basis with a couple of the latest replies in that EACH relationship has varying levels of honesty. The only fear that I have for you is that it'll set a trend of dishonesty that will start you down separate paths.<p>Possibly, if you can hold this ONE secret, but be radically honest in everything else, maybe, just maybe that >MIGHT< be ok. I'm very torn on that point, but I do acknowledge the possiblibity.<p>K

aus,<p>I am a WS...my H found out on his own (he found a card the OM had given me). He found out 1 month after I had ended the EA. I wanted to tell him myself, but I was still trying to come to terms with everything that had just happened. <p>We are going through a tough time right now to say the least. Obviously, he is suspicious of my every move and thinks I am lying about everything. I can't really say where our M will go, but honestly, I am glad that he knows. I just don't want to lie to him anymore. He did not deserve any of this...<p>Of course, I wish I could have avoided all of the unpleasant questioning and anger from my H, but honestly, I deserve it. An A is the worst thing we can do to the person we vowed to love, honor, cherish and be faithful to.<p>Just my thoughts.

Aus -- its about fairness.<p>You are making a decision for your wife, without giving her the benefit of knowledge.<p>My H had an affair many years ago, never told me, and I never discovered it. He recently told me about it.<p>I am furious with him about the unfairness of it. I had the RIGHT to know. I had the RIGHT to make the decision for myself on whether or not to proceed with our relationship. That was not for HIM to decide on his own. The fact is, by hiding it from me for all those years it negates our relationship entirely. It was NEVER what I thought it was. It has shifted my entire belief system. Its like an earthquake to my foundation.<p>And for him to live with the guilt for all those years was no picnic either.<p>So no -- you may NOT make the decision for HER. Its NOT enough that you realize it was a mistake and want to move on. You have to go back and repair it entirely. Otherwise you are building on a bad foundation. You'll never really have the relationship that you think you have.

Aus,
I too am a WS. My H found out about my A on his own. It was the most devastating thing that could have possibly happened to us. But I am glad that he did find out. I think that I may have even set myself up to be found out. I didn't realize that I could tell him. I did not know about this website and was going to another website where the people encouraged you to not tell. So I was in a great deal of emotional turmoil. And I needed to come clean but didn't know how.<p>That, however, is not the end to my story. Yes, my H knew about the affair but there were some things that I was not telling him. And for about a month I tried to rationalize why I should not tell him. But I knew that deep down in my heart, we could not rebuild unless I came totally clean. I knew that I could not forgive myself either. I knew that it would always be between us and that it would eventually eat away at our marriage and our soul. So I came here and got the same advice that you did. And that was all it took for me to tell my H everything. And you know what? It was the best thing that I ever did. Yes, it hurt, and it hurt bad. It hurt both of us. And we took a step backwards. But it is behind us now and we are moving forward toward rebuilding. I know that radical honesty is a MB concept. But to me it is just common sense. My H and I have always been totally honest with each other and this was the first secret that I ever kept from him. And to actually think that I thought that I could not tell him was eating me alive. <p>I can't tell you what to do. But I know what it is like to keep a secret. And to think that you can keep a secret and actually think that you can rebuild your marriage is not being true to yourself. My H actually told me that he was thankful that I did tell him. Now we have no secrets! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care!
1stepatatime

I need to add one more thing. When my H found out on his own. The one thing that he told me was that he wished I would have told him. Just food for thought.

i am in a similar spot, although my A is not officially ended. If it does end I am not telling w. i have told my shrink and she says not to tell if i plan to stay. to tell if i plan to leave. different advice for different people. at the end of the day we have ourselves and our own happiness. if we all had the answers like many of the people here seem to, we wouldn't be on a web site, we would be having fun with our spouse. also, most of the people blasting you are divorced, so if staying married is the definition of success 9which i am not sure that it is) then they all failed. again, god has given us each a life to lead and we need to find our own way. regarding the Harley approach, it sure makes sense to me, but again, it is just one approach - like there are many religions - you have got to find out what makes sense for you - and sometimes mistakes are made - do you want to **** up other people's lives based on your mistake? Get on with it - give your wife all the love you can, use the no contact policy and see what happens - don't unload your guilt on her and expect her to bear it too. of course, who am i - I am in the fog of a wonderful marriage and A at the same time - remember being 17 and the excitement of two-timing - it was allowed back then, I wish i was given a lot more information about marriage before i did it. It is tooo easy to get married, too hard to get out. Who said one mate for life? It's kinda like one job for life - yick!

Ok, let me ask you one very simple question. How can your wife decide whether she wants to be married to you, if she doesn't know you are capable of cheating?<p>If you do not tell her, aren't you taking away her right to decide her own life? Isn't that the most blatantly aggressive thing one human being can do to another?<p>That is this reason for radical honesty. To mkae sure each of us has COMPLETE information about our spouse so we can decide ourselves we want to be married to them. You disagree with this? Then tell your wife you do not believe in being honest about everything you do/think/feel, and ask her if it is ok with her for you to decide what she should and should not know about you. If she says that is ok, you are home free. <p>There is no 2 schools of thought, there is just honesty, and self-service (no matter the supposed good intentions of those who suggest secrecy is a good thing). The only reason you won't tell is it may incur consequences YOU don't like. If you knew telling would improve your (and ow) marriage you would tell....if you knew it would end one or both marriages you would not tell........ why? Cause that is what YOU want, correct?<p>Rationalize all you want, as long as you remain a liar (by ommission) you are untrustworthy and do not deserve to be married to anyone....unfortunately your wife is stuck with you, not knowing she is married to a liar, unless she is astute enough to figure it out herself.<p>As for the psychological fallout of keeping important secrets.... you may think you are exempt , but unless you are not human you will pay a price, as will your wife, the ow, and her H. And if you believe in God, it is not affairs that satan wants to tempt people too, those can be fixed one way or another in the light of truth.....it is the secret he is seeks, the lifetime destruction of relationships cause of the secrets the liar carries. Sure you may remain married, but it will never be the deep bond it could be, cause secrets do not allow that, everyday you look at her for the rest of your life the lie will be between you, that is what satan seeks.<p>Ya know ausinfidel, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you are truly indecisive and needed peer review for what is obviously a choice fraught with rationalization. Now you know why you tell, you know the inescapable psychological repercussions of not telling, you can never claim(unless you lie) to have been confused about this, because if you don't tell it will now be a deliberate act. I would like to know what you do, but cause people come and go, I may never know....but I think not telling (after being exposed to this kind of discussion) says an awful lot about someone, none of it good. People who do not tell are either conflict avoiders of major proportions (a serious problem in itself), or they have sociopathic tendencies, and are only going to do what is good for them (be it telling or not telling).....the fact that you focus on you so much is disturbing, what you think, you want, you have said little about whether you think your w, or the owh would want to know......I wonder why that is.<p>Bottom line for you (or anyone) including the latest 2 timer is no one has a right to deprive another human being of the information they need to make decisions about their life. Lexxy said it best, any marriage with this lie in it, is no marriage at all. As far as the shrink you mentioned, get another, obviously has no concept that devcieveing people into spending their life with you is not ok.

Being a proponent for disclosing the A to the BS at all costs, I'm going to throw this into the mix. <p>Flame Retardent Flack Jacket Enabled ... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Knowing that it's possible HIV+ may not be detected within an individual for 10 years or >, I would say that your BS has a right to know for their own health's sake. It would be criminal to expose them to such a disease and not tell them. Then 10 years later they discover they have AIDS.<p>To me this isn't the paramount reason you need to tell them, but it is a very compelling factor.<p>Jo<p>[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Oh YES.Yes...I, as the BS, have the RIGHT to decide if I want to live MY life with an infidel. I always said, for 27 yrs, that an A would mean immediate divorce. But it didn't...we are together,after the worst time possible.

We are on the road to communication like never before. We had a pretty good M before but it is gonna be better now. I am not all the way back,yet, but my H knows HE put me here. AND so do I.
Problems in the m? Sure...but NO EXCUSE for what he did!!!If he was unhappy, he should have said so and gotten OUT.He didn't want OUT,just wanted HIS way without getting caught.I have some **** -eyed respect for him for confessing,there was no guarantee that I would find out. The OW said she would tell, but he may have been able to keep her at bay. But it would have meant MORE lies, and he couldn't live with himself, as a liar. <p>I am not nor will I ever be grateful that he had a A. BUT I am glad we are where we are today,reality based. AND I decided on my own terms to accept him back...just like HE decided to wreck our lives with an A.

happinesstoo,<p>I must agree, thank you and disagree with one aspect however commend you for being here. I have made the move to end the A. It is hell. But I am glad I made the move because I know how good life is at home and now wife filling the void she left open, I have no reason to stray.<p>With regard to the one partner for life, they say it was a value of biblical proportions. Great, we only lived on average for about 30 odd years then. I know it would be easy to be faithful for that long. Furthermore one partner would be killed fighting the bear for a berry or in childbirth at an even earlier age.<p>Being with the one person for life is easy if it is the right person and both parties fill eachothers EN's but if and when that doesnt happen, the inevitable does. <p>I know my wife is the right one and now she is getting past her issues, I am mine and our life will go on.