Most of the day was spent on the phone with my H yelling over why he can't try...yes, I was angry, yes, I knew I was wrong. It was just the kind of day it was. Strange, you feel closer to them despite the angry outbursts, anyone know what I mean? <p>Anyway, I took a drive by myself tonight while my H spent time with our D. When I came back, he looked at me, and wanted to become intimate. I refused. I told him that I would consent only when he TRULY WANTED ME. Anyway, he remained pretty persistent but I held my ground. My D wanted to have a family read night in our bed so we all climbed into bed. He then said, "I know I will regret this one day. Our love was very special but right now, I cannot do something that is not in my heart. I'm sorry."<p>Somehow, I felt a tiny bit of hope. What do you think?

HI T,
Gonna tell you what my first reaction was to your post without biting my "tongue?" Here goes...<p>I think he did the bedtime read solely for your daughter. He said your love "was special" past tense... I don't think I would read more into it than exactly what he said, even if he seemed particularly hot for your bod. I wouldn't allow the sex part to override the words that came out of his mouth. What came out of his mouth is speaking louder to me than his coming on to you. I'M SO GLAD YOU TURNED HIM DOWN!<p>Imagine if you went for it, then he turns around and returns to OW and ignored you for days and days or comes out with the I love you but not in love with you after he despitefully used your body for his own selfish desires... UGH! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

p.s. He can't try because it's not in his heart--that was the answer to your question from earlier in the day!!!!!!!!! It came after the fact that he tried to get some! It infuriates me, but I know you love him so you may not be able to see through it. I'm only on the outside looking in and I'm sure there is more to the story, but just telling you what I see from the outside looking in, my friend. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Okay so wait a minute, wait a minute... Let me see if I got this straight...<p>You're good enough to screw, but not good enough for him to try to make things work between you?<p>Is that what I just read????????<p>oooooo, I'm so glad you refused his advances. I hope you stay strong because something tells me it won't be the last time you will have to protect yourself from further rejection.

Bin,<p>I don't read it that way - for what it's worth my 2cents are based on the fact that for many men, feelings of affection and wanting sex are very close and consequently, very often, men confuse them. <p>Could it be that his wanting sex is only his way of trying to be affectionate? The rejection confirms his belief, or he's willing to slip back into believing (the effect of the slap), that he's not in love with Terrified or his love isn't welcome.<p>Terrified,<p>I'm of the opinion that your H might have been reaching out to you. Ok, he did it in a way that was unacceptable to you (at this time) and his own feelings may have him confused.<p>What worked for me was to discuss my feelings at that moment with my wife. Then, I realised that I needed to separate the feelings of affection and the feelings of wanting sex. Once I could do this, I was able to hug affectionately and not get, well, you know [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>- Freddy<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

Yes Freddy,
You and the men you speak of are DEFINITELY confused if you think sex and affection are wrapped in the same ball of wax. I'm so glad that you have separated out the two. Terrified knows this too and that is why she turned his butt down...

• Having sex is NOT the way to show affection if there is a risk of you leaving for another woman.
• Having sex is NOT the way to show affection if you are confused about the relationship and whether or not your heart is into wanting to make it work.
• Having sex is NOT the way to show affection if you are married to me and not even willing to live together so we can sort out our problems together.

Affection is a hug, a kiss, a touch, a squeeze, a pat, a card, an "I LOVE YOU," a phone call to say how much I mean to you, a nicety, a meaningful gift for no reason, a poem, a "warm fuzzy," some type of small gesture to show you're thinking of me, holding hands, helping me with my coat. NONE of which have to do with being naked in a bed with a [censored]... You can have sex without affection (think rape), and you can have affection without sex (think of kissing your grandmother on the cheek).<p>Freddy, isn't your top EN affection? So I know I'm preaching to the choir!<p>I don't know, maybe I'M the one in a fog on this... Terrified, what sayest thou???<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Bin, you're too much [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You can have sex without affection (think rape), <hr></blockquote><p>what an awful thought<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>you can have affection without sex (think of kissing your grandmother on the cheek). <hr></blockquote><p>now, I'm supposed to be a negrophiliac, thanks but also a big no [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Affection is a hug, a kiss, a touch, a squeeze, a pat, a card, an "I LOVE YOU," a phone call to say how much I mean to you, a nicety, a meaningful gift for no reason, a poem, a "warm fuzzy," some type of small gesture to show you're thinking of me, holding hands, helping me with my coat. <hr></blockquote><p>Exactly. I'm lucky, I was able to put this all in perspective at a time when I was emotionally drained. Just maybe, Terrifieds H needs some help here. A little friendly guidance, so to speak.<p>Just a thought...probably the only one I'll be blessed with today [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>- Freddy

Hi Freddy,
I'm feelin' ya on this re: Terrified's husband, but I don't think he will come to MB for any gentle guidance from MBers... The last I remember about her story was that he didn't need any counseling... I might be foggy on that too, but that's what I seem to recall...<p>Terrified is trying to be strong and protect her feelings and I'm definitely in agreement with that. And yes, I'm taking sides... sorry, but I gonna support the BS/MBer on this thread... She's in Plan B and trying to protect her feelings of love that remain. I don't think having sex with the WS ever fell into the category of Plan B!

Hi Bin,<p>Now you KNOW I'm with YOU on this, don't ya [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but just so there's no misunderstandings here and to be very clear:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't think having sex with the WS ever fell into the category of Plan B! <hr></blockquote><p>I agree totally. I wasn't suggesting that Terrified should have sex with him either. Just offering a different interpretation.<p>However, there's something I don't understand: If Terrified is in Plan B - why is she arguing with him on the phone? And if she's doing a good plan A, why is she shouting anyway? And if she's in a Plan B why is her H even in her house? <p>Terrified, sorry, I'm not trying to talk over you, these questions should be directed at you.<p>Just some hopefully objective thoughts...<p>- Freddy<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>Yes Freddy,<p>[/list]Affection is a hug, a kiss, a touch, a squeeze, a pat, a card, an "I LOVE YOU," a phone call to say how much I mean to you, a nicety, a meaningful gift for no reason, a poem, a "warm fuzzy," some type of small gesture to show you're thinking of me, holding hands, helping me with my coat. NONE of which have to do with being naked in a bed with a [censored]... You can have sex without affection (think rape), and you can have affection without sex (think of kissing your grandmother on the cheek).<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>BINthereDUNthat,
Hey! I got back a couple emails I sent to you as undiverable ?? -- if you want to email me I can reply.<p>Terri -
Now about this sex / affection thing.
Being a horny kind of guy myself, before my W's most recent A's I would have been for the sex thing all the way, thinking that there might be some affection tied into it, at last some and that it would at least be a start in the right direction. Now with lot's of reading about sex addiction (and I'm not accusing anyone here with that ailment [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , I have gained some different perspectives about sex -- hopefully, more healthy perspectives. This should be basic, but perhaps not.
I can very much enjoy wild sex & I do a lot with my DW, but I know it is not always affection, in fact in my case that is a rare exception. Our brains can many times get wired into thinking that sex is love -- intellectually we know the difference, but I believe emotionally we get confused & may even be in denial about the truth here. For example, my DW has recently become more affectionate in a sense, with more kissing during our sex & in greeting & parting -- but it is still not what BIBthereDunnTHAT described above --
I am starving for true affection & in the midst of esctasy with sex, I'll sometimes ask if she loves me & she has real difficulty with that -- she knows I would love to hear those words and she is a really good actor, but she just can't say the words .... She'll go on about how "good" it feels & how she loves my pennis! But make no mistake, this is not affection -- this is lust -- IMHO, it is important to understand the difference! <p>I can recall what I think is a good example. Last year (what I now know was during my W's A's), her & I were having a battle over whether she should take ski lessons (by herself & 2 hours away) and I put my foot down & said no & I was sticking to it, which is unusal for me. In protest She had slept in guest bedroom a couple nights, then she comes into our bedroom one morning & we have sex. Immediately afterwards, she says "This does not mean I don't still have some issues with you!" and it was like we were back into our little battle. This is what I would describe as a physical, chemical release or "Fix" if you will -- not an act of love!<p>Cards, notes, a call to say something other than what do you want to do for dinner ... -- I would think some of this would be obvious & I don't think I should tell her that these things would be good -- but yes, Terri, you have a good sense for his motives & I too agree that you made the right choice to not comply with his advances -- with what has happened, to me, it is way too confusing to distinguish what is a gesture of love and affection compared to a raw physical reaction.
Having said all of that, how do we really know?<p>In my W's case for example, she may not actually have the capacity at this time to know how to genuinely show affection & she is trying to do what she thinks is the way. You know we form these ways of thinking & behaiving from childhood & it is sometimes extremely difficult to change a mindset or pattern or way of thinking & dealing with things.
It does sound like your H may be coming around, but like I have been saying, if I were you I would definatley let him dangle -- you have opportunity to re-shape some things & to give in too soon I think is dangerous, because he then takes over the relationship & you end up being a doormat. The Dobson book does a good job of describing some of these dynamtics -- may not work for you though --no guarantees in life you know.
Did you guys have an active sex life before -- did he normally get real amorous after three days or was it more like three weeks? Is it time for that sexual rountine he's used to.
We all like to think we could have this great romantic loving, kind of relationship -- perhaps that is not going to happen right away & you need to start with where you are now & build from there. Who can say for sure what is the right thing for you to do.
I say, if he wants your attention (sex/and or hopefully love??) he needs to do a lot to "earn it" --
This is easy for us, we're not you -- you have to do what you feel is right for you!
Love & Prayers to ya!
HH

Terrified is MIA on this thread??? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, I guess we will just have to speculate right along with her. You're right Freddy, I correct what I said--she was sort of forced into a separation because WS moved out against her wishes to try to make things work... I might be wrong, but that's what I remember... plus they have a young daughter to raise so they must remain in contact.<p>HH try my home addy: fwoodson001@netzero.net sometimes the West@xxx.com doesn't work. I'm sorry if you typed a big old long thing and it got deleted as you described to me your typing skills before. I appreciate you!<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

Terr --<p>This post kinda confused me -- and so do the responses. I don't really think you were questioning about whether or not you were right to refuse sex. I think you're comfortable with your decision.<p>Your question and the title seem to have more to do with analyzing your husbands words and actions.
And I'd really recommend that you avoid doing that. He's going to take you on a ride and you need to resist it. One day he says something that gives you hope, the next day he says something that takes it away. And everyday you're here asking all of us to jump on the ride with you. <p>Get back to the basics of Plan A. What are the changes you're going to make? What needs of his are you going to fill and how are you going to do it? <p>Instead of coming here everyday to get comments on what he said last nite -- tell us what YOU did using MB principals. Turn us into your cheerleaders for Plan A!<p>Come on T -- I think you can do this! Get focused!

Thanks to all of you for your very insightful and interesting replies. You're all right in executing warnings about the pitfalls about falling into traps along the way. I just haven't heard him say anything even close to loving in so long. I guess I fear even sharing it since I know it's not permanent.<p>L2, How can I meet his needs when his important one right now is SF? Second is affection which is another one he's not interested in getting from me. BTW, good to hear from you.

L2,
Perhaps none of my business, but I was curious if you are related to the Lexxxy I used to see here. Your reply sounded like you could be twin sister.
If you are the same person, I just wanted to say hello -- I don't remember your story exactly, but I remeber you had some interesting points -- Usually very direct, which can be refreshing & stimulating at times!
Terri,
I had another thought -- about the plan A thing & what I was promoting with the let him dangle bit -- I still agree with the time out thing, but I know with your D, it may be difficult not to have contact -- I think he may actually want you back -- , but don't give in & the plan A thing is best advice -- be sure you look your best -- going out when he comes over is great idea!! -- throw on some nice cloths (just slightly seductive would be good!) & some perfume & be very evasive about where you are going -- Do not stop at a bar though -- this is just for show!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Later!!
HH [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

HH, I was thinking of the no-contact thing myself before I read your response. I had thought to propose a three-week no contact period where I would develop schedule (to include visitation of D) and just make sure I was out of the house when he was around. He's so vulnerable right now that I think distance will probably work. <p>Hugs to you and thanks,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terrified:
<strong>HH, I was thinking of the no-contact thing myself before I read your response. Hugs to you and thanks,</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Terri,
Sometimes we can over analise these things, but from what I understand, I believe it might make sense -- Putting something in writng is good. It takes the emotions out of it & it can be more precise & firm -- Plan B letter examples I'm sure can be found here. Dobson's book has examples.
I'm sure you know that it is important the message is non-judgemental -- just the facts as you see them -- opportunity to outline some grievances of sorts, maybe ... ? IMHO, you need to be careful it does not come off as "punishment" against him.
Don't rush into it -- write out letter & then let it rest over night, then review it -- I think in Dobson's book he says after writing letter you may decide not to use it, but writing it out helps to clarify your thoughts & makes it crisp and to the point.
A part of this, if I recall correctly, is that you continue a plan A kind of attitude -- for example, you may state that you love him, & would like to work things out, but based on how you understand the facts as they are presented to you (his actions & expressed feeling, ect.), you simply cannot continue the relationship on same basis. Important we establish clear understanding ... ect. -- I'm not real fresh on this right now, but you get the idea.
I was hoping you might get the book & have time to study it before this letter -- On the other hand, he has said pleanty that he did not really mean and in the course of dispute & recovery or what ever, lots of things are said & forgotten & re-defined. So, don't be overly concerned that this letter or dialoge has to be perfect!
I think it sounds like you are being really strong & I am very proud of you & the way you are coping!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
The next time he comes over for visitation & you are leaving ... I don't know if wore high heels, if that would be a little over the top ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
As a precaution, be prepared for some setbacks - these things do not always work out just like we plan -- he is probablly thinking of what strategy he wants to imploy to upset you, to get his way or win you back. Be prepared for any & all so you perhaps will not be caught off guard & you can mantain your composure. You're doing good though!
Love & prayers to ya,
HH

She knows where her WS is coming from, THAT's why she refused his advances. Thumbs up, Terrified! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm praying you will be strong when the next round comes... It's for your good and his... AND your daughter's. She needs a strong mom and a happy mom. You deserve to be happy and not be miserable from being used... Good luck.

Hi Terrified:<p>Well, first thing...let me say I think you were certainly right to refuse him sex under the circumstances. He has stated that he feels the marriage is over and is not willing to work on it and the OW is certainly no secret...so what basis does he have to expect you would desire to have sex with him. Now it's true that men can sometimes see sex as "sex and nothing else" you need to express to him that that is not how you feel.<p>It bothers me however, that like Lexxy said, you are continuing to let him take you on these everyday rollercoaster dips. Hon, he made this choice to get the apartment...yet, he continues to have no real consequences of same....he's spending most nights at your house...things apparently going on as usual. This includes the continuing discussions of relationship, etc. You are now at the point that further discussions with him are counterproductive to you and the relationship. Perhaps you need to pull back and let go (al la Dobson)....set up some breathing room for you....let him stew in his decision...let him have the alone time he wanted. I think this will have more effect on him then all the discussions with him you could ever have....at least right now...and it would also give you the time between visits to gather your resolve and be more able to have productive time with him. The time you're spending with him now is very unproductive.<p>As for the little "I know I will regret this some day......" I think that was merely an offhanded way of his dealing with his feeling since you rejected him....but I think there might have been some truth in it...even for him. Fog...Fog...Fog.<p>Take back your life Terrified...your self respect is suffering through all this...unnecessarily...realize that you cannot persuade, lecture, rationalize, beg or shame your WS into doing what you want and need...it's up to him but you can make choices that make his decision easier...and MB shows you how. <p>Faye