Hi everyone, sorry for the length of this post&#8230; I&#8217;ve been evaluating what I&#8217;ve learned from this experience of late and had the urge to set it all down in writing. A &#8220;white paper&#8221; on my thoughts and ideas if you please. I&#8217;m not sure all of this meets the MB criteria but I tend to take what will work for me and build a plan of attack. What can I say, I&#8217;m a fixer and planner by nature&#8230; Hopefully this will fuel someone else&#8217;s musings. Any constructive/destructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. J <p>The core concepts as discovered, analyzed, intellectualized and (hopefully) internalized by&#8230; me. J In my reading and soul searching of the past several months, I have made some profound discoveries about life, relationships and love. I believe that it&#8217;s a major trauma in our primary relationship (spouse, lover, etc.) that drives most people to truly examine their lives, perceptions, perspectives and their behaviors. It takes a significant emotional event for most of us to really delve into ourselves with the purpose of affecting change. This has certainly being the case with me! It took my wife leaving to wake me up to the mess my life had become. These musing are all driven from this perspective but I believe can be applied to our lives in general. <p>After my entire world began to fall apart, I discovered a great many shortcomings in myself. I found that I&#8217;m guilty of committing the cardinal sin of neglecting my wife and our relationship. I discovered that, in many respects, I thought I was being loving and caring; I wasn&#8217;t being these things in the manner she needed. I was displaying love in the ways I need it not the manner she does. In my shame and guilt I&#8217;ve been making real effort to become the best man, husband, friend, soul mate and partner I can be. To do less would be to deny my wife the person she deserves and myself of the person I can be. A brief note on motivations: the ideals and concepts I espouse here are in no way meant to change a person into something they are not! This isn&#8217;t about becoming who you may think your significant other (SO in the future) thinks or would like you to be; this is about becoming the best YOU you can be! At the end of the day, this is all any of us can be.<p> To be sure, we can adjust behaviors and habits that our SOs find irritating. We can learn to display our love in the manner our SO&#8217;s require to meet their needs. This isn&#8217;t changing the core person in any sense; this is showing love and consideration for the one you love. To try and force change in your core values and traits to please another is to know complete unhappiness, we can none be what we are not! In a real sense, if it&#8217;s a long-term relationship driving these thoughts, your SO must have loved the core person at one point so why the need to attempt change in your essence? Another quick note: these things aren&#8217;t easy to do by any stretch of the imagination. I believe the first step that must be taken in any real attempt to improve on one&#8217;s self is a great deal of soul searching and absolute brutal honesty. This is absolutely essential to making any real change. Realizing that we all lie to ourselves more than we could ever lie to others is a first step in seeing the issues and affecting real change in one&#8217;s own behaviors. <p>Ok, now that the preamble is finished&#8230; The three &#8220;core concepts&#8221; I believe will provide the cornerstones of a successful relationship: Have I earned your love today?; Constant maintainable change; No promises, no expectations. <p>Have I earned your love: This is the result of a question I saw in the articles section of the MB site. The question as posed was &#8220;how do I know my spouse is in love with me?&#8221; Dr. Harley&#8217;s response was, essentially, that there is really three ways to answer the question: &#8220;Does your spouse say she&#8217;s in love with you?&#8221; &#8220;Does your spouse&#8217;s actions demonstrate he/she is in love with you?&#8221; &#8220;Should your spouse be in love with you?&#8221;. The last answer struck me as been deceptive in it&#8217;s simplicity but devastatingly profound in it&#8217;s meaning. Think on that a second&#8230; Should your spouse be in love with you? What have you done to warrant them loving you? Have you earned their love? This encompasses everything that a relationship should, would and could be!! This is the core of everything. We must meet the needs of our SO in order to develop an environment where love can flourish. <p>A brutally honest answer to this question was the impetus that led me on this journey of self-discovery and improvement. In my case, prior to asking myself this, I thought my years of undiagnosed depression were the sole reason my life was falling apart. Upon seriously reflecting on this, I find that without the depression, my actions and attitudes really didn&#8217;t warrant the love I desire from her. Without intending to, I found that I have been very judgmental, argumentative, controlling and demanding over the years. In concert with the depression, this crushed my wife&#8217;s confidence, self esteem and sense of belonging. I killed any &#8220;us&#8221; she may have felt. This realization has been incredibly painful for me. The guilt I feel at the hurt I caused her is terrible. So, what to do about the situation? <p> I&#8217;ve discovered that for a relationship to flourish, constant attention has to be paid. The potential to fall into a rut and to take our partners for granted is extremely high. Disregard and neglect will kill a relationship in short order. In order to prevent this from happening, I have begun to ask myself these simple yet profound questions everyday. In the morning I ask &#8220;what will I do today to warrant her love?&#8221; in the evening, as I write in my journal, I ask &#8220;What did I do today to warrant her love?&#8221;. These questions honestly answered have been a great help in keeping me focused on what is important. Knowing that I will ask myself what I&#8217;ve done today and knowing that the answer will be brutally honest is also an incentive to strive to be all that I can. Something to remember&#8230; Although we do all that is conceivably possible to create an environment conducive to a loving relationship, we have no control over our spouses&#8217; feelings and actions. We can but set the stage and no more. <p>Constant and maintainable change: After honestly answering the question stated above, what does one do in order to honestly answer that your spouse&#8217;s love is warranted? Essentially, we need to meet the needs of our SO. Physical and emotional needs, we must discover what we have done right and what we have done wrong. We must evaluate our shortfalls and determine how best to improve upon ourselves to meet those needs. One must identify and prioritize the areas requiring self-improvement and strive to make the desired changes. Again, any changes made should be based on improving yourself as a person! This must be about becoming the person you want to be and can be. It can be very liberating once you start seeing yourself as the person you&#8217;d like to be. The boost to one&#8217;s self-esteem is incredible! I have found that, meeting the needs of my spouse doesn&#8217;t require that I go against my nature in the changes required. It does, however, require that I make a great deal of changes that will make me a better person for myself as well. This is where maintainable comes into play. By maintainable, I mean that any changes made must be changes that can be maintained for life! This is not a quick fix and back to business as usual, this is a commitment to yourself to be the best you possible. This is why it&#8217;s critical that anything you do be for yourself. If you try to implement changes to be whom you think your SO wants, those changes will not be maintainable for life if they&#8217;re counter to your core personality and traits. I&#8217;ve pondered this from an ethical perspective as well and arrived at the same conclusion. This must be change for you for several reasons. In my mind, to change against your nature in order to please another is manipulative and dishonest. . To affect change with the express purpose of pleasing your SO is a false pretense. The change can&#8217;t be maintained, as we tend to drift back to our nature, and will be seen (rightfully) as dishonest. As important as honesty; for myself, I need my spouse to love me for who I am and who I am becoming. I can only be the best me possible and hope to maintain this behavior. <p> Constant change&#8230; I believe that people are dynamic in nature. If we remain stagnant, we wither and die. A relationship is the same. Not only will the partners change and grow but also the relationship in and of itself must do the same. The only way to assure this is to constantly evaluate yourself, your relationship and find areas to improve. This philosophy has several side benefits: it requires a constant open dialog between the partners to evaluate the &#8220;state of the union&#8221; required for constant improvement and it also keeps the focus on the relationship eliminating the possibility of stagnation and neglect. It also reinforces the idea that this is a commitment to a way of life, not a quick fix. Change is indeed the only constant; to view our relationships from any other perspective is to invite disaster.<p>No promises on expectations: This concept may be a bit difficult for some to accept. Through the course of our marital problems, my wife has said several times, &#8220;no promises, no expectations&#8221; regarding our relationship. This was a hard pill to swallow being deeply and completely in love with her. It did, however, make me appreciate everything she did for me. I reflected upon this and made some realizations. <p> What is a promise and why do we make them? A promise is a commitment, in this case, the standard &#8220;love, honor and cherish&#8221;. The primary reason one would make such a commitment is love. In some respects, I believe the promise can be detrimental. The commitment can lead to a false sense of security. It can give a measure of comfort that shouldn&#8217;t exist. We neglect our relationship depending on the commitment for &#8220;protection&#8221; and the love that drove the commitment is allowed to wither. Without the love, the commitment is empty, for many people the commitment will keep them in an unhappy relationship but many people will leave the relationship leaving their spouse shouting &#8220;but you promised!&#8221;. The promise without the love that drove it is worthless. The love without the promise, however, still ensures the much more important emotional commitment. I&#8217;m not discounting the institution of marriage by any means. I enjoy being married. I&#8217;m simply saying that the commitment should be conditional. It should be based on the environment that led to the marriage being maintained. Without the false sense of security the promise offers, we are forced to evaluate our relationships and put forth the effort to nurture them. This will ensure that the emotional commitment, the real commitment in a relationship, is nurtured and strengthened. <p>No expectations&#8230; This, in concept, is a good idea but nearly impossible to purely implement. We all have expectations; there is no avoiding them. We generally expect that when we say &#8220;I love you&#8221; , the sentiment will be returned and an uncomfortable silence sets in when it isn&#8217;t. Our feelings get hurt. Why is it that we expect a response? If we say, &#8220;I love you&#8221; expecting the sentiment to be returned, doesn&#8217;t that diminish the expression of love? Doesn&#8217;t this make the expression conditional in a sense? To say &#8220;I love you&#8221; with the express intent of verbalizing your feelings to another with no thoughts of any benefit, other than what you derive from expressing your love, is a much purer and truer sentiment to me. In my current situation, I do many things with no thought of reciprocity or any expectations. I have found that it makes my small acts of love and kindness more meaningful even for myself. I derive my pleasure simply from the act of giving and in knowing that I may have pleased her in some small way. There are no hidden agendas, no ulterior motives and no expectations. I believe that she also sees this and appreciates my efforts all the more.
As I said, we all have expectations; I do expect an acknowledgement and a &#8220;thank you&#8221; often. I also know in my mind that I should expect nothing and I have been able to reduce my expectations to a bare minimum. In a very real sense that makes everything I receive as a result of my actions a gift. I find I spend much less time with hurt feelings and much more time appreciating the small things she does for me without the expectations. There is NO room for disregard or to take your SO for granted if you have very reduced expectations. Each small kindness becomes an appreciated gift and each profession of love becomes meaningful. I strive to reach the theoretical point where I have no expectations at all. It would be so very pleasant to view everything as a gift and take nothing for granted! <p>Well there it is&#8230; These are the concepts that all my hopes and dreams ride on. This is the vehicle I expect to bring us to the relationship that I believe we both desire. It can happen!!! All I have to do is focus on solidly implementing and living the ideals I espouse. That is after all the hard part. Assuming you made it this far, your thoughts would be appreciated!
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SF2G,<p>Brilliant. These are nearly the EXACT same questions that I've been struggling with over the last month.... the shortcomings in myself, the neglect of my W, the depression, trying to get (back) to my CORE BELIEFS.<p>I'm thinking of printing this off and giving it to my WS sometime (on an upswing of the coaster, maybe), but aside from small stylistic nuances, I think she'd probably believe that >>>I<<< wrote it self-servingly.<p>I'm struggling as well with the "no promises, no expectations." That truly is the most difficult part.<p>Good post, I hope everyone reads it.
Kev

Interesting, I think you pretty much have the nature of marriage right. Since you seem to be interested in the why's of all this (human bonding) maybe you could comment on a few others.<p>1. If vows as you say (and I agree) are not the basis for marriage, you essentially agree marriage is not about duty and rules, it is about feelings and fitting, and that cannot be "decided". As you noted, your w does not want to be married to you at the moment (for whatever reason).....you assess (and probably with good reason) this is related to your behaviour in the marriage (and that is not a value judgement re your worth). Now you suggest you are "changed" in appropriate ways, including attitude...great. Do you accept it is appropriate for your w (and you for that matter) to consider this a new start, much like dating a new person, and that she may not choose you anyways? Are you ok with that? Will you "love" her just as much if she leaves you, vs staying? Are you willing to "let her go" make it clear you have no objection and would support her efforts to find out how she feels about herself, even if it means with om (or nobody, just looking)? If not, I suggest this is still about you, and what you want. IMO the only real way one actually loves someone is to not bind them in any way, including not assuming you are what they need to be happy. That in fact quite possibly someone else is who they need, and may be able to nurture them better than you can. Would you assist in that if that is what she wants to explore? Or would you be angry, and avoid her, and think ill of her?<p>2. Why do you think you are the best H for your w?<p>3. Why do you think she is the best w for you?<p>Have you applied brutal honesty to #2, 3?<p>4. Do you think it is selfish for a spouse to leave a marriage cause they are not happy?<p>5. What if it is not your behaviour your w had problems with, (although that would play a role), what if it is just you, she cares about you, wishes you no ill-will, she just does not want to spend the rest of her life in an intimate relationship with you (and does not want to be on trial "explaining" why, nor wants you to "work" on anything for her).... can you accept that?<p>These are very inflammatory questions, but you asked for philosophic input (so the rest of you don't flame me plz, and you know who you are).

Kevco: Thanks for the input! Hopefully you&#8217;ll get a better response from your W than I did mine. She asked me what I had been learning from this experience and she didn&#8217;t particularly care for my musings. :shrug: In many respects, our current situations make the no promises or expectations easier. God knows I can&#8217;t afford to have either these days!!<p>SNL: Thanks for your response, I&#8217;ve read a number of your posts and I think we&#8217;re probably &#8220;tick&#8221; in a very similar manner. I have a deep need for understanding in all things and I&#8217;m very analytical. I&#8217;m not sure which drives the other honestly. J That said, naturally I&#8217;ve pondered all the questions you ask and extremely pertinent questions they are! As a rule, I disagree to a point on the fitting thing. I do think fit is important and putting this into perspective with the MB principles&#8230; I believe that where &#8220;fitting&#8221; plays a role is the ability to make deposits. While it may be theoretically true that anyone can make enough deposits to have another fall in love with them, the deposits will be much easier and take much less effort if the &#8220;banker&#8221; is attracted (fits???) to the depositor. That said, I think that (in most situations) fit isn&#8217;t an issue in marital problems. The fit was there initially or the relationship would have failed long before the &#8220;I do&#8217;s&#8221;. If the fit was once there, it most likely still is there, buried for whatever reasons. Even as people grow and change I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;s a fundamental shift in their essence without trauma (significant emotional event etc&#8230 [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] the same two core personalities, that fit initially, are there although packing a great deal of baggage. It&#8217;s much easier to rationalize that it&#8217;s just not there than face the behaviors (in both parties) and deal with the ramifications of our actions. I&#8217;ll take your questions in turn&#8230; <p>1. I&#8217;ve given this a great deal of thought. I would be overjoyed at the opportunity for a new start! I feel that our M ended (for me) the day she met her OP and consummated their EA. For her, it ended much longer ago. Right now, I&#8217;m not competing with the OM, I&#8217;m competing with the sad, angry little man she lived with for years. In that respect a fresh start would be very beneficial! Perhaps the OM could make her happy, at this point who knows, it&#8217;s still an Internet/ phone call fantasy. They would have to spend some real time together to see if it would work. I have told her many times that I love her enough that I will let her go with my blessing if she so chooses. I&#8217;ve also told her that I need her here because she wants to be here not from any obligation. Her happiness is of paramount import to me, in many respects, mine is indelibly linked to hers. I don&#8217;t know if she can be in love with the person I am becoming, in a very real sense, the length of the depression I experienced means that neither of us really know who that is. I am learning and I find I like the man I am supposed to be. I pray that she does as well. I would be lying if I said there would be a song in my heart as I helped her pack. I love her with every fiber of my being, to watch her leave will tear my heart but I will do it and I&#8217;ll force a smile if that day arrives. In many respects, it would be better if she did go and explore. I need her to be as certain of her reasons for staying as I am my own.<p>
2. I imagine there are others out there that could be as good a partner to my W as I. Perhaps its just arrogance, but I feel she&#8217;d be hard pressed to find someone who could do better. I love her completely; I&#8217;ve seen so many relationships and seen a good cross-section of the potential competition. I also know how much she loves me. Her actions speak volumes about her love for me. I would honestly leave her if I thought that there was a real danger of me causing her the same type of pain I have in the past. I&#8217;m not sure I could live with the guilt of doing it again quite frankly. <p>3. She very well may not be. I do know she is the most amazing woman I know. I&#8217;ve also seen a great deal of her potential competition. I&#8217;ve carefully dissected my motives for staying and going through this pain. What I do know (and the reason I stay) is that I love her and I&#8217;m deathly afraid that if our relationship ends, I&#8217;ll spend the rest of my days with a hole in my soul where she used to live. I&#8217;ve thought extensively of life after her, it&#8217;s not pretty. We&#8217;ve been together more than half our lives, I can&#8217;t recall the last time I had a coherent thought she wasn&#8217;t an integral part of. I&#8217;m not sure where she starts and I end. No, it&#8217;s not merely familiarity of comfort. It&#8217;s a deep abiding love.<p>4. No I don&#8217;t, in many respects, the opposite could be true. Case in point&#8230; My best friend is going through a D now. His W out of the blue told him she&#8217;d not loved him or been happy for 16 years and was leaving him. She had stayed for logistical reasons. That selfishness deprived them both for 16 years of the potential for true happiness. How can one partner truly be happy if the other isn&#8217;t? The other side of that coin would be in the circumstances. To walk out without evaluating the reasons for the unhappiness or attempting to rectify the situation could be seen as very selfish.<p>5. I believe #1 covers this well.<p>Thanks for your input! I appreciate your thoughts. <p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]