Peppermint posted this over In Recovery and I thought it was very interesting! This is Dr James Dobson from Focus on the Family:<p>QUESTION: My husband, Joe, tell me he feels suffocated in our marriage and wants out. What should I do? How should I change my relationship with him?<p>DR.DODSON&#8217;S ANSWER: Though I realize it may be the most difficult thing you&#8217;ve ever done, the only promising option at this point is to open the cage door and set Joe free! Gather every ounce of courage and self-respect you can muster and have a serious talk with him along the following lines:<p>&#8220;Joe, I&#8217;ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave. My love for you is so deep that I just couldn&#8217;t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a terrible shock to see our relationship begin to unravel.
Nevertheless, I have been doing some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I&#8217;m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I didn&#8217;t blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me.
So, if you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. This entire experience has been painful, but I&#8217;m going to make it. You and I had some wonderful times together, Joe. You were my first real love, and I&#8217;ll never forget the memories that we shared.&#8221;<p>Slowly, unbelievably, Joe will see the cage door start to rise. He has felt bound to you hand and foot for years, and now you&#8217;ve set him free! <p>&#8220;But there must be a catch,&#8221; he&#8217;s likely to think. &#8220;It&#8217;s too good to be true. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she&#8217;ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She&#8217;s really weak, you know, and she&#8217;ll crack under pressure.&#8221;<p>It is my strongest recommendation that you prove that your husband is wrong in this expectation. Joe may test your resolve in the next few months by showing hostility, being aloof, or by flirting with other women. He&#8217;ll be watching during this time for signs of weakness or panic. If you continue to show self-confidence, you will convince him that he is actually free.<p>WHAT&#8217;S NEXT?<p>Three things typically happen when you convey that understanding:
(1) The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and the relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
(2) As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After having wondered for weeks or months, &#8220;How can I get out of this mess?&#8221; he now asks, &#8220;Do I really want to go?&#8221;
(3) The third change occurs not in the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, she feels better &#8211; somehow more in control of the situation. The person begins to respect herself and receives small evidences of respect in return.<p>Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that she has a definite course of action to follow.<p>Does this approach always work? Of course not. Nothing always works in human relationships. Some people will re-examine the decision to leave and decide to return. Others will keep on going. Even if it&#8217;s too late to reconnect with Joe, you&#8217;ll have your self-confidence back and will be able to go on without him.<p>*********************************************<p>Has anyone tried this? What do you think? Feedback and discussion welcome!<p>Peppermint

This (IMO) is exactly how one should deal with this life circumstance.

Thanks Dana!<p>But I gotta say this cracked me up.<p>My H wanted to leave soooo BAD! I didn't want him to and told him so, but as the A continued and I started to LB, I finally said "You can Leave" .... he looked me in the eyes and said "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU"<p>I couldn't believe my ears! "You don't believe me????"<p>Dr. Dodson is right on the money. <p>Jo<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

"Freeing" them is really just an extension of the reality that NO ONE can end the affair except the participants. Anything the BS does to try to separate the affairees results in the opposite effect. <p>In effect, Dr. Dobson's words are just an extension of Plan A: work on yourself and leave thje aliens to their own devices. <p>Frank Pittman also has a variation on this theme: just find something to occupy yourself while the affair runs its course.

OMG...I'm about to agree with SNL...will wonders never cease.<p>Well, Melody, I don't know if this works but it's about the only thing I hadn't tried and gotten limited results at...so a couple of months ago I sincerely decided to give it a try. Results...I think it's really too soon to tell...but I have experienced the anger and the tests of my resolve....almost as if up til now he had the upper hand and didn't like what he was getting now. I guess it probably is a heady experience to have some one languishing over you. <p>I stopped being there for him...stopped going out of my way to talk to him...any interaction we have has to be initiated by him...at first it was hard because the only way I could get myself to do it was to be short and curt with him...and I knew that didn't feel right for me...so after a while I just was nice but non-commital to him...but that was all...and that's where it stands now. <p>Dobson's right that it is very hard...it's like losing my best friend...even though we are separated we still were managing to work together and spend time together....but it was at a terrible cost to me and my self-respect.<p>Things are going okay except for times when he seems to deliberately do things he knows will upset me...like talking about other women around me....and then saying it shouldn't upset me...it's just guy talk. After the third or fourth time it got to me...I had to almost bite my tongue off to hold it in.<p>I do see him making the effort to contact me more...to reel me back in I suppose...but I'm remaining strong. He's told me that we are better suited to one another then the OW and he's tried of hearing the same old drunken stories...he says he has nothing to talk to her about...well, now he is not getting that from me...I hope I'm doing the right thing.<p>I hope this helped a little...wish I could say it's a magically cure but it doesn't appear to be...at least it's not a fast cure...but better slow and permanent then fast and incomplete, huh?<p>Faye
Faye

I cannot believe you agreed with SnL, Faye!<p>You two must be soulmates!!! <p>OMG .. I'm sorry, couldn't help it.<p>Jo

Hi everyone,<p>I have to admit after almost one year into recovery, if only I had just adopted Dr. Dobson's advice. The sooner there are no strings attached the better your chances are for a quicker recovery. After discovery though, it's nearly impossible to muster the resolve and esteem needed to take this tactic. If only I had pursued this method sooner. I truly believe the fog would have lifted much faster. Why waste your sorrow and concern on someone so far gone? WS's in the fog don't even hear your pain. It's far better to wait till the fog is lifted. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It's been almost a year for me and I believe much of my tears and hurt expressed early in recovery gained me nothing. WS's in the fog are so self absorbed it bounces right of them. It makes them even more angry. I don't make this comment lightly. I've had a highly successfull recovery and love my husband dearly. As much as I can't stand that the affair occurred, the fact that my dear husband was of little help in those early days hurts even more.<p>So my advice is to set them free to live their life. They will live as they please anyway. That is the state of mind of any WS.<p>Just some thoughts,<p>Shaz<p>[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Shazam ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>;Joe, I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave. My love for you is so deep that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a terrible shock to see our relationship begin to unravel.
Nevertheless, I have been doing some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I didn't blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me.
So, if you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. This entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. You and I had some wonderful times together, Joe. You were my first real love, and I'll never forget the memories that we shared.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Really, when you really read it, it's just another variation of a Plan B letter.<p>S_N_L - you surprise me - just when I think I've got you figured out! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lupo

If I could do one thing over it would be to say, in response to his "I want to be with her," would be to say "Go. Be free. Have a good life. I love you, but I won't have you feeling trapped with me."

Actually Jo....I agree with a lot of the things SNL says...but I just keep getting stuck in that "fitting" business....it always seems like another term for "soulmate"....no rhyme or reason for why they are the perfect person for you...it just is....something you just know...still seems like fogese to me. <p>And for a person who analyses everything...that's the one thing he's fail to take apart and examine adequately....at least sufficiently for me.<p>Other then that...we could be "soulmates"....OMG. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
Or I wonder if he could find someone else to fit with OW...the drunken, loudmouthed, cussing perfect person that she is. Oh, I forgot, "she" is WS's "soulmate"....doesn't say much for his soul does it.<p>You gave me a good laugh tonight and I needed it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love, Faye

Hindsight is definitely 20/20. Just like trying again, I would have said "fine, go, be free".<p>What I read, well... it sounds like a plan A to me. We know it can work, that it's the best chance at recovering a M.<p>Karen

Dr. Dobson worked for me! When you hold on too tightly, a WS will run through your fingers like sand in a tightly clenched fist.

I'm sorry but it seems to me that it is implied in letting someone go that they also free you from them...so in letting them go we also free ourselves of them...because at this time they want to be free of us. If you merely tell someone they are free and then continue to try to win them back to you by trying to meet emotional needs then you are not truly freeing them...you are merely letting out the string a little to see what happens. This is more a Plan B...truly setting them free...beginning the process of separtion from them...rebuilding your life without them...giving them and yourself permission to move on.<p>There is a time for Plan A and after you have tried to work on yourself and shown your WS that change is possible and they still continue to live in the fog...then it's time to begin the process of letting go...truly letting go....and they have to know that this is what you're doing..setting both of you free. I know that Harley says not to try a hybrid Plan B but circumstances sometimes leave you no options...so I am doing what feels best for me.<p>Faye

Not much to analyze buffy, if I were inclined, I would just say pretty much what Dr. Dobson said. And I agree that this is not something "new" it is just another version of what plan a is (as dave noted). I have maintained all along (and still do) that as this stuff we talk about has one and only unifying psychological truth, and that each thing we talk about is just a different perspective. The truth about the intimate human relationship we call in-love is that it can only exist in a totally voluntary atmosphere. You can not have coercive, manipulative, sacrificial in-love....so why even try? That is why vows are meaningless (in psychological reality). People do indeed DO what they want, that is what makes us human, and that is what is so wonderful about in-love..... when it works....that it is a completely free choice of TWO people (one does not work, must be two). <p>The confusing part (to me, but is clearing up) is how duty fits into all this. I understand now love can be a "contract" one can "do it"....one can decide to do this, to live like this, and be happy and secure (maybe).....but one should not mistake it for the psychological condition of in-love, cause it is not in-love regardless of the labels one cares to assign to it. This is truly a clash of core values (the duty vs passion conflict), what you value, how you think life should be lived, what is healthy or not is different depending on which core value you base your life on. And your behaviours and choices will be different too.<p>It puzzled me no end why folks advocate duty based behaviours, I couldn't see the benefit...but now I do (I think). I think how we choose our core value is in large part a function of our temperament, it is also a function of our internal self-sufficiency, and our willingness to take risk....IMO duty oriented folks are far less likely to take risk. In marital terms that means you do your darndest to hold on to what you have than the highly risky business of searching for a new mate. They put great value on the past, the history, and the resources expended making the current marriage work...even when they come to understand (or go into denial) it will never be all that great. They go outside the marriage for validation, either in religion (doing as God commanded supposedly, or in finding substitute outlets...friends, hobbies, causes, whatever). Frankly I think we all know whether we fit someone or not (meaning they/we are not intolerable), and how well we fit. We just all deal with it differently. <p>Why I agree with Dr Dobson (and MB for that matter), is they acknowledge you cannot bind someone into in-love, and it is not only useless, but counter-productive to try. I have always known that, and everyone (of the many times) my w has said she wanted out, I told her to do what she had to do, but that I was just gonna keep on keeping on (and not participate in the divorce, she would have to do it to me). I did offer reasons why I thought it was wrong (duty based marital arguments....yeah, I made em for years), and suggested ways we could improve things and so forth...... but I never told her she had to love me, or that I would dislike her, or make her life miserable if she tried to leave.<p>buffy....it seems to me that it is implied in letting someone go that they also free you from them...so in letting them go we also free ourselves of them...because at this time they want to be free of us. If you merely tell someone they are free and then continue to try to win them back to you by trying to meet emotional needs then you are not truly freeing them...you are merely letting out the string a little to see what happens. This is more a Plan B...truly setting them free...beginning the process of separtion from them...rebuilding your life without them...giving them and yourself permission to move on.<p>snl....This is where ones perspective can get confused, and I agree with you faye...letting go means a change in mindset, you acknowledge there is no more us, the clock rolls back to more like when you dated, the uncertainty is there, the ws has already served that notive, the bs needs to acknowledge and return the serve, so the power is equal, the relationshop egalitarian. This is where IMO many plan a go awry, they are using it manipulatively, they expect a result and this colors their emotional projections, the ws will sense this, and it is not helpful. The ones who do the plan a for themselves, and simply treat the ws with caring and respect (but also boudaries) because that is the decent thing to do, have it right, and project the strong independence that humans find alluring. Nobody on a primal level wants a weak mate, and a desperate, needy, emotional plan a pushes the ws away (even if somewhat attractive). I think this makes sense, cause ultimately trust depends on our assessment our choice of mate is truly interested in our welfare, and nurturing..... if that is true, and a spouse thinks they need to be out of the marriage, a caring spouse will let them go, a spouse who really is focused on themself will try to keep them (or vilify them)....a harsh truth, but IMO the real truth.<p>buffy...There is a time for Plan A and after you have tried to work on yourself and shown your WS that change is possible and they still continue to live in the fog...then it's time to begin the process of letting go...truly letting go....and they have to know that this is what you're doing..setting both of you free. <p>snl...Exactly, there is a short time after discovery, when everything is in turmoil, that being forgiving, and loving makes sense, demostrating a willingness to change, to create a safe enviroment, but IMO it is pretty short. And far too often the bs does indeed end up being a doormat.....it distresses me how many bs continue on and on with ws who won't even do the bare minimum to demostrate any protection, work on MB, or poja stuff.... IMO most of these ws are either controllers or have significant personality disorders, in any event not good marriage material (assuming the bs wasn't the, controller, abuser/neglectful, addicted etc. person).<p>buffy...I know that Harley says not to try a hybrid Plan B but circumstances sometimes leave you no options...so I am doing what feels best for me.<p>snl..I think the important thing is to understand human behavioural principles, practice the techniques a bit, then you implement it as you see fit, one size does not fit all, and as we see here all the time, there is real danger in just blindly following a rote plan without assessing who you are, who your spouse is, and what you really want, and how you want to get there. As many discover you can plan a yourself back into a semblance of marriage, but oft times little has changed (except you are even more unhappy), I think too the notion of waiting for an A to end is a two edged sword. Indeed most will fail, and then the ws returns (cause they have nothing better to do for the moment)...what is that? IMO people should truly "choose" each other maritally, and for a ws who comes back that is best demonstrated by a pristine execution of extraordinary precautions, and a wholehearted implementation of MB principles. If that doesn't happen I doubt seriously any restoration has occured at all, and the marriage is still nothing but cohabitation, and may be it just doesn't fit. It seems to me (too often) the bs just wants to win, and really doesn't do the work to determine deep down whether they really want this person for their mate at all.

SNL,<p>Well said&#8230;. I think this is one of the few times I agree with you whole heatedly. Change in you and your reasoning&#8230;. Not likely&#8230;more in me. Thank you for the objective perspective.

SNL,<p>As a duty-based person, I agree with a lot of what you say. Not all [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] but a lot.<p>_______________________________________________
Quote from SNL:<p>It puzzled me no end why folks advocate duty based behaviours, I couldn't see the benefit...but now I do (I think). I think how we choose our core value is in large part a function of our temperament, it is also a function of our internal self-sufficiency, and our willingness to take risk....IMO duty oriented folks are far less likely to take risk. In marital terms that means you do your darndest to hold on to what you have than the highly risky business of searching for a new mate. They put great value on the past, the history, and the resources expended making the current marriage work...even when they come to understand (or go into denial) it will never be all that great. They go outside the marriage for validation, either in religion (doing as God commanded supposedly, or in finding substitute outlets...friends, hobbies, causes, whatever). Frankly I think we all know whether we fit someone or not (meaning they/we are not intolerable), and how well we fit. We just all deal with it differently.
________________________________________________<p>Estes

I like it..and will take it one step further.
Being free to stay or go...face it..it someone wants out bad enough, we don't "allow" their freedom to be granted, they simply take it. <p>And vice versa..if they want back in to the relationship, they are free to accept whatever terms may be offered. This is a chance for a new beginning for both partners to put cards on the table and state exactly what they want in their relationship and how hard the're willing to work to achieve it. Either one is free to leave. So, while this can be harrowing for both, in a way, it's probably a more honest approach than when the relationship originally began.
T

In many respects, this reenforces what I've been thinking of as "no promises, no expectations".<p>In reality, that is really how it is. We have zero control over another's actions. We can only decide how we will deal with the stimuli presented. In many respects, it is very liberating.

Yes - I let my WH go - I realized that there was nothing I could do to change the path he was on - I had Plan A'd (without being aware of it) for the last 7-8 years of our marriage, but there was no lasting improvement. He continued to neglect our marriage, emotionally and sexually cut me off for long periods (years) at a time, was cold and cruel towards me, with a few period of relative normality. Once he got involved with OW and left our home, I realized that I had no control over what he did, only how I reacted to it. He tried, several months after walking out, to come back, because he thought the OW had given him AIDS and was scared that she might do something bad if he broke it off with her. After he found out he did not have HIV, he told me he was going to stay with her. What a jerk!!! Anyway, he must have still been having second thoughts. He called me to ask if we could discuss possible reconcilliation, and he told me what his terms were, what he wanted from me in order for him to come back. I told him that if he did not love me enough to come back with no conditions set other than love and a mutual willingness to repair our marriage and seek counseling, that he did not love me enough, nor was he committed enough for it to ever work out. I told him that his choice is not does he want her or does he want me, but now it is does he want her (OW) or not, and that he should take my name "out of the hat", period. I hung up and he called me back, saying "Does this mean we can't get back together if I decide I want to come back?" DUH!!!! What part of what I said did he not understand?!?!?!<p>Well, anyway, he dragged his feet for another two years before settling and finalizing the divorce. He married OW four months after our D was final. Guess he's stuck now!!<p>Oh, and by the way - I got the house, mostly everything in it, the pets, the friends, and spousal support for seven years. Not to mention, my peace of mind, and a new life filled with lots of friends, laughter, and freedom from his emotional abuse, blackmail, and neglect. I did not realize what a negative effect his behavior towards me had until it was removed from me and I recovered from the shock of what he had done and the kind of person he had become.<p>Living well is the best revenge!!!!!<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: yes ]</p>

Well, somehow I must have inadvertently changed my displayed name. How do you change it?<p>This is Lady M