Thanks it means more than you know.<P>NB - I just read your profile and I had the a similar experience. Me & OM, even though we were together for 2 yrs. just recently made love, July 2nd to be exact. It was terrible. I immediately wanted to stop after only a few minutes, ran away crying and locked myself in the bathroom. I felt so guilty, I wanted to just die. Then if you read the top of my post, the other few times together were terrible as well. I wish I never had. Everything else up until that point was beautiful between us, the kissing, touching, but when it came down to the actual act of making love, for some reason it hit me then. I felt so dirty, less of a human being. Like I deserved the worse.

Even though this posting helped me to realize some of the OMs negative traits...they still don't make me dislike him.<BR>Like Airheart said...I knew these things before and I always found them endering (sp?). I have to get over the OM other ways than by trashing him...because I'm only fooling myself.<P>At least it's easier to think about him these days. I actually went about 20 minutes this morning after waking up without thinking about him...it was the best feeling!

Holly and fhl, didn't reach the end of the thread, had to get in <BR>Holly, couldn't resist:<BR>Friendly towards everyone: so was my next door neighbour back home - many years ago - and he turned out he was part of the political police we had back them, and believe me the things they did to people were not friendly towards anybody !( most of his friendliness was to get more info on people to be able to denounce them as traitors to the government even when it was not true)<BR>Funy: SO is my MIL, to cover up the fact that she is a very insecure person.<BR>Good body and attractive : does that mean that you didn't rememeber to think about him when he balds, have a red nose, gets a pot bely and has all those hairs coming of his hears? <BR>I'm sorry. I know it isn't funny, and I'm there's a lot of people with those traits, and that are great people. But I'm afraid that like FHL and you too, I value honesty above those 3 things ( and a big list more ) so that flaw kind of erases all the qualities, don't you think so?<P>New woman: Where were your brain cells? Getting attracted to someone who doesn't like animals!!!!! Of all the... sorry, couldn't resist. But really...how could you! <P><P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Kat,<P>LOL, that's another interesting dynamic about affairs. Speaking for myself, I didn't bother to really get to know all about the bozo. He was just so nice (blech!) to me when I needed it. Said all the right things, and I guess the subject never got around to animals until we were already deep into the affair. I gave him he** when he told me that story about abandoning the family dog. I also gave him a lot of crap for not liking basketball, the Bulls and Michael Jordan!!<P>My H literally cracked up when I told him the bozo hated MJ. He asked me, "how big of a hole did you rip into him?" LOL! I'm glad we can laugh about it now.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi, all,<P>What a fun thread to read! I cracked up. Really, girls... HOW COULD YOU???? <P>I'm joking some, of course - oh, the things we choose not to "see"...LOL... yanooo, there's a common thread here though - that despite all the stellar qualities our H's had (not to mention a preponderance of Major Gorgeous Hunks, which Dunc also is) - a lot of those qualities seemed to be hibernating at the time. A lot of us seemed to feel like we didn't make too much difference in our H's lives, or weren't being listened to, or loved, or needed (note to betrayed spouses who are getting ready to clobber me: this does not justify our choices!)("standard disclaimer" ). Why else would we be so vulnerable to all those inferior TOADS?? <P>Anyway, Holly, Bonny, Hummingbird, New_Beginning, Nat, Tamis - hang in there, ladies, this too shall pass. I can't imagine how hard it must be for those of you who have to work with OM. FHL's advice to think of how all those negative qualities would play out in "real life" is good - cuz you know they would! Maya, New Woman, rjr#2 (aka Interplanet Janet), me...we've all 'been there, done that' - and you can too.<P>(p.s. - mine was whiny, defeatist, & self-absorbed... nowhere near as handsome as Dunc... also "bawk-bawk-*BAWK*!!", Can You Say *Chicken*?? Good Riddance! LOL!)<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Hummingbird,<P>Sorry so late replying... <P>Yes, I understand what you're saying about the sex being sad and horrible. It's amazing the things we do to ourselves. Why then do we have such terrible withdrawls? I can't figure it out!

Suse,<P>So glad to see you posting again on the forum. (Despite disclaimers, the more of us there are to clobber, the better! ) You hit the nail right on the head about us not being able to see how great our H's are at the time of our affairs. When my H is doing all the wonderful things he does for me and being the wonderfully special man that he is, it brings tears to my eyes that I just couldn't see, and he didn't know how, to show this side of himself to me.<P>So many things cloud our vision and stand in our way of being the people we truly are inside. But, I can't fret about the past. I'm just so grateful that we have found the key now.<P>Please stick around if you can!<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

You women all amaze me - I can't even bring myself to pulling away from the OM for fear of withdrawl, yet you all seem so much stronger then I am. HM you asked me if he was married, he is not. We play baseball together during the summer, and just clicked one summer and it wasn't until the following year that I would consider us to have started the affair. I had felt dead inside with my relationship with my H. and the OM was just there at the right time (or should I say wrong time!) When I haven't seen the OM for a couple of days I feel my mood change, and it's as if I need a fix and have to see him as soon as possible. And I wish I could say sex with him is bad - it's really good! Condsidering I haven't had those kind of feelings for my H for a long time - it's like a drug with the OM! I just can't imagine my life without either of these men - I have a great life with my H. - and he has really learned to control his temper and controlling ways - but I get this huge lump in my throat when I think of absolutely no contact with the OM. People always assume that the ones having the affair are cold, dishearted people for doing what they've done but unless you're in this position you have no idea what we go through and that it's not always what you planned for your future!! Thanks for listening, and for any advice. I don't know if I'll ever get through this but I know living these two separate lives is wearing me down. What a freakin' mess!

Hi Nat,<P>I understand you completely. The OM is an addiction and everytime your husband does something wrong or doesn't meet a need, the addiction is fueled.<P>It must be harder with OM not married. I question myself if mine wasn't and he hadn't broken it off would I still be home. Has the OM asked you to leave? I believe you said you want to stay married, so there must be love for your husband. I know it's not the same love but there is hope that it can be rekindled. You have to try and break it off with the OM if you want your marriage to survive. Believe me I know withdrawal is terrible and it will take a long time but it's the only way you'll find peace. I also know the feeling of being worn down mentally, emotionally, and physically and living two separate lives I feel now was worse than the withdrawal has been. The guilt I felt was overwhelming at times, unbearable. I would say to myself "Your a good person, why are you doing this", "despite everything he's done to you, he doesn't deserve this". <P>I know everything seems like such a mess now, but take one day at a time, it really is baby steps. It's been 5 weeks for me and I've just recently started sleeping again, every morning I wake up and thank god I made it through another night.

Dear Nat,<P>You are saying the exact same things I said about 2 years ago when I was EXACTLY where you are. I really wanted both. I started seeing a therapist because my life became unmanageable. It did not in the beginning but sooner or later the guilt, double-life, numbness, fear of the inevitable (you know you can't stay in the place you are in forever),nervousness, agitation etc. just got to me. I thought a therapist would have a magic cure. I could not BEAR the thought of going through the withdrawal from the OM but the thought of divorce and the huge mess there didn't look any better. <P>My therapist said that I would end it when "the pain became too much" and she was right. I needed to go one way or the other. So, I unconsciously left a few clues that something was wrong and my husband picked up on it and so ensued the worst months of my life. Long story short, I am better than I was, through withdrawal (I guess) but with my husband and much better off. <BR>I think that unless the OM ends it or does something bad enough that you lose all feelings for him, you will probably too end when either the pain becomes too much or your husband figures it out. When that happens, I do recommend (like Dr. Harley) that you try to take anti-depressents, it does help. I know this is getting hard for you or you wouldn't be here.

1. Believes that some people deserve to be lied to. He told me that after I broke it off and confessed to my husband. He believed I should have lied to my H. LOSER! His fiance probably doesn't know this, but she'll find out soon enough when he decides that lying to her too is a good idea someday.<P>2. Makes and breaks commitments easily. Cheated on his girlfriend, and later became engaged to someone he dated less than 6 months (current).<P>3. Throughly selfish. Did his part to ruin my marriage without any remorse. Only has pictures of himself up on the wall. No pictures of friends, fiance, or family, just himself. This was pointed out by a close friend of mine who works in the same office as him. <P>4. Ugly face.<P>5. Skinny.<P>6. Snobby, elitist, Ivy League brat.<P>7. Oh yea, completely sucks in the bedroom, too. <P>Overall, the experience was thoroughly a waste, ruined my marriage, my life, and my self-esteem. Cannot find a single redeeming quality in that troll. I suppose I'm lucky in that I figured it out pretty quick. Within two weeks, actually. Unfortunately, my husband couldn't forgive me. Part of the consequences, apparently.

Student:<P>thanks for reminding me about something: My OM also told me that line that some people deserve to be lied to. When I broke down and told my H of the affair, OM told me I was insane, and that no matter what was said to his wife, he would always deny anything happened between us. That was his story and he's sticking to it. He still will never admit to his W he had told me he LOVED me! He has only admitted to her he had a one or two-night stand with me, and it meant nothing (actually it was many years long, he had constantly told me I was the one and he had never loved anyone the way he loves me, and he had more than once told me he doesn't love his W and only stayed for the kids). Sorry to all the betrayed here, I know I have read so many of your stories where you have heard the same thing- that the other person meant nothing and that it was just a one-night-stand. It always makes me wonder if your spouses are being honest there. Anyway, reminding me of those lies and denials is giving me an even better sense of what a loser he is/was.

One thing that amazes me is how sometimes we can be so obviously blind to the lies. For instance, in the case of a betrayer who's OP was also married: Why in the world did you think they were not lying to you? They were obviously capable of lying to their spouse. "Oh, but he/she said he/she loved me." Bet you a bag of donuts he/she went home after and said the same thing to his/her spouse. If not, he/she certainly told his/her wife that he/she would love them forever at some point. If they can lie to their spouse, they can lie to you.<P>In the case where your OP was not married, of course he/she was a loser. I mean, if they couldn't get a date who wasn't already married and had to resort to other people's wives/husbands, we are not exactly talking about the top of the gene pool here. Anybody who had the least amount of success in the dating game probably wouldn't have had to stoop lower than "divorced". But to date someone who is currently married? "Oh, but he/she said he/she loves me more than anybody else, and it was just too bad we didn't meet before I got married!" Read: "I can't get another date so I'm willing to wreak your marriage and permanently damage your children, even though I have no idea if I want to be seeing you in about 6 months."<P>I think before considerring having an affair, I would get the loser to post a $50,000 bond that the relationship will work out. That way I would know if the loser is serious or not. (That's a joke, I wouldn't consider having an affair having been on the receiving end once.)<P><BR>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited September 13, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited September 13, 1999).]

nonplused:<P>I guess when you are the one drawn into an affair, at least in my case, you feel like you are falling in love. I don't feel like I, nor he, was a loser who couldn't get someone else. It's not about prowling after someone because you can't get another date. It's more like you have a friendship with someone that just keeps on getting more intense. Of course if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have let that happen. But I think you are off track when you talk about someone being a loser who can't get someone else besides a married person.

tamis,<P>If he isn't a loser, why aren't you still with him? You took some enormous risks to be with this person. Possibly wrecked a relationship you now think you should have saved. But now, feelings aside, I take it you are not pursuing a relationship with him. Why? I don't understand. If you are in love, go to your lover. If you are not in love, I just don't understand.<P>There are plenty of people out there who are willing to lie and cheat and steal to get what they want, even at great personal expense to the people they are using. By my definition, these people are losers. This does not imply that what I am saying applies in your particular circumstances. Maybe he was a nice guy and you were lying to him about the status of your marriage? I don't know.<P>If I slept with every woman I loved or thought I could love, when we talk about that feeling of being "in love", I'm sure my privates would fall off from exhaustion. But, fortunately, most of them (Cindy Crawford included) are not interested, and the remainder of them I love enough not to screw up their lives to satisfy my sexual desires. And I loved my wife enough to know that I couldn't do that without hurting someone I loved a great deal, while probably not helping the lover very much at all, resulting in a net loss over all for everybody but me. And what do I get? A fleeting emotional high, that passes like the leaves on a tree as soon as the weather gets a bit cold. That's a lot to force other people to pay for so little for me.<P>I think the dating "hierarchy" or eligibility list looks like this:<P>Single, beautiful, rich<BR>Single, rich<BR>Single, beautiful<BR>Single<BR>Single but recovering from a failed long term relationship<BR>Divorced<BR>Divorced with kids<BR>Separated<BR>Separated with kids<BR>Married<BR>Married with kids<P>This is NOT a hierarchy of personal worth, everyone is worth the same. Heck, many of those "Married with kids" people were "Single, beautiful, and rich" before. Some would say they are the ones to be envied. Otherwise everyone on the list wouldn't be trying to get to the bottom all the time. But yet that's what we do. Most people want to be "Married with kids" and spend an enormous amount of time and energy getting there. The list is just a hierarchy of dating eligibility, which is important when dating.<P>Why is it important? The scale reads from the top, which are the people most eligible and most desirable for dates, to the bottom, which is people who are definitely not eligible to be dating anyone. If someone at the top of the list wants to date someone at the "Married with kids" stage, I would have to wonder why. There are tons of people out there to fall in love with who might actually be in a position to form a healthy loving relationship. Why pick someone who is not available? Possible reasons I can think of for a single man to date a married woman:<P>- It's free! All the sex and none of the money.<BR>- It's easy! You can still go golfing on the weekend and you don't have to ask anyone.<BR>- It lacks commitment! No need to call tomorrow if you don't want to. Hubby will look after her.<BR>- She must be great! Otherwise she wouldn't be married.<BR>- Child support payments! Look at all this free money! Can you say BMW?<BR>- Would you look at the size of that house!!!! I could see myself in that.<BR>- Or, the one I feel is the most probable: It's the first date I've had in years.<P>Of course I'm being facetious, but I really cannot think of one good reason. "We were sooo in loovee!" Gimme a break. That kind of talk is for teenagers and people who read Harlequin Romance novels. And when you think of all the pain the marriage breakdown is going to cause every one including the innocent children, I can only assume the fellow is selfish to the point that nobody else will date him. Otherwise he wouldn't need to bear the guilt of having played his part in destroying a marriage, and he wouldn't bother either.<P>So, to be fair tamis, even though I am wrong in your particular case, I can't get over believing the generalization holds.<BR>

Double post removed<p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited September 13, 1999).]

nonplused,<P>I guess I wasn't able to make my point. I was not looking for an affair, and didn't purposely choose OM. Nor was he looking for an affair. We were friends for many years, leaning on one another for support we weren't able to get anywhere else, even though we both felt we had tried and tried agian at home. It wasn't like all of a sudden I thought I'd have a romp in the hay and he looked good. Also, the reason I am not pursuing him now is not because he is a loser, but becuase we are both married with children and finally came to our senses about what was the right thing to do. I don't suppose anyone else can understand. My marriage was not great before this happened, and now my H and I realize the things we need to work on. I made a mistake, I know. But at the time, i didn't care if I was messing up my marriage or not- because it was obvious to me my H didn't care about me at all and I thought my marriage was lonely and horrible.