C B,<p>As a BS, I understand the pain you are in. Your wife is 100% responsible for choosing to have an affair. But you are each 50% responsible for the state of your marriage at the time of the affair.<p>RE: wrote down 6 things that she has done to cause me to do the things I did, I call them specifics . <p>This will not work. You see the way this game is played, you tell her what she did to make you behave in the manner you behaved in. Then she tells you what you did not make her do those things. And then you tell her what she did to make you do those things. And you never, never reach and understanding or agreement with each other. It’s a never-ending game in which no one wins. So don’t play the game… stop it.<p>You know, my ex-h used to do that to me. Give me a list of things that explained why I was responsible for every problem in our marriage. He could treat me disrespectfully, show me no affection, have an affair, lie to me, hide money, yada yada yada. But for some reason all of his bad behavior was my fault. I left him after 14 years of this garbage. No I did not have an affair, but I can tell you that I wanted to so badly that I ached. I wanted to because my self worth and self-love had been pounded to the point where I felt that I was only a shell of a person. What finally woke me up is that there was a man who wanted me to have an affair with him. I did nto encourage him or have the affair. But just having him pursue me a little woke up something in me that had been dead for a very long time.<p>I believe that I understand your wife very well. No, there is no excuse for her affair. That was a bad choice on her part. But you need to start understanding the depth of her pain and feelings of hurt about the way you treated her. I believe I can tell you exactly how she feels. It is not so much your message but the way you are talking about it. YOU, YOU, YOU.... as soon as a person hears the "you did this and you did that" way of talking, their ears and emotions shut down. It is part of human nature.<p>If what you have been doing has not worked, then why would you keep doing it? You know that as long as you keep approaching her the way you are, you will get the same bad results. So change how you approach this.<p>Take a deep look at yourself and the state of your marriage at the time of the affair. What did you do to contribute? You have said that you were disrespectful? What else were you doing? Make a list. Don't add to that list how things she did that made you be disrespectful to her. Or the things that made you behave the way you did. You see, reguardless of what she did, there is no excuse for treating your wife disrespectfully. Admit that, take responsibilty for your wrong behavior and appologize to your wife for doing those things. Tell her what you are going to do in the future to be a different man and meet her needs. Always phrase things by using the "I feel...", "I was...". Avoid "You did this ", "You hurt me..." <p>for example, instead of "You hurt me when you ...." say "I feel hurt because of ......." <p>Work very hard to get the word "you" out of your way of talking to her ... "you" is accusatory. It will make her feel attacked.<p>another example instead of saying ... "You did X so it made me want to disrepect you." say "I know that I was disrespectful to you. I appologize for that. There is no excuse for my treating you that way."<p>Yes, I know that she hurt you. I know that your needs were not being met. I know this because she too shares 50% of the responsibility for the state of the marriage. She is also 100% responsible for her choice to have the affair. But don't brow beat her about it. <p>Are you familiar with the concept of “love busters”? Have you read the MB material? Have you read the book “Surviving an Affair”? If you have not please do before you talk to your wife about all of this again. What I’ve seen of your approach here, you are love busting all over the place. I do not see you taking responsibility for your part here. And you have to treat your wife in a way that shows her that she can trust you.<p>I am sure that you feel that you cannot trust her right now and that trust will have to be rebuilt. But there is another trust issue in a marriage… she has to trust you too. You have to show her that you are not going to use the things that she tells you to lash out at her. <p>I am remarried now. In March I found out that my H had been having affairs the entire time of our engagement and the 9 months of our marriage. At first I was very worried about if I could ever trust him. Then a very wise person pointed out to me that he has done something terrible and very much out of character. He was hurting very badly for the pain he had caused and his very stupid choices. She told me that before he could ever start behaving in a manner that would rebuild my trust in him, I had to prove to him that he could trust me with his deepest secrets and with him sharing the details of this terrible thing he had done. I contemplated this for some time and finally told him…. “We are all human and as such we all make mistakes and bad choices sometimes. I wanted to work with you to help us both heal and rebuild our relationship from scratch. I promise to never use anything you say tell me to hurt you.”<p>That said, I had the hard task of living up to it. There were times that I wanted to lash out at him. But for the most part I did not. He has learned to trust me. And in turn he has been working very hard to recover our marriage and rebuild his trustworthiness.<p>What I have said here is not the conventional way of handling things. It is the MB way and it is very very affective. Dr. Harley says that a couple should not rehash all of the problems of the past. Each of you has your story and you will NEVER agree with each other on this. So give it up. Admit to your faults and then move on. Marital recovery is not about assigning fault. It is about looking within ourselves to see where we feel down and then moving on to love our partner. If you were to tell your what you know you did wrong. Appologize, ask for forgiveness and then tell her that you are going to work very hard to let go of all the “he saids, she saids about the past”. Then set her free… what I mean by that do not hash over the past any more. Tell her that when she is ready to talk about things of the past you will be here to listen. She does not trust you right now. Perhaps she actually has a reason to not trust her emotional state and heart with you??????? What do you think?<p>Are you aware of the MB concept of emotional needs? Have you seen the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? It is available the book Surviving an Affair and on this web site. Dr. Harley suggests that a couple not hash over every wrong doing in the past. Instead they fill out the EN questionnaire and tell each other exactly what they need from this day henceforth. They fill out the Personal History questionnaire so that they get to know some very important information about each other. They follow the rules of protection, care, time and honesty. They do the work of discovering each other EN’s and how to meet them. And they work on discovering what things are love busters for their spouse and work like crazy to irradiate the love busters from their behavior. MB’ing is about working on yourself, to become the best YOU that you can be. In doing that, you start treating your spouse in the best way imaginable. You spend 15-30 hours a week together giving each other undivided attention. And in doing all of this you and your wife will fall romantically in love again. And the indiscretions and hurts of the past will not longer matter because you are now on the right road. Sound like fantasyland???? Nope, it works. My H and I and many others here can attest to that.<p>You may need some help in doing this as it is a radical change from the way people normally react to an affair. Perhaps you could some marriage coaching sessions with Dr. Harley.<p>So… fall in love with your wife again and seduce her back to you. No not try to change her, correct her, educate her. Focus on your faults and your personal growth. Become the most wonderful husband you can be. It is up to your wife to decide what she wants to do and how she will react to the new and better you. You can only control yourself, so focus on that over which you have some control. Let go that the rest.<p>Z<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Zorweb , I have tried for 6 months to talk with ws to figure out how we can change things . I tried to talk with her about what I have done wrong so I can fix and all she would say is I know we must talk but im not ready to talk. I have been on this sight since D day , read Sa and hsn hrn several times over. Ws spouse does not like alot of whatMB says in hn/hn ( she read it also). We tried a brief 3 sessions of counceling . councelor didnt help much , ws didnt talk much about her problems with me at that time either . I myself is in counceling now to fix what I believe to do wrong and to help get over this roller coaster . I have followed advise and guidance from a lot of people on this sight , Planned A to h^^l wouldnt have me anymore . went to plan B ws will not respect the request made in my letter . She does what she wants when she wants . I have basicly let her walk all over me. I know some of the things I can repair and I have told her how I can fix. I know what I can fix and I want to share with her about her thoughts, acceptance of my possible changes . She will not talk!
I believe you are correct about lashing out at her just last week. But I get so mad at what she does to the kids, sees them 3 nights aweek , very seldom on week ends. They are to call her if they need her on weekends. And out of the other side of her mouth she says that kids are her priority.
As diddallas suggest that its time to say your free is what I believe has to happen next> How long do things go on before you say enough ?
I have made my mistakes on how I handeld somethings since Dday but overall I believe I did good. And I have been more than willing to meet her 1/2 way as far as repair and change goes, But she refuses to come to the table with her needs.
In your opinon what should I do next ?

I think you're the only one who can determine how long to let it go on...no one of us has to walk in your shoes. I think you'll definitely know when you've reached that point.

C B<p>Ok, so you have tried to do the MB work and your wife does not really seem very interested. I do not understand people who approach life and marriage with that attitude. I know that there have only been two things that have caused me to behave in a manner that looked I was not interested in cooperating. The first was just youthful ignorance. It’s been a long time since I could claim that excuse (boo hoo). The other time is in situations in which nothing I said was ever taken seriously or made a difference. <p>RE: “went to plan B ws will not respect the request made in my letter . She does what she wants when she wants . I have basicly let her walk all over me.”<p>This sounds like you did not set the limits very well. If you set them and keep them, she cannot walk all over you in Plan B. This is because you have no contact with her.<p>Dr. Harley says that Plan A is very hard to do because the person who is plan A’ing is basically boundary-less. For this reason, a person cannot do it forever. They will be walked all over. <p>At this point it sounds like if there is any chance for your wife to decide to work on your marriage, she needs to know that you are serious about working on the marriage and needing her to do the same. I can see two ways of accomplishing this.<p>One is a good strong Plan B. And this time you do not let her walk all over you.<p>The other is that you continue Plan A and work on yourself. But that you also tell her in no uncertain terms what you expect and need from her. The hope here is that if you continue to not bug her about talking, and you continue to meet her needs, she will come around. Only you can decide how much more you are willing to invest.<p>I will stand by my remarks above about being careful to always speak using “I feel…” instead of “You did….” I hear and understand your frustration. At your current level of frustration it is very hard to keep from love busting.<p>A thought just came to mind. Have you ever asked her that since she does not agree with the MB concepts that you have found what she would suggest you both do to save your marriage?<p>Z

cb,
SO, I'm reading the whole thread here again and I think maybe (since I'm a licensed therapist---not!) your W could be keeping you at arms length so she can justify continuing the A...'he blames me for everything'...'doesn't understand me like X does'...etc.<p>Also, saw you said she wants (IYO) to be able to save face by him ending...I would think it would be the opposite--family would think more of her if she said she came to her senses and decided to end it to save your marriage. Just my thoughts.

Zor, It is 100% my fault alowing her to walk all over me , with kids it tough to be true to your plan . but I do realize that I have to get tough .I do speculate that she knows I have a big heart and she does not believe I will keep this no contact up.
Last night I left when she came over to see kids
I came back when she was to be gone, but she was still there . she talked with me and asked what I have been uo to , I said a lot of reading. She asked reading what ? I said I reading about my favorite subject , Our relationship , Im trying to learn how to do it right so if I get a chance again I will show you what I have learned. She asked how that made me feel , I said fine , but it would be great if I get a chance to show her. She said well I got to go , A hug , and down the driveway she goes. what do you think ?

DD See mt ws is a follower not a doer, It is my opinion that she will just sit back and let me divorce her and than tell her familly that she was ready to come back to the relationship. that way she will try to save face . It is a poor opinion but just one that I have . I have done this before drew up a idea of what was happening and talked with all these fine people on MB and find out I was totally off base .Sometimes I believe I am the one in the fog .

so, cb, what you mean is that your W wants to be the victim here? I really think she's trying to avoid responsibility for herself and until she does, I can't see this getting resolved in any way. Gee, I wish she would see a counselor.<p>Anyway, she's talking to you, better than some.

DD , If your a victim people wont be so quick to point the finger ? They will try to understand your actions. As far as seeing a councelor so do I , even our kids have asked her to do that . She scared that councel will tell her shes crazy. A little bit paranoid.

I'm sure she knows that her behaviour is somewhat irrational but admitting that you know it is something altogether different. If you are the victim, someone else is the bad guy, right?<p>I also think she's afraid that the counseling will make her have to admit the truth to herself---something real freaking unpleasant to do. I hate that your kiddos are disturbed by all this. <p>You have my thoughts and prayers. (altho some here think I am totally Godless!)

I guess I can see some of her discomfort with councelors. Mil asked her to see one , kids also asked , I ask that or marriage needs to see one .To much pressure she is bound to lock her heels. and im sure om tells her there is nothing wrong with her its the rest of us who are off center. Seriously I wish I can find the right words to say , do the right thing , whatever it would take for both of us to see A councelor I dont really believe that there anything seriously wrong with either one of us. But we need help to get our feet on the ground. But if shes not ready no one will get her there .The sad part of that statement is or marriage goes no were.

Had another conversation with ws last night . she was talking about her parents and me are not very proud of her. She said also if we really loved her we would see past her faults and what she is doing now . We talked about her father who has a real hard time with her and om , he will not talk to her even look at her. that upsets her and she said that he will regret that attitude later. I can speak for her parents and they dont have a problem with seperating and trying to straighten your m problems out if it dont work divorce . But they have a huge problem with finding om and then seperating and moving in with him . I have same problem, why is she so persistant that what she is doing is fine ? I suppose your going to tell me denile. I am just talking and scratching my head.