Oh, and with regard to him making a promise to her and making a promise to me:<p>Well, I honestly hope that they and their kids come out of this whole thing ok. I have been able to get great distance from all of the ruckus when I wanted to. Those poor children have lived a hell.<p>We have ALL made bad decisions in this thing. But when you know better you do better. I'm doing my part in that.

Hi Katie,<p> I've been following your posts and wanted to know how you came to such a view of marriage. I know you said that you grew up with absentee parents , was there infidelity involved? It seems to me that you don't expect much from marriage and seem like you are afraid of commitment. Were you hurt as a child ? <p>If I'm coming across as an armchair pyschologist just ignore me!....however, to me, you seem like you have alot of "personal boundaries" so as to not get too close.....<p>LU

Hi Katie,<p>I don't know if you recall but I posted to you on your other thread. I just wanted to comment on your statement <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It is true that I may forever view marriage the same way that I see it now. That it is simply a container in which to create great things. But at least now I am able to consider that there are those who see it another way.<hr></blockquote><p>It was the reference to marriage as a container. I thought it odd, but could not understand why? I am still not sure why I felt that description as odd, but here are some thoughts about it.<p>It seems to me you are not seeing marriage for what it really is. Perhaps your friends getting married don't either. My opinion is that marriage is not the container for it is not something that holds the relationship. It is however something that binds the relationship.<p>Let me try and explain myself. You meet someone. You like them, you enjoy their company, they make you feel good, fun, safe, whatever. Then over time the relationship starts to reach deeper levels. Eventually, you come to realize that this is a person you would like to spend the rest of your life with. Have children with, raise children with, but most of all journey through life with. I feel this last statement is the most important. For a good marriage, I think you need to view your life as a journey and the person you marry should be someone that would enjoy the journey with you.<p>Now, this sounds pretty idealic doesn't it? But, life isn't one happy journey. It is a journey, but there are tragic events, good events, mediocre events, and just plain bad patches. Many of these events will make you question whether you have picked the right partner to make the journey with.
Meanwhile there are children to raise, responsibilites to meet.<p>This is where marriage comes in, in my opinion. Marriage is sanctioned by virtually all religions that I am aware of. Of course it is now institutionalized in civil ceremonies as well. It exists primarily because every one recognizes the difficulties of life and the responsibilities. The marriage is a "vow" to journey together no matter how tough it gets. Marriage exists because of the bad times as much if not more than for the good times.<p>So if you marry you stand up before family, friends, yes even God, and promise to stick it out. You also promise to treat your partner on the journey with kindess and love, but the one thing everyone remembers is the "sickness and health".<p>Now you may never feel the need to share your life with another human being. It will not be your child although you may not realize that yet. The teenage years are natures way of telling you to boot them out of the nest. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Once, out of the nest the child leads their own life.<p>So if you don't feel like sharing the journey, then marriage is not going to be for you. But, when I was your age, I recall standing on a mountaintop looking at the most beautiful scene I could imagine. All by myself. And I realized that not having someone to share that scene with was almost the same as if I had never seen it. For I could never really describe it, and when I died it would simply die with me.<p>THAT Katie is when I knew that I was ready to consider getting married.<p>Katie, the most facinating aspect of marriage is the "vows". They remain one of life's great challenges. Can you make such a vow and keep it? Will you be able to find a way to lead a good life, share it with a partner, and take pride in what you have accomplished. A long marriage isn't a gift, it is an accomplishment. Much more than making your first million.<p>In any event, keep reading and posting. I think you will get things squared away in your head.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,
There is not one word that you wrote that I disagree with. Here's where we differ.<p>Weather you marry [legally] or not, once you get to the point in the relationship where you feel like "I want to spend the rest of my life with this person, share this journey with you, etc" [and they feel the same way] THAT is the point that you are married. So regardless of weather or not you have the ceremony, you are married to that person. When your heart is married to theirs, you are married before God.<p>The ceremony, to me, is about making that proclamation before man. To my thinking it's just a formality.<p>Marriage has nothing to do with what you do with your body. Okay, maybe nothing is an overstatement, but it has less to do with where your body is and more to do with where your heart is.<p>If there is no love, there in no marriage regardless of what any certification or judge says.<p>Lu,
There is no question that I am HIGHLY suspicious of commitment. Both of my parents have made it clear that it's a suckers deal.<p>I have come to understand that commitment/partnership is what you make it. That when it's good it can be wonderful, but when it's bad God help you. And maybe only God can help you.<p>I am commitment phobic there is NO question. I am becoming less so (in my old age). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] My journey has long been about breaking down walls and letting others in.<p>Ironically, the last 10 years have helped me become MUCH less commitment phobic. We stayed an "us" through all kinds of hell. I have come to a point where I want an "us" that's not somebody elses' "us" half the time.<p>The reason that I don't feel shameful about the affair is that it gave me more than it cost me. It was an astonishing experience for me. Problem is, this world is not just about me. And a lot of other people got hurt. So it's time to think less about the ME, ME, ME of it all and concentrate on the greater good. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Katie,<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Weather you marry [legally] or not, once you get to the point in the relationship where you feel like "I want to spend the rest of my life with this person, share this journey with you, etc" [and they feel the same way] THAT is
the point that you are married. So regardless of weather or not you have the ceremony, you are married to that person. When your heart is married to theirs, you are married before God. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree that we disagree. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But, here is my point. When you stand up and take a "vow" and make a commitment before everyone including your God, then you are married. Now you can go through life with someone without that commitment. BUT what happens if he cheats on you? or neglects you? What happens if you do it to him?<p>This is were commitment comes into play. You have been reading here and you have seen the terrible pain here. Why are all these people WS and BS struggling with their marriages? Why do most affairs NOT end the marriage? Because these are not relationships of convenience, they are relationships of commitment. Commitment doesn't mean there will be no divorce, but it means that each person is committed to do everything in their power to hold the marriage together.<p>For those that do this one of two things happen. One, the marriage is maintained and often made better. Two, there is divorce but one where at least one person realizes they have done their best.<p>I realize you don't agree, YET. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] But let me offer you a saying. Marriage is kind of like a breakfast. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed. <p>Now you may take from that that being the chicken is the way to go, and perhaps it is for you. But, you will know what true commitment is. <p>All of this is your choice, and most of what I am saying won't make too much sense to you until you become much older. At look at you age and smile, remembering how young and naive I really was at your age. Nothing wrong with that, it is that you will I hope remember some of what you have read on this site in 10 or 20 years.<p>In any event, keep talking and reading. It is my opinion that you are limiting your options far too much with your current point of view, but we all do/did that. At least you are bright enough to realize that perhaps there is something else out there and want to know what it is. That is a very good sign.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,
Again, I agree with everyting that you said. Based on my understanding of marriage, real marriage [commitment] all of the same factors are true.<p>Then again. I think it depends where you are coming from. I assume that you are married. Say you found out tomorrow that there was a clerical error and you discovered that you and your husband were not legally married. Would that make you less married to him in your heart?<p>I'd imagine not.<p>Real commitment is real commitment is real commitment. If your commitment is shallow, being married won't {imho} make it less shallow. And if it is deep a piece of paper won't make it more deep in your heart. And that's where it really counts.<p>Earlier you mentioned something about my friends getting married. I cannot begin to tell you how many women I know who are getting married becasue #1-they want to have kids, #2-they want homes, new car, etc, #3-they're getting "old".<p>I cannot imagine going out on a date looking for a husband. I feel like if i'm dating a person and they are wonderful, and I feel like I could do the journey that is my life with them. Then, maybe I would consider marrying them.<p>I have yet to meet a woman in my age group who has gone about it that way. Everyone is saying "biological clock, house in the burbs, lets get this show on the road."<p>Seems kind of sad to me. That's why I thought I had it all figured out. I got all of the "stuff" and wasn't trapped in a marriage.<p>True enough some of the unions based on the criteria that I listed above have turned into what i'd call a "true marriage". One that is from the heart. <p>Sadly though, FAR to many have not.

I should also add that I learned about marriage the way some kids learned about sex.<p>It was never discussed in my house. I learned everything I know from what I saw/see around me.<p>In the absence of trustworthy information I have come to my own conclusions.

JL, I never thought of it this way!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But let me offer you a saying. Marriage is kind of like a breakfast. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed. <p>Seriously, I share a lot of your thinking.<p>Katie, I think that the public aspect of the vows is a societal thing. Families, i.e. marriages, are the fibers of the fabric society. It goes back to this we don't live in a vacuum all by ourselves - thing.<p>When a man and a woman take vows before their friends and the world, they become part of the fabric of society, and their friends form part of their support system. It isn't just a formality.<p>Estes

Hi Katie,<p>First, one technical detail. I am a guy. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I am going to have to do some checking in the mirror or something, because you surely aren't the first to think I was a woman. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now down to business. <p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Earlier you mentioned something about my friends getting married. I cannot begin to tell you how many women I know who are getting married becasue #1-they want to have kids, #2-they want homes, new car, etc,#3-they're getting "old". <hr></blockquote><p>Frankly, those reasons don't do it for me either, because I obviously cannot have children, two I had all the other stuff, and three "old" has many advantages. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I cannot imagine going out on a date looking for a husband. I feel like if i'm dating a person and they are wonderful, and I feel like I could do the journey that is my life with them. Then, maybe I would consider marrying them.<hr></blockquote><p>Here I completely agree with you. I had been an active batchelor out of college for a decade before I met someone I was willing to share my life with. I dated many women far more physically beautiful, but they always had some serious flaws (as defined by what I wanted in a mate)and I don't believe in fixing people. I decide if I like them or not, if not, it is my problem not their's and I move on. In many ways much of what you say does resonate with me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have yet to meet a woman in my age group who has gone about it that way. Everyone is saying "biological clock, house in the burbs, lets get this show on the road." <hr></blockquote><p>Big mistake in my mind. No one has ever accused me of being PC or aligned with the feminist camp. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] But, I really do think that women need to take far more time in finding the right person as do men. My D who is in college is the recipient of my lectures on her being able to take care of herself, and taking her time with respect to men. My boys get a similar lecture. <p>We live a long time, and there is no need to rush to judgement when it concerns marriage. I also firmly believe there is more than one "right" person out there. So for me it is a confluence of the "right" person showing up at the "right" time before one should consider a marriage.<p>But, I do think, as we have tried to say to you, that there is a hugh difference between living with someone and being married to them. Of course that could be because most people do view marriage as a unique institution that requires you to be the "pig at the breakfast". <p>If you have no conception of marriage in this way, then of course what difference could it make? Right? Of course, then you are just going steady and can break up any old time.<p>What I do find interesting, is that you had a 10 year relationship, apparently dated and had yet another man's child, kept the 10 relation going and then ended it when you got what you wanted. That seems to imply that when the end came it was no big deal. You see we are talking a different level of relationship here.<p>Oh! well keep posting. We'll get you convinced in a few years. LOL<p>God Bless,<p>JL

MR. JL, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It may have sounded like it was no big deal when I ended my relationship with MM. It was a HUGE, GIANT deal and still is. I am still in love with him and not a day goes by that I don't think about him. Making a seperation from him (a real seperation) is one of the hardest things i've ever done. It's been 10 years of my life. And I don't take that lightly. <p>I did date other people. I did have a child with another person. I was, in fact, engaged 3 times in the last 10 years. I could never marry them because I believe that if I marry (share my assets) with another, that's a really really big deal. And while my heart still belonged to MM it seemed that it would be really unfair of me to pretend to be fully committed to another.<p>I know for a fact that marriage/commitment is not a big deal to LOTS of people. And you'd think that it was no big deal to me. I guess it really depends on how you define marriage.<p>I will say this, I believe that committing 100% to the heart of another person is a giant undertaking, and it's not one entered into lightly. I would not want to give my all to a relationship unless I felt that the other person was giving equally.<p>In making the decision to leave MM a lot of factors came into play. There is no question that I loved him and would have been willing to do anything to make it work. I was not sure that he was able to make that same commitment every day. The past 10 years have shown me that he can really show up when he wants to, but lacks the ability to do it consistently. I also found that while he is a good and often kind hearted person there is a lot of hurt that he has to work out that has nothing to do with me.<p>I have no idea what will come of us. Maybe too much stuff has happened this last 10 years. Maybe I know too much about him already. Maybe i'm too battered to even want to try with him [assuming that he was divroced]. I don't know.<p>If he showed up on my doorstep tomorrow and said "marry me" my answer would be a resounding no. Five years from now I don't know. We really really need time to grow without one another.<p>There, too, is the issue of comfort. I got used to things the way they were. I was content and comfortable. I became VERY resentful at the idea of reworking this structure that it took SO very long to put together. Our ending was very dramatic and was just too much for me to deal with. [Ironically, it had absolutely nothing to do with his W] It was not, and continues not to be, an easy deal. But, one day at a time I guess.<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

Katie,<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I did date other people. I did have a child with another person. I was, in fact, engaged 3 times in the last 10 years. I could never marry them because I believe that if I marry (share my assets) with another, that's a really
really big deal. And while my heart still belonged to MM it seemed that it would be really unfair of me to pretend to be fully committed to another.<hr></blockquote><p>Let see sharing your assets is a really big deal. What level of commitment would it take for you to share your assets?? I think you have a far deeper understanding of marriage than you are letting on or that your realize. The sharing of assets, life's work, etc. IS a big commitment. That is why "vows" are exchanged. That is why there are laws about taking care of the children. Heck, that is why there is pre-nups. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You are very right it would not have been fair to those men to marry them while in love with another man. I am beginning to think you know full well what marriage "really" means. Your issues are having to do with your current situation: being in love with a man that you cannot marry, and perhaps wouldn't marry. This coupled with the fact that he is married but still seeing you, just might be making you question the validity of marriage.<p>Am I close? <p>My guess is that you are more caught up with trying to come to grips with the situation you are in, than you are trying to understand marriage. I suspect you really do know what commitment is. In fact, it would seem that you have been very committed in your life to getting where you want to be.<p>So perhaps this discussion needs a bit of a mid course correction. What do you think?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I know for a fact that marriage/commitment is not a big deal to LOTS of people. And you'd think that it was no big deal to me. I guess it really depends on how you define marriage. <hr></blockquote><p>You know how I define marriage. How do you define marriage? In the best of all worlds what would marriage mean to you?<p>I think it is actually a bigger deal to you than to me, because you are struggling with what is your current reality, your own tendencies, and the sense that there is more to relationships than you have had to date. Hence you are struggling with the idea of marriage, your future, and your childs future. Serious stuff Katie.<p>Hang in there I am sure you will get it sorted out.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Okay, let me first say that this dialog is astonishly helpful to be. It's helping me get a lot of stuff straight in my head.<p>My reply: here goes,<p>What marriage means to me
By Katie Scarlett<p>Actually I think that you and I have exactly the same idea about marriage. It is the sharing of your life's journey. Your (financial)assets [God help me], your joy, your sorrow, your strengths and weaknesses. Sickness and health and all that jazz.<p>The difference between your thinking and my thinking is a VERY fine one. It is the question of when the commitment begins. Does it begin at engagement, as you're walking down the aisle, after you sign the katuba, as you take the vow? Or is it in the moment that the preacher says "I now pronounce you..." <p>I know that you would say it begins once the preacher says "I now pronouce you." I would say that it begins [allbeit] in baby stages when two people confess to one another "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you." I'm not saying that it's as deep a commitment as you have after 5 years of marriage. But to me, that's when it begins. And from there it grows. It blossoms and it becomes what the participants would have it be. Deep meaningful, rich and beautiful. If the partners are willing to come from those depths. For extra depth, beauty and richness [and legal obligation] you can add a ceremony where you make the same procliamation before your friends and family.<p>It is exactly correct that I am trying to reconcile my current situation in my brain. For the record I have not been intimately involved with this man since May. So, currently, I am looking back saying WTF was that relationship about.<p>ALSO, I am up to my eyeballs with marriages of convenience. Pratically EVERYONE I know is looking for a husband-in-a-box. Trying to get the goods. So they're sprinting down the aisle, making a big party and expecting me to send gifts for ceremonies that are anything but marriages in my opinion. Standing up before God, your friends and family and making a shallow commitment(in my opinion) is a FAR greater sin than making a heartfelt commitment to a MM.<p>I committed with all love and sincerity to someone that I would have gladly spent my life with. And for that commitment I was told "you should be ashamed." Meanwhile I watched whitedress clad friends parade down the aisle to marry men to get that new car he promised. And they were told "aren't you wonderful." I was left confused to say the least.<p>Ok so now it's a bunch of years later and I know a lot of things that I didn't know before. #1 being that there may be more than one person in my life who feels like "the one." #2 being just because you love someone that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to make a love pact with them. ESPICALLY if they are legally married to another. Lastly, THANK GOD I never legally married this man becasue now I can leave and not risk any of the financial gains made in the last 10 years. Making that divorce of the heart is another story for another day. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The bottom line, for me, is that commiting with all of your heart is an amazingly beautiful thing. And that can happen inside AND outside the confines of legal marriage.<p>PLUS, if you will notice, my defination of marriage expands to include gay marriage. While yours does not. But we'll save that political hot potato for another day. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Footnote: I have had the opportunity to see "fake" marriages turn into real ones. That is to say the people who married for less that "holy" reasons have become real partners and have grown into a real heartfelt commitment. MY grandparents are one such couple. It's a beautiful thing. HOWEVER, the alchemy necessary to make that change was NO JOKE. And I would not wish that kind of struggle on anyone!!!! I think current divorce statistics tell the tale of how hard that change is.

Hey JL,
When you get a get a second, will you give me the bullet? [stop smiling you lurking BS's]<p>What's your story, why are you here?<p>Does the W not hold the same opinion of marriage as you? Just wondering.

Katie
I wish with all my heart that my daughter would be open to this disscussion. She is a single OW and deep in the addition of the affair.
When I was growing up, the womans movement was new. Unlike today, the message was that getting involved with a married was enableing the men to be cake eaters. When I was aproached, I would think to myself: Do I look that needy? Does he really think I'm bying his "We sleep in seperate rooms" story? I was insulted.
Back then, Dear Abby had many articals about women who had been in affairs for years, only to never see the "promises" come true.
I know that he sounds sincere and maybe he thinks that he is But what is there for you. Where do you see yourself in #______________years.
Let's see, he has a wife and kid, proper place in the comunity and Glory be! a girl friend.
What do you have?
This has to hurt so much and I know that somehow you believe that there is NO one else for you. There is, you just have to take off the blinders in order to see.
I think that my daughter is in the relationship because she knows that it is going no where and she can always rationalize to herself that she really wasn't rejected. That in the end he just won't leave his kids.
Please open your eyes.This isn't about what you think about marriage, it's about respecting yourself enough not to be used.

gottruth?<p>I have been thinking of you and your D. I have been meaning to recommend Katie's posts to you. Glad you found this thread. I hope that your D begins to analyze her relationship before she wakes up someday years from now and finds out what she has sacrificed for her A.<p>Katie is doing an impressive job of analyzing her past choices and planning what to do with the rest of her life. I hope your D does, too. <p>Estes

I have not added to this post as JustLearning and Estes and now, gottruth? have done such a stellar job of steering it! Wow! Thanks. Katie Scarlett, I have been impressed by your ability to be so honest with yourself.

You guys have been awesome to me and I really appreciate it. I have to say that I initially had no idea how I [the dreaded other woman] would be treated over here.<p>All of you guys are at least a generation older than me, and so here's the piece in this that often gets missed.<p>Dating these days is a muthaf'er! All of the rules have changed. All of the expectations are different. I hear my mother talk about dating and I wonder "what planet are you from." People are waiting a lot longer to get married, career focus has replaced the family focus of old. Women are expected to do more, be more. That expectation comes not just from others, but it's an expectation that we put on ourselves as well. Women in my generation LOVE the idea of the "power couple." <p>Truth is my focus never was about family. PLUS, I saw myself as the cakewoman. I never thought of him as cakeman.<p>I got to make my career, have my friends, and basically live the life of a free and single girl. PLUS I had a non-demanding boyfriend, sex when I wanted it, trips, built in date and I didn't have to worry about marriage. Never in 10 years have I had to clean up after this man, never have I done his laundry. I honestly don't think i've ever even cooked him a meal. I had what I wanted.<p>Now, I want different things. Now it is time for me to make the kind of life examinations that my mother did at 20. <p>Being TOW was not all bad and for all of the hassle that it has become I don't regret it. I regret that it was selfish and cheated this man's family. But from a personal POV it was a safe move for me. <p>The major problem comes in when you decide that you want to make a life with someone and it can't be with the someone that you know so well, and love so deeply.<p>I think that the other piece of this that you guys miss is that I think in times past being TOW was a giant no-no. Anymore it's considered not such a good idea. EVERYONE who knows me knew about MM and I. My family knew, etc. They weren't thrilled, but I never bothered to hide it. To me it was no different that me dating any other guy that they didn't like. Plus, for the most part, he was good to me.<p>At the end of the day, there is a lot for me to figure out relationshipwise. And i'm doing that work, as you can tell.<p>I am involved with a really wonderful and understanding [single] man. He knows all about me and MM and he knows that I still have a lot to work out about that relationship. He is patient and kind.<p>So, I guess more will be revealed.<p>Oh and one last thing. I keep hearing about "the wasted time." I don't see it that way. It was time spent with a man that I loved and now that relationship has ended. I honestly don't see anything as wasted. In an era that has a divorce rate of greater than 50% my relationship fared better than most. Now it's time for us to part. And part we will. 10 years ago (heck 2 years ago) I never would have given my current boyfriend the time of day. It is only today in the shadow of the affair that I can see his beauty.<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</p>

I wonder if in 10 years you will still think of it as time 'not wasted.' Sometimes we don't see things because of our age or where we are in our 'development.'

Katie,<p>I would like to say that I have read some of your posts and am glad you are able to come here and have discussions with us. It takes a lot to come here and 'spill your guts'. This is a learning place for all who are willing to make the effort to learn. You have gotten good support here and I hope it has been helpful. <p>As you said you are younger than most and I agree that in time, the real reasons why we are here begin to take precidence in our lives. <p>I would like to address the concern that you 'loved the om'. In your heart these feelings are real. I know, when I was about your age I too fell in 'love' with a mm. Not knowing that at the time and even 'if' his excuses were legitimate, still my feelings for him were not good for the big picture. See personal feelings are personal but when they affect others, it is no longer a personal thing. <p>Ex: A kid may say, it's my ears, I like loud music. But you can hear his stereo 3 houses down. His personal perference has now impacted others. Yes, he has the right but is it right? <p>Same principle. So in my case, once I found out (way way way before the inception of MB).... I pulled myself out of the picture. Yes, I did love him in my heart and still do but not enough to have a relationship with him. I wish him well in his life's ventures but not with me. See we never bonded as H & W. I am talking more than just the sex part. <p>That is where the M is more than a piece of paper. Anyone who tries to treat is as just a piece of paper has never really been married. Not in the true sense of the word or never been in a situation where the value of that piece of paper has been put to the test like here. Even some married people think marriage is just a piece of paper. It is not. Regardless of one's religious beliefs, marriage is not just a piece of paper. <p>Katie, you sound like a woman who has the opportunity to make something good out of your life and should have the opportunity to share it with someone who shares those values. Choose carefully and wisely. You don't want to have to go through what we 'older' ones are going through. Life is too short for trouble. <p>Thanks for sharing with us. Though belated, welcome to MB. <p>L.

Katie,<p>Most of the people that post on this site are your age or younger. As for being a generation older, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] well it is probably true that I am older than your parents. <p>I think your questions self-selected the people that would answer you. In some ways you are right I don't know about certain things. However, the focus on career before marriage is a very common trait in my circles. I have mentioned to you that I didn't even consider a serious relationship until I was your age.<p>However, what you need to know is that you and your generation aren't all that unique. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] In the community that I live in most of the couples with kids in school are in their 40's to 50's most were and are professional couples. Most of us ordered our priorities and ultimately came to a conclusion I think you are gradually heading toward.<p>There is more to life than money. There is more joy in life than working, partying, and chasing whatever feels good. Most of my friends and certainly I went through that stage. But as I GREW UP, I began to appreciate different things.<p>I believe what all of us are trying to tell you is that you will start to see people in a different light. It would seem that you are starting to see things differently as well: hence all of the questions.<p>Katie, there are many rewards in life and only a few of them can be bought with money or achieved without effort and commitment. You are starting to sense them. <p>Oh! for the record dating has always been a pain. But I would agree with you that women have been fed an interesting line by their own. Frankly, it confuses men as well, but some of what you have been told will not stand the test of time. Other parts may. <p>In any event, I am glad this discussion has been useful to you. I am most gratified by two things. 1. You are beginning to appreciate the damage you have help do to your OM's family and W.<p>2. That commitment is something worth achieving in life.<p>Hang in there you will figure out what is bothering you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL