I posted a thread yesterday asking if the "fog" is real, and recieved many insightful responses.<p>Here is my perception on the "fog" and reality.
Keep in mind that I don't know anything and these are just my ramblings.<p>I believe my W's feelings for OM are real as are her feelings for me (or lack thereof). I think the "fog" comes in with regard to reality.<p>In her reality, our marriage is doomed and can never change. In my reality, a marriage can change if both spouses are willing to look into the part they played in it's deterioration and are equally committed to making the necessary changes.<p>In her reality, a relationship with OM in which innermost feelings and thoughts are exchanged is appropriate and just. In my reality, that's betrayal.<p>In her reality, lying and deceiving me, her family and friends is necessary to maintain her relationship with OM. In my reality, a relationship that needs to be concealed isn't worth maintaining.<p>In her reality, people cannot change. Our behaviors are inborne personality traits that cannot be changed, we are what we are. My temper and critisism were part of who I WAS. In my reality, I have changed. My poor behavior was based on conditioning and habit. I've worked very hard to change those habits by changing the way I react to things, thinking first and reacting based on thought not emotion, therefore creating new habits.<p>In her reality she was never happy. In my reality, I have dozens of cards and letters from her telling me how wonderful I am and how happy I made her.<p>In her reality, she couldn't talk to me when she began to feel unhappy in our marriage because I wouldn't understand. In my reality, I never got the chance to understand because she didn't talk to me. Circular reasoning on both our parts. "A" causes "B" and "B" causes "A" (ex: a W doesn't want to have sex with her H because he's never around and the H is never around because his W never wants to have sex). Regardless of whether I would have understood or not, that doesn't pre-empt her from talking to me. <p>In her reality, divorce is the only answer and nothing can change that. In my reality, divorce is only the answer when all other efforts have been exhausted, especially when children are involved.<p>In her reality, divorce will not affect our daughter and she will be happy as long as we're both happy (her exact words). In my reality, divorce will be terribly traumatic on our daughter, regardless of how happy we are. It will take her from the only home she has ever known and tear apart life as she knows it. <p>I'm not saying her perception of reality is wrong and mine is right. They're just different. However, the good thing is that reality can change and this site is loaded with examples of that. This gives me hope.<p>sad dad<p>[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]<p>[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

I am up for a little musing this morning, here are some thoughts about your thoughts<p>sd...I believe my W's feelings for OM are real as are her feelings for me (or lack thereof). I think the "fog" comes in with regard to reality.<p>snl...Feelings are always real, even a psychopaths feelings are real, even a paranoid schizophrenics feelings are real. And our perceptions of reality are always real too, there is no such thing as fog. We are essentially talking about a human brain, something that is intaking/processing/acting on information 24/7. Rather than try to characterize whether someone is crazy, normal, foggy, or whatever, all we can do is choose our own behaviour, and assess whether their behaviour is something we can work with...if not we put boundaries in place, and stay on our side, if they violate those boundaries we (the body politic) incarcerate or kill them. For marital circumstances, that means we find common enough ground to choose to remain married, or we divorce. Fog is the perception the bs makes that the issues killing the marriage are temporary and with effort can be resolved. As long as the bs understands that, fog is a useful label to identify the period of time given the ws to decide what they want (the marriage or not, under the terms the bs finds acceptable). What is not useful is trying to convince the ws they are in a fog, and should let the bs tell them how they feel. No human being will allow that, and the harder you try the more you convince a ws you indeed are the selfish manipulative individual they think you are.<p>sd...In her reality, our marriage is doomed and can never change. In my reality, a marriage can change if both spouses are willing to look into the part they played in it's deterioration and are equally committed to making the necessary changes.<p>snl..and you both could be right, depending on what your wife understands about herself and you. You may be willing to accept a marriage (reality) that your wife is unwilling to accept. There is this notion that a ws "should" want to repair a marriage, I really don't know why people think this. One of the reasons (in a species sense) I think affairs occur is cause a spouse does not want to be married anymore. May not think ill of the bs, but simply does not want to be married to them. This is so hard for a bs to accept, and of course leads to all sorts of pain, anger, and hard feelings as the marriage unravels. There is absolutely no reason why a ws should want to be married to you, that is why doing plan a/b correctly is so important...it makes the bs the most attractive as a marital partner, and gives the best chance the ws will choose them. But IMO the bs oftentimes does not do enough work to assess whether that indeed is what they really want too, instead its like they don't want to lose of something. What they don't understand is they have lost nothing real, they were living a picture, or in denial, people in-love don't have affairs. So the bs really needs to reassess who they are married too, stop making excuses for them, or accepting them as they are, and look at the marriage for what it really is or is not. I think far too many people remain married out of fear (essentially). The MB principles work. And it is useful to apply them as part of this process. And if you (or your spouse) find you cannot live that way, won't use the MB stuff, I gotta wonder why people remain married still anyways, makes no sense to me.<p>sd...In her reality, a relationship with OM in which innermost feelings and thoughts are exchanged is appropriate and just. In my reality, that's betrayal.<p>snl...I agree.. in part. Intially I think a ws does this cause the marriage has failed. And they do what people always do, and what they did when they dated you. Humans seek to bond, it makes little difference if they are married or not (one can realize this by simply examining what people do in large enough numbers that by definition this is normal human psychology). However, it is a betrayal if you are still married, but most likely there has already been plenty of betrayal too by the bs, so it is almost pointless to focus on you were betrayed. <p>I feel bad for the bs, and their very real emotional injury. But I do not feel overly concerned about this being a "BETRAYAL", I think the dynamics of the people and the marriage result in this outcome, and in fact that it should be viewed as a serious wake-up call more than a betrayal. Your wife did not betray you, she acted predictably out of the reality of your marriage. In so doing she feels ok with her choice. Let me ask you something sd (and anyone else) in a perfect world of rules a ws would never wander.... but if that were true, how could they ever know the depth of their unhappiness with you? People who complain about the morality and betrayal of affairs offer no other solutiuon. They say the ws should have come to them and expressed all this...how can a ws do this until they understand more about themself, and how can they do that when that understanding will not occur until they have something to compare against? Remember I am not talking about a concious plan, if a ws were that aware then the solution of divorcing a bs first makes sense. People are rarely that much in tune with themselves, and act on a lot of other levels. In many cases the ws did try to fix things with a spouse over the years, and was unsuccessful. The resulting distancing leads to emotional withdrawal (essentially divorced) and one becomes psychologically primed to engage in bonding behaviour with op. Maybe we should just build a safegaurd into our marital laws. Make marriage licenses renewable every 5 years, and require a one year waiting period between each renewal, people can continue on happily married, or are legally free to seperate and date, and thereby decide whether they really want to renew. <p>In any event, at some point it is reasonable to expect the ws does realize the new relationship is a betrayal to their spouse, and stop it. Returning to spouse and dealing with the marriage. IMO the fact that the ws precipitated this crisis, and did violate marital exclusivity imposes some consequences on the ws. That being the participation in a meaningful effort to retore the bs dignity, put the op at risk (meaning they might not be waiting for you, and you may end up alone no op, and no spouse), and a good faith effort at clearing up possible fog, and looking hard at the marriage. A ws who won't do that (unless at risk to a abusive bs, who IMO deserves nothing), must wonder about their own trustworthiness, and ethics, and why anyone would want to be married to them.<p>sd....In her reality, lying and deceiving me, her family and friends is necessary to maintain her relationship with OM. In my reality, a relationship that needs to be concealed isn't worth maintaining.<p>snl...The reality is deception is necessary, cause people will try to prevent you from doing as you wish (people have an annoying habit of interfereing with others choices). We all deceive, every single one of us, and we do so cause we do not want to deal with a consequence. Exploring the truth of a potential bond with another person is of sufficient importance to human beings they will indeed protect that. Makes no difference whether it is an affair, or dating someone you know mom and dad will not approve of. All of us are going to keep this to ourselves and protect a budding relationship, until we have some idea of what it means to us, an affair is no different in that regard. But this has a season, and I agree it cannot mature as a secret. Any relationship worth having is worth fighting for, that means the affair has to go public, and survive the societal pressures of friends, family etc. just like any other relationship. In the case of an affair, this means part of the deal is ending the secrecy, and the contact, until you have resolved the marital circumstances you are in. I agree a permanent secret relationship is a shallow thing, and neither healthy or desireable for many reasons.<p>sd...In her reality, people cannot change. Our behaviors are inborne personality traits that cannot be changed, we are what we are. <p>snl...She is correct, and hard as that is to accept, we are who we are, and change is only possible in limited ways. It will only lead to frustration to promise or attempt to change who you are for the sake of love.<p>sd....My temper and critisism were part of who I WAS. <p>snl..This gets trickier. I do think folks can make changes of the LB variety. Anger management, criticism and such. And if that is all that is needed that can restore a cranky relationship. But I also think it is much more complex too. These behaviours are in part an outcome of how well we fit someone too. They can also be deeply ingrained components of how someone copes, and your partner may be unwilling to wait years, or a lifetime to change. In your case if these were serious issues pre A, then it is fair for your wife to ask why did it take an affair, and you losing her to finally change, you could have done it anytime. This is always the issue for a ws, why should we believe you now? And how do we know when you have us all wrapped up again with you, you won't do the same? It is a trust issue, and a very deep one. You do not criticise and control with anger someone you love, no matter what the bs says, we know you did not love us. The affair sets us free, we now can choose you, or not. The natural consequence of mistreating your spouse is you might lose them, even if you change it is too late, if they come to love another. The only thing you can do is let em go, as peacefully and supportively as possible. If one cannot do that, if anger, hurtfullness, and criticism return as they go, then that pretty much says it all doesn't it, wasn't about them, was about you all along, and we know that. Obviously affairs occur for many reasons and about different things, but the ones arising out of a controlling and/or abusive/neglectful spouse are for these reasons IMO.<p>sd...In my reality, I have changed. My poor behavior was based on conditioning and habit. I've worked very hard to change those habits by changing the way I react to things, thinking first and reacting based on thought not emotion, therefore creating new habits.<p>snl...Let's hope that is true, time will tell. Just for the record I don't think all such behaviour is purely internal. I do think people who do not fit well bring out the worst in each other, it is a seperation pressure (like oil and water), cause they really should not be married. People who are forced into close proximity with someone they do not fit well will display aggressive behaviours (whether active or passive). Has nothing to do with their personal worth. Ofttimes they are well liked happy contented people with everyone but their spouse. This IMO is part of the danger of working too hard at a marriage, it is a kind of denial, and can prolong the inevitable for years, or worse yet be so successful that the two remain married for life, but in a shallow relationship, and doing much apart.<p>sd...In her reality she was never happy. In my reality, I have dozens of cards and letters from her telling me how wonderful I am and how happy I made her.<p>snl...This comes up from time to time, and the bs seem really confused, I have thought about commenting before. I too did such things, they really didn't mean anything. I did them cause I also was trying to live the picture, to bury my discontent, to appreciate my life. My w liked those things, so I did them, to make her happy...and yes, I meant them, sorta, but they were not legitimate indicators of the truth of our bonding. Many people live like this, and some of us are good at burying our real unhappiness, putting on our happy smile, and making everyone around us feel ok, and safe, and so forth, while we slowly die inside, cause we are not being taken care of. In a sense we are the victims of our own efforts to make it work, and why the bs is so shocked to hear how unhappy we were. But then they blame us, why didn't we say, well usually we did, it was just ignored...and why didn't the bs look hard at us, dig hard, find the truths too? I think the bs often does know, deep down, and is scared to death to face the reality maybe the marriage will never really work, is just a picture, and all that that means.<p>sd...In her reality, divorce is the only answer and nothing can change that. In my reality, divorce is only the answer when all other efforts have been exhausted, especially when children are involved.<p>snl...That is presumptous. Maybe she feels she has done all she needs to do, and when all the cards are finally on the table, divorce is the only option if you don't want to spend the rest of your life in someones bed. But I agree, human relations are complex enough that there is value in being sure (by doing the work of looking at the marriage, and stopping the affair). And yes young children are another factor in that motivation IMO.<p>sd....In her reality, divorce will not affect our daughter and she will be happy as long as we're both happy (her exact words). <p>snl...She is correct, although many still hang on to the notion divorce harms children. That is the only reason I remained married 23 years. We are in a time of controversy, but the handwriting is on the wall....divorce does not hurt kids, it is parenting that hurts kids. The reason divorce appears hurtful is cause the irresponsible parents do not continue to parent effectively. But then that happens all the time in families without divorce too. Studies of the success and social adjustment of kids of divorce when adjusted for effective parenting show no difference from those raised by good parenting in families not divorced. This means that both parents play substantial roles in the nurturing of the children, even if divorced. Actually this makes sense. Marriage is an artificial social contract, has nothing to do with evolutionary biology. KIds are not hindered or helped by the marital status of their biological parents, but by the nurturing of their parents. And in fact mature adults who divorce, but parent effectively, and marry other successful adults bring in more opportunities for mentoring and enrichment of the childs growth. Unfortuneately what happens more often, is divorced people continue to relate poorly to each other (which kinda makes questionable why they should have remained married anyways), as well as relate poorly to the new spouses.... this immaturity is what hurts the kids of divorce who end up in the middle of this crap. <p>If you and your wife are committed to raising your daughter well, and do what is necessary to insure that, your daughter will be fine. That usually means co-parenting, and the committment (which your daughter will quickly realize)to be loving nurturing parents who support each others parenting of her, and who remain on very good terms with ex (much like good friends). Can you do that sd?<p>sd...In my reality, divorce will be terribly traumatic on our daughter, regardless of how happy we are. It will take her from the only home she has ever known and tear apart life as she knows it.<p>snl...It will only be as traumatic as you and wife make it. There is much that can be done to mitigate it. As for tearing apart home, IMO that kind of stuff is hyperbole, and of little value in promoting. There is no psychological evidence I am aware of that changing the circumstances of a child (when done appropriately) is any big deal. We are an adaptive species, change is an inherent part of who we are. Peoples circumstances change all the time, death/injury of a parent, relocation cause of jobs, natural disasters, all kinds of things. We evolved as hunter/gatherers..... for humans all that is needed is the support of ones family. Not to say that disrupting/uprooting kids constantly is a good thing, or a parent coming in and out of ones life would be good (like an alcoholic, etc.). But the occassional change is ok, even militaty/diplomatic kids thrive, and they experience constant change, but they need to be supported properly through it. Sad dad if your mindset is this is a disaster, and your d is going to suffer, then she will....cause that is what you project. But if you project confidence, and that you will do all you can to take care of her (and wife does the same, and cooperates) she will be fine. <p>sd....I'm not saying her perception of reality is wrong and mine is right. They're just different. However, the good thing is that reality can change and this site is loaded with examples of that. This gives me hope.<p>snl...In the larger sense IMHO, draw hope from the fact that everything in life is an opportunity, and reconcille or not, you are embarking on a new adventure, a good mindset will go a long ways in determining the nature of the adventure. Keep in mind that if you do divorce, not only you but your d can be the beneficiaries of new realities that you cannot imagine, and your lives (and w) may be even better. There is the mindset divorce is a death, guess that is the cup half empty folks, it is also a birth, a new begining the cup half full folks. It is both, and as usual life is what we make it.

Excellent thoughts, sad dad:<p>There is a good discussion on your other thread.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=013675<p>I think views of reality really are central to understanding the fog. And I believe that each person has his/her own view of reality, so one's view of reality IS REALITY for him/her, no doubt about that.<p>However, while one's reality is absolutely true to him/her, this does not mean that that reality is really true. To persist in accepting an untrue reality is what makes the Harleys call this condition a fog, fuzzy thinking. And fuzzy thinking can exist on both sides of an issue.<p>For example, your W may have convinced herself that divorce will not hurt your daughter. She really believes this. It is true in her mind. It is reality to her. <p>Yet, this is a false reality. All sorts of research proves that. In this respect, her reality is wrong. Therefore, fogese.<p>Gets really convoluted doesn't it? Now, how do we make sure that everyone's reality is real reality, so we can heal?<p>Thanks for making us think.<p>Estes

"In her reality, divorce will not affect our daughter and she will be happy as long as we're both happy (her exact words). In my reality, divorce will be terribly traumatic on our daughter, regardless of how happy we are. It will take her from the only home she has ever known and tear apart life as she knows it."<p>No matter how hard we try to make our divorce as easy on our daughter as possible, she will determine what "reality" will be for all of us.<p>sad dad

Wow,<p>When you put it that way, sad dad, it takes my breath away.<p>I read a book that speaks of divorce as leaving a "hole in the heart" of the children that never completely closes. This author and her ex-husband worked out a way to minimize the size of that hole in their children's hearts.<p>Estes

sad dad,<p>I think you have figured out pretty well - as long as you are talking about feelings. Your wife feels what she feels, and you seem to be facing reality about that.<p>But FACTS are different from feelings. She may believe that children aren't harmed by divorce. She may believe that the sky is purple too. That doesn't make what she believes valid, but obviously, to say to her: You are wrong, is a disrespectful judgement.<p>It's one thing to disagree about feelings. For my H to say to me: I disagree, you don't feel that way - or I disagree, your feelings aren't correct - is highly offensive and disrespectful.<p>But you can say to your wife that you disagree with her opinion about children and divorce. <p>It's a fine line to walk - the reality is that she DOES BELIEVE that divorce doesn't harm kids. But you are free to disagree with facts - just do it in a respectful manner [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And btw, "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Judith Wallerstein is a fantastic read. It hurts like hell though, to understand the full impact of what your divorce will do to your children. I gave a copy to my H after I served him divorce papers last spring.<p>Fortunately for our children, our matching copies of that book now reside side by side on "our" bookself.

Obviously I like this topic.<p>Just read in the Sunday newspaper something that can be applied to the MB fog and one's perception of what is real. This quote is actually in reference to the Japanese during WWII, the current Al Qaeda terrorists, and their common fervor for the glory of self-inflicted death, but the general idea seemed to apply to the fog, also. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Our enemies may hold such beliefs fervently, but that fervor does not make them true... Theodore Gatchel, US Naval War College
<hr></blockquote> <p>I hasten to say that I am not saying that the BS and WS are enemies, but that fervor does not necessarily equate with reality.<p>Gatchel also said that this fervor is:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...the hardest to understand and therefore the most frightening... <hr></blockquote> which is what I was saying about the fog on your other thread, sad dad.<p>Estes<p>[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

How about this post from the D/D forum:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>HopelessinAZ
Member
Member # 9064
posted November 15, 2001 02:57 PM
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I am currently reading a great book. It is titled "The Spirituatliy of Imperfection. Storytelling and the Journey to Wholeness"
I found it in the addiction section of Barnes and Noble. It ties in with AA a bit.<p>This particular passage I found interesting as so many WS think that the idea of the fog is new and just MB pshyco-babble they need to think again. Disclaimer here, this book is not about infidelity.<p>Evagrius Ponticus, one of the more influential Egyptian monks, died in 399. Evagrius emphasized honest self-knowledge. He set himself the task of detailing the different traps and temptations that can distort understanding by imposing on the mind some false perspective. Evagrius called these traps logismos-thoughts that bewilder and befog the mind so that slowly, bit by bit, we drift away into a world of self destructive fantasy........................Logismos are the arch-enemies of the soul, the demons from within that destroy proper perspective on the world and thus prevent us from concentrating on the actual reality of our life, leading us to try to solve problems that have not yet arisin and need never arise. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>Estes

Hi Sdad,<p>How about reality itself? Is the glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full (that's an opinion) but is the victim dead or alive, that's reality. <p>When the WS is in the twilight zone, reality is part of the 'fog'. Even to basic things like calculating how much money one has to pay bills or when to wash their clothes or clean up their room.....it is easier for the WS to blame everyone else instead of saying 'oops I make a mistake'. Seems like if they have to admit to a mistake it would break the A. Ahhh they are right, it would break the A...... and that's where it might lie. <p>Til they figure that out, you could expect more babbling to spew out. We just (the rest of the world) have to grin and bear it. Very hard to do for the BS and family. But survive we must and can. <p>Hang tough.....
L. <p>ps: Hey Estes - thanks for posting that thought from HoplessinAZ, I have been wondering about her. We go way back in MB time.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I guess what I've learned is that "fog" does exist in our perceptions of reality. Right now our perceptions are different. The reality is she's filed for D. I haven't been served yet, but when I am and this gets started, maybe our perceptions of reality will change. It's one thing to want a D, it seems so simple and uncomplicated. It's another to follow through with it. In any case I'm hoping that once the process starts, something will change, but if not, I'm preparing myself for life without her.
I have no choice now but to let her go. She's free to have the life she chooses. I only wish she would tell me the truth, but I doubt that will happen.<p>sad dad

Exactly. You got it. Go to the head of the class!!

sad - I predict you'll be fine, no matter what happens to your marriage. I also predict you'll do the best you can with the hand you've been dealt to minimize the harm to your daughter.<p>Re: the fog. Our distractors can attempt to belittle our reliance on this term to describe delusional behavior and irrationality - the result of absurd rationalization - but perhaps it is they who have not yet found the clearing. Some may never recover, I suspect, and we have no choice but to allow them to exist in their alternate reality and move on. This is the "reality" we must acknowledge.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Excellent thoughts, sad dad:
However, while one's reality is absolutely true to him/her, this does not mean that that reality is really true. To persist in accepting an untrue reality is what makes the Harleys call this condition a fog, fuzzy thinking. And fuzzy thinking can exist on both sides of an issue.<p>For example, your W may have convinced herself that divorce will not hurt your daughter. She really believes this. It is true in her mind. It is reality to her. <p>Yet, this is a false reality. All sorts of research proves that. In this respect, her reality is wrong. Therefore, foges<p>Estes</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Excellent Estes! Fog is when the WS convinces him/herself that things are a certain way or will be a certain way when there is no way that will be the outcome in REAL LIFE! They truly believe these things at the time, but often (as in the case of my H and many others I have known) later they say "What was I thinking?". Both my H and my best friend said verbatim after their As were over "It was like I was in a fog." Neither of them had read literature about As or had heard that term used in regards to a WS. My H convinced himself he could be/act 20 years old again and not look like an a** (wrong lol). In the beginning he convinced himself that we would "always be best friends" and he would keep our very expensive house (that we built together) for himself (without paying me big bucks!) and he would get me an apt. and pay the rent for afew months until I "got on my feet". My lawyer really thought that particular bit of fog was hysterical. The list goes on and on. Revisionist history also goes along with it. My best friend convinced herself and anyone who would listen that she had nevr loved her H and never anted to marry him. Complete fog. I was there from the day they met. I was there when she cried her eyes out for days when she didn't get an engagement ring from him that one Christmas. I was there on their wedding day and clearly remember her joy at getting married. She also convinced herself that her MM was a Godlike man who had ridden in to save the day. He was actually cheesy salesman on his 4th marriage.He told her 3, but she later found out it was #4 and that W #2,3,4 had all been OW from the marriage before (guess there's a soulmate around every corner lol). In their heads they believed all of this to be true at the time. At first my H really truly believed he could rip my heart out, stomp all over it and kick me out of our home and that we woudl still be buddies and he could have the house free and clear. Just because he believed it didn't make it reality. My friend gave her MM all sorts of qualities he didn't have. Just because she believed it to be true didn't make it so. If I convince myself that I am now the president of Microsoft it doesn't mean they are going to start paying me big bucks. I used to know a girl who was convinced that she was going to become a supermodel. She was 5 feet tall and took terrible pictures. But she beleived it. Her belief never forced anyone to give her a modeling job. Fog is when your reality is not anyone else's (except maybe the OP). So believe whatever you want, just don't expect everyone else to go along with it.

br,
I do get it. It sucks, but I get it.<p>wat,
I will be fine and I'm sure in time so will my daughter.<p>dust,
When my W first told me she wanted a D, she thought we would just have a friendly sit down, go over the details, walk into a lawyer's office together and simply file the paperwork. Reality #1, I wouldn't do that, she would have to file.
After 7 months, she finally has.<p>My W believed she would be able to buy me out of the house. Reality #2, she doesn't have the money to do that nor could she qualify for a mortgage on her own. She finally realized that.<p>My W assumed she would get custody of our daughter and I would just agree to be a "weekend" dad. Reality #3, I am going to fight for custody.
She has since agreed to share custody 50/50, however I don't believe it's in the best interest of our daughter to be split between two homes.<p>Although I haven't been served yet, I'm sure her grounds will be irreconcilable diff's. She assumes I will go along and this will all be over quickly. Reality #4, I will contest these grounds and counterfile (as advised by Steve H.), not to force her to stay married to me, but to get the truth so I can have closure and move on. <p>Reality does change with every stage in the process. Unfortunately, it appears we are going to have to get down to the nitty, gritty process of divorce for any more reality to creep in, and even then, it may be not make a difference.<p>sad dad

Hi, sd,
I haven't been reading and posting a whole lot lately. I'm sorta in my own fog these days. My situation is still the same. Pretty much the same stage as you.... waiting to be served, and wondering if he'll change his mind. And your description at the top of this thread hits my thoughts processes right on the head.<p>We had sortof a bad conversation yesterday. I think I'm going to move to plan B this weekend. He wants to get together to negotiate our settlement, and I just can't handle that. Plan B at this point is simply to protect the little bit of love I have left, and avoid being manipulated in our conversations.<p>Anyway... just wanted to say hello, and I appreciate this thread a whole lot.<p>Hang in there, and I hope Thanksgiving goes well for you. I have plenty of family to be with, but it will still be hard. I'm really dreading the whole holiday thing, plus our anniversary is 12/29. Probably just in time for the D to be finalized. sigh....

Sad Dad and SNL (and everyone else)-
I basically agree with everything each of you has posted on this thread! So does that make it reality? Even the things ya'll disagreed about, I agree with parts of what each of you were saying. See how confusing this is.<p>My signature line, "Reality, It's Not What You Think", was taken from a bumper sticker that almost caused me to have a wreck - I liked it so much. What I think it means is that each of us creates our own reality and it may or may not be the way things actually are, but it is for us. Just because I think it doesn't necessarily make it truth. Truth is not subjective. My perception of truth (and reality) is, of course, subjective. <p>Gatchel's quote about our enemies tells of this phenomonem perfectly. There is another example (not as lofty) from the movie, "Working Girl" where Joan Cusack is trying to explain to Melanie Griffith that just because she is dressed up in a suit and acting like an executive (in the movie, she is a secretary who has a great idea that her boss won't listen to) she is still a secretary. Joan Cusack says, "I like to dance around and sing in my underwear - it don't make me Madonna".<p>I tell myself this all the time - "it don't make me Madonna" - to remind myself to TRY and stay grounded and be honest (at least with myself) about what is real and what is not.<p>I think the fog is real in the sense that people in the midst of affairs (or anything else comparable) are not thinking clearly, are not grounded and are being driven purely by emotion. Emotion alone should not be the CEO. Emotion needs a good, strong dose of logic at the helm.

Originally from sad dad<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My W assumed she would get custody of our daughter and I would just agree to be a "weekend" dad. Reality #3, I am going to fight for custody.
She has since agreed to share custody 50/50, however I don't believe it's in the best interest of our daughter to be split between two homes.<p>Although I haven't been served yet, I'm sure her grounds will be irreconcilable diff's. She assumes I will go along and this will all be over quickly. Reality #4, I will contest these grounds and counterfile (as advised by Steve H.), not to force her to stay married to me, but to get the truth so I can have closure and move on. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>
This is exactly what my son is planning to do should their attempt at recovery fail. He is Plan Aing himself to death. A lot of people ask why he is giving up an excellent job and moving to another state to be with a woman who has treated him so outrageously. <p>He told me that years down the road he wanted to be able to look his son (now 3) in the eyes and know he did everything in his power to make things right for his child.<p>Wishing you the best,<p>Estes

"This is exactly what my son is planning to do.....He told me that years down the road he wanted to be able to look his son (now 3) in the eyes and know he did everything in his power to make things right for his child."<p>My feelings exactly! All the pain and heartbreak I've been through this past year doesn't come close to the love I have for my daughter. She is my source of strength and my inspiration.<p>sad dad

sd, <p>One of the things that kills me about what wayward mothers of young children do, is how they disrupt the relationship dads have with their kids! These days, especially, a committed dad is treasured resource. Kids need a live-in mom AND a live-in dad. I do think that it is possible to raise an emotionally healthy child in a split family, but it's a whole lot more likely in an intact family. <p>I am an avid reader and listener of Dr. Laura Schessinger. She contends that children are better off with the bio-parents whose M is not great, than split up. I'm not sure I agree 100%, but it's food for thought. <p>Do you have a list of support readings for dads separated from their children? On the effect of divorce on children? I can direct you to some if you are interested. I have done a lot of reading on the topic because I am an educator, and now because of my grandson.<p>One thing that will never change is that you will always be her dad. You will never lose her heart no matter what. Courts do seem to have an interest in making sure that children have access to both parents these days. <p>Take care, <p>Estes<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

A book that I am currently reading is called "The UNexpected Legacy of Divorce"
and it breaks my heart. It was on the NY Times bestseller list last year and is a 25 year study of divorce on a group of kids and how they did over that time period and how they are doing now. <p> Its painful to read because I know that divorce for my kids is a real possibility id their dad makes that choice. I am reading it because I want to know what to expect, and also there have been a few times that I have been able to bring up what I have learned in our conversations. I want him to be very clear on what he is doing and what he will be doing to our 4 children if he decides to leave.<p> If yoou want to know what the long term effects are on children of divorce, I suggest you read this. It's certainly opened my eyes and broken my heart.