dd....truthfully, at this point, I cannot ever see me confessing to MH. He has already made it quite clear that he would never forgive anyone who cheated on him and I'm not willing to take the chance. <p>snl...Could you explain this? It sounds like you are saying you are deliberately tricking your H into staying married to you. How can you possibly do such a thing to another human being? You have taken his life away from him....haven't you? What is more fundamental to each of us as a human being then to freely choose who we want as an intimate partner. He told you his terms and now you bind him through falsehood, how can you possibly say you love him? This is all about you, he means nothing to you, you only "love" him for what he does for you, you "love" having him for your H. You are right, you are a liar.

dd...I am terrified of anyone (family/friends) finding about my crime.<p>snl...And you compound the lie. Your whole life is a lie, why do you want the goodwill of family and friends for someone you are not? DD you are on the path of destruction, the lies will eat you up, as they should. Not telling (at least spouse, guess family is optional) is the single most selfish and aggressive act one can make to another human being (just slightly better than murdering them), far worse than the affair itself. The affair was about you, and a bs just has to deal with who the ws is, and/or the truths about the marriage....but binding another human being to you by pretending to be someone other than who you are robs them of their dignity, their fundamental right of self-determination. One can claim to love their spouse, and still live the lie, but it is a transparent self-serving choice, and makes a lie of the so-called love. No one who loves someone would steal their life in such a way, love does not work that way, and we all know it, that is what eats you up, and insures the marriage will never be right, can never be right. If you really loved your H you would tell him. If you don't, you only love yourself.<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Ok, I can live with that.

Yeah but can your H live with it? I am really curious dd, it is not that often one gets to talk with a bonadide sociopath, why is it you even think in those terms, you can live with it. Why is it you can only think in terms of you? I figured you would answer this way, but I really would appreciate it if you made an attempt to explain yourself (won't hold my breath though). How does one live with no conscience, driven only by what they want? If that is not true, then how is it in your H best interest that you live with him in a lie? Sociopaths come in all shapes and sizes, they don't usually reveal themselves as explicitly as you have, why did you?

well, now you are just being rude and mean...I take it that you are a BS and therefore feel that you are a martyr for your marriage. Bully for you! It must be wonderful to be so far above the fray of human frailty and actually achieve perfection.<p>Since it offends you that I have the gall to approach others for help, I guess I will just be on my merry way. <p>I don't pretend to have any clue as to what your story is and I assure you, you have no grasp of mine either. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with your bitterness and getting on with your life.<p>As for the rest of you, thank you very much for listening and helping me on the way. If I have, in spite of my obvious self-centered, self-serving, self-indulgent lying self, been able to give any thought of any value to anyone, I am glad. <p>Peace to you, snl, I see that you need it.<p>[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

ya know what, I changed my mind---I'm selfish that way. I'm not letting you run me off.

dd,<p>If you runaway now, you'll always be running away from who you are and from the choices you make in your life. <p>I don't agree with the style or the words being used but SNL is asking you to explain yourself and the comments you made.<p>If you don't do it for anybody else here, do it for you? This is where the help starts...<p>good luck,<p>- Freddy

no dd actually I am a ws, and would have liked nothing better than to keep it all to myself, but I understood that cannot be, my w had an absolute right to know the circumstances of her life, and if I had any conscience at all, I had to tell her the truth. The truth about the facts, and the truth about my feelings....You have done neither, and that is what I am addressing, your own revelations. I cannot help if you find that rude and mean, you came here to a public board, where as much as possible, folks respond with the truths they see about each other, and people do with it as they will. Near as I can tell, I have been polite, and to the point, there is no need to mollycoddle you, and I would be doing you a disservice if I did not suggest you deal with some very unplesant truths about yourself. You said you were a liar, you said you intend to continue a marriage based on deciet, you said your H would leave if he knew the truth (which is doubtful anyway, rarely happens, so your fear is unfounded as well as self-serving) and therefore will continue to lie to him (for the rest of your life I assume?). I hear nothing in here about your H, I hear the language of a sociopath, one who uses others for their needs.....how do you not qualify for that label? Your glib comment you can live with it spoke volumnes re your mindset. You are supposedly here for help, yet you reject the first requirement, to tell your spouse the truth. That belies your stated purpose of seeking help...doesn't it? I bear you no personal ill-will, heck I don't even know you. And if you are truly a sociopath I am wasting my time, you will never act in anything but your selfish needs anyways, but on the oft chance you do seek help, and do have a conscience, then you can change the direction of your life by telling. It is an irrevocable step into the unknown, you would be doing the right thing, and putting yourself at risk, it will alter your life for the better, it does take courage, but your demeanor is not that you want to, and need encouragement and direction, but that you have no intention of upseting dd world, and that is what I address. It is hard not feel sad for the man you are duping, don't you feel sad for him? <p>dd....well, now you are just being rude and mean...I take it that you are a BS and therefore feel that you are a martyr for your marriage. Bully for you! It must be wonderful to be so far above the fray of human frailty and actually achieve perfection.<p>snl....Actually I am low-life fairly unremorseful ws, who is causing his w a bunch of pain and such, but at least I am being honest with her, so she can dictate the course her life takes, and that is the point. The A was a selfish choice I made, and it was hurtful... I am not condemning anyone that makes selfish/neglectful choices.... all do, bs and ws alike in marriage....what is heinous is keeping truth permanently from someone, things they need to know to govern their lives. Your secrecy has robbed your H of his fundamental human dignity, why do you do that?<p>dd...Since it offends you that I have the gall to approach others for help, I guess I will just be on my merry way.<p>snl....Hardly offended, just calling a spade a spade, if the shoe fits wear it. If not, then talk about it, maybe you have some valid argument for taking away your H dignity. I am not suggesting you blurt out the truth, while throwing yourself at his feet, there are right ways and wrong ways to reveal such a disturbing truth, but decideing not to do it, cause you want to keep him in your life has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with being a sociopath. <p>dd....I don't pretend to have any clue as to what your story is and I assure you, you have no grasp of mine either. <p>snl...Don't need any grasp dd, telling is an absolute, makes no difference what your story is. No one has a right to bind another human being to them decietfully, end of story, you are treating your H as property, we have a name for that, it is called slavery.... you deny him the truths that set us all free, the right to choose who to live in intimacy with.<p>dd...I wish you the best of luck in dealing with your bitterness and getting on with your life.<p>snl...Thank-you.<p>dd...As for the rest of you, thank you very much for listening and helping me on the way. If I have, in spite of my obvious self-centered, self-serving, self-indulgent lying self, been able to give any thought of any value to anyone, I am glad.<p>snl...No one is perfect, and for the most part all of us have functioning brains. I was addressing your issues, does not mean you are incapable of good observations about others, but the question is dd, what are you going to do about your life? <p>dd...Peace to you, snl, I see that you need it.<p>snl..... Yep, I do, my life is in turmoil, and it is not much fun, nor I am sure is yours much fun. I do think you have a conscience actually, but you are playing with fire dd, there is no acceptable reason not to tell, being afraid of losing him is human and understandable, but the fear itself is not enough to deny him the truth. Telling him will be the first step in overcoming the fear that seems to drive your life, you can heal, it isn't always easy, but the path is through honesty, with yourself, and those in your life. Ask around, the boards have many people who felt like you did, to afraid to tell, but more often than not, when they did, it did not go as they expected, and they grew as well. There marriage may or may not have survived, but if it did not, it was not cause of the affair, it was cause of who the people were. Marriages never end cause of affairs, they end cause someone would rather be divorced than married, and as long as that arises out of all the truths of who we are, it is a good thing..... a marriage based on anykind of deceit (affairs or otherwise) is not a marriage, it is a picture, a fantasy, and sooner or later the price of dishonesty will be paid. Good luck.

WELL, now I feel like a turd.

dd....ya know what, I changed my mind---I'm selfish that way. I'm not letting you run me off. <p>
snl...Good, prefer you stay. But ya know what dd, let me tell you a secret......<p>psst...I have no power to run anyone off anything, so ask yourself why all your posturing....ya know?

To Diddallas,
I have to admit that I am impressed with your response/reaction to having been a WS. The fact that you feel guilt/remorse means you have a conscience and that it is working. A lot of people don't have a healthy conscience, hence their lives are on a continuous road to ruin. You have had an adult response to your behavior and have not been justifying it by juvenile standards.
I do not agree with coming forth with the truth. If it is in the past, then leave it there. You may need the help of a counselor or pastor for your own sake. But at this point, if you love your husband and want your marriage to work, and you think revealing this will destroy your marriage, then what is to be gained? It is not everyone's business.
Regarding the guilt, if you have truly turned around, then shed it. It has done its job. Now you have to decide to not let it hold you down or it will. We only grow through tough times.

okieman,I confess to being fascinated by the hubris of the notion anyone has the right to deny vital information to another re their life. So tell me okieman, who is the arbiter of what one gets to know? What if her H (or any spouse) has made it clear this type of thing makes a difference to them, then it is ok for you (as the ws) to unilaterally deny them that truth, to trick them with a lie....and why, cause you decide they don't need to know.....that is so arrogant and so deeply violates another human beings dignity as to be breathtakingly manipulative. Nothing is in the past, I suppose if your spouse oh, let's see..... um has a secret life of drugs, gambling, maybe prostitution, maybe criminal activity....heck maybe they even molested someone.....but now they are changed, they are dealing with it, so it is ok to never tell you......why on earth be married to someone if they don't know the truth about you anyways? Let me ask you, is it ok with you that your spouse do whatever they want, and decide whether you should know about it? Is that the kind of spouse you are, only tell your spouse what you think they should know about you......? If so, tell me exactly how that builds intimacy, and trust? How can you ever trust someone who does not believe in honesty? Do you not believe in honesty?

snl,
hold on, let me get my dictionary--'hubris...hubris'...oh! okay, arrogance. <p>Let me just say this, please: I do agree with you about honesty and all that, and you are right, the secret is eating me up. But let me also say, that my H has for example told me right out that if he knew I had ever been intimate with someone of another race (yeah, he's a jerk sometimes--well, quite often) that he would leave me and never come back. So, should I feel compelled to tell him this fact of my life---after all, my lie of omission is denying him the right to make his choice. Or should I just come right out and tell him I slept with X number of men before I met him when he thinks maybe 4-5 besides himself. After all, I'm denying him the right to make a choice of whether he wants to be with a woman who slept around more than he thinks.<p>I understand that we are kind of talking apples and oranges here--that the affair obviously happened after we met/married--but you know, I'm the only one who has to sleep in my shoes, so to speak, and I'm not going to end my marriage because of some stupid thirty minutes. It's not my fault (and God, this sounds like such a pile of crap) that I am able to forgive him when he does junk like tell me that one night with someone else (before marriage) was better than a year with me, punches holes in the walls, compulsively lies about everything, puts his foot thru the car window cause he was drunk and I wouldn't give him the keys, screaming at me at the dinner table last night "shut the *f* up". Of course, he is always sorry after. And so am I. <p>Am I gutless? Yep. Am I lower than dog poop? You bet. This is, however, my take of the situation: I am happy that you can come clean with your wife and work things out..you are obviously married to someone who has evolved past the caveman stage. I came here to help re-build my marriage...even if I am the only one who knows it's in trouble...of course, I've been the only one for a long time--he just wanders blithely through it.<p>And I do appreciate your input. I really do. And I know you are right...and maybe some day I can do this. But not today. And not the day that crap just goes so bad that all I want to do is break his heart.

okieman,<p>thank you for your kind words--although many here feel that I don't deserve them. I am seriously considering calling up the old therapist and getting back with her.<p>I try to take responsibility for my actions--after all, nobody twists my arms on a regular basis. But I'm not perfect---just trying to be better.<p>[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

To SNL,
I believe in honesty and I believe in living by the truth. I don't believe in revealing information or facts where nothing good will be achieved. You obviously believe in the mumbo jumbo philosophy of "if it weren't true, I wouldn't tell you". I live by a high standard - it's called the Word of God. Your baseless philosophy isn't supported anywhere in his Word. In fact, the only one you can go to to be free of your sin and the accompanying guilt is the Lord.
That is absolutely powerful. Living by the Word of God brings unbelievable freedom.
Diddallas is on her way to recovery and has learned a hard lesson. I will support anyone who has made a complete turn around.
One more point in addition to total honesty (which is just another manipulation tool) - I don't support the notion of waiting around for a WS. There is no dignity in that.

okie,
I want to add this: I spent some time in a 12 step program and whole-heartedly believe in the tenets of it: one step is to make amends --i.e. 'fess up, atone, make good--but not if it will harm someone else. I'm ashamed of what I've done and I agree with you. I know that I've committed the worst crime against my marriage and truthfully, am afraid of its consequences...but I know that I would live through them in this life...it's the other one that I'm afraid of paying the price in.<p>I can't see how hurting my husband and shaking his faith in me, our marriage, the life we've worked hard to build (and it's been a long hard road for us) just so I can feel better about what I've done. Truthfully, I think it's a cop-out (can we still say that? is it still hip?) to say I had an affair because HE didn't meet my needs...
I had an affair because I couldn't control myself.

I had an affair because I couldn't control myself.[/QB][/QUOTE]<p>Now I would be willing to bet you can control yourself. Just take one day at a time and if you seek counsel make sure it is wise counsel. Don't start taking advice from just anybody.

dd....Let me just say this, please: I do agree with you about honesty and all that, and you are right, the secret is eating me up. <p>snl...ok, that is 1/2 the personal battle (we all live), recognizing the truth, the other half is acting on it.<p>ss...But let me also say, that my H has for example told me right out that if he knew I had ever been intimate with someone of another race (yeah, he's a jerk sometimes--well, quite often) that he would leave me and never come back. So, should I feel compelled to tell him this fact of my life---after all, my lie of omission is denying him the right to make his choice. <p>snl....Yes, you should tell him, but I am curious why wouldn't you tell him? (I know this was a for instance). Do you value so much getting what you want that you are willing to make your whole life a lie? I understand you want something, the marriage, but are you willing to lie to get it, or to keep it, if so what does that make you? Also consider the other shoe concept, how do you want to be treated? Do you want a spouse to conceal anything from you that they are afraid may change how you feel about them? Why would anyone want to live like this dallas, it makes a mockery of intimacy, of bonding, of love....<p>dd...Or should I just come right out and tell him I slept with X number of men before I met him when he thinks maybe 4-5 besides himself. After all, I'm denying him the right to make a choice of whether he wants to be with a woman who slept around more than he thinks.<p>snl...This is a different issue, pre-marital honesty vs lieing, but the principle is the same (btw there was a thread on this a while back, if I can remember the name I will search for it). If someone would not marry you if you slept with more than 5 people, and you did sleep with 7, why would you trick him into marrying you (by lying, or not volunteering this info)....frankly I do not understand why people will conceal info to marry or stay married...it makes a mockery of the marriage, as well as is a huge violation of the basic human dignity of another...tricking someone into intimacy is worse than raping them. You are literally stealing their life for your own purposes, it is incomprehensible to me....but I do know one thing, it will never be love, not as long as the secrets are between two people, and one is therefore unable to choose to love you freely, they instead love a picture, a fantasy of who you really are. Some go to heroic convoluted efforts to say, but yeah, I am not that person anymore, and they love me now, I am not my past (even if it was yesterday), and I don't have to tell....yeah right. No one can explain to me though how that is in the interest of the person you conceal it from.....if you are interested in more self-serving rationale, go to the students thread on en, she is trying hard to make the case for concealing ones past, although I don't think even she would agree having an affair while married should be concealed from the duped partner. Anyways, people should live the way they want, and I guess before marriage you have an obligation to tell your spouse you have concealed your past, and may very well lie about events in that occur while married if you feel it necessary.....then if they agree to that you are home free....did you do that? Or did you marry expecting him to be honest with you?<p>dd...but you know, I'm the only one who has to sleep in my shoes, so to speak, and I'm not going to end my marriage because of some stupid thirty minutes. <p>snl...You aren't ending the marriage, he would be. You are stealing his right to decide whether he wants to be married to you, surely you see the blatant self-serving rationalization you just made....this isn't your choice, you are stealing it from your H. You allready made your choice, and now you seek to avoid the consequnences by robbing your H of the right to decide who he sleeps with. How can you lay next to him, knowing he might not choose you if he knew who you really are? You ended your marriage when you turned to another, that is the way being a ws works. Your marriage is over, it is gone, it will not come back....you may continue along in a lieing relationship, but you will pay the price life extracts, that of living the rest of your life with a lie between you, your H never fully understanding why their is this thing he stumbles over between you.....and that affects you both dd. Who knows maybe 5 years from now your H wanders, or loses interest, and could be because of the lie between you. There is no escape dd, there are consequences. <p>You cannot make it as if it never happened by lieing about it. You may indeed stay married, but it will not be the marriage it could be, the deeply loving bond of 2 people who know each other completely, who trust neither would ever decieve them, who have shared and worked through all the troubles of a marriage, cause they loved and trusted each other....that is what you are giving up in your selfish and childish effort to undo the past...... in so doing you are throwing away the future. Rationalize all you want (meaning lie to yourself as well), but you are human, and subject to the same psychology as the rest of us. You cannot escape consequences, you may avoid certain ones by lieing, but that just insures other consequences. And in the long run you may not even avoid that, your H may find out some other way, life is funny that way, then you will be revealed not only as a cheater, but even worse a liar, anyone can make a mistake, but facing the music is how you heal.....liars on the other hand, the keepers of the deep dark secrets of life, those who deny others the truths they need to make their own choices, now there is a despicable human being, and who would want to be such a person. You have a choice dd, it is all fresh now, and being afraid is normal, even thinking it is for the best is normal, even panicking and not telling for a year or more is normal...but eventually IMO every responsible and trustworthy human being realizes they must tell the truth to their spouse, that there is no legitimate reason not too, that all the reasons not too only cause more destruction, even the best reason of all, that you will devote your life to making them happy (as payment), a complete sacrifice doesn't work, cause the lie still remains a cancer in the marriage, making the whole marriage one huge lie. <p>The thing is dd, revealing is necessary cause a marriage in trouble (an A pretty much means it is in trouble obviously) cannot be fixed without radical honesty, it can limp along, but it cannot be fixed. There is nothing particularly special about an A being the issue, that is only the sympton, the real issue is why, why the affair occured, and you cannot discuss, or fix that, without having it on the table. The affair validates the intensity of the marital issues, even telling someone you are dreadfully unhappy, doesn't work without the validating symptons. For example, men in marriages where sexual fullfillment is a big problem try to communicate with spouse who is unreceptive. Sometimes they turn to porn, the w finds out and know she decides maybe she needs to deal with her H issue, that wouldn't have happened without the pressure of the porn. Could go on and on, turning to alcohol, gambling, going on depression medication, affairs, all these things are sympotons of underlying problems in the marriage.... if the symptons remain hidden, the problems are never fixed, it takes the shock and reality of extreme symptons to get people focused, and committed on resolving stuff. Yes the marriage may end, but better end, than be a lie.<p>dd....It's not my fault (and God, this sounds like such a pile of crap) that I am able to forgive him when he does junk like tell me that one night with someone else (before marriage) was better than a year with me, punches holes in the walls, compulsively lies about everything, puts his foot thru the car window cause he was drunk and I wouldn't give him the keys, screaming at me at the dinner table last night "shut the *f* up". Of course, he is always sorry after. And so am I. <p>snl...You do not forgive people for such things, or affairs for that matter. (and I differ here from some), IMO no one but God has the power to forgive our sins, our transgressions. What you do is as humans is face problems and fix them. If someone behaves regularly as you indicated above, you do not forgive it, (or condemn it for that matter) you recognize this is not how how healthy marriages work, you make a reasonable effort to fix it, and if it cannot be fixed you end it. There is a whole pathology of dependentcy, and abuse that allows such marriages to continue. It is too bad cause it is very unhealthy for both parties, and no reason for it to continue. If this is the regular pattern of your marriage, and you accept (forgive) it, you may be suffereing from battered wife syndrome (which does not mean you are physically abused necessarily, it means you accept any definitively abusive behaviour at all on a regular basis). Has he ever hit you, or physically threatened you (same difference)? In any event someomne has to break this cycle, you did it with an A, oft times an A is an act of desperation, human beings want to survive and this is one of the ways they do emotionally. It is necessary emotional/psychological feedback at primal levels. <p>dd...Am I gutless? Yep. Am I lower than dog poop? You bet. <p>snl...You are not completely gutless, because A. you are able to recognize the concept of being gutless...... and B. you had the courage to act on feelings which ended in an affair. But now the really hard work starts. Putting the marriage in crisis, where it either ends or is repaired (along the lines of MB principles). You cannot fix a marriage (usually) until it is put at risk, and both people know it. Your H will not change until he knows you are willing to leave. You might think you aren't, but the affair says otherwise. People in-love NEVER have affairs (according to harleys, and I think they are right).... why are you so afraid of the marriage ending dd? Most would say cause they "love" their spouse, they are the one...this is rarely true IMO. People usually are simply afraid no one else will love them...they are too old, too ugly, to dumb, too too too...or they have kids, and no one wants someone encumbered with kids etc. etc...... This is proven wrong everyday, people wake-up from toxic marriages, realized life is not over, and go on quite successfully, is all about attitude. That is not what should scare someone....what should be scarey is living the rest of your life the way you just described.<p>dd... I am happy that you can come clean with your wife and work things out..you are obviously married to someone who has evolved past the caveman stage. <p>snl...well, so far things are not working out actually. But at least all the cards are on the table. And I can tell you the honesty (not only about affair, and details, but all the stuff about who we are, who our spouse is, all the emotional honesty) is tough, causes lots of problems, but having gone through it, I am even more convinced this is how people should live, there is a refuge in everyone knowing exactly where they stand. It can be painful, very painful, but it feels more like the pain of surgury or something, it hurts, but you know you are healing, you may never be the "same", but you are healing, and that is what is important. The marriage survives or it doesn't, but with honesty, at least everyone is healed and go on with their lives.<p>dd...I came here to help re-build my marriage...even if I am the only one who knows it's in trouble...of course, I've been the only one for a long time--he just wanders blithely through it.<p>snl...There is nothing wrong with that, many times only one is working, and it is a path that heals them, in so healing thyself, the marriage survives or it doesn't. But by now you know the first step of any marital restoration is radical honesty, it cannot be repaired without telling the truth according to the harleys, whose principles you seek to use. I will say again, that does not mean you "confess" as a dirty rotten sinner, and put yourself at emotional disadvantage with H. There is a right way and wrong way to do this stuff, the affair is revealed as a sympton of how much trouble the marriage is in, and you (ws) own the affair, and express you are willing to make it right, but you do not accept responsibility for the state of the marriage.<p>dd...And I do appreciate your input. I really do. And I know you are right...and maybe some day I can do this. But not today. And not the day that crap just goes so bad that all I want to do is break his heart.<p>snl...Thank-you. And I agree you do not tell him in anger or revenge, that would be wrong. But accept that you are very unhappy, and justifiably angry, and that this has made you vulnerable to seeking emotional safety elsewhere. Gaurd yourself in the future, now that you know how it happens.....or decide to divorce and leave. But if you choose your H, he is the one, he is who you want to spend the rest of your life with, then set the stage (according to MB stuff), and tell him soon, putting it off till some vague later is only another form of rationalizing.....if you are successful and make things a little better, make progress, than it will be emotionally much harder to tell later. There is a couple here (sem, and his wife) where the w did just that, it has caused huge problems for her H, and threatened their recovery. He would much rather had all the lies revealed upfront, so he could deal with it. Now is the time to tell your H he is in danger of losing you....don't be afraid dd, if you conduct yourself reasonably, then what will be will be, fear paralyzes us, and leads us to make bad decisions. If you live in fear of losing something, you never really had it anyways, and that applies to marriage in spades. Good luck.<p>btw.... you said you have to sleep in your shoes (bed?) that is not completely true, a marriage involves two people, so the decisions you make are never about you alone, you are making them for another too. You can't do that. If you want to do only what you want, then get divorced and live single.<p>also in the first round of posts, I was unaware you live in an abusive marriage (so it seems), that does alther things.....you may even actually be afraid (with good reason) to tell. Do not put yourself at risk, but I have to wonder why you would want to be married to an abuser anyways....or if you won't hold him accountable, why YOU have allowed yourself to lose your identity, and become dependent. This is very hard stuff for abused spouses, oft times abused spouses refuse to admit they are abused, and controlled.... if you have ths slightest fear this is true, you need lots of support and help, seek out some support groups to assist you, and learn to set boundaries, this will reveal your H true nature, and wehether he deserves your understanding and love.

okieman... I believe in honesty and I believe in living by the truth. I don't believe in revealing information or facts where nothing good will be achieved. <p>snl...That is a mutually contradictory statement. What you have actually said is you believe in truth and honesty when it suits your purposes.... correct? It is either a principle or not. I have no problem with folks not being honest, long as they reveal we cannot trust them to view this as a principle, did you reveal that to your spouse and friends and family?<p>ok...You obviously believe in the mumbo jumbo philosophy of "if it weren't true, I wouldn't tell you". I live by a high standard - it's called the Word of God. <p>snl...You live by no standard at all, you just said you are the arbiter of what is good, that is not a standard...well maybe it is, it is okiemans standard, are you such an authority that we should throw out absolute standards of honesty and use yours? Why yours, why not joes, sallys franks, osamas?<p>okieman...Your baseless philosophy isn't supported anywhere in his Word. <p>snl...Are you for real? Now you propose God is in favor of deciet?<p>okieman....In fact, the only one you can go to to be free of your sin and the accompanying guilt is the Lord.<p>snl..We are not talking about freeing from sin (maybe you have your threads confused), we are talking about concealing the facts needed by each of us to conduct our lives, that means not lieing to someone so they will choose to be in an intimate relationship with you....one that most of us view as trust based..... you disageee?

okieman...That is absolutely powerful. Living by the Word of God brings unbelievable freedom.<p>snl...No argument from me, and God makes it clear He hates secrets, and values truth, nor does any of the Biblical marital doctrine say if you have an affair, lie about it forever....or maybe it does...if so could you direct me to that passage, I seem to have missed it.

okieman...Diddallas is on her way to recovery and has learned a hard lesson. I will support anyone who has made a complete turn around.<p>snl...She is making an effort, and for that anyone should be supported, part of that support is pointing out what else has to be done. And chastising for things not part of recovery, such as a committment to lie.

okieman...One more point in addition to total honesty (which is just another manipulation tool) - <p>snl...And concealing truth is not manipulation? If I have to choose between the two manipulations I suggest being honest is the greater good, something we all know, even you okieman.<p>okieman....I don't support the notion of waiting around for a WS. There is no dignity in that.<p>snl...??????????? Uh, me either I guess. What did you mean?

SNL:And chastising for things not part of recovery, such as a committment to lie.<p>No one is telling her to lie. She just does not need to volunteer the truth. Part of the challenge will be to respond in truth if and ever confronted by her husband.

snl...And concealing truth is not manipulation? <p>OK: Nope. <p>okieman....I don't support the notion of waiting around for a WS. There is no dignity in that.<p>snl...??????????? Uh, me either I guess. What did you mean?[/QB][/QUOTE]<p>OK: just a statement that most people find hard to accept in this forum.

dd...I can't see how hurting my husband and shaking his faith in me, our marriage, the life we've worked hard to build (and it's been a long hard road for us) just so I can feel better about what I've done. <p>snl...You have ALREADY done this dd, concealing it does not mean it never happened, all concealing it means is that you can't be trusted to be honest, the basis of all intimate love.<p>dd...Truthfully, I think it's a cop-out (can we still say that? is it still hip?) to say I had an affair because HE didn't meet my needs...<p>snl...Actually I agree. I think one has affairs cause one no longer wants to be married (at that point), but it is not the affair that is important, it is the reasons why, and they cannot be uncovered and dealt with while the secret remains, that is the truth you reject, and the source of the long-term consequences you will suffer. The worst possible reason not to tell, and the most transparently self-serving, is I won't tell cause it will hurt my spouse so much. Instead you hurt them infinitely worse by making the entire marriage a lie forever, and reveals the truth of that reason, you don't want to deal with the pain, it is about you, not them. We do not have the power to protect anyone, we can only steal their dignity, and treat them as a child, assuming they cannot deal with the truth, I am sure satan is laughing himself silly that this reason is so seductive. There is only one path to freedom, and that is the path of honesty. The truth ideed does set us all free, that does not mean we will like the freedom per se, but in the final analysis it is the freedom we need.