Plan A hasn't worked at all. At this point my hopes are little to none of this working out. So I am going to try Plan B. However I have an issue with our money situation. I am the one staying with my brother. She has the run of the house which doesn't bother me. The point that bothers me is that she is spending a lot more money now because she needs to keep herself busy. Shopping, going out with friends, etc. So now I see her taking advantage of this situation. If I knew she was going to come back and try at the marriage I would have no problems with it. However a lot of her security came also from my finanicial contributions. I don't want to be a jerk about all of this. However if she truly doesn't want me in her life any more why should I keep supporting her with the money? I am not saying I want her to stay with me because I can give her money. It is just stupid for me to keep supporting someone who isn't trying at all on the marriage. What do you think? I want to get us into seperate accounts and we will split the money right now. We both will have to pay our half for the bills on the house. What do you think? It might be a reality check of what it really would be like on her own. Not sure she can afford a $545 car note plus all her other expenditures that she likes (hair, nails, clothes, etc..)

confused_guy,<p>If I am your W, I am running away from you too. Do you ever listen ?. IMO, you are not even in plan A or what so ever, now talking plan B ?.<p>IF YOU REALLY WANT DIVORCE IN NO TIME KEEP PUSHING HER AWAY BY YOUR $$ PLAN.<p>If you say you are in plan A, tell us what have you done lately for yourself so that W could she you as a change man ?<p>Even worst, have you figure out what need to be change in you ? Hint: what she say about your M & YOU ? beside "need space" etc ?.<p>I have a serious doubt if you want to save your M.

whoa guy - what do you mean "Plan A didn't work at all?"<p>What is "a working Plan A" to you? Forgive me if there's more info in previous posts of yours, but how much time did you give Plan A and did your wife acknowledge your improvements?<p>WAT

Well I have tried everything and attempted to do everything. I gave her the space she wanted. I told her that I would do anything to save our marriage. If that was moving off to where she wanted I would do it. I have never been in this position so this is hard.
So here is an email she wrote me. You can see what I am up against.... It isn't good.... What do you think now after you read what she has to say...<p>----
When we got married I wanted to get married. People change "confused_guy" and in this
case I have changed. I analyzed my life and realized that where I'm at
right now is not where I want to be and I was basically hiding that from
myself for a very long time. I did not want to face what I felt because I
was afraid of the consequences (hurting you, disappointing my family &
friends, disappointing your family & your friends, etc...). I did, however,
decide to stop feeling scared about what I felt and to let it out in the
open and face it - and that's what I'm doing right now, facing it. None of
this has been easy for me either.<p>I am listening to everything that you're saying confused_guy, but I don't agree with
it because I don't feel the same way that you do. That's why I keep telling
you that you need to listen to what I'm telling you. I want you to start
accepting what I'm saying and understanding that I cannot change what I feel
because I'm sure it's what I want. I do not want to be with somebody else
right now, so I am not looking for another confused_guy. I am looking to be
independent and go after some things that I can only go after by myself.
People change confused_guy, they change how they feel and they change what they
want. I am one of those people and I am not the only one in this world who
has come to realize that.
----<p>I want our marriage to work. But what she is saying doesn't include me in the picture. I don't want to give up. Her folks were the people who suggested that I stop her from spending all the money....

First do you have kids? If so you need to help provide for them first and foremost..<p>Is she working? If not she'll have to get a job so that she can afford to pay the bills she has..and
learn to be independent as she says she wants..<p>Now, if she is leaving the marriage mainly because of OM then it may cause her to rethink leaving the marriage..and decide to try and work things out..<p>Now if she's not looking at OM as the reason for leaving the marriage then it may not phase her at all about having to get a job (if she's been a sahm) <p>as was my case..I wasn't looking at OM as the problem (he was just a symptom of deeper problems within the marriage that needed to be address) so when my stbxh moved out and started saying he would have to stop sending all his paycheck home..like had been..I said I understand that..and I expect that..(it was something I had already considered when I gave him the choice to find another job or find someplace else to live) he was like "well, what are you going to do if I do that?" I said..well, I'll go back to work"
He was in shock that I said that..and then said.."why don't we just keep things as they are..
I'll stay gone and you continue to stay home w/ the kids..and continue going to school"
But, that wasn't an option for me anymore..I needed more from the marriage than just the financial support..I needed my spouse here to be a part of the marriage..so his removing the financial support didn't make things any better..<p>So it can go either way..just depends on where her mindset is..and whats really important to her..if the financial support is more important than OM it might work..but, if it's not the real problem it might not..<p>I'll also add, there have been times that I have thought of going back just for financial reasons..but, when he's not willing to make the needed changes to make the marriage work..I know things wouldn't be any different than they were..
and it's not worth it..<p>I just read your post w/ the e-mail..and I'll say..it doesn't sound like you are listening to what she is saying to you..<p>1. How do you treat her?
2. Do you treat her as an object, or as a person?
3. Do you value her opinion as a person?
4. Do you treat her with respect?
5. Have you looked within yourself?
6. Do you look at money as a way of controlling?
(really look within yourself b4 you answer that)<p>How do you treat yourself? <p>Do you drink alot, and not take care of yourself?
Do you work lots of overtime?<p>You have to treat yourself with respect so that you can also learn to treat her with respect..<p>How do you want to be treated? Does she treat you that way? If not..maybe you don't treat her w/ respect either.<p>How have you changed over the years? or have you stayed the same not growing at all?<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

guy - you didn't mention an affair and she certainly didn't, but if there's an OM, her e-mail to you is right out of the WS script.<p>blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada<p>Don't take any of this seriously IF there's an OM. Continue Plan A, slow down, catch your breath. Your situation is not unique.<p>If there's not an OM, you're in an entirely different situation.<p>WAT<p>[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

Well that is the case that the other guy wasn't the big problem. It was just part of the problem. I am up against the fact that she wants to do all these things that she says she can't do with a husband. I am willing to do everything that I wasn't doing in the past. The problem is that she didn't tell me what I wasn't doing. The counselor even told her that she has to communicate in a relationship. So now her way out of all this is by getting rid of me. She doesn't have to answer to anyone. How do I show a change when she basically keeps telling me to listen to her and to let her go???

OK guy - I suggest you figure out what changes you need to make - ask her for suggestions if you'll think she'll contribute an answer - and then demonstrate them when you get a chance. In the meantime, consider writing a Plan A letter. Here's an adaptation of the one I wrote:
***********************
Dear <Wife>,<p>We don't get many chances to talk, so I'll write this instead.<p>As I've said before, I still love you and want a chance to repair our relationship. This is despite knowing your affair with <OM> is continuing. I am painfully aware that I was not meeting your needs as a husband and I apologize for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with <OM> possible. <p>I have grown tremendously from this experience and I ask you to open your mind and see the changes for yourself. <Son> and I are closer than ever and I acknowledge that I did not always show him the respect he deserved. He has told me he loves me more than ever before. I have looked at myself from your perspective and have recognized that my emotional outbursts of the past were judgmental, insensitive, and counterproductive. I have a new appreciation for your need to be able to freely express yourself without hesitation. You can feel safe voicing your anger and concerns. Whatever happens to us, these changes are permanent in me and I am a better person because of them. I am soon starting with a therapist to explore other aspects I can work on. I feel much better about myself as a person and as an individual, I am strong and well along in my recovery. My life goes on.<p>During this experience my efforts have been on changing me, not on blaming anyone else expecting them to change. I am the only person I can change. I know I have other improvements to make - and you can help me. Similarly, I can be the best person to help you make changes - if you allow me in. In short, I will avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and we can create a new life for the three of us that will meet all of our needs. It won't happen overnight and it'll take a lot of work, but we owe it to <son> to try hard to make it work. Choosing not to try is the blind way out and it leaves the same problems unsolved and creates more difficult ones.<p><Son> and I are the two men who together can help you become happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent reality, here for the long haul, and we have a lot of good memories for the foundation of a family. Similarly, you can make the two of us very, very happy. We want you and need you. I will support any need you have in a non-judgmental way when or if you decide to end your affair. You can come to me in safety, knowing I will embrace you. Even if you're not sure, I will understand and provide empathy.<p>Whenever you are ready to talk, I'll be ready to listen. I loved you when I married you and I love you to this day. I am willing to do whatever it takes to put our family back together. I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage so that we meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new relationship in which everything we do makes all three of us happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate.<p>I am here for you and I love you,<p><Me>
*****************
Then, leave her alone.<p>WAT

WAT,<p>And how did she respond to that??<p>I cried..when I read it..<p>I think many WS's would if their BS would apologize and admit they too made mistakes and weren't perfect..and realize they can't stand in judgement of them for also making a mistake..by having an Affair..WS's just dealt w/ the same problems differently than the BS..

confused_guy,
I would do anything to save our marriage.<p>While there is no gurantee in life are you up to plan A/B ?. Just visit your prior post to find the link.<p>.... What do you think now after you read what she has to say...<p>I agree with everyhing she say and again I will run way from you, you never listen !. Don't you see that she is crying and screamming for help ?<p>Confused_guy, SHE IS WHAT PEOPLE CALL A GIVER SNAP. My WW is one of them. She give, give, give and receive none from you and lost hope on you . She looks around and say whay the heck let me try new life. Now it is up to you to save M. It is not going to be easy but you have to do plan A. Think hard on what she is complaining about ? you do not love her ? you never listen ? and see if you could change that for the sake of your M.<p>Here is what I want you to try. Go Home ... replay to her email and basically state: "I understand that you want to persue your dream, I do not want you to change your feeling for me and I do not excpect you too in the current condition. I need to go home where I am belong and make thing easier for both of us".<p>Before you go home, learn MB inside out and be the master of it. Stay co-habitat ... get back home ... she needs you. I just busted my IRA [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] since I want to save my M, to finance her A !!!!. Why ? because I love her and my M !!!, she is sick now and I will not forsake her for that and I will stand by her. I am not done yet with my plan A once I am done with it she has to make her choice.<p>I hope you do the same. She might not cry to you but she is crying inside. She needs you to give up on her so that she could go on but in the side she hopes you come to your sense and be "the man" that she loved. Go home and tell her that you expect nothing and be there for her ... and no LB !!!!. One word of warning ... It takes a long time for giver to come out of it, and one trick is let her start giving in a small way ... you will have to learn to be a skillful taker.

WAT,
I have to close my office door ... and hide my tear. Do you ever consider to post it in notable post as a Plan A letter ?. This letter is acknowledgement on plan A in progress.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>WAT,<p>And how did she respond to that??<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>TR - she didn't respond at all.<p>That was sent in Oct. 2000. The only thing she ever responded to was the Plan B letter - totally PO'd her.

confused_guy...<p>My H and your W would make a matched pair...<p>...according to all I have read, we hang on for dear life...try to avoid separation...and change the things we feel need changing in ourselves FOR OURSELVES...not as a means of manipulation...<p>That is key...anything we do IS NOT to keep the spouse or the marriage...BUT is because it is the right thing to do...FOR OURSELVES.<p>That is the key to plan A. FOCUS ON YOU, not spouse. Difficult...yes...just read my most recent posts...(I also get the added benefit of a hormonal surge once a month when I just can't seem to leave well enough alone...)<p>confused_guy...I am one confused_gal...WSs aren't the only wafflers...sometimes I just want to kick his butt out...others I just want to Thank GOD that he is still there....<p>Good luck on this terribly difficult journey...

Hang in there C_G,<p> You will face NO greater challenge that just hanging in there and Plan Aing. It will be the hardest thing you will ever do. But it has rewards also. The pain will ease a bit, you will make yourself a better man(not for your wife but for YOU)<p> I agree with others, you need to change who you are. Either your wife will see the new you and want you back or she won't. But either way YOU will end up a better person.<p> I would not cut off her money supply at this time. Give it a few more weeks. If you don't see positive changes in her in that time(after a great Plan A effort by you)then start the process of protecting yourself financially. <p> Good luck and keep posting for advice.<p> jd