Well, the weekend is about over, it's been a pretty good one for us. WS parents have been staying with us, as well as her sister and cousin. Ws is still staying at her girlfriend's house but has been coming over every morning and basically spending the day here (today she came over early, then did her own thing for the day and came back for supper- NO MORE TURKEY- PLEASE! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Anyway, she's been pretty well grilled by everyone (except me) and she expected that. Nobody got on her in a way to upset her, they were all just talking about the situation and giving her their take on it. Just so happens that they all agree with my point of view, but that's just a bonus (for me).<p>We've had a couple of nice talks together, and it kind of felt like old times part of the time. <p>For those of you who've followed my story for the last week or so, WS was having trouble prioritizing her EN. That was her "homework" (as I believe Lexxxy put it [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) from last Saturday, along with finding a single reason why she SHOULD fight for our marriage. So I had asked her if she'd like for me to give her a book that has a good definition of the EN, and a way to think about them in order to put them in a numbered order. She said OK, and so I marked the Appendix A and B of SAA and gave it to her. She asked if I wanted her to read the whole book and I told her that she probably wouldn't appreciate it at this time. <p>Well, she DID skim most of it and wanted to talk about a couple of things yesterday.<p>She didn't produce her list of EN, but said that the ten most common pretty much covered them. She wanted to talk a little bit about the EN that I was missing during my EA, and we talked about them a little bit (Affection- she was already p'ed at me because I'd started drinking often, SF- none in several months, Rec. Companionship- she didn't want to go out at all, let alone all the time).<p>Then she talked a little bit about her EN that've brought us here. About her resentment of me for all the drinking and stuff, she said she HATES me when I'm drunk. I told her that I had disrespected her and her wishes for me to be responsible and come home on time back then, and that I'm quitting drinking. She said, then the problem's solved. She talked about my emotional removal of myself. I told her that NOW, I know what a crappy husband I've been. I don't ever want to go back to the place where I disrespect her, neglect her, avoid honesty. I told her that I now know that I'm susceptable to depression, and I can be looking for the signs and get the help that I've resisted in the past. She said, problem solved. Her big one has been the lack of domestic support. I told her that I was lazy, I was complacent in the marriage, I didn't think I had to do ANYTHING in order to keep her- I took her for granted. I knew that she'd get mad, sure, but that she'd go ahead and do things, and then just get over being mad at me. I told her that I've been TERRIBLY disrespectful. I think I've done a pretty good job in the 5 weeks that she's been gone in keeping up with the domestic support, and I'm trying to make it a HABIT to do so. "Problem solved."<p>She then said she had a couple of questions about the book for me yesterday..."what about the story of Kevin and Lee"....Kevin eventually just let Lee do whatever it was that she was going to do for some six months. "Why didn't I just do that?" I told her that some MC actually encourage the BS to just roll over and wait with bated breath for the WS to figure it out (now, this is usually advice given to women), and they support it with passages from the bible. I told her that I didn't think I could just wait like that for that long, and I've been reading OTHER passages that DO NOT support that action. <p>I told her that I don't have a very good track record of giving people second chances (I didn't speak to my mom for 9 years after she walked out on my dad, I didn't speak to a cousin for around 5 after I left their business and some bad feelings were had). I told her (and she suggested) that I'm trying to get better at that, but that I'm just afraid that I'd fail and not be able to let her back into my heart. I told her that I might be too afraid to become this vulnerable to her again for fear of getting hurt again.....she said that's "EXACTLY HOW SHE FEELS". I told her that I understand and empathize with that. <p>We talked some more, and all in all, I feel pretty good about it. I don't think I LB'ed, and I only talked about the things that SHE wanted to talk about....In recent such talks, once the door was opened by her, I've pretty much taken control of the conversation and hashed it all out again.... I think that that kind of talk is counterproductive, because she just gets frustrated and nothing is accomplished, other than her having hard feelings. I wish we could just TALK, about OTHER STUFF, and we have some over the holiday weekend, but she still wants to try to talk through some of this. I just can't tell her that I don't want to talk about it, can I?<p>FINALLY, to the advice I'm seeking:<p>Anyway, this evening after dinner, she asked what church service we're going to tomorrow and said she could meet us there and then come home for lunch. This after all weekend (even earlier today) saying that it's just TOO UNCOMFORTABLE to go back to our church....baby step. At one point, when we were in a room alone, she told me that she wanted my definition of "trying" to work on the marriage one more time, but not tonight. She asked if it included her moving back into the house. She said that'd be a hassle (DUH, like the rest of this ISN'T? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), and that it might be hard on her girlfriend's 5 year old because she'd told her that WS would be there for the Christmas season. She also said that it wouldn't be any LONG THING, because she'd know if it was going to work or not.<p>I suggested maybe she could bring up those questions with Steve on 12/4 (her first - and hopefully not last- session).<p>What I DON'T want to happen is for her to move in for a week or two and then say, "SEE, I told you, I still don't love you and it's not going to work." Because I know she's still going to be in withdrawl, I don't know if she'll commit to a NO CONTACT letter, I don't know if her only motivation will be to "get everyone off her back."<p>Should I ask her what her motivation is going to be? I'm thinking that six months is a MINIMUM to see if she can feel love for me, but I hesitate to bring it up- she nearly balked at 5 weeks back when we were going to MC, and that was BEFORE all my psycho stuff.<p>What do you guys/gals think? I want to talk about this with Steve too, but don't have the session scheduled....he wanted for it to be after WS first session.<p>I'm thinking of maybe NOT having her immediately move back in (don't exactly know what/when she was planning on "trying" anyway). Maybe by Christmas or the first of the year, I don't know.....I don't want for her to go and spend a nice couple of weeks with OM and then change her mind either.<p>Thanks,
Kev

kevco-, did you change battery ? from enegizer (bunny) to duracell ... LOL [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] proud of you kev. You are doing good considering few weeks ago...<p>here is my 2¢<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong> I just can't tell her that I don't want to talk about it, can I? </strong> <hr></blockquote>
Yes. but do you want it to stop it ?. It might be very uncomfi for you but she is trying to open you up.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Anyway, this evening after dinner, she asked what church service we're going to tomorrow and said she could meet us there and then come home for lunch. This after all weekend (even earlier today) saying that it's just TOO UNCOMFORTABLE to go back to our church....baby step. At one point, when we were in a room alone, she told me that she wanted my definition of "trying" to work on the marriage one more time, but not tonight. She asked if it included her moving back into the house. She said that'd be a hassle (DUH, like the rest of this ISN'T? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), and that it might be hard on her girlfriend's 5 year old because she'd told her that WS would be there for the Christmas season. She also said that it wouldn't be any LONG THING, because she'd know if it was going to work or not.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let it go kev, you still have from now 'till Christmas. Be patience.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
What I DON'T want to happen is for her to move in for a week or two and then say, "SEE, I told you, I still don't love you and it's not going to work."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Take what you can get and show her your best. You are very fast learner, you could rekindle the spark in her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Because I know she's still going to be in withdrawl,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You bet she will be in withdrawal but hope you learn how to be there for her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
I don't know if she'll commit to a NO CONTACT letter, I don't know if her only motivation will be to "get everyone off her back."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You could ask but no LB and only sugestion. Whatever her motivation is this is you chance, take it and work on it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Should I ask her what her motivation is going to be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Watch out LB sign !!!.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
I'm thinking that six months is a MINIMUM to see if she can feel love for me, but I hesitate to bring it up- she nearly balked at 5 weeks back when we were going to MC, and that was BEFORE all my psycho stuff.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Give up on your demand ... you are in plan A for pete sake !. Take it one day at the time. Don't get greedy here.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
What do you guys/gals think? I want to talk about this with Steve too, but don't have the session scheduled....he wanted for it to be after WS first session.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
make appointment now for the day after hers ... Steve is very booked lately. I have to wait 10 days from my WW's.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
I'm thinking of maybe NOT having her immediately move back in (don't exactly know what/when she was planning on "trying" anyway). Maybe by Christmas or the first of the year, I don't know.....I don't want for her to go and spend a nice couple of weeks with OM and then change her mind either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why ? a bit nervous about yourself ?. You are not in control here ... she is. Let her move in if she want to but be ready. Then you have her from now 'till Christmas to show how much you have changed. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

kevco,<p>wow, you've come a LONG way. If it helps at all, my W expressed similar concerns. She said, she was shocked at how quickly I'd changed my behaviour but she didn't believe I would keep to them. She was happy about the changes tho. That was 4 months ago. So, I think this is pretty normal behaviour on the part of the WS.<p>What it does show is that your Plan A is working. And that's worth a celebration in itself.<p>I have to go - the boys are screaming at each other downstairs - need to run.<p>- Freddy

Kevco,<p>i think you are VERY wise for not wanting her to move back in too soon. VERY wise indeed. So many of us have let the WS come back home for the wrong reasons...<p>As for the conversation, congratulations; that was great. Now all you have to do is follow thruough with those promises ALL the time, so she knows you mean it.<p>As for her motivation for moving home...leave it alone. I would suggest you do not even mention it again. Let her bring it up, and really listen to what she has to say. It could make a world of difference if that important decision comes from her alone.<p>Hope this helps.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

Redhat-
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>did you change battery ? from enegizer (bunny) to duracell ... LOL proud of you kev. You are doing good considering few weeks ago... <hr></blockquote><p>First of all, LMAO! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Secondly, quite right, I'm doing well especially when comparing me to me a few weeks ago. My emotions are still high and sometimes near uncontrollable, but the raw edge is coming off just a little bit.<p>To answer your first question, no, I don't want to stop talking about it, but I DO want to stop upsetting her about it. I haven't been the initiator of one of these conversations for several weeks, but I do have a knack for finishing them....I'm trying to do better at that, and I think I was this weekend.<p>I DO want her to be here, even though I AM a little afraid that I won't be able to control myself 24x7. But I want her to be here for the right reasons, otherwise I fear it'll be wasted time. If every day, she's going to wake up and say, "Well, it's just not going to work. I don't know why I'm even here." That falls dangerously close to a self-fulfilling prophecy.<p>That's really the only reason why I'd consider asking her motivation....and I wouldn't ask it like that, probably something along the lines of "are you REALLY sure you want to do this, have you thought about WHY you want to....." I don't know, something like that. I know I don't want to LB.<p>About my comment on a minimum of 6 months, that's not a demand or anything, it's just the minimum amount of time I think it'll take for her to REALLY know what it is that she wants. I haven't put any sort of time limit on anything, and I won't. She's asked a couple of times, and I've just turned it around on her- asking her how long SHE thought was appropriate....don't recall ever getting an answer.<p>Freddy, yes it does help. I've read COUNTLESS stories on this board and others that have identical parts to our situation (kinda weird).<p>It helps to know that we're not the only ones going through a particular event, time, day.<p>Nina-<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i think you are VERY wise for not wanting her to move back in too soon. VERY wise indeed. So many of us have let the WS come back home for the wrong reasons... <hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As for her motivation for moving home...leave it alone. I would suggest you do not even mention it again. <hr></blockquote><p>You see the catch-22 in these two statements? I agree with them both, really. But I don't know how to reconcile them....I TRULY don't want her to be moving back or "trying" just to spite everyone (even though at times, I would even take that much effort on her part). I don't think that's probably the best way to reconcile our M...though I guess it COULD accidentally work (God works mysteriously).<p>But, at the same time, how do I know if she's doing it for the right reasons if it's not talked about? I can TOTALLY see my asking for her motivation as a potential LB (but only if she's not being rational- as is often the case recently).<p>Anyway, I wrote in my journal some of the things that define "trying" last night. I'd like to share them and get anyone's feedback (sort of an interactive journal [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Trying:<p>

• Definitely for WS to move back in.
• --Sleeping in separate beds would be ok with me for now.
• Identify and share EN with each other.
• --Allow me to meet her EN (I don't know about SF if it's one).
• Marriage counciling- with MB principles
• Getaway weekends- Retrouvaille, MB, daytrips, etc...
• NO CONTACT LETTER.
• -- Don't know how/if to raise this issue.
• What's her motivation?
• -- Another tricky topic.
• Boundries- we both need to set and communicate them.
• TRUST- We both need help to establish.
• -- ME: need to know when, where, with whom, etc...
• -- HER: need to be SHOWN that I'm not going to regress.
• NO JUDGEMENTS.
• TIME and ACTIVITIES together (15+ hours).

<p>Thanks all,
Kev

Kev,<p>Do you know what the status is between her and OM (oh, sorry - Other BOY) at this point?<p>If she's not ready to break that contact, I doubt moving in together is going to accomplish anything. I think you can "re-establish" together with each other from afar, without the added stress of "living together" and her still seeing him.<p>I think she's fence-sitting right now. A good place for YOU, but it "ups the ante" if she's still seeing HIM, too, and you allow her to move back home. Hmmmm.<p>I think just continuing to read SAA and "discuss" it - NOT you lecturing about it [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] is a good place to be right now. Let those points from the book begin to "sink in" a little deeper, and let her continue to see the changes in you. Not too eager to have her move home probably threw her for a loop, too!<p>Huh, I keep editing this and adding stuff I forgot! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] It's the "old brain cells" waking up again. I would hold off on the "motivation" stuff. Wait till she talks to Steve and see what he's able to pull out. Are you going to talk to him after she does? Same session, or your own? Do you think she'll share what he tells her?

You're doing great!<p>Lupo<p>[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: lupolady ]<p>[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: lupolady ]</p>

One step forward, about three back! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lupo, in answer to your question, I believe they're still seeing each other, I KNOW she wants to. I don't know if she saw him this weekend, but I had THAT feeling Friday night (but her dad went on her walk with her) and Saturday Morning (she did her own thing during the day).<p>After her parents left, we put up the Christmas decorations and then came "THE TALK." She wanted my definition of trying. I told her everything above with the exception of the NO CONTACT and MOTIVATION. I DID tell her that I'm hesitant to do it if it's not for the right reasons, if every morning she's going to wake up and say, "Well, I hate my husband today." I told her a part of me wants to take anything I can get because it might accidentally work, but I just don't know. <p>She said that she couldn't EVEN SEE having sex with me. I said that right now, there's not much in the world I would like more because I love her and miss her, but that I anticipated she'd say that. I told her that part of the "TRY" would be for me to be her SOLE provider of EN, and if SF is high on her list, then abstinance would be the only alternative, but that I HAVE to be her sole provider.<p>Then we went around again about how done she is, yadda yadda. She got pissed and started yelling about she HAS tried for the last 1-4 years and it's not HER fault if I wasn't trying too. I told her that I was sorry for not trying, and asked her to please forgive me for that one day. I told her that I want to be her PARTNER, to WORK TOGETHER to go forward (rather than starting completely over and playing catchup with someone else for the next 12 years).<p>She said that if it weren't for her parents, she'd just walk, that she almost doesn't even care about that. I think this is the FOG, the denial, the resistance talking a little bit. I have no doubt that she DOESN'T love me (at least not passionately), that she doesn't WANT to try, that she DOES want to just "get on" with her life. But I believe that if she WOULD end the A, if she WOULD "TRY", if she WOULD let me meet her EN (including SF, hopefully), that she COULD learn to love me again.<p>She's VERY resistant to committing to anything in terms of months (not that I asked)....she said she couldn't even envision putting everything on hold for months because she's young and wants to just get on with her life.....I told her that BECAUSE she's young, if in several months it just plain wasn't going to work, she'd STILL be young and have a long life ahead.<p>She told me that she KNOWS how she'll feel in several months, even though several months AGO, she loved me. I suggested that MAYBE she could change her mind again.<p>Oh, well. Long story (well, kinda) short, she says she's not ready to "try", and I agree. She says that she feels sorry for me but that I could end my pain (by just giving her a divorce). I said that WOULD be convenient, wouldn't it. It'd absolve her from all self-imposed responsibility (probably minor LB- she didn't take it too badly).<p>She said maybe she'll call and come over on Tues for MORE leftovers.<p>What to do, what to do.<p>Kev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong> she says she's not ready to "try", and I agree. She says that she feels sorry for me but that I could end my pain (by just giving her a divorce). I said that WOULD be convenient, wouldn't it. It'd absolve her from all self-imposed responsibility (probably minor LB- she didn't take it too badly).<p>What to do, what to do.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>
OK, Kev,
This is what I thought she would say....<p>She will move back in, "TRY" for a couple of weeks, and then say to everyone, "See? I told you it wouldn't work, I tried, I'm outta here, it's no use."<p>DON"T FALL FOR IT! Just leave things as they are. Plan A "from a distance" - give it time. I (and I suspect several others here!) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] still think you are trying to "rush" things. This is gonna take time. Maybe not as much time as SOME of our "situations" since her OB is soooo young. I think he'll "tire" of her sooner rather than later, but still, it'll wear old after awhile.<p>Hang in there, Energizer Bunny! I enjoy reading your posts, and seeing you grow by leaps and bounds in such a short time, too.....I'm learning from YOU, even tho I'm old enough to be your MAMA!
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lupo

LUPO,<p>The problem is I'm starting to buy into it. I'm beginning to think it's already well past too late (probably was months ago, even before the PA). I just don't know what to do.<p>WS just called and said that after she left, she called (or went over to- don't remember) OB house. Long and short of it is that he asked her if she was SURE that her decisions aren't being based upon him. She said she thought so, and he suggested that they take a 2-3 week break. Well, she wants to take the same break from ME as well. She said that after that time, if she still doesn't feel like "trying" then THAT'S IT. I told her that I believe in 3 weeks all she will have thought about is the OM, how she misses seeing him, misses his touch, misses him making her laugh....withdrawl. She said that he'll still be there in three weeks so she won't be suffering withdrawl like if she was never going to see him again.....I suggested maybe like a vacation or something, that kind of withdrawl. <p>This is where MY hurry is coming from. She's running AWAY from me as fast or faster than I'm trying to run TOWARD her. I'm SOOOOO terrified that their relationship COULD (as absolutely stupid as it sounds) develop into something more, that could last quite some time. I cannot and will not wait indefinitely. It's just too painful.<p>I fear that in three weeks, she's going to have justified her A and desire to DV even more and by then, it'll just be a matter of paperwork. I told her that it's NOT too late. She asked how she could be expected to just WANT to "try." I told her that all I would expect is for her to DO IT. To TRY to forgive me, to TRY to like me, to TRY to let me meet her EN, and maybe love would just follow.<p>I told her that I'm a good man, and I'm going to be a better husband. She said she knows, but.... I asked her WHY that's not enough, if she thinks that MAYBE I could be true, that MAYBE she could be happy with me, WHY ISN'T IT ENOUGH? She said that maybe that's what she'd think about in the next couple of weeks.<p>Apparantly, we're still going to get together this week for the bills, but she doesn't want to talk about our relationships....FINALLY!<p>I'm just so lost right now. She said she had some nice times this weekend. She enjoyed putting the puzzle together (family tradition), playing with the cats, watching me interact with her parents. WHY ISN'T IT ENOUGH, PLEASE GOD TELL ME!<p>I just wish she'd make this pain go away. Why can't she love me? <p>K

kevco-,
I have to reach and pull out one of your battery and replace them with an old and drained one. LOL !!!!. You are rushing thing up. She is very unsure and actually I am very glad that the talk about R is stopped by her. She might realize it doesn't bring anything constructive right now.<p>My WW is the same way, a giver snap. All you could do is show it to her and let her choose. You have much better chance than I do. OM is young and she will not be able to keep up with it and/or OM will get tired of her. Let A dies.<p>If she moves in take it if you could handle your emotions otherwise do not even bring this subject. Giver in her need to give, kind of an EN, hope you could be that skillfull taker to receive it not OM.

Kev,<p> I have been going through this for 10 months. Others here have been doing it for YEARS.<p> I just want to say to you that if I had known where I would be today in my relationship with my wife....I would have walked 10 months ago.<p> My W says some of the same stuff yours does, she is in teaching also. Her OMs were not former students but still. Thing is, it has not been worth it. All the suffering I have done, the kids have done, and yes WS has done. Had I Plan B'd her early on, or just left her and let her do her thing.....well, there's no telling where we would be today.<p> One thing is certian, the emotional pain would be a lot less by now.<p> I have decided that I will go ahead and do the Plan B letter and I will also move away to ensure no contact. She will be able to reach me if she ever decides to reconcile or in emergencies. <p> Thing is, each day that passes I lose a little more of my sanity(not my love). While I love her with all that I am, the LBing is getting far too easy to cope with. The anger and bitterness grows and festers. If something doesn't give I will burn down OMs house and hurt all 3 OMs, or worse. Almost went crazy on OM #1 the other day. If 19 year old son hadn't been there.......sigh. <p> Can I do the Plan B thing? I do not know and I am scared to death that it will be the end of our marriage. I know that I am a better person than before Plan A. Everything that she told me was a reason for her straying I have changed....but you know what? It never is enough for her. There is always something else. Some little hurt I caused, some little something to give her reason not to commit.<p> I think some people find the freedom they once had or never had to begin with, as is the case for my WS, and they refuse to go back. They cannot give up this new found freedom. The more we allow them to "take" through Plan A, the longer they sit atop the fence and eat their cake. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p> Your W sounds a lot like mine. I pray for you that she is not. But, if she is, I pray that you find the strength to move into Plan B sooner than I. <p> God Bless<p> jd<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</p>

Kev,
This is way too complicated fo rme to be concise here -- The thoughts that poped into my mind are one, like someone else suggested, I don't believe it makes any sense to have her move back w/o a no contact aggreement/letter -- otherwise, IMO, you become big enabler!
Other thought was actually a question, have you begun reading the Dobson book yet?
You seem to be doing really well & her attitude seems to be softening -- I would still focus on you & try to guard or protect your deep feelings for her -- I am convinced she is coming around some, but still has big urge for freedom or independence thing -- which would or should not involve you -- but she really doesn't know & she may be trying to test waters to see how much free time she has left before she really has to make a decesion -- but I emphasize,IMO, she does not really know -- perhaps OB may be having second thoughts.
Dobson talks about letting the tiger out of the cage -- very interesting concept -- one that could help! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Remember, this is not giving up, just different strategy.
Best of luck!
Prayers are with you!
HH
PS -
I just skimmed your post & I went back & noticed on last one that she is telling you to end the pain by giving her a divorce -- do you think she might be saying this because she wants you to fight hard for her attention. DO you sense any remorse on her part.
What if you get onlone & get a sample (free) divorce agreeemnt -- I'm just wondering what would happen if you call her bluff to a degree.
There is a country song that talks about the girl leaving but coming back when she determined she couldn't change the guy -- "she changed direction when she couldn't change me" I think the girl found out that the was never going to be the perfect guy -- your W may be coming to similar conclusion? I know this sounds dramatic -- just an idea the think about -- To try and shack things up and take her out of what seems a dominating roll here -- I mean it seems you are making all the proposed changes & she needs to doing nothing? Even if you were the worst person alive in the relationship, I don't think you can take all the repsonsibility for what ever went wrong. I know you've talked about her parts, just don't loose sight of her wrong doing in all this -- she should show some remorse --otherwise I think she is wondering why you would be so forgiving? She may want more of a challenge in a relationship -- the OB is pulling back, showing independence, this can be a motivation for her to pursue -- think about ways you can show some independence yourself -- She knows you'll always be there for her, perhaps that is some of the problem? (I know, cause I'm always the softy & the pursurer & I know for a fact my W took me for granted!) [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Dobson's book describes this demension much better than I can! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

HH- YES!!! I'm reading Dobson. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm only about 1/3 through because I didn't get much reading done this weekend.<p>To answer one of your questions, no she has shown no remorse for the A (and said as much). She DOES show remorse for hurting me, and for the possibility of "splitting up our stuff and leaving the house."<p>Over all, I'm feeling compelled to move to plan B. Not that that's a particularly bad thing. I feel as if God has spoken to that effect, folks here on MB have suggested it several times, the Dobson book and MB principles suggest it and I understand and agree with their premises, I've lived this sort of thing before (although on a WAY lesser scale), and that's what it took. Problem is, I think I'm there intellectually, but not emotionally. I think that Plan B is the right thing to do, but I have doubts. Is it too soon? D-day was only Oct. 8, the PA only since Labor Day. My behavior prior to Plan A was essentially Plan B for the last year. Financially, it makes more sense to do it after the first of the year for me. I had always envisioned it happening after then. WS has a session with Steve on 12/4, I have one on 12/7. WS has just called a 2-3 week "truce" with OB.....My heart says to wait, but my brain says ASAP.<p>I won't even consider calling her "bluff" about the divorce thing right now. That's one Pink Elephant I'd just as soon leave out of the room. She's already talking about having "gone too far," "just too much to recover," etc... I fear any sort of move in that direction from me might just add to that fire. I could be WAY off base, but that's just how I feel.<p>Thanks all, I'll continue to need your support in the coming weeks.<p>Kev

Kev,
Uh she went from OB being her next H to giving it a break for 3 weeks to see (at HIS request) if he is what she wants.
Step back a minute, think where you were a month ago.
She seems to be having second thoughts about HIM. She teases you with moving back in, questions you about your changes being lasting,she visits frequently, her parents are there.
I think he is not as attractive as he was last month.
At first I thought good let her move back in cuz OB wont like that, big LB on her part. But now I think maybe others are right, not without no contact promise.
Also, him being so young, he may like being with "married - older woman" it may be more attractive for her to live with you cuz some of the pressure for real married life will be off him.
I dont know.
I think you should avoid the subject of her moving back, that way no need to ask about motivation.
You are doing great.
Think of a time for planB, dont tell her, set it in your mind, then stick with it.
Intrested to hear how conseling sessions went.
Dont give up,come here to recharge.

Hey Kev
I was just in Omaha for my bro's wedding over the T-day weekend. Scenic little town. Love the spots in the market area. I'm originally from the midwest and it was nice to get away from SoCal
for awhile(sorry about the stunning Nebraska defeat, though)<p>But I digress, sorry<p>Listen, dude, I've been lurking and following your story for awhile now, and I think there are some things that are imperative to do.<p>1.)This will be tough, but just STOP even discussing the relationship with her, or anything remotely having to do with it. I know exactly where you are now, having been there with long term girlfriends, and after awhile the panic and desperation just gets crazy. Wanna know your best bet? I mean it, start a plan B and begin to live for yourself. Be happy and have fun. If she goes back to dip****, then start dating someone else. When you talk to her about stuff, make it light and cheery and don't glom on to her.
Keep your pain away from her. I've read your other posts and she is telling you in no uncertain terms that she doesn't care. You don't need that crap. The end result will be a happier Kevco, with or without W. And a happy Kevco is the BEST AMMUNITION for a reunion.<p>2.)The 19 yo dip**** will never, ever, ever in a million years last any longer than a few months.
Even if it does, it is so doomed. Think back to when you were 19. How long was your attention span? One hot little 21 year old chick is gonna make your W look like Bette Davis in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane. This is not a slam on her, it is good news for YOU.<p>So, we have 99.9% chance of their relationship going to **** and a happy Kevco in the works. I give it zix months before she comes back to you.
And if she doesn't, b y that time you will be knee deep in something better.<p>I hope you don't think I'm being a [censored]. But I've gone through this several times. Cheerfully letting her go is the best way to get her back. And really, dude, do you want to live in excruciating pain?<p>I'll be checking in on ya, bro.

Kev,
I'm a little late weighing in on this, but just in case it comes up again, I wanted to tell you that my experience is that I regret not requiring a signed MRA from SAA before allowing my WS to move back in. I think there needs to be a specific plan that you both agree to work on. My WS agreed to do "anything", so I thought we could work out the specific details as we went along--WRONG! He quickly reneged on that promise after he got in the door and back into my bed.<p>I had no intention to plan A. My choice was to work WITH him to build a NEW marriage that would be satisfying for BOTH of us. I had no intention of sacrificing my needs any longer (been doing that for most of the M!), but it soon became clear that H wanted the old M back to the time when I met all his needs and he met none or very little of mine. I didn't sign on for this, yet here I am. Just as I didn't sign on for an adulterous M, but here I am.<p>My boundaries are becoming clearer and clearer to me, and as they do, I keep H informed as per Radical Honesty, but I really wish I had done all this homework prior to allowing him back into my life. I already look back on the last 2-1/2 months as a waste of my time. I don't want to look back a year or two from now and feel the same way about that much more intervening time.<p>So I think it will help if you first know exactly what you want and what you will and will not sacrifice to get it before any negotiating with your W. I agree with no more relationship talk unless she initiates it.<p>My perception is that OB has something else in the works. I find it very difficult to believe that a 19yo male would voluntarily give up sure, freely available sex for 3 weeks unless he had a good chance for it elsewhere, no matter how "mature" he may be. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]