I don't t think he can see how much he hurts me emotionally. I've tried to explain my EN's to him, and he gets it... for a few days, then WHAMMO! He's back to where we were prior to his A's!<p>Here's what happened tonight that put me over the edge:<p>He has an old email account that was for free, and now they are charging users. Obviously, with so many free emailers available, we weren't about to pay for that one. Even better to me, is the fact that that address is where all of the other women would correspond with H. So, without paying, then there's no need to worry about continued contact by the OW.<p>Our email/internet service is going through some changeovers, and H was getting it all set up on the pc when he tried his old email addy to see if it would pick up any emails. It did. He was surprised that it was still 'up and running' (as he put it). Me too! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The only person he would regularly receive emails from was one of the women he dated a few times (nothing physical ever happened). She would regularly send him jokes. It appeared that H was on her group mailing list.<p>I've always had a problem with that. I do not want to have ANY reminders of that time in our lives. It was 4 months of pure HELL!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I had asked him to email her asking to remove him from her address list. But he wouldn't. He's a classic 'avoider'. So when the word came that that account would be gone.. I was happy that getting those jokes wouldn't be an issue for me (and our M - my choice, I know) anymore.<p>Well... H claims he was 'testing' me to see if I would snoop into his email. There was an email sent to her giving his new address!!! H CLAIMS that he didn't really send it... that that account can receive but not send emails, and he just put it in his 'sent' files to see if I reacted to it in anyway.<p>I reacted to it alright. I LB'd all over the place! I was (and am still) pissed off!! How DARE he play mind games with me like that. That is so inconsiderate and downright RUDE!!!<p>You know what I did (upon H's suggestion actually).. I tested that account to see if it does send out emails. YUP!!! It sure does! That made me even more mad. So then I asked H for his approval to email this chiquita to request that she remove him from her email list. He said that was fine. So I did it. <p>Of course, she is taking it as a threat of sorts, and has requested that I not send her any more emails (that will depend on whether or not my husband gets anymore from her).<p>H just doesn't get how much this has hurt me. I was ready to call the cable company and get our internet disconnected first thing tomorrow morning. Oh! When the threat of the web is hanging, he's ready to talk! HUMPH!!!<p>I didn't care, and I've given him some ultimatums. I am NOT dealing with this crap anymore. If I so much as see ONE MORE THING along the lines of any of the OW.. he's out. I've had it. I hate living my life worrying that he is telling me the truth and being faithful.<p>It's bad enough in recovery once you start to deal with the REAL issues of the M breakdown.. but when crap from the A time shows up out of the blue... AUGH!!! It's a real kicker!<p>Thanks for listening (? lol) to my venting. I don't feel any better unfortunately. Usually this helps me to calm down. But it's not working tonight. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Hi Karen. Just got your vent. Glad you could get it out.<p>You have come too far in recovery to kick your H out over something as little as this!!! I know you know that, but I thought it needed to be said.<p>You are right, it is unfair for your H to play mind games with you. His attitude and behavior just plain sucks.<p>However, LBing, threatening, and making ultimatums will not make things better for the two of you.<p>Any chance of calling a time-out and coming up with a plan later on how to deal with this?<p>Obviously this thing with the OW has got to go, whatever plan you two come up with will need to deal with this aspect first and foremost. <p>Your H probably has no clue how much this hurt you. Seriously, to him, if nothing is going on and he's not fooling around, if his heart is with you and in recovery, he probably has no concept of why you need these extraordinary precautions.<p>I'm sure you've told him a zillion times, but until it clicks...<p>Sorry for your pain tonight Karen. Just try to do something to calm yourself down. Your H has not broken any major recovery rules, you are still doing well overall.<p>Just one more little hurdle. When you are calm and can talk to your H, I'm sure you'll come up with a plan that you both can live with. (Then just make sure your conflict avoider goes through with it)!!<p><<<<<<Karen>>>>>
HbH

T25,<p>I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest or anything, but a couple of things just don't make sense to me. <p>Once upon a time (actually back in high school- not ALL that long ago really), my mother didn't like the girl I was dating and was trying to figure stuff out. I had started to keep a journal (well, probably more like a scoresheet) outlining the "bases" that I was getting to....I KNOW, I KNOW, HOW JUVENILE...I was only probably 17 or so. Anyway, my mom found it and confronted me with it. I came up with what I thought was an original and briliant lie on the spot. I told her that I was testing her to see if she was going to snoop through my stuff.<p>This sounds STRIKINGLY similar to what your H told you after being busted w/ the email. PLUS, what's with him lying to say that the account can't SEND, when in FACT IT CAN. <p>Sorry to say this, but I think he's lying to you. Now, I'm WAAAAAAY on the outside looking in, but that's the feeling I get.<p>I REALLY don't intend to upset you even more tonight, but I really thought you might want to consider this possibility.<p>Take care, and I TRULY hope your recovery continues!<p>Kev

Hi T,<p>I'm so sorry, Topie. Your husband isn't getting it, is he? You know, I was re-reading the Post - "Reasons for Affairs", and your situation came to mind. I bolded where I thought it applied to you and H.<p>I think what you're doing is the right thing. But I think in your frustration you are understandably weakening to LBing. Your H isn't going to end his behavior until he is ready to do so. And I honestly don't know what will cause him to finally "GET IT".<p>I really feel terrible for you, with all you've been thru. I'll pray for you and H this evening. Do you have any Plan A left in you, Hon?<p>
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We have a choice; we can either join our partners on that journey to meet their needs (if they will let us) or watch to see HOW they get it met in the future. And to underline and put in capital letters, THIS ISN&#8217;T JUST THE BETRAYER I&#8217;M TALKING ABOUT HERE!<p>The betrayer HAS to understand this as much as the betrayed. Look down Maslow&#8217;s list again. What of the BETRAYED&#8217;S needs? The need for safety (oh yeah unprotected sex is VERY safe isn&#8217;t it?) of affection, affiliation and belonging (where was all that when they were off elsewhere?) of self-esteem, competence, recognition and reputation? <p>What we are doing in recovery is DEMANDING that THEY meet our needs. We are doing it the right way, we are respectfully explaining what our needs are, and communicating to them what our expectation is. We all agree that we have the right to do that. In this way we all agree on the unmet needs idea that in a relationship there ARE some needs that are JOINT responsibility. Surely then we must allow them to have some too?<p>A healthy individual is able to meet their needs in a healthy way. They are self-sufficient and are self-aware. But we are social animals too, and we have a need to belong. It is a balancing act between what we can do for ourselves and what we can invite another to do for us. A healthy couple can say &#8220;I love you, I want you, but I don&#8217;t need you&#8221; what we are saying is &#8220;I want to share my life with you, but I&#8217;m not going to fall apart and die without you. I can get my needs met elsewhere, I have a preference it&#8217;s with you.&#8221;<p>By starting to understand what those needs are, and how we would like them met, and lovingly meeting them, we are building a relationship to rejoice in. Again.
**************************************************<p>Best to you, Topie.<p>Love,
Jo

Thanks HbH. You're right. It is a little thing. But the problem (for me) is that it's a final straw kind of thing for me.<p>I'm still having issues over my EN's being met. I've explained it to H, we've come up with plans (mostly HIS ideas actually - which is fine by me).. then it's not followed through with.<p>He asked me tonight what it is I want him to do (HE suggested packing up his things - I know that's a fear he has a hard time getting over... after all, I did it before, I could do it again). I told him, quite honestly, "I don't know"....<p>I don't know if I'm going to disconnect the internet tomorrow or the next day
I don't know if I want him to pack his things and go
I don't know what he can do to make it up to me (not that he's asked that specifically). Okay, that's not true.. I DO know what he can do. He can start filling my EN's and appologize for emailing OW! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just like an affair is not the reason for a M breaking up, just the chosen cause of the marital environment... my reactions to this email is based on a lot of things that have been depleting my love bank for many weeks (and months) now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (just this past week alone, H has gotten together with his buddy friend 4 times!!! Wed, Thurs, Fri, and today!!! H just doesn't get it that every time his friend shows up and they get together, he's withdrawing from my love bank [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Hopefully I will have calmed down enough by tomorrow so that he and I can talk this whole thing out. It sure doesn't help that I'm PMSing now either! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

kevco: you're right on the money. I don't believe him either. S.O.B.!!! I'm just so darn tired of all of his lies! I even told him tonight, that it's hard for me to believe he's been telling the truth for the past 5 months, because he's been caught by me in lies for our entire relationship! Sorry about the "!!!!'s" (lol)... I'm just still ticked off! augh!<p>Resilient: Thank you for the excerpts. I'll admit, I've read them, and although they make sense, my anger tonight isn't allowing them to sink in. I guess I"ll be bookmarking this thread! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Hi Karen. Yeah, I hear you. Take a step back for a second.<p>What exactly is your boundary? Is it any/way/shape/form of contact with OW, or are there certain exceptions to this?<p>It sounds like you don't have a clear boundary and as such when your H does things that "almost" cross over, you don't know what to do about it.<p>To me, it doesn't seem like your H has crossed that boundary. Has he gotten too close for comfort? Yes, but not crossed. If you agree, then you need to step back, assess the damage, figure out a plan, and stick to it.<p>It sounds like your H does okay with 3 out of 4 of these things, it's the following through that he is having issues with. These are his issues, not yours. Yes, they affect you, but ultimately the changes reside in him and to pester or nag him about it will only brood resentment.<p>All you can do is tell your H how his actions make you feel. "H, you did not hug me or kiss me today and it made me feel very sad inside". "H, this email thing hurts me and I would like very much for you to put a stop to it - your way".<p>As an aside, is your H willing to think of some ways he can "remember" to meet your needs? It's his responsibility, but there's nothing that says you can't help him come up with his own plan on accomplishing this.<p>One more question. Is it possible your H is meeting some of your needs, perhaps he is trying, just not doing a very good job at it? I don't think this is deliberate on his part. Do you think your PMS may make you more sensitive or needy to having your EN's met, or perhaps the holidays? Is he really doing that bad a job? Is it possible your H may be trying to meet your needs HIS way, and you are getting mad because it is not your way or the way you would like them to be met? Just something to think about, lots of people do this, btw...<p>Just don't make any major decisions while you are upset. Don't disconnect the internet, don't kick H out. Let it all cool off, THEN if you decide to do those things - more power to you, it will be the right decision at that time.<p>Are you going to counseling? A 3rd party would really help to get these points across to your H. You educating him won't really do much good...<p>HbH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:
>>What exactly is your boundary? Is it any/way/shape/form of contact with OW, or are there certain exceptions to this?<p>I refuse to deal with any more contact on his part. I don't feel he understood that message, so he's had his final 'warning'. That is my boundary. Our recent separation isn't really the first. These A's of his aren't the first I've dealt with either. The first during our M, yes, but not during our relationship. My patience has worn to it's last thread.<p>>> These are his issues, not yours. Yes, they affect you, but ultimately the changes reside in him and to pester or nag him about it will only brood resentment.<p>I thought this particular issue with the joke emails was a dead issue. That's what's thrown me for such a loop I think.<p>>> All you can do is tell your H how his actions make you feel. <p>I do that. I've tried the plan A approach (especially with regards to his guy friend and domestic support, and it hasn't worked... so I've moved to a more demanding position).<p>>> As an aside, is your H willing to think of some ways he can "remember" to meet your needs? It's his responsibility, but there's nothing that says you can't help him come up with his own plan on accomplishing this.<p>That'd be great. His idea of 'remembering' is for me to remind him. We're caught in a catch22 with that one. I remind him. He forgets. I remind him again. He forgets. I remind him again, now I"m nagging although I've followed through with HIS suggestion.<p>>> One more question. Is it possible your H is meeting some of your needs, perhaps he is trying, just not doing a very good job at it?<p>Our only mutual high EN is SF. That's been on the down side these past couple of weeks due to my tubal ligation (ironic, isn't it? LOL). So neither of us are getting help there. My other huge EN is domestic support. Sitting on his butt playing a computer game or watching a movie or helping his 'buddy' with finding a job, etc... well, that's not even trying IMO. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He did SO AWESOME in the days following my surgery on the 14th. He did EVERYTHING around here.. and a good job at it too! I complemented him when I could (I spent a lot of time in bed), and actually felt bad that I wasn't physically able to help much. But once I could, I did. We hit a fabulous point (IMO), and then once I was able to do it all, he stopped. We're back to the 'old days' of our M.

>> Just don't make any major decisions while you are upset.<p>Yup.. one of the cornerstone rules (although unwritten to the best of my memory) here at MB.<p>>> Are you going to counseling? <p>No. And we desperately need to. H has agreed to it. It's a money issue (par for the course for many of us on here.. sigh!). I'll have to talk to H some more about our budgeting, and see how we can fit it in.<p>Thanks for all of your insights HbH. It's just common sense, and that's a very good thing to be reminded of when we're seeing 'red'. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Just one more thought. Your H's way of remembering, to have YOU remind him will not work. It has to stop. You need to say no, you won't do it anymore, it is his responsibility, you're not going to nag him anymore.<p>You're taking too much responsibility for his stuff and he's letting you. Your H won't learn to meet your needs if he is always waiting for you to remind him. <p>You see, as long as your H does what you say you need (when you say you need it), then he thinks he's doing his job. Hey, my wife didn't tell me to do anything today, so I must be doing a good job (as you say conflict avoider). He's REacting instead of PROacting.<p>Now, if you helped HIM put a plan in place to remember (on his own) to meet your EN's, that would be more effective. He makes a to-do list everyday, he has an automated email pop-up, he has an alarm, posts a list somewhere, I don't know, these are just some suggestions, maybe he will have something better.<p>Will he still screw up? You bet, but your job is just to tell him how his screw up made you feel and how when he does remember, it makes you feel awesome. <p>I know that sounds good in theory, I hope something like that could work for you. I think it is what a counselor would recommend for you... I'm dealing with alot of this stuff in my counseling session (my H tries to give me too much power over his stuff - and I take it thinking I'm helping - I'm not).<p>Counseling is very expensive, I am sorry you are having difficulties here... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am not sure if that helped at all, but it's something to try anyway. That's assuming H fixes the email thing and you let him stay in the house! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck. Let us know how you make out. (BTW, glad to hear your surgery went okay and your H helped out when you really needed it).<p>Kim