So since we have been "working" on the marriage since mid-July, after all the goods were out there it has felt much different than it does today, or for the last five days. I don't have my hopes up, let me start by saying that, but AM looking for a pattern perhaps, or a spark.<p>Tuesday, we got into a bit of a tiff. Don't even remember specifically about what except she became upset and started asking lots of questions about my A and how I could do that to her. She mentioned how if I had been honest earlier about it she might be able to forgive, but trust is so utterly broken she doesn't see how to go on. She ended it by saying that she's going to file and doesn't mean to sound mean, but she just doesn't love me anymore. This hurts my friends...deeply. I told her I understood, but still believed things could change. I got pretty emotional and wept, she left the room, but felt bad and returned, laying on the floor next to my bed and telling me that she would stay longer and keep trying. <p>Wednesday, I felt myself slipping into depression. Crying a lot. She called me at work a couple times, offering to make dinner. She was pleasant and upbeat, different than I have seen her since this all started. Dinner was good, we talked, I cried, she cried, told me she didn't want to hurt me and does care about me, but she felt desperate and like things aren't getting better and didn't know what to do. We watched a movie together, not sitting together, just in the same room.<p>Thursday (Thanksgiving)
She remained upbeat and I dare say "cheery". Talking, laughing, trying to cheer me up. I desperately needed it. We had a brunch at a nearby hotel, very shi shi, and talked. It felt very good. We then went and saw a double feature, had a good time. She genuinely seemed concerned about my mood and wanting me to feel better. There was NO Physical contact, let me make that clear. <p>Friday...
More of the same, we slept late, not together, visited a friend in the city, saw another movie. More laughing and general fun.<p>Saturday...
We sat around all day long...she read a book, I watched TV...but still the mood was different, better, its hard to explain, but we talked that night. I tried to understand a bit more about her intentions....she said she felt better because she had aired some things out that she needed to say in our Tuesday tiff. She did say she was thinking very seriously of filing, but hasn't done anything, doesn't have a plan. Still doesn't know if she wants to go back to marriage counselor though...<p>Sunday...
Pretty good day, and this also capped it all off.
Just before I left for Sunday evening service, she was telling me how much I favored my grandfather, kinda laughing. I got up to leave and she asked me why I love her so much now, why the love I feel for her was different. I tried my best to explain, words can't really do it justice, I got sort of choked up and before I left, she asked me if I wanted a HUG!!! Now before you think what an idiot I am, this is the first contact, she's initiated since September 11th. It was a long hug, it felt amazing, I have forgotten how great it is to hug her, I missed her all the more.<p>So there you go...given this information, what do you guys think? Is it a change that she is going through? Maybe realizing she needs to work harder on this, or could it be she is just feeling sorry for me because I have been sad? Could this be her seeing the sadness and the need and realizing that I am sincere? All questions I ask myself...

My opinion? You are SO in. She absolutley cares.
Now is the time for subtle little acts of affection. Get her a card and tell her she made you feel so much better over the holiday, and that meant alot to you. Tell her all you need is her. <p>Be honest and open about your A, and when things get tough about it, tell her you made the biggest mistake of your life. <p>But honestly, from what you have indicated, you've got plenty to hope for. I think you are in for a full recovery.

MH,
I believe these could be good signs.... maybe she got some things off her chest Tuesday. But I have to also say that I thought my H was being very friendly right before he handed me D papers to sign - and ever since, actually. Because he felt he was making a decision, and felt relieved. hmmmm... I certainly don't mean to dash your good hopes.<p>Keep plan A'ing. I'd like to caution you that talking about "us" is really usually an LB, and should be avoided, except for maybe once a week, in a non-LB way.<p>This is a very stressful time for you. Remember to do some things for yourself. Plan A is about you - making changes in yourself, to become the best you you can be. <p>Your crying concerns me as well. This IS a very stressful time - and crying WILL be a necessary emotional release - but I wonder if you should try some anti-d's. Have you thought of that? I resisted for a long time, and finally "gave in", and I'm so glad I did. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Whether or not these are indeed good signs from CH, stepping up Plan A will benefit you both. <p>I'm so happy for your hug [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . They are wonderful things, aren't they? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there... keep reading and praying [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Give CH over to God... give your marriage over to Him.... you're doing a great job! Keep it up!

Thank you Eazy and Faith...
I know there is still a long way to go. Signs of hope can certainly come in strange packages and I know they cannot be confused with "getting your hopes up", I have learned that lesson and definately am not there. <p>Someone else mentioned the idea that getting things off her chest in a way that she knows I understand can sometimes cause something to break. I pray that may be the case here. Trust is something that is so precious and so important, and I am working so hard to rebuild that. <p>Faith, thank you for the words of caution...you have not burst my bubble, so to speak. I am not going into this with rose-colored glasses. She can and very well might still serve me papers, but I have nothing to lose at this point. If she's going to, she's going to, I love her and will not stop doing the right thing to help her understand this.<p>One question though, about our marriage counselor.
She has told me she doesn't want to go to him anymore. She says by the very nature, its his job to help repair the M, something she doesn't want to do. She thinks he's great and likes him very much, but says she feels like he discounts her feelings and she feels ganged up on there. I certainly don't want that. I haven't felt that he has done this, but how do I get her to at least go and talk to him about that? Or maybe this is just something that she has to decide on her own. I don't know, but its difficult to really get into some of the deeper stuff with a MC when she says she no longer wants to go.
Advice...remarks?

I hope you get some more thoughts here, but off the top of my head, you might suggest that you each go individually once or twice.... that really helped my H open up and feel less "ganged up on" when we were going. Encourage your W at that time to talk to the counselor about anything - openly and honestly - about the counselor, you, her, the past - whatever. I think it's typical for the WS to feel "judged" or "ganged up on" in counseling. Really good counselors should be able to overcome that a bit, I would think [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] .

This is what I thought too...
I suppose the trick now is getting her to go back to him alone. I totally want her to. Perhaps if I present it in a way that she understands I just want her to feel better, that really its about her and not me she might understand. I think she believes that its all about what I want, but really that is not the case. It seems like any attempts I make, she interprets it as it being about me. Past experience is a hard thing to shake.

I had a special comment to you for your reply to my message:<p>Hey, Missing her, it was very nice to see your reply, even though you made me cry. My H printed me out some articles from this site a while back, and I do believe he is trying. I do believe that your W is like me, she is feeling, but not showing. My H thinks my life is grand, I'm making it without him, I seem to be moving on, but behind closed doors, I'm here on marriagebuilders.com, crying, depressed, missing my husband, and wishing I could stop being stubborn, and fearful. <p>I feel that this routine (up and down) is how it's going to be for a while, and I believe that this question about why do you love her so much now will come up again! I have asked my H the same thing, and I get it's different now, and it is hard to explain. To me that is a question that needs to be answered. I want to know why now does he love me so much and not then? Is it because life is so tough now? Is it because the OW just wasn't the one? Why do we seem to be the one NOW? <p>I'm sorry, it seems that I'm giving you a double dose, and really doesn't seem fair. I just want to warn you that it wil most likely come up again. I feel that your in the same boat as my H, you really don't know why. It's odd to find someone on this site that seems to be a lot like my H, but I'm glad you're here, maybe I will learn to understand.

JO, <p>Believe me, I know the question is going to come up again, and again, and again. I wish I could give you some insight into the answers we give too. I have to say I have answered the question the exact same way. I boldly proclaim that its different, that I can't explain exactly why, or when it changed, but it did. That in the midst of what I was doing, God gave me a double dose of reality...it lifted this fog and I could see so clearly all the reasons why I married my wife, the way she smiles, the way she knows every little thing about me. The way she holds my hand or would play with my hair while I drive, the way she always wanted to "spoon" when we first got into bed, but once asleep will sneak over to her side of the bed and grumble just a bit when I crossed over. The way she is able to enourage me when I am down, or hold my hand when I am hurting. The truth is Jojo, its difficult to explain because the things that we took for granted are exactly the little things that are what brought us together in the first place. The fog shadows them, because of the circumstance at the time, its hard to see them...NOW, I know you're saying, but what about a year or two or five down the road, how do I know you won't do this to me again? Right? You're asking this...well, all I can say is that there are no guarantees in anything, any relationship you risk this, but for me, and I'll bet your husband too, going into this marriage working on ourselves and thus working on the things we did to hurt the marriage is why it won't happen again. We are committing to doing everything to make our half of the marriage different, better...if you are doing the same thing, well, in my opinion, that's the NEW contract...not a piece of paper, so you renew your vows, you together go into it fresh...like I said before, you can't have a resurrection unless you are in a graveyard, and guess where you are?<p>I don't know if that answered your question...explaining this to my wife seems more difficult than it has to you. Plus she doesn't believe me, or at least says she doesn't. <p>Please give me some feedback here, I want to know what your thinking?

Are you sure you're not my husband!!!!!!!!!<p>It's great that you had a reality check, and finally realized what you had with your wife. There are things that I realized after all of this happened, but you and my husband had the same exact reply, "there are no guarantees".
I disagree!!!!! There are no guarantees that you will be here tomarrow, or that you won't stop loving your wife in another 6 months, because those are not choices that you've made. Those are thing you have no control over. Feelings change, but there should be a guarantee that you will not cheat again. That is a choice, you either go to bed with someone, or you go home and tell your wife you're not happy anymore, or you don't love her and then move on. I can guarantee you that I wouldn't cheat, it is respect, and respect is taking in to consideration your partner's feelings. Maybe she's not happy either, and you can make a break that leaves that door open for when you decide that you miss all of the little things about her. <p>I can't help to think of the things that you or my husband miss about the OW. There are things that she gave you that your wife was unable to provide, do you miss them now? <p>Do you still think about the OW? <p>How long was your A?

Jojo, you sound so familiar...are YOU sure YOU'RE not my wife?<p>I understand what you are saying, and let me clarify...when I said no guarantees, I didn't mean that we would cheat again. I agree, that is a choice like everything else. I can tell you right now, the emotional pain that I caused on MYSELF, is much harder to bear. What I did to my wife makes me want to crawl into a hole and rot. Much of my remorse truly comes from seeing the depth that I hurt her, the devastation that my A wreaked...and the lies, my did I tell some doosies, sadly. <p>So maybe there are some guarantees...I know I am not going to have another affair, I would rather walk. I guarantee that I am not going to lie to her anymore, but then again, you see the catch 20 here. I can say this, he can say it to you, but you don't believe, not yet at least. The feelings do change, that is guaranteed, I will fall in and out of love with her time and time again, but the commitment will not. IF I thought for a second that it could, or that I would go back to what I was before all this, I wouldn't even be trying. That's how certain I am of my marriage, of my love for my wife.<p>She's posted here too Jojo, you can search ConfusedHeart and read her side of it. Its messy, but might give you a fair view of both sides.<p>Now as for your other questions...
The EA lasted less than 5 mths, the PA twice in a 4 month period..she lived out of state.
I have thought little about the OW. Knowing that the emotions and "feelings" were born out of lies, I have put them aside. When they come up, I am ashamed and once again convicted, so I pray God help me put them in the proper place...it works and now I replace them with good thoughts about a time when my wife and I were meeting each others EN's. A wonderful time. She's a great woman! I also fantasize about my wife, everything from long walks holding hands to sex to talks..everything she doesn't want to give me now, I see it in my head...it motivates me. <p>By the way, the OW didn't give me things my wife couldn't provide...I just lost sight of the things she was doing...she lost sight of me too and I chose, unwisely and selfishly, a remedy to MY pain, thus causing more than I ever imagined in the long run. What I should have been doing is seeking God for my answers, its what your husband should have been doing...a tough lesson, but one I have learned through the pain of being on both sides of the fence.<p>Did you read 1 Samuel 30:8?

Well, I see the only difference here is the length, and involvement of the affair. My husbands affair lasted about a year on and off, and I could only wish that she lived out of state. The fog didn't lift for him until I moved out. She worked with him, and lived right around the corner from me. He feels the same way as you do, and talks about the lessons he has learned, the consequences of his actions, and would love to crawl into a hole and rot. This was part of the reason that he kept leaving, because he felt I would be better off without him, and he couldn't stand himself for what he did, and watching the pain he has put me thru. <p>Hearing almost the same things from you, helps me feel more comfortable about accepting what he has been telling me, or been trying to tell me. It's just hard to accept after all of this. I guess the difficult part is that they had a lot of time together, and knowing places they have gone, and knowing that she is right around the corner. <p>I really do want to move forward, and please know that you have helped me a lot. <p>P.S. I will take a look at ConfusedHeart, and I did read Samuel 30:8.

Thank you too Jojo, <p>You have helped me to understand a little better the things that my wife is going through. Its funny because just last night after church, she started talking about "her gut" telling her that there is something I haven't shared with her about my A. Of course, I have told her everything, but she questions that now. Thinks maybe the A started earlier or that there is more to it. Is this normal also? I will say that when I first came clean, sort of, I was battling with what I knew was right and the fog, so I did lie about contact with OW. Though it was phone converstations, she says this is why she's having a difficult time believing me now. Do you still have that "gut" feeling about the when's and where's of your husbands A? Do you still ask even after all this time?

Well, your not going to like my reply. My gut told me almost everything I needed to know. My husband didn't tell me about his affair, I found out everything on my own. I was in bed one night, and my husband had just left for work (he worked 11-7), I saw something with writing on it in the shredder. I sat there until 4 am pulling all of these shredded pieces of what was a letter from her out. When he came home that morning I confronted him, and of course he lied and told me they only had been talking, and that he only hugged her once. I guess I knew, but it tore me up to just know that he was confiding in another woman. We started counseling, but this was the wrong time the fog wasn't even close to being lifted. He told me she switched shifts, and this seemed to make things a little easier. Somehow I knew, he had told me her name, so I called his job and asked for her, his boss gave me her last name, told me to hang on, and I hung up. The hang up calls got me mad enough to do *69, and redial told me that he had called her. This information I kept to myself, and went thru the telephone book page by page until I found her number, although the name and number didn't match, a nice cop told me where she lived. Now I could watch. I found letters in his pockets which my gut told me to look for, one day I came home from work and called her, her daughter told me that he was coming over, they were going to lunch. Now I knew that he was seeing her again. My husband didn't go that day, he stood her up a lot because his conscious would get the better of him. See my gut is what told me when he was seeing her again, 3 times he went back to her then I got smart, and moved out. All the puzzle pieces fit together, all the lies that he told shed some light onto something else, and made me look to find more lies. If it wasn't for my gut my I wouldn't know most of what I do now. Because of all the lies he told, I thought that everything he told me was a lie, but the OW did fill me in on some of the things he was being truthful about, like that he had broken it off with her every time that he had told me he had. In the end when I moved out, the fog lifted, and he totally ended it after about a month. Now she calls me telling me that he is with her, and in the next sentence telling me he wont return her calls. I know by my gut that he isn't seeing her anymore, and now she is lying so that I won't take him back. I don't know if your wife has ever seen this woman or has talked to her, but I can tell you the pictures I see in my head aren't good. I can see them in bed together, I drive down any road near my old house and am reminded about all the days I drove that same road and how I felt. When I see a Jeep, that is what she drove, I am reminded, songs on the radio remind me of all the feeling I felt during this past year. I would say that I am reminded about 50 times a day about the A. This is why it is brought up over, and over, and over again. For me an hour doesn't go by that I'm not reminded in some way. We try to control it, but then at some point it blows up and we are throwing it in your face again. My H and I never seem to get back on track because at some point I blow. <p>Because my husband isn't specific about the time they spent together, I would make up my own images of what was going on. This was worse than the truth, and I'm sure some of them weren't as bad as I see them. My point is that we were not there, so it is like a TV show, and we see it as a soap opera instead of what it really was. The OW told me that a lot of the time he would not even talk to her, he would just sit there, and she would know and ask him, you are thinking about your wife aren't you? See, in my pictures there was none of that, and if he was thinking of me why didn't he leave, well she said sometimes he did, he would say I shouldn't be here, then he would leave. If you are telling her everything, it may be everything for you but it may not erase the pictures that she has in her head.<p>Now that I have gone on and on, let me know if you have anymore questions.

MH,
I read through just a few of your posts and all I can tell you is you need to look at yourself and your terrible actions. Alot of your posts look as though you are looking for sympathy but if you REALLY want to do the right thing then be HONEST with your wife and be a good person. She is an angel to put up with your A and you need to do your best at being honest with her. I dont mean to be unsympathetic but to do the right thing one must look at the facts and you lied and cheated, so I cant be sympathetic with that no matter what your excuse is. Be a good husband and be honest & loyal to your wife! She deserves that and when you have that everything-else will fall into place. Good luck and god bless you, and most importantly do the right thing because life is tooooooooooooooooo short.

Tom,
The last thing I want from anyone is sympathy...Rather just like anyone else on this site, understanding, direction, and help...Its why you get caught up in the story's of those here. Sympathy, certainly not. I am undeserving and know that. But I am also trying to better understand the intent, the motives and the direction my wife might be going. <p>Jojo, that's why I jump at the opportunity to talk to someone like you. To understand a little better, because my wife doesn't always say things in a way that I understand. Sometimes she thinks I am just supposed to know.<p>Tom, I have looked at myself, I've been weighed, measured and found wanting...I know this more than anyone. I am a miserable person for what I have done, but I will not apologize for what I am striving to become. That's why as a WS I am here...Looking for sympathy certainly doesn't help any of that so I find it interesting that this is how you interpret my quest. Perhaps there is something inside of me that does want someone to see some of how I feel too. If you go through enough hell, anyone probably looks for a kind word or some encouragement...I think this is some of the mood of other posts. <p>Jojo,
I would ask you if your gut has ever been wrong?
Has it ever gotten you into trouble?
Sometimes some of the things her gut tells her are out there. But I know that sometimes when that's all you have you have to go with it.
I'm sorry that is the way you found out about your H's A.
Are you trying to not keep bringing it up? How do you feel after you bring things up? Better? Sad? How does your H react to the questions?

I have to say that my gut has been wrong as far as about when I was going to catch him in the act, but the general information was correct. I may have just been lucky, but most of the time it was dead on. I am not saying that it is the same for everyone. See I even have bad dreams about the A. I often dream about my H with the OW, and be assured that they are not good, or that they were even close to being true. I think that they affect the way my day goes, and how I feel, angry, sad, or just frustrated. <p>Right now it is hard for me. My daughter and I live here alone, and my H live at the old place. This makes it harder to reconcile. He tries, and I ask questions, he gets angry because he feels he has answered them a million times, and that I keep reminding him of the A, then we don't speak only about our daughter for a while, and this just repeats. I really do try not to bring it up, but if something is on your mind all of the time how do you not bring it up? My H used to be there to talk with about the things that bother me, but the thing that bothers me the most, I am not supposed to talk about. I sure do get upset, and sad about bring it up, and I feel like I just push him away, but if he would just stay and be reassuring he would be better off. I guess I need him to put up with this a while, I feel the more reassurance I get from him the less I will think about it.<p>You know, I almost gave up last night, I wasn't coming back to this site again, and was ready to file. I did it, I got up the courage to make a move to work on the marriage. I called my H yesterday morning, and left a message asking him if he wanted to go out for a drink, or get a movie or something, and told him if he wanted to, to call me. After work I heard nothing. So at about 9 I went and got a movie, drove by his house. He was there, and 2 other cars, came back home watched the movie, and still heard nothing. I went back to return the movie, went by his house again, and he wasn't home. I felt very disappointed, and that just showed me that he didn't really want the marriage anymore. I did come home and email him telling him that I was disappointed, and that I guess he didn't want his marriage anymore. That I did love him and miss him, and just how much it took for me to call him yesterday. This morning I got up and checked my email, nothing, and no message. I guess I got even more disappointed. Just as I decided I was done, I found a note on my back door. He came here last night, and said he didn't get my message until late, and he would call me when he got done with work. Well, I guess we will see what happens tonight.<p>Have you ever heard a song by Kenny Lattimore-For you......? If you haven't, check it out. It was my wedding song, and it talks about vows, fidelity, and eternity, my husband wishes he had listened to that song a little better, now it makes him cry.

Well, tonight is already over, and I blew again. He called we started talking a bit, and was he was confused about why I called him, and we were discussing the email I sent him. I asked him when he had talked with her last, and I was wrong about the gut feeling that there was no more contact. He told me he talked with her last week. I blew. He told me there is nothing going on, they just talk on occasion, but he was over there the other day about her satellite dish. I totally lost it. He said I told him I didn't want anything to do with him, which I did, when I get angry, I say thing I don't mean at all, and that why shouldn't he talk with her. I was just so blown away, I love him so much, miss him so much, and really thought that the contact had stopped so that we could continue our lives together. See, I was able to get to this point because he told me before that she would call and he would let the answering machine get it, and wouldn't call her back. He told me he would stop all contact with her if we could work on our marriage, and that he wouldn't lie anymore. He didn't lie about talking with her still, and I really want to believe him. I am so scared. I told him I wanted a divorce, I later did tell him the truth, that I really don't want a divorce. Why did I do this again? I just wanted to hold him, and love him again, but now knowing that there is still contact will it be like before? Has he gone thru the grieving process? Will she keep calling him if he ends it, and will he buckle? I did all of the things I didn't want to do, and I think I pushed him further away, being stubborn, telling him I should have never called him, when I should have told him how I felt before. Talk about lessons learned. I didn't listen before this all happened, and now I blew up like a a** which is not at all what I wanted to do.