"Why did I have to have an A for you to change?"<p>Familiar words to the BS. I've heard them in several incarnations...<p>"Why did I have to do this heinous thing...Why did I have to sin..."<p>I haven't been able to put it into words. I've looked at H helplessly...not knowing...but knowing...couldn't find the words.<p>Why? Your A is NOT why I am changing. Your A changed the environment of our marriage. Your A is a crisis point. People have two choices in a crisis...embrace it or run from it. The big squeeze. Grow or die.<p>I choose to grow. Why did I change? Because I grew...and growth is change.<p>When will you grow WH? When will you meet the crisis head on? When will you take responsibility and move forward...not laterally or run away?<p>Why did I change? Because God required it of me...growth...learning...stretching...strengthening me...<p>When will you change WH? When will you grow...learn...stretch...strengthen?<p>"Why did you have to have an A for me to change?" Kinda says it all doesn't it?

Good thoughts....I am changing to everyday. I feel much stronger than I used to. Amazing how my H. reacts in the old ways. Won't work now tho---BECAUSE I AM CHANGING!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi TA,
Yeah, it's in the tough times that we grow, then in the good times we get to enjoy that growth. We'll get there. You, for one, are a most tenacious MBer! I respect your tenacity, woman! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BTW, how are your lungs? Everything back to normal? Can you even think about having a good holiday season with your kids at this point? Are YOU okay?

Trying - over and over we hear this question in one form or another.<p>In some worse case situations - like mine - the WS refuses to acknowledge changes in the BS. Perhaps the ultimate, and for the BS, the most painful denial.

Hello Trying, I hear it ALL the time. "Look at what I had to do to make you realize how much you loved me and wanted our marriage. Why did I have to fall out of love before this happened? Why did I have to fall in love with SOMEONE ELSE?" Hurts all the time. I, like you, never knew how to answer...now I answer more confidently. I can't change the past or how I didn't make you feel loved. I can only learn from this, improve myself and move forward. I only hope that you can one day walk forward with me."<p>Great thread, TA. Hope things are well.

Here would be a possible comeback to "Why did I have to have an A for you to change"<p>Because I didn't know I NEEDED to change until I found out you were with someone else??? <p>Here's my questions in response to that statement: Did you come to me BEFORE starting your A and say "hey, we need to talk; there's something wrong here, and I'm not happy." NOPE. Did you give me ANY clues that you were unhappy with ANYTHING? NOPE. You just went out, called your old high school SLU* girlfriend, and convinced her that I was the DEVIL FROM HEL*. Then you started a relationship with her, then you said "I don't think I'm in love with you." Then you moved out under the guise that we were going to "start over, being friends first, dating, getting back the love." What you meant to say was "I've got this hot new SOULMATE, SLU* girlfriend who I've told my marriage is over, so we're going to go at it for a while. If I need anything further from you, I'll let you know."<p>Thanks for letting me vent!<p>MOM

Quote from TA --
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> "Why did you have to have an A for me to change?" Kinda says it all doesn't it?
<hr></blockquote><p>I don't really understand this point. You reversed the statement. <p>I'm a WS who has had that sentiment. And I am not in the category of WS's who did not voice their unhappiness -- I did. Many times.<p>In counseling with Steve, I am a giver who simply gave up on my BS. It took years. I did not think he would ever change. I found a way to get my needs met without him. Yes, it was a bad way to do it. But it evolved into more and more dangerous territory slowly. As I got closer to making that decision, my taker came out and gave me a million ways to justify what I was doing.<p>It makes me ANGRY that it took this to make him change. It makes me ANGRY that simply asking or begging wasn't enough. It makes me ANGRY that making me happy wasn't important until I made him unhappy.<p>So perhaps your WS also feels some of this anger. Perhaps they also feel that you're not changing for the right reasons. Now you're changing out of fear that you'll lose me -- guess what, you lost me long ago. <p>So the question remains....why does my having an A make you change?

Ok, you know that your H's needs were not being filled 100% at the time of the affair. You also know that your needs were not being filled 100% of the time.<p>I believe that the response to this question of his could be.. why did you have to have an affair before you took our relationship seriously enough to really tell me what you needed?<p>There are two sides to ever coin, story, etc.<p>Z

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zorweb:
[QB<p>I believe that the response to this question of his could be.. why did you have to have an affair before you took our relationship seriously enough to really tell me what you needed?<p>There are two sides to ever coin, story, etc.<p>Z[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p> When I asked my H why he never told me (or gave me any clues at all!) that he was unhappy prior to starting an affair he said "Because I didn't want you to know. I hate conflict." The problems we had could have been easily solved WITHOUT an affair if he'd been willing to make those little waves. But in his quest to avoid making afew little waves, he unleashed a Tsunami that nearly wiped out the whole coastline lol.

What a thread. Good, because it opens discussion, bad because it brings bad memories. <p>I had an interesting response to my husband getting me a necklace during my EA and a bit before discovery. My husband has not been good about giving gifts (he wouldn't get me anything) in our relationship for my birthday, Christmas or our anniversary, let alone for "just because...".<p>I told him how many times it hurt me for him not to get me anything, even a card on those occasions and he still could not bring himself to change in that area (not to mention other things about other things I had brought up). <p>So, there I was in the middle of my EA, and he, out of the blue gets me a necklace, "just because." It still brings tears to my eyes. My response was, why now? Why couldn't he gotten me something all those other times on special occasions in our 11 years of marriage or even just because gifts? It was horrible. <p>Very, very painful to remember. 1) Because of my affair and 2) because he didn't hear me until I was just about gone...<p>This in no ways excuses my behavior to have an affair. I was very, very wrong and should have just left the marriage instead of getting involved like that. <p>Sorry for the ramble and thanks for the post.

I just wanted to chime in here. This is a legitmate question WS's ask, although it may appear as just a way of justifying their actions.<p>IMO, if a WS has expressed their unhappiness and the need for some changes in the marriage time after time (as in Lexxxy's case) only to have it fall on deaf ears, any changes made post d-day may appear to be just an attempt by the BS's to win their WS back and may seems contrived, so I can understand their argument.<p>In my case, my W never told me or gave me any indication she was unhappy until a conversation we had about a year ago. There was no decline in our sex life or the time we spent together or the amount of conversation we shared up until that point. After that conversation, I immediately began working on the necessary changes (even went to a shrink for help). I didn't find out about her EA until 5 months later, and realize now that she may have been involved with him all along.<p>The point I'm trying to make (and not doing a good job of it) is that if your WS tried to tell you they were unhappy or changes were necessary pre-A, than as a BS you've got to work that much harder to prove those changes are real and sincere and as much for you as for anyone else. On the other hand, for the WS's who never told your BS's you were unhappy or there were problems before the A, you never really gave them a chance to do anything about it. <p>sad dad

When my WS asked me this ( worded a little differently; she still hasn't admitted affair..)
I thought it was valid.<p>At the end of the day, the efforts I'm putting forth now would likely have kept my marriage together if done earlier.<p>So why now? I'm not sure. To me, I was ALWAYS loving and giving throughout.<p>When we went to MC, one of her first comments was to get things " in balance"..re giving and taking.<p>So before, I guess I would do the same things over and over ( loving and giving), but with more intensity, frequency, etc.<p>Didn't work.<p>I will say that my WS would tell me she was unhappy every now and then. When I would try to talk about it, she would say that she " hates these kinds of talks, I just want peace."<p>She sang that like a mantra.<p>You keep on trying to have " these types of talks. I keep telling you I hate it"..<p>Meantime I'm doing the I love you dance. <p>Had NO effect.<p>Then comes the hateful, mean accusations and distance.<p>Affair time. " How can you think that! You're insecure, snooping,so what if I stay out till 3am w him?"<p>etc.<p>And I'm still lovin' and givin'.<p>What was this thread about? But really, when I think back, it relates to an inability to communicate.<p>Which, to me, is really what this thread is about.<p>Dan

My H has said "why didn't you tell me?"<p>He is meaning that I should have somehow even more strongly told him that I was unhappy to the point of leaving him.<p>I'm at a real loss to think of how I could have said more. And why is the responsibility for this 100% on me??? Did I actually have to say to him "honey I'm thinking about sleeping with someone else cuz you won't take the kids to church or buy toothpaste".<p>I did not set out to have an affair. Its something that happened. It evolved slowly and I was in it before I could avoid it. And its very very true that I did not protect against my own weakness -- but at that point I didn't want to. Why did I have to do anymore to protect the marriage? I was the only one who did.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong>My H has said "why didn't you tell me?"<p>He is meaning that I should have somehow even more strongly told him that I was unhappy to the point of leaving him.<p>I'm at a real loss to think of how I could have said more. And why is the responsibility for this 100% on me??? Did I actually have to say to him "honey I'm thinking about sleeping with someone else cuz you won't take the kids to church or buy toothpaste".<p></strong><hr></blockquote>

Some people just don't get a subtle hint, especially men (no offense guys). Sometimes you have to come right out and say it. My friend had to do that with her H. She started out with subtle and it whooshed right over his head. Not his fault, some people just arent' wired to pick that stuff up. Finally she came right out and said "I am unhappy, we have a lot of work to do to change things in this marriage or I am leaving." THEN it was loud and clear. Unfortunately she had already had an affair. She deeply regrets not saying what she meant in the first place. Once she laid her cards on the table they were able to fix things and are very happy.
I myself am pretty perceptive and would have picked up on subtle hints that something was wrong. Unfortunately my H went out of his way to keep his feelings and his depression a secret because he didn't want any conflict. Needless to say that plan backfired.

Its called the Blame Game. An unwillingness to accept the responsibility of their own actions.

BINGO! notheard hits the nail on the head.<p>The C I saw yesterday said..."It has to do with responsibility."<p>"Why did I have to have an A for you to change?" Implies that the A is the cause of the change (not true) and that the WS is not responsible for the A (note the words have to have .<p>I did not change because of the A. I changed because I knew in an instant my part in what made the environment of our marriage/relationship...I knew what I had to do to change that environment. Could he have told me? Sure. But he never did. <p>Lexxxy. Did you sit your H down...as serious as a heart attack...and with radical honesty...specifically tell him how you were unhappy? If so, I am sorry.<p>My H NEVER did. He is a passive/aggressive conflict-avoider. H did not take responsibility for anything in our marriage...he was happy to let me do everything...until he got to be a certain age...then we fought over control...because by then I was afraid...he'd so seldomly 'taken care' of anything...then I gave up and let stuff go...'cause I was tired. Tired of working...tired of the house stuff...tired of the kid stuff...tired of feeling like I was ALONE...then he tells me HE NEVER WANTED TO BE MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE...lights go on....I have struggled for years...doing 'my job' as a wife and wondering why he wouldn't be a 'husband.' Didn't want to be. <p>So I told him that he did no 'noble' thing marrying me 12 years ago because he was afraid of the 'hurt' it would cause me and his family for us to part then...and that he was even more selfish to decide 'he was tired of working' on our marriage after 12 years and 'deserved' to have an affair. Bull****. GROW UP. That's what I have been waiting for my whole marriage. Waiting for my H to decide to be married and grow up.<p>Some of us LEARN and GROW when tough things happen to us...that's why we change...not because of your A...<p>"Why did you have to have an A for me to change?" You didn't. But your A changed the environment of our marriage...and when one thing changes it causes ripples in the fabric of life.... of course I am going to change . <p>Simple Cause and Effect.

I can't help but to chime in on this one. Subtle hints are a great way to start... all for it. Unfortunately most guys are cave men (me included) when it comes to guessing what's wrong or what they should do to fix it. Unless it&#8217;s obvious (like I wrecked a dinner plan) we can just be out right stupid. So we'll execute our normal patch things up routine, hey we're creatures of habit. When we see that's not working and then ask "what's wrong why are you upset (with me)" In my case that question was answered with a cover story, or a I shouldn't have to tell you, If you don&#8217;t know what's the point".<p>Love is not a commitment. It's fleeting and like a roller coaster as it comes and goes. Marriage is a commitment. One of those commitments is to talk with your spouse when there is a problem, openly and honestly. This communication is to preserve what love you have left and to try to correct the problem so that more love could potentially be restored. So sorry, but I'm not buying the subtle hint thing. <p>I'm sure there are exceptions to this scenario. From what I've seen, most WS made very little effort to confide their feelings of falling-out-of-love or their feelings of an attraction to another to their BS. <p>
For what it's worth JMHO,
HI

Wow. So I wonder what the heck my situation means???<p>My H went through a series of depressions. He would be up/down like a rollercoaster (one of the reasons I originally thought he may be bipolar).<p>When he was down, he told me, we would make plans, try things, I would go all out to do whatever I could to help him. His depression would go away, he'd be happy, love me again, then the cycle would start again.<p>Some of those things were changes in me, and I maintained those changes. Then when there was nothing else for me to change, it was material or situational changes. That's probably why we never got anywhere. After a while those things didn't work either.<p>I would ask my H what I needed to do, I was wonderful, great, he was the one that didn't deserve me or the kids. He was horrible.<p>That was before the A. With the A came a whole series of blame-game stuff. I was controlling, manipulative, etc. Stuff I never was before the A, but now apparently I was. He used alot of stuff to try and justify what he did.<p>Now, my H says that I have changed. But I don't see it. I really don't. Yeah, little things, things for me, but not really stuff that affects him. And definately none of the stuff he accuses me of doing that caused his affair. I don't get it. I really don't. I wish I could see the changes he's talking about.<p>I think the changes actually happened INSIDE him, the way he looks at me, he just doesn't get it.<p>Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I guess I don't really understand my situation, except that my H needed to grow up.<p>Also, I wanted to add that sometimes, even if the WS does tell the BS how unhappy they are that the changes need to come from the WS, NOT THE BS. If the WS is dependent on the BS to make their life great and make them happy, then at some point, the BS can no longer do that and all hell breaks loose. The WS needs to learn/know how to make themselves happy.<p>HbH