Hi all,<p>I know by writing this, I am going to offend a lot of you and I expect that this post will be quickly deleted by the moderators, but I have to speak my mind.<p>I came here one day at a low point and started expressing my feelings. I thought that others may offer help, hope and means to make things better. I got a lot of varied responses. It seemed like the most common thread was to read the MB materials, apply them and come here often to tell others of what you are going through.<p>After a few days of this, I came to the concludion that this discussion forum has nothing to do with truly rebuilding marriages. I think largely it is a forum for people to gripe about their issues with their spouses and to voyeuristically view other people's issues. The responses I got to issues seemed to be like mantras that those participating would profess, knowing all along that either they were not applying them to their own lives or they were not working.<p>Please understand that I am not blasting the MB principles, I am talking about what this discussion forum has become.<p>Certainly I know that there are many people out there who are trying to deal with issues in their marriages and infidelity, but I think now that this forum is counter to the goals they are trying to reach.<p>Why do I say this? When I spent the day writing back and forth with people a couple of weeks ago, I first felt welcome and comfort for what I was feeling. After a day of writing, I started to see who kept writing and what they were saying. Those who revealed anything about themselves showed that their marriages were not generally in good order either, some were separated or divorced. I then started thinking about how people with failed marriages can help others be successful. The chances of them being of help are slim at best.<p>I then noticed that there were a few people who were answering the posts. As I looked at their profiles and recent posts, I came to realize that they spent a lot of time here, posting and spouting their opinions. Why aren't they spending this time building quality relationships with their spouses and applying these MB principles which they claim to be the way to build back their relationships? IMHO, I think they do not know how to use them, and they are using this site as a chat room. I recognized, too, that this forum can be a place for people to build relationships with each other, rather than their spouses. I started to wonder if any of the participants here started having affairs with each other.<p>Needless to say, I don't see value in this forum to help rebuild my marriage. For anyone who is new here and looking for answers, I hope you see this forum for what it is and really consider it before you take too much stock in the opinions expressed by the people who post here.<p>For those of you who have been here for some time, think about what you are doing. I believe that some of you are here "helping" others at the expense of your own relationships. Look at how many times you have posted. Is it several? hundreds? THOUSANDS? Are you helping others, or just trying to find ways to rationalize your own predicaments?<p>I have said enough. I am sure that the moderators will delete this, but at least I said my peace. It would be more courageous, though, for you to leave this post and allow others to respond. This will allow participants and those looking for help to decide for themselves whether there is value in this forum. I will be curious to see what happens.<p>Good luck to all of you.<p>NDtW

Wrong wrong wrong NTDW. I came here with my heart in several small pieces on the floor looking to make sense of the emotions displayed by my WS. I recieved some replys in a very short time that were definately marriage savers for me. I am of course still working on my marriage but without the help I received here I am sure I would have left my WS to her own devices inside of a week. Just because you have gotten nothing out of it does not mean it is useless. Perhaps you have your mind made up and don't want to be confused with facts?

NDtW - Your views are welcome, if not muturally agreeable. I suggest that if you find no value here, that you look for value elsewhere.<p>The value I find here may not impress you, nor do I care. But value, like beauty, comfort, information, and happiness, is in the eyes of the beholder.<p>I wish you luck in finding the value you seek - for whatever reason you seek it.

NDTW,<p>I am sorry that you found no help here for your marriage, but many who come here DO find help. I have found help from people in many different stages of recovery [or lack thereof] so I don't think it's rational to reject someone's advice based solely on their relationship status. [what if someone divorced gives you valuable advice? Do you reject it because they are divorced? That makes no sense.] <p>Even so, this is an unprofessional message board and, as such, has never been presented as a source for professional advice. If you didn't like the advice you received simply reject it, ask for a refund, and move on.<p>P.S. And maybe try a little more tolerance in the future?

Hi NDTW im so sorry you feel that way about MB, maybe you are just having a bad day.
I for one come on this board as it gives me great comfort to know im not the only one whose world has been ripped apart by an affair.<p>I dont expect anyone on these boards to have the answers to save my M, but it is a great comfort to be able to come here when im feeeling down.
These people whom ive never met, send hugs etc when they have lots of heartache of there own they spare the time to cheer me up.<p>I have lots of mates who try to do the same but untill you have suffered this fate you cant know what its like.
So to me to be able to get comfort (and give some i hope) from people who know just how you feel is wonderful.<p>Im sorry you dont feel you are getting any help,
but I SAY LONG LIVE MB it helps me loads, it may not save my M but it heals me.
Liz

NDTW, when you find a better forum, let me know because I've yet to come across anything close to the valuable information here at MB. Better yet, when you find the answers to the questions that you seek, please come back and share the same with us, K? <p>Wishing you well on your journey to success....

NDTW,
As someone with THOUSANDS of posts--and I have more that were lost prior to 4/99 MB crash--I'll tell you what I'm still doing here.<p>I post when my H is not home or I'm at work--I own the business, so if I want to sign on to MB when I take a break, that's my preogative. It doesn't take any time away from my marriage or usually my kids either, this Sunday am, my H is at work, one kid is having breakfast with her boyfriend & his family, the other is in the bath.<p>I don't think I have posted to you, I don't read every post even in the 2 forums I read most--that would be excessive.

MB was a key ingredient in saving my sanity and my marriage. The bad times lasted 2+ years. I did an 18 month Plan A--sometimes not as well as I wished to, true. By the time my H wanted the marriage, we were in our 7th separation and I had served him D papers and was on my way to a different life. MB gave me the courage to try this last time--now 19 months of recovery. My family is whole. My H & I are past a lot of the reconciliation turmoil and looking at a good future together.<p>Gee, now how would my posts "rationalize" a successful recovery...or weren't you talking about me...<p>I still post when I think I have something to say to someone. If I hadn't learned anything through this time, THAT would be rather stupid of me. And I am very very very grateful for the support I received. I think being only a taker is rude...so I am giving back. I do understand some people can't stay and help others, it hurts too much. But I can, so I do.<p>Do you follow through with every bit of advice your've ever given? Never had that off moment when you say something to a spouse or loved one that was ill-spoken--a lovebuster? I'm guilty of giving better advice than I have acted-out. So what? It doesn't make the advice wrong. I should just control my own behavior better.<p>I hope my message is...infidelity isn't necessarily the end of the marriage. The A continuing after D day or being lengthy isn't necessarily the end of the marriage. Separation(s) aren't necessarily the end of the marriage. The OP being a co-worker isn't necessarily the end of the marriage. The BS turning WS isn't necessarily the end of the marriage. D papers are not necessarily the end of the marriage.<p>My recovery is taking place "even though" we have all those factors.<p>Do you think those are things that aren't important? Hopeful? to someone who has just discovered an A, or is in one? <p>I have made friends here at MB, we IM, we email, we pray together, we walk each other over the humps that appear in everyone's lives and can seems so ominous to those of us who have had infidelity in our marriages.<p>And I still reach out to newbies or not-so-oldtimer as me.<p>I'm sorry you didn't find what you were looking for, but that doesn't make MB an unhelpful place. God grant you peace.

NDtW...<p>I just found the MB forum the other day. Please see my thread "OW is OM...Help." I am a little surprised at one or two of the responses I received. <p>I had a tough day yesterday (Sat.) My husband went to a holiday party last night without me. <p>There has to be an answer somewhere...out there.

NDtW,<p>Your opinion is welcome and we are happy to see your return.<p>Please understand moderating is not about censorship.<p>We closed threads, deleted posts, etc. the last time you were here to protect you. We wanted you to know the forum is safe for you as you recover your marriage. That IS the moderator's job.<p>If not you, then I will take a moment to thank all of those members, who have their own burden, yet take the time to reply and WELCOME new members like NDtW. For those long-time members with thousands of posts, even more gratitude. As we have seen many times over the years, the kind voice of knowledge and experience can't be heard by some.<p>Best Wishes in your journey NDtW.<p>Magnolia

NDtW: If you feel you aren't receiving what you need from this forum, then of course you can choose not to come here.
I think for the most part you have received some good support and advice.
I try to remember that this is a forum made up of people - people who, for the most part, are hurting a lot. We can only do our best, and sometimes what we say and think doesn't always meet everyone's approval. But, I don't come here to seek approval - I come for the support and the ability to share. I know I'm struggling in my marriage right now, but that doesn't mean I can't offer someone else my own opinions and advice, if they ask for it.
We are not experts on Love and Marriage - obviously, or we wouldn't be posting on the infidelity forum, but we reach out to each other as best we can.
I know that some folks do respond in a judgemental way and to be honest, that does aggravate me, however I choose to move on from those posts and gain whatever benefit I can from others.

I think that when one comes to an open forum and asks for opinions, then it would behoove them to be a little more tolerant of opinions they don't agree with [that's what tolerance is FOR - not for opinions you already approve of, but OPPOSING opinions]. I guess that is the danger of participating on an OPINION forum, you get OPINIONS. But then, that is just my opinion.... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

NDtW,<p>All I can say is that I am really, really sad that you feel that way.<p>Peace.<p>Jacky

NDtW:<p>My marriage is now in recovery - brought back from the brink of divorce, because of the Marriage Builders principles, and the support that I got here during the months that my H was with his OW.<p>I would hope you wouldn't judge those who are separated as having nothing of value to say. I was one of those separated, already filed for divorced people that used to post. I shared my own experience and thoughts with others, and in doing so, got FAR more out of this forum than I would have if I had just lurked.<p>Now I am a "recovered" person posting my experience and thoughts. You are right, because I am building my marriage, I don't have the time to post here that I did when I was separated...but I would hope that my posts are not less valuable before or after recovery...

Sounds like his soulmate "got to him" again.<p>Pity. He sounded so much like he wanted to "do the right thing" for his marriage.<p>L

Ndtw,<p>Well sir, the choices are yours and so are the opinions. This area never claimed to be the save all for all. If and when you find that better place, I hope you have the decency to share it with others. Oh yes, most of us are here because we are having problems in our marrige and others are here because they see the hurt in their friends and families. <p>You are probably referring to myself and others about our 'many' posts. Yes that is true. Posting here is a 2 way street, I have been helped, encouraged and at times even assisted others. For some of us this is the tie that binds until other help is available. That is not anything to be ashamed of. <p>For your information, posting here has helped me. If not for a lot of the thoughts and insight here, my H would probably be out on the street. I have had moral, bibical, ethical and legal reasons to divorce him, yet he is home. Working on what he has come to realize are serious issues that he can not run away from Did he always know this? Yes, but as a major conflict avoider he and others he got to support him (OW), he thought he could blame others for his own downfalls. Now with help (even from here), he is finding that the way to happiness is to work on one's self first. <p>My H was bitter and angry much like yourself. His cries for help were kept within. Unlike you, he has never to my knowledge posted here. Yet he has benefited since he has read some of the posts. <p>Again you have your opinion and I have mine. Free country, yep.....if my posts to you offended you, I apologize. However, when someone comes with the primary purpose to exploit families and promote selfishness, then I would not be able to rest without sending out a warning. I did the best I could under the circumstances. <p>I do caution all to watch their association and for everything I say, I have resolved to do myself. I don't like being a hypocrite nor am I self-righteous. I have been raised with values that include helping one's neighbor if possible and know that I don't always have the best answers. <p>I doubt your thread will be deleted. This is an open forum for support. It is not an open forum for abuse. You may not have been here before but some of us have witnessed OPs come here with the sole intent to hurt. It was painful. Stalking and ugly words, another member has had her tires slashed, another has had the police called on her for no reason, yet another has been visted by the OP, phony child support charges filed, many have been threatened on the phone, in person, in public, via e-mail, etc. The experiences shared and pain endured here is mind boggling. Why do we keep coming back? Because this is a support group, both ways. Even those who appear strong will need help. Support can come from anywhere, even your children. Some WSs think the OP provides support and in some cases that is true but when you weigh it all in the end, that is not good association no matter how you try to color it. <p>You have a right to get upset, understand that so do I. Ndtw, if you are at that point of understanding, then I wish you well on your journey in life. May your family find happiness. <p>L.

Boy...you sure sound a lot like my H when he posted his couple of angry posts...Efftupmylife...<p>I followed your posts...in the beginning I felt you wanted help...then OW followed you here...('ours' did too)....<p>I've posted hundreds of posts under this name and a couple of others...these forums literally saved my life...<p>I, as your wife either is or will be, was TOTALLY devastated by the A my H had...my whole life was a lie...I was inalterably altered...<p>You say you thought you found a forum for rebuilding marriages...but once you didn't get the answers you liked...or you decided the people who posted to you weren't worthy...you start flinging 'blame' and 'justification' our way...<p>I will say that you take things much too personally...that you are making a bunch of assumptions...I would ask if what you wrote is being impeccable in your word...why did you write it? how did it help you? what kind of reactions did you expect? were you just trying to stir us up? As for doing your best always...I have to go with Ruiz on this one...this was your best today...for whatever reason...under whatever circumstances...you are very angry...hurt and are lashing out at an easy target...<p>...and like my H, I will pray for peace for you...peace in your heart and mind...that you find answers to your questions...<p>Life is a journey. Some of us learn and grow. Some of us allow the journey to take over...some of us blame the road and obstacles...You're at a fork in the journey NDtW...which path will you take?

NDtW,<p>I am sorry that you did not find the help you wanted here. But, may I ask you what kind of help was it that you were seeking exactly?<p>I am genuinely curious, because like others, I have found this to be the best source of support on-line, and I searched and searched, read everything on the sites, and then lurked for a long time on various discussion boards before I began to post.<p>I hope you will come back and answer this question, because I am sincerely interested in your reply. Perhaps one of us could direct you to another board or another resource better suited to what you are looking for.<p>For my part, our M is recovering very nicely, thank you very much. And I credit MB and the discussion forums for providing tools to assist in recovery and for the support of the MBers who care enough to reach out to others. Without the members who respond to others and try to offer support and advice, what would a discussion board be? It would be a bunch of individuals who post a thread to vent or ask questions, but without others to respond and give other opinions. How much help is that to anyone?<p>Be careful about casting a net over all the people who come here to share. One cannot possible know these people with a couple of visits to the board. Everyone here has a personality, a point of view, an approach that is unique, even if we do mostly agree with the MB principles. It is only with time that one learns what the personalities are and how the varying points of view can be helpful to rounding out our own feelings and opinions on any particular issue.<p>My H actually sees a lot of value to the forums. He has lurked and posted a couple of times, but is not as avid as I am. The value he sees for me is that the people on this forum supported me when he did not; when he was so Fogged that all he did was do more damage, the MBers helped hold me up. Now that he is a better H than ever, we talk about everything I start a thread about and have discussed the issue before I post a new thread about it. I like to canvas other views that mine and my H's; I think it helps with the 'brainstorming' exercise that Harley recommends in M negotiation; and getting the views of BSs and WSs at various stages of recovery is a good 'reality check' on my own reactions.<p>Well, enough said. I rather expect that you won't take the time to really consider what others have written here. I hope I am wrong.<p>In any event, I do with you well and hope that you find the path to M recovery and along with it personal healing for your W and you.<p>Sincerely,

NDtW,<p>I've been following your posts. There is a whole lot that I could share with you ... however, I feel a sense of reserve. MB is a place that is not for everyone. You have to be open to the concepts of saving the marriage - maybe not all of them, but at least some. Some aspects of MB, e.g., Plan A, did not work for me. Some did, e.g., Plan B. <p>What I found is that one truly has to *want* to make the marriage work, from the very bottom of his/her heart, in order for MB to begin to make any sense. I also know, just from my own standpoint, that one person in the marriage cannot do it alone. It has t be a joint effort. As long as the OW is in your life, as long as there is any contact with her whatsoever, you will not have a true union with your W. <p>That said, perhaps your decision not to come here is for the best in the long-run for both you and your wife. Unfortunately, sometimes an EMR must play itself out until the bitter end in order for any of the parties to achieve peace. I hope and pray that your W is spared what I was not.<p>belld

Sorry we can't help you. MB has been my sanity since dday. My M is recovering well and I credit MB for this. My friends here have helped me very much. I have never talked in person or on phone, to any of these friends here. I know they are here when I need them.<p>I also post when my WH is at work or asleep (works at nite) I spend all my time with him and come here on my time not my H.<p>I feel you did not give us a chance before you started judging us.<p>Hope you find somewhere you can relate too. I like it here and I will stay.<p>
SLH<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: still love him ]</p>

NDtW,
No offense taken, as you can see--many are interested to see if you are doing any better than your screen name implies...<p>*sigh* You are entitled to express your opinions and as you can see, your post was not deleted. I would take that to mean that your opinion is valued here.<p>I also take it from what you said here that your intention in posting was to get something (and not to give)... You said you wanted help, hope and means to make things better. Since it has only been a few days, it makes me wonder if you have followed the advice, have you?<p>If you did, you would have something to contribute to the discussion forum instead of judging those who come to get help, hope, and means to make things better--which was also your original reason for coming here... You're not so alone then, are you? You're not so different from many others then, are you?<p>I always find it interesting when people start a thread to announce they are disenchanted with the forum and they are officially leaving. That has always confused me...?<p>Anyways, if you are wondering if people really care about you, I hope you have taken notice that we obviously do. Whatever you decide, you are and have been in my prayers. Good luck!