beenwishing, you are slightly mistaken, this is not a forum to rebuild any marriage at any cost, the harleys make it quite clear not all marriages are worth saving, only marsha can decide for herself whether to rebuild hers, but the initial question was basically what do people think of this, so I told her what I think. BTW I don't believe in marriage, I believe in people, and if a marriage is not a safe nurturing place it should end. You disagree? I have noticed some people worship marriage as an icon, they apparently care little about the mental health of the participants, or their physical safety, I am opposed to this view of marriage, and feel on occassion suggesting someone should leave a toxic situation as fast as they can is the right advice. In marshas case she is risking death with this man, that is not a trivial circumstance. He lied to her (by ommission at least) re who he was to trick her into marriage, and I doubt very seriously this is his first affair, it is just the first time he got caught. I could mollycoddly and say tsk tsk such a bad luck, maybe you can turn it around if you just pretend it is like any other affair, enough of you did that though....she also needed (as do many in denial) to hear the truth forcefully as well. How many chances do you give someone wishing, before enough is enough? IMO he has exhibited enough bad behviour to be given no more chances at all, he is a self-centered user who wants her only for what she provides him in needs and respectability, and that is my opinion....If she acts on it, she may not only save her life, but end a toxic emotional dependentcy on a picture, a lie, a marriage that does not exist, can heal, and find someone worthy of her love as a mate.

I agree with SNL,<p> It doesn't take a fire and brimstone preacher to point out that AIDS is the real threat to this woman.<p> If he lied about one gay relationship, how many more are possible. What would you say to this womans children or family were she to contact aids and die? "I'm so sorry, but that is the consequences of her decsion to remain with a gay man"?<p> Marsha, RUN, DON'T WALK TO THE NEAREST FACILITY TO BE CHECKED FOR HIV. Then leave this marriage until your H can prove he is aids free, and not taking it up the poop shute.<p> Sorry for the vulgarity. But this is very dangerous stuff.<p> jd

Just had to get in on this one and throw my two cents in (in a very non-LB way! LOL!). <p>HIV/AIDS/STD's are all possible with any sexual contact, be it heterosexual or homosexual. I'm a bit disturbed by reading all the posts from people saying "Oh dear, he's slept with a man. Better get tested for AIDS and walk out on your marriage now". I'm disturbed because I've not seen this advise widely used for anyone else. <p>ANY sexually transmitted disease can come from ANYONE. Gay, Straight, Bi, Sheep, Dog, whatever. Doesn't matter who you shag, if you do it in an unsafe way, you are at risk. I think, personally, it's bit unfair to pull out the Gay Card. Every single person I know (including A LOT of gay men) would never have sexual contact with anyone without protection or without proof of a clean test. It's common sense in any relationship. I mean, we ARE in the 21st century here. HIV/AIDS is NOT just a gay thing. That stigma was lost long ago. <p>And I don't say this to preach to anyone. Just wanted to voice my opinion like everyone else. <p>:)
love,
venus

venus, the point is not that you can get a disease from anyone, maybe even a toilet seat. The point is the risk of aids from male homsexuality is tremendously greater than any other source. Male homosexuals as a population are far more promiscuous (and careless) than any other sexual population...that is simply a fact form the center for disease control statisitics (and every study done on the subject). They are also the carriers of aids in our culture. You CANNOT treat std with homosexual men as you do other populations, it is literally life and death on a significant scale. It is not simply a matter of some low risk of when you will get aids, it is only a matter of when. It is likely that a promiscuous gay male will be exposed to aids withing a 1/2 dozen encounters, maybe contracting it, maybe not, but those kinds of odds have a name...russian roulette (pointing a six-shooter at your head with one bullet, spinning the cylinder and then pulling the trigger). We have been bombarded with the notion orientation does not change, so marsha must accept that this man who violated her by marrying without revealing his sexuality, will stop being attracted to men, and will also stop having affairs (and lieing), personally I don't think this has ever happened in the annals of marital reconcilliation when a homosexual marries a heterosexual.

Wow. I feel like a bit of a peeping tom on Marsha's thread because I can relate so fully to her horrible situation. As I have related before, my H confided to me about his off-on, often anonymous sexual encounters with other men just this past spring. His encounters have been going on for the past 13 years of our 15 years of married life. What a shock. He insists he has been very careful to never jeopardize his/my health, but still! We've done the testing and all is okay, so far. But how to continue? How can one throw away a marriage of so many years with children involved? And all of this is anti-thetical to my religious beliefs. On top of this, my H is otherwise a wonderful man, a great provider, a great father. In reading your responses, fellow MBers, I can't help but feel that sometimes I haven't fully comprehended the magnitude of my situation. And other times I wonder if I shouldn't treat my situation like any other spouse hurt by an affair.<p>At any rate, in dealing with the day-to-day, I have to say thanks for all the advice and thoughts.<p>Asgood.

I'm going to jump on this thread for a minute. Both Venus and SnL have good points ... BUT (you knew there'd be a BUT, eh?) <p>As we all know AIDS/HIV does NOT discriminate ... when your spouse sleeps with an OP they are sleeping with that OP's entire sexual history (a variable TREE of people if you will).<p>Who knows what that possible huge TREE of peoples' sexual orientation, medical history or drug habits are. It doesn't matter if your WS is Bi, Straight, Lesbian or Gay, the WS has played Russian Roulette with their life, and yours. <p>Every single BS should insist the WS get tested once you two have decided to rebuild, regardless of what the WS touts regarding the OP's impeccable sexual integrity.<p>Testing should be at the top of every BS's list for recovery requirements.<p>Off Soapbox.<p>Jo<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Not to be argumentative, but I believe that statistically the population with the largest amount of newly diagnosed cases of HIV is the young adult heterosexual...<p>"Heterosexual transmission accounts for more than 75% of all HIV infections world-wide...UNAIDS estimates that half of all infections to date have been in 15-24 year-olds. In some countries, 60% of all new infections are among 15-24 year-olds, with a female to male ratio of 2 to 1 among 15-19 year-olds". source-HIV & You-AIDS A global epidemic.<p>
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by diddallas:
<strong>Not to be argumentative, but I believe that statistically the population with the largest amount of newly diagnosed cases of HIV is the young adult heterosexual...<p>"Heterosexual transmission accounts for more than 75% of all HIV infections world-wide...UNAIDS estimates that half of all infections to date have been in 15-24 year-olds. In some countries, 60% of all new infections are among 15-24 year-olds, with a female to male ratio of 2 to 1 among 15-19 year-olds". source-HIV & You-AIDS A global epidemic.<p>
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think if you'll look into it, its more like 85% from male homosexuals and 15% heterosexuals in the United States. [those were CDC statistics that we used in my political debate group about 3-4 years ago.] Another statistic is that if you are a non intravenous drug user and a heterosexual, you have a 10 times greater chance of getting hit by lightning than getting HIV {WITHOUT A CONDOM, by the way], whereas if you are a homosexual or an intravenous drug user you have a 200x [hope my memory is accurate here - I will double check this stat] greater chance of getting HIV than the average person. <p>You gave international statistics, which account for different lifestyles and a different "type" of AIDS in numerous countries. Completely different than AIDS statistics in the US.<p>Tomorrow night I will dig into my files and pull some articles on this.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>In marshas case she is risking death with this man, that is not a trivial circumstance. He lied to her (by ommission at least) re who he was to trick her into marriage, and I doubt very seriously this is his first affair,</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SnL,
When you had your affair you were risking your life also. How do you know how many other people your OW slept with before you? He didn't trick me into marriage. Who are you to seriously doubt that my husband hasn't had previous affairs? Did you have previous affairs before the one your wife knows about?
Marsha

Hi Dana Jo ...<p>Do these stats include people who sleep around or are promiscious?<p>Do those stats account for people that are non-IV drug users and heterosexuals that have slept with IV drug users, Bi's or homosexuals? I don't think so.<p>This stuff really upsets me .... when we tell people they have a slim to nothing chance of getting HIV/AIDS because they are straight or a non-IV drug user, we're passing them false information, IMVHO.<p>Case in point:<p>My H was sleeping with a hard core IV drug user (methanphetamine), when we reconciled I insisted he get tested. He went to the clinic and they sent him back home telling him because he was a STRAIGHT heterosexual and did not take drugs, he was NOT at risk. <p>I called them and reemed them. They were all the way wrong. And they admitted they were wrong.<p>People take this kind of information and believe it to be fact. It's not. <p>I can't believe these stats are not including the idea that those NON-IV Drug Users and Heterosexuals can sleep with someone who is infected, or they have slept with someone who is infected, or so on .... etc.<p>Here's a tree:<p>Gay (HIV infected)George sleeps with Bi -Jenny.<p>Bi-Jenny sleeps with Bi-John.<p>Bi-John sleeps with Straight married Mary<p>Straight Mary sleeps with her straight H Glen.<p>Mary and Glen get HIV. (they are both heterosexuals and are NOT IV drug users)<p>Jo<p>[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Fair enuf marsha<p>
Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
In marshas case she is risking death with this man, that is not a trivial circumstance. He lied to her (by ommission at least) re who he was to trick her into marriage, and I doubt very seriously this is his first affair,<p>SnL,
When you had your affair you were risking your life also. <p>snl...Yes I know. But I assessed the truthfullness of the woman I fell in love with, and I believed her re her sexual history. However, as many point out, and I agree, this is not so simple. I do not know her H sexual history, nor the history of the one other sexual experience she had as a teen. I had no reason to believe there was much risk, neither her or I had been with anyone but our spouse in 20 years, and both out spouses were virgins when we married. In any event had I the slightest inkling there was any homosexual history would have been a very different story. Keep in mind she trusted me too, and I didn't lie to her.<p>marsha...He didn't trick me into marriage. <p>snl...You knew he was bisexual? If not, he tricked you by witholding this information. He may claim he didn't know, I don't believe it, everyone knows who they are attracted too, and denial to self does not constitute an acceptable defense in my book.<p>marsha...Who are you to seriously doubt that my husband hasn't had previous affairs? <p>snl...I am going with statistics. Being married 15 years before acting on his homosexual urges would be unlikely. Don't you see how far out this is marsha? Having his first homosexual experience after 15 years of marriage is so farfetched. I suspect he has had regular encounters, ask him, decide for yourself how truthful his response appears.<p>marsha..Did you have previous affairs before the one your wife knows about?<p>snl...That is a tricky question. Yes and no. My w and I were both virgins when we started a physical relationship at 23 yo. I started it with the intent, and said so, we were gonna get married (I had already asked her, she was not ready). We subsequently broke up, I slept with 2 other woman in a promiscuous manner...had no intention of marrying them (and no, I am not proud of that, I used em). I did not like how promiscuity made me feel about myself, and I still felt "married" to my w. We ended up getting married, but I revealed all the details to her first, and was tested for std's before I ever touched her again. I consider that an affair of sorts, we may not have been married on paper, but I had made promises I broke. However in 23 years of marriage I never so much as looked at ow. We were emotionally withdrawn, essentially divorced (the psychological consequence of marital withdrawal). I met someone, made friends, and it developed into an affair, which we voluntarily ended (to deal with out marriages) and now much each deal with, but the feelings have not changed, only the responsible choices. I am not going to defend affairs, they have a lot of trouble associated with them, but they are about (in the primal sense) loving and bonding, the same things that get us married in the first place. The experience has made me certain I would not allow myself to get in such a position again. Somehow I don't think homosexual lust quite works that way.<p>I can understand your reluctance to take action, and your desire not to write off a 15 year relationship. I have no desire to distress you. By all means defend your H, and ignore my thoughts. But I would be doing you a disservice not to represent the pragmatic point of view, and the one most likely to be true (statisitically speaking). I don't think your H is an evil man, but he is a very confused and weak man, he had no business subjecting another human being to this, and it is his actions I am judgeing. IMO if he really cared about you at all, he would immediately divorce you, set you free, and let you choose to remarry him after sufficient time has passed for you to assess what trying to be married to a bisexual means. Personally I don't think a bisexual is psychologically suited to be married to anyone, but then again I don't think heterosexual sex addicts should be either, or sociopaths, and quite a few other personality disorders. In any event, I do hope it all works out for you, and please understand I do not bear your H any personal illwill.

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

ah yes btdt you are correct, now can you tell me with absolute certainty when a given individual is sinning? I suspect many married people are sinning too.....with each other, that would have to be true, or there is no such thing as freewill. God is not concerned with legalism, or our secular practices, He is concerned with, and knows what is in our hearts....and one thing I have learned through all this, is love (marital love, not caring love) is not a decision, spiritually speaking.

Read the newspapers, SnL (from 1990). HIV is not a homosexual disease anymore!

I won't get into the debate over the risks of STD's/HIV from heterosexual vs. homosexual partners. The point is whether Marsha should
work on her marriage or get out. <p>The fact that her H is bisexual and lied to her about it is an issue she has to reconcile for herself. As BS's, we all believe we can meet (or at least want the chance to meet) our WS's needs, both emotional & physical, that the OP is meeting. However, when a WS has a need(s) to be with someone of the same sex, how can the BS ever meet that need(s)? They can't. IMO, if your spouse has a need of this magnitude, that you can never fulfill simply due to gender & physiology, how can you continue in that marriage? Do you encourage them to get that need met outside the marriage knowing you can't meet it? Do you hope that need will go away? These are the real questions. <p>The risk of AIDS/HIV/STD's is there in any extramarital relationship, only the magnitude of that risk varies.<p>sad dad

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Hi Dana Jo ...<p>Do these stats include people who sleep around or are promiscious?<p>Do those stats account for people that are non-IV drug users and heterosexuals that have slept with IV drug users, Bi's or homosexuals? I don't think so.<p>This stuff really upsets me .... when we tell people they have a slim to nothing chance of getting HIV/AIDS because they are straight or a non-IV drug user, we're passing them false information, IMVHO.<p>
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey Jo,<p>Heterosexuals who slept with IV drug users or bisexuals WOULD be in the high risk group as I indicated above and would be at a higher risk. Not so with hetero to hetero.<p>The fact remains that it is pretty hard for your average heterosexual to get AIDS - much easier to get hit by lightning. In fact, the odds are 1 in 5 million without a condom and 1 in 50 million for condom users. However, a single act of anal sex with an infected partner or a single injection with an AIDS-tainted needle carried a 1 in 50 chance of infection. Of all reported AIDS cases, 83 percent are homosexuals and intravenous drug users. <p>The CDC DID initially GROSSLY exaggerate the risk of AIDS to the heterosexual population [to their detriment, sadly] in an effort to drum up support for federal funding. They could only do that by creating a SCARE campaign in the heterosexual community, which was largely successful. This gross exaggeration was exposed in 1996 by Congressional Research Services.<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

Hehe....Old SNL can't win can he? Well I apologize folks, but I wholeheartedly agree with many of his points. <p> Yes, SIN is SIN. No doubt about it. Adultery is the only excuse for divorce, condoned by God. Homosexuality is an abomination unto God. Call me a preacher if you want, that is fine by me. Think me one of those nutcase religous freaks that mainstream America look to silence. That's fine too. <p> Fact is you can catch Aids from gay or straight, nobody would doubt this is true. I only ask what snl attempts to point out...Which group of the two is more likely to have sex with numerous people? (And even though my own wife has been caught in at least 2 EMAs, I would still bet the gay person would be in more relationships than the straight)<p> The only advice for anyone whose spouse has been in an affair is to see to it they get tested for stds. And then be tested yourself. <p> I don't think anyone is saying these people can't change. I am not. And I am not saying to divorce the guy as fast as you can. We all need to protect ourselves from the the possibility.<p> I will knock adultery just as fast as I will knock homosexuality. Both are wrong in Gods eyes. What the BS who lives in this situation gets is a DOUBLE whammy. And if you are any sort of a Christian, I feel VERY bad for you. If you are not a Christian, then this is of no more importance than just another affair. Like mine, like snls(even tho he is WS)And like everyone elses on this forum. But if you are a believer in God, you just got two of the most terrible hits to the stomach that you could have gotten.<p> I too wish you well Marsha. I believe your WS can change. The question is does he?<p> jd<p>[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</p>

SNL,<p>I love ya but want to throw a little cold water on you. <p>My OM told me that he did not sleep with his little chickie friend that I met...swore up and down. But he told my H (remember they are buds?) that he did get it with her! So I pressured him for the truth, since I already knew it, and he clung tight to his story until I told him straight up that he had told H and H had told me. Then he confessed that he had slept with her. So, even the ones who we 'assess' to be truthful can be lying, and convincingly at that.<p>It all goes back to there are bunches of STD's---that can be transmitted to anyone, anywhere, anytime. We all have to be careful.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jdmac1:
Think me one of those nutcase religous freaks that mainstream America look to silence. That's fine too. <p>[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>OK, I Will!!!